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Case history: Lotus 19 Monte Carlo


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#851 Michael Oliver

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 09:45

I have a photo of 964 on the start line of a hillclimb at Olivers Mount in 1964 with Phil Scragg at the wheel, so he definitely competed. He sold it to someone else, whose name I also have somewhere and I have made contact with but he couldn't remember who he sold the car to, so the trail dried up there. However, I have four appearances for John Scott-Davies in a 2.7 Lotus 19 in 1966 (Croft/Mallory/Aintree/Mallory) so perhaps he was the mystery buyer? After May 28 1966, I have nothing.

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#852 Sharman

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 10:55

I have just heard from Terry Buffum who tells me that he has only ever had two 19s, one which he assumes was 950 because it had the alloy body and the other being 957 which was originally and is fitted with the Buick engine. That car is still in the same ownership. He also knew of a basket case in Palo Alto shipped back to the UK in 1983 by either Orosco or Stephen Griswold. Any body have contact details for Orosco or Griswold fils?

#853 David Birchall

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 15:08

Steve Griswold I tracked down to Italy a few years ago-dunno if he is still there. Orosco is still in Fresno and can be contacted.

#854 Steve O'Brien

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Posted 11 April 2011 - 19:23

There is a (19) here does anyone know who it might be I have a sneeking feeling it may be John Scott- Davis
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

#855 Giraffe

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Posted 11 April 2011 - 20:52

There is a (19) here does anyone know who it might be I have a sneeking feeling it may be John Scott- Davis
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

This is a compilation of action from at least a couple of meeting including the 1966 TT. Derek Lawson's Oulton tome leads me to think it is Scotty in the Lotus 19. I am once again endeavouring to contact him, but the lead that I was given for his son Mark has dried up as he has moved on from his place of work in Australia. Hopeful that my forum lead will respond to an e-mail tho'. :cat:

#856 Steve O'Brien

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Posted 12 April 2011 - 16:48

Its just a pity there is not a couple of more laps, pretty sure it is Scotty in 964.

#857 Sharman

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 09:12

Stephen Griswold tells me that the only 19 through his hands was 959 which he restored for Tom Skouras.
Don Orosco reports that he only had one car, no mention of a basket case, he does not know the number but says it was BRG with yellow stripes, powered by 2.5 Climax, queerbox replaced by Italian gearbox presumably Colotti and reputedly maintained by Alf Francis. Don raced it in early 80s and can't recall to whom it was sold

Edited by Sharman, 17 April 2011 - 09:15.


#858 David Birchall

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 14:34

I just recalled that John Streets who lives in the Silicone Valley had a "basket case" nineteen-he also had the Twelve that is now raced in the UK.

ps Where did you find Steve Griswold?

edit: The Orosco car was featured in the major article on Nineteens in the Steve Earl publication "Vintage Racer" in the early eighties-the article was reported on at length earlier in this thread.

Edited by David Birchall, 17 April 2011 - 14:37.


#859 Giraffe

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 14:54

This 19 that Harry later owned is I believe now owned by Paul Matty. However Steve tells me that Harry had a huge accident in it at Silverstone and it caught fire burning out. Furthermore he tells me that he stood in the wreck when it returned home and deemed it completely unsalvageable...........................


The Harry O'Brien car was purchased from Chris Smith by Paul Matty. Whilst visiting Paul ten days ago, I asked him about the 19. He told me that it was still undergoing restoration and told me that it was in such a sorry state when he received it that "virtually everything needed replacing". He also told me that there was some controversy surrounding the purchase of the car by Chris in that Steve O'Brien retained the steering wheel. Is it possible that Steve ownes more of the original car that Paul Matty currently does? :blush: Steve??? :cat:


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#860 Steve O'Brien

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 16:54

Yes I did have the steering wheel for many years for the life of me I cant remember the name of the person who bought it is there a Lotus restorer called Brotherwood or simler, had to laugh when I read this" that it was in such a sorry state when he received it that "virtually everything needed replacing" im sure it did must have took a while just to find the skip it was in from 45 years ago , as I said in an earler post there was nothing worth saving from that car after the fire if it had'nt melted it was bent Steve

#861 Michael Oliver

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 12:04

The Harry O'Brien car was purchased from Chris Smith by Paul Matty. Whilst visiting Paul ten days ago, I asked him about the 19. He told me that it was still undergoing restoration and told me that it was in such a sorry state when he received it that "virtually everything needed replacing". He also told me that there was some controversy surrounding the purchase of the car by Chris in that Steve O'Brien retained the steering wheel. Is it possible that Steve ownes more of the original car that Paul Matty currently does? :blush: Steve??? :cat:

All I will say is that you need to be very careful before presenting information like the comments above relating to the history of this entity. Reproducing what you have been told in a public forum is never a good idea as it tends to give authenticity and credence to things which are not deserving of it.

I look forward to seeing the 'before' pre-restoration photos of the car as bought by Kelvin Jones/Chris Smith and equally of it in the 'sorry state' and 'virtually everything needing replacing' when Paul Matty bought it...


#862 Giraffe

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 12:33

All I will say is that you need to be very careful before presenting information like the comments above relating to the history of this entity. Reproducing what you have been told in a public forum is never a good idea as it tends to give authenticity and credence to things which are not deserving of it.

I look forward to seeing the 'before' pre-restoration photos of the car as bought by Kelvin Jones/Chris Smith and equally of it in the 'sorry state' and 'virtually everything needing replacing' when Paul Matty bought it...


I'm not disputing the heritage of this Lotus for one moment Michael. Both Steve O'Brien and Paul Matty have confirmed that it needed / needs alot of attention before it is presentable enough to run again which I am told it will do this year.

For reference tho', I repeat DCN's mantra:

The classic and historic car world is riven with self-serving deception - and also self-serving self-deception. In truth the actual history of any artefact is never within the gift of any, inevitably temporary, owner. There was an early Lotus sports-racing car, sold to the US, returned years later as a bent and battered relic, and then 'restored' basically by having its chassis frame replaced by new. The owner of the time later sold the discarded original frame into other hands, while specifying that "the history does not go with this frame". In other words he attempted to specify that "the history" of the car and its American ownership would only "go" with the recreated car, assembled around the replacement, approximately one year-old, chassis frame.

This is fundamentally indefensible nonsense. The history of the original, discarded, now-sold chassis frame is utterly indelible, and plainly remains so until the day that the last vestige of that structure is finally melted down or corrodes away. Some things are not within the gift of mere man, and this is one of them. As for chassis plates - schmassis plates - a minor consideration in the factual scheme of things.



IMHO this Lotus 19 has alot more credibility than many other cars out there.


#863 Allen Brown

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 12:47

Tony, I think you may be missing Michael's point. Before we get into the validity or otherwise of a rebuilt car, let's see the pictures of it before it was restored.

#864 Giraffe

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 12:56

Tony, I think you may be missing Michael's point. Before we get into the validity or otherwise of a rebuilt car, let's see the pictures of it before it was restored.


Well Chris Smith did a good job of that when recovering Barrie Smith's old Chevron B8 (which incidentally was sold on to Joe Singer at FS Racing who completed the restoration in the end) so I feel confident he will have done the same with the Lotus.

http://www.chevronra....com/b8/b8.html


#865 Michael Oliver

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 13:13

Tony, I think you may be missing Michael's point. Before we get into the validity or otherwise of a rebuilt car, let's see the pictures of it before it was restored.

Yes, sorry Tony, I didn't make it clear which bit of your post I was referring to. I actually meant the first sentence of your post. Steve O'Brien certainly hasn't validated the car by any stretch, as he has made it more than clear several times in this thread that there was nothing left TO restore... Chris Smith didn't do the work on the car, to the best of my knowledge this was carried out by Kelvin Jones, who posted very early in this thread but mysteriously stopped - I suggest you go back and read through the thread where it should become fairly obvious as to why. There are photos of the car taken several years ago in his workshops - which may even have been posted on this thread - and I would be amazed if there was anything that needed so much as a polish, it all looked like it was brand new, absolute immaculate. As Allen says, let's see the 'before' photos. After all, no restorer of any credibility would consider trying to restore such a car without taking some 'before' photographs, would they? These are the sort of things that need to be properly documented to avoid any speculation as to its provenance.


#866 Steve O'Brien

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 20:25

One thing's for sure - there might not actually be MORE Lotus 19s around right now than were ever built in period, but for darned sure SOME of the 'Lotus 19s' around now are not ACTUALLY any of the Lotus 19s built in period.... :cool:

DCN

I think Doug sumed it up in 2004 , Steve.

Edited by Steve O'Brien, 19 April 2011 - 20:25.


#867 Ted Walker

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Posted 20 April 2011 - 06:12

One things for sure. There will be NO before restoration shots.

#868 Red Socks

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Posted 20 April 2011 - 06:52

For reference tho', I repeat DCN's mantra:

The classic and historic car world is riven with self-serving deception - and also self-serving self-deception. In truth the actual history of any artefact is never within the gift of any, inevitably temporary, owner. There was an early Lotus sports-racing car, sold to the US, returned years later as a bent and battered relic, and then 'restored' basically by having its chassis frame replaced by new. The owner of the time later sold the discarded original frame into other hands, while specifying that "the history does not go with this frame". In other words he attempted to specify that "the history" of the car and its American ownership would only "go" with the recreated car, assembled around the replacement, approximately one year-old, chassis frame.

This is fundamentally indefensible nonsense. The history of the original, discarded, now-sold chassis frame is utterly indelible, and plainly remains so until the day that the last vestige of that structure is finally melted down or corrodes away. Some things are not within the gift of mere man, and this is one of them. As for chassis plates - schmassis plates - a minor consideration in the factual scheme of things.



Pace Mr Nye but this hypothesis fails in the English language which Mr Nye earns his living using.
The owner of this car-temporary or not he is the owner of the entity-made a concious decision in Doug's words to ''replace '' the chassis. At that point the rightful owner legitimately considered the new entity the car. He has ''replaced'' a mere component -no component from spark plug to engine, transmission or indeed chassis is the car - it is an entity whose wholeness at a given point is the car.To take a discarded, indeed ''replaced'' chassis hang off it a complete set of parts-old or new-and announce that it is the car is not tenable.

Edited by Red Socks, 20 April 2011 - 06:53.


#869 Sharman

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Posted 20 April 2011 - 09:29



[/i]

Pace Mr Nye but this hypothesis fails in the English language which Mr Nye earns his living using.
The owner of this car-temporary or not he is the owner of the entity-made a concious decision in Doug's words to ''replace '' the chassis. At that point the rightful owner legitimately considered the new entity the car. He has ''replaced'' a mere component -no component from spark plug to engine, transmission or indeed chassis is the car - it is an entity whose wholeness at a given point is the car.To take a discarded, indeed ''replaced'' chassis hang off it a complete set of parts-old or new-and announce that it is the car is not tenable.
[/quote]
Tenable or not, it surely buggers history up when somebody gets hold of that which has been replaced, and probably, because it is knackered, makes another part to replace it and then claims to have the original.

#870 Allen Brown

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Posted 20 April 2011 - 18:12

Here we go again.

Both Mr Nye and Mr Socks have well established views on this subject and both views are intellectually rigorous and logically argued. But the paradox between them cannot be resolved. The "fundamentalist Nye position" is that a car can be wrecked, the discarded monocoque hung on a nightclub wall for many decades and then later, when it is taken down and built up into a car with a wealth of new components, it is the same car. The "fundamentalist Socks position" is that every component of a car can be replaced over and over, including the monocoque, and car remains the same car. In between those extreme black-and-white positions, there are infinite shades of grey in which philosophers have spent many a happy hour - ever since Theseus sailed his ship back into Athens (qv).

We have gone through this time and again and I stand by my position that neither view is wrong. I have written dossiers for two cars that effectively share the same identity - one, the Nyeist car, contains a good proportion of the original components or at least components of the chassis and body that appear original and the other, the Socksist car, has a continuous history all the way back but has had all its components replaced over its long and busy life, including its chassis. I managed to write both dossiers using pretty much the same text and was able to satisfy both owners equally (yet neither of them entirely).

Although a devoted student of Nyeism for many decades, I am increasingly Socksist on this particular issue.

When this situation arises - i.e. when a car get a new chassis - I think there is a lot of sense in the Socksist rule that You Can Only Sell The Same Car Once. So if a man buys an old racing car and replaces all its parts during 20 years of use, he then has one complete car with all new parts and one pile of original components. If he sells the complete car to one person and the components to another, you have to ask him The Socksist Question. He bought the car only once - so who did he sell it to? Where has the identity gone? Did it go with the new car or did it stay with the original chassis. We can argue which way it went but it can't go both ways. To buy a car once and sell it twice is cloning and is going to get the owner into a whole lot of trouble sooner or later.

The answer is, if you install a new chassis in a car, make sure you sell the original chassis along with the car. And if you acquire an original chassis when you buy a rebuilt car, keep it with the car. When you sell the chassis and the car to different people, it's going to get ugly.

#871 Giraffe

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Posted 20 April 2011 - 18:50

When you sell the chassis and the car to different people, it's going to get ugly.


As time passes, I'm finding myself encountering an increasing number of individuals who are deficient in the good looks department. :well:


#872 RA Historian

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Posted 20 April 2011 - 20:27

Like a cell dividing and redividing itself, the chain progresses and more cells appear. How many cars are "out there" that have claims on the same identity? E.G.: Lola A is crashed. It is rebuilt with a new tub, but retains original suspension and other running gear. But the crashed tub is sold, pounded back into shape, and new suspension parts, etc, are tacked on. So now we have two Lolas, B and C, if you will, both claiming to be Lola A. Who is right? Which has the true claim? The Nyeists or the Socksists? A conundrum that I am afraid will never be solved to anybody's complete satisfaction.

An example of the retention of the original frame is the state of the Scarab sports racer, chassis number three, that was damaged in the roll over crash at Laguna Seca last August. The original frame was so damaged in a garage fire in the early sixties that the car never raced again. The Collier Museum, upon purchasing the car a dozen or more years ago, built a replica frame so that the car could be vintage raced. But, and this is important, they retained the original frame, literally hanging it on the wall. Now they are rebuilding the car, but using the original frame, so that the rebuilt Scarab, which will not be raced, will be more original than the car that the public has seen driven by the likes of Brian Redman and John Morton the past dozen years. I trust that the Collier Museum will have the good sense to completely destroy the replica frame so that the some dumpster diver does not build a "real honest to goodness Scarab" up from it and claim it to be real. We all know people out there who would do this...

Tom

#873 sblick

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Posted 20 April 2011 - 20:41

I don't know who I support here but the person with the original chassis is the person who owns the car. A person who rebuilds a chassis and then sells the old one is doing the racing world no good. Crashed chassis are repaired all the time so I understand that you need to replace it. Driving around in a car with a tube frame that hasn't been replaced in 20 or 30 years is downright dangerous and irresponsible in a track environment. A person who may have a suspect car I hope would tell us so. To me there is no shame in re-building a car just be open about it. People are less likely to be mad at you about it if you are open about it. I get smoking mad when I find out someone is not honest about the history of their car.

#874 RA Historian

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Posted 20 April 2011 - 21:17

A person who may have a suspect car I hope would tell us so. To me there is no shame in re-building a car just be open about it. People are less likely to be mad at you about it if you are open about it. I get smoking mad when I find out someone is not honest about the history of their car.

And therein lies the crux of the matter. Honesty in these matters in many cases is in small amounts indeed.

I recently have been quite active in another thread here about a person who knowingly has made and continues to make false claims about the history of his car. If he had been up front all along and was open and honest about the car, I do not see much if any problem. But instead he has chosen to continue to spread falsehoods about the car, and that has upset a lot of people who know the truth. Yep, smoking mad describes it!

Tom

#875 Red Socks

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Posted 20 April 2011 - 22:02

Bloody Hell, the day Allen refers to me as Mr Socks I know I have made it-Royal Wedding invite next!!

#876 Giraffe

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Posted 20 April 2011 - 22:13

But instead he has chosen to continue to spread falsehoods about the car, and that has upset a lot of people who know the truth. Yep, smoking mad describes it!


Tom, I have followed that story with great interest, and my feeling is that the guy has convinced himself that it's the car he would wish it to be, and nothing seems likely to persuade him otherwise. It's far from an unusual situation and I have some sympathy for him, despite the fact he's clearly wrong!


#877 Ted Walker

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 02:36

How can a car that was totally destroyed by fire and thrown into a skip by the OWNER, ever be restored ?????????

#878 Ted Walker

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 02:41

I fail to see how a car that that toally destroyed by fire and thrown into a skip by the owner can ever be restored using all new bits and retain its original identity

#879 Sharman

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 06:49

I fail to see how a car that that toally destroyed by fire and thrown into a skip by the owner can ever be restored using all new bits and retain its original identity

My point made before Ted, that a chassis frame discarded because it is knackered and then sold to another party, who, because it is knackered has to make ANOTHER to replace it cannot under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES have any claim to originality

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#880 Giraffe

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 06:54

I fail to see how a car that that toally destroyed by fire and thrown into a skip by the owner can ever be restored using all new bits and retain its original identity


It clearly cannot, and so far this car has not,......as yet......


My point made before Ted, that a chassis frame discarded because it is knackered and then sold to another party, who, because it is knackered has to make ANOTHER to replace it cannot under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES have any claim to originality


Oh yes it can make that claim, but the claim can be rejected, surely?

#881 Red Socks

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 07:32

My point made before Ted, that a chassis frame discarded because it is knackered and then sold to another party, who, because it is knackered has to make ANOTHER to replace it cannot under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES have any claim to originality

And/or title

#882 Allen Brown

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 08:39

Let's not confuse two separate issues here: authenticity and originality.

A car rebuilt with new parts can make a valid claim to be the same car and would therefore be regarded, using Jenks' old guidelines(*) as authentic but clearly it is not original. In Sharman's example, the second party's resulting car is neither original nor authentic.

As further confusion, some adverts for such cars use the phrase "original specification", meaning that they have been rebuilt back to the specification in which such cars originally raced, even if the bodywork, engine, suspension and other components that make up that specification may be brand new items made to original patterns. This says nothing about originality or of authenticity but original specification is sufficient for an HTP. Ergo, an HTP says nothing about originality or of authenticity. So if you see an advert saying "in original specification with full FIA papers", remember that there are still questions to be asked.

* Directory of Historic Racing Cars, Denis Jenkinson, Aston Publications 1987, ISBN 0946627088

#883 Peter Morley

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 09:56

I think you'll find that DCN's point was that only the original chassis actually took part in the respective events, any replacement chassis clearly didn't.
Whether you want to regard the car with replacement components as 'the car' or not is a personal choice but the facts remain the same and cannot be changed.


#884 Michael Oliver

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 21:08

I fail to see how a car that that toally destroyed by fire and thrown into a skip by the owner can ever be restored using all new bits and retain its original identity

Agreed Ted, it hasn't been restored at all, perhaps recreated is a more accurate description? I don't see how it would be possible to claim the identity that has been suggested without bullet-proof evidence in the form of detailed paperwork relating to exactly what was purchased from Harry O'Brien and when and some supporting photographic evidence of what was purchased before passing further judgement on the car in question.


#885 Steve O'Brien

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 17:22

I think you'll find that DCN's point was that only the original chassis actually took part in the respective events, any replacement chassis clearly didn't.
Whether you want to regard the car with replacement components as 'the car' or not is a personal choice but the facts remain the same and cannot be changed.

The original chassis was destroyed in the 1965 200 meeting at Silverstone when my father hit the wall at Club corner a new one was bought from Lotus it being the last "19" only "19B" chassis left.

#886 Giraffe

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 06:22

Correct on the speculation that 19-965 went from Schroeder to Finn, according to Joel with a whole bunch of other stuff. Finn sold the bits to Bill Wonder who put it together, but with cast iron Buick. Finn got it back in exchange for a Maserati engine plus, and then sold it on to Simeon Shortman who sold it to Stan Smith, who sold it to Jack Boxstrom. who sold it to yours truly in 1988. I still have it, now with an aluminum Buick V-8 and Hewland LG 400. It's in top running order and I had it for sale for some months last year through Rob Burt in Princeton NJ
By the way the ownership chain was confirmed personally by Wonder, Finn, Shortman, Smith and Boxstrom, several of which gentlemen are personally known to me in the 20 years I vintage raced an ex-works RSK Spyder in the US


This car is advertised for sale in the US in the May edition of Motor Sport.....

http://www.princeton...sic.aspx?id=203

#887 MossRules

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Posted 08 July 2011 - 13:41

Just wanted to let you guys know that the current Vintage Motorsport magazine has a full feature on the 19 vs. the Birdcage (both belonging to Carl Moore).

http://www.vintagemo...category_id=118

Joe

#888 Allen Brown

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Posted 13 July 2011 - 08:46

959 is being advertised by Fantasy Junction. A very detailed history is given which includes some information that appears to be new:
http://www.fantasyju.....ventry Climax

One of Seven Lotus 19 Chassis Supplied with the Desirable 2.5L Climax. Delivered New to Lotus Formula One Hopeful Peter Ryan.
1960 Lotus 19 2.5L Climax "Monte Carlo"
s/n MK19-959, Engine no. FPF 1221
Old English White with Green Stripes

Inspired by John Cooper's new Monaco, the rear engine Lotus 19 utilized much the same suspension, braking, and in Climax form, power plant as the highly successful Lotus 18 Formula I and Formula II package, but with a closed wheel sports racing body and chassis package. A handful of the 19s were equipped by Lotus with the desirable 2.5L Coventry Climax FPF series DOHC inline four cylinder engines which had revolutionized Grand Prix racing, winning five of eight races during the 1959 season, and eight of ten races in 1960. The innovative, Lotus built "Queerbox" transaxle was employed which, at the time was the smallest, lightest racing gearbox available for this application, boasting a sequential shift pattern and the possibility for ratio changes in under ten minutes.

When the Lotus 19 arrived in the international competition spotlight at Riverside Raceway in 1960 it "brought in a new era for sports car racing." Sterling Moss and Dan Gurney obliterated the existing track records, Gurney by over four seconds. Moss had performed the initial tests of the new Lotus in early 1960 at Silverstone where he eclipsed the existing sports racing car track record by 1.5 seconds, just 36 days after his horrific shunt at Spa. He was still nursing two broken legs and a fractured back, but "was in good spirits after posting the time." Moss also won with the 19 at its first official race meeting in Karlskoga, Sweden in August of 1960.

Back in the United States, after mechanical difficulties had sidelined him while leading at Riverside, Moss when on to win both heats of the First Pacific races at Laguna Seca in October of 1960. Gurney went on to win at Nassau in December of 1960, finishing out an incredible first year for Lotus' new sports racing chassis.

As was traditionally the case for Lotus, production numbers for the 19 were low, and customers jockeyed for the opportunity to compete with this new, state of the art platform. Just sixteen cars would be built in total. Chassis were granted to the best sports car racing had to offer: Moss, Gurney, Maston Gregory, Innes Ireland, and in the case of this car, s/n 959, a promising young Formula One hopeful, Peter Ryan.

Peter Ryan was a Philadelphia born Canadian resident who moved to St. Jovite, Quebec, Canada to be with his Mother who owned the Mont-Tremblant ski resort. At 19 years of age, Ryan got his start in racing running a Porsche RSK during the 1959 and 1960 seasons, often nipping at the heels of Roger Penske who was impressed by this new talent.


The 1961 season proved fruitful for Ryan, driving his new Lotus 19, finishing second to Roger Penske's Maserati Birdcage at Limerock Park, before earning outright wins at St. Eugene and Mosport (ahead of Moss and Gendebien in similar 19s), and Ontario where he beat Pedro Rodriquez in his heavier and less sophisticated Ferrari.

This victory, combined with other points earned in the 1961 season won Peter Ryan the "Drive to Europe" award allowing him to head across the Atlantic for competition on the European circuit, primarily in Formula Juniors. Ryan won a Formula Junior heat during the Formula One weekend at Monaco, which caught the attention of Luigi Chinetti. Recognizing his talent, Chinetti placed Ryan in a Ferrari 248 at Sebring and Daytona, and partnered him with John Fulp in a 250 GTO for Lemans. Regretfully, at the young age of 22, Peter Ryan's life and race career were cut short when he was killed in practice for an open wheel race at Reims, France.

For the 1962 season, s/n 959 was sold to R.M. Hollingshead Company, and driven by Francis Bradley. Bradley produced a second win at Mosport, as well as a string of podium finishes (behind Maston Gregory and Pedro Rodriguez) en route to the 1962 Canadian National Championship. Dennis Coad won the 1963 Canadian National Championship in s/n 959 after a consistent string of strong outings, including a third at Mosport behind Rodriquez and Grahame Hill in the new Lotus 23.

Lotus MK19-959 saw sparse competition during the 1964 season and was put in to storage, still in its original specification, not to reemerge until 1977 when purchased by well known vintage car collector, restorer, and driver Jack Boxstrom. Shortly thereafter the car was purchased by Tom Skouras of Los Angles, who commissioned a full restoration by Griswold Co. in Berkeley, California. It was raced from 1980 to 1983 by Lou Sellyei, and was again stored from 1983 to 1987 when it was bought once more by Jack Boxtrom. It was then sold the current owner, an avid vintage racing participant and active, well regarded member of the west coast historic racing community.

Today, MK19-959 wears its original racing livery as it did when supplied to Formula One hopeful Peter Ryan. The car is professionally maintained and track supported without regards to cost and is presented in event ready trim, needing nothing beyond pre-race cursory preparation. Since rebuild by Ivan at Phil Reilly and Co, the engine has logged approximately 10 hours. Dyno results are on file for the latest engine rebuild showing 238hp at 6,700 rpm. The original Lotus "Queerbox" is included with the sale, but a more operator friendly Hewland transaxle has been installed with all the appropriate linkage changes made such that the center shift mechanism was retained. On the whole, the car is in outstanding mechanical and cosmetic condition, and has been a regular participant in prestigious historic racing venues all over the United States.

This Lotus 19 is supplied with an extensive spares package including the original Lotus transaxle, as well as a magnificent documentation file containing: an original 1961 Riverside Grand Prix program, a 1981 issue Historic Motorsports Journal with a detailed article on s/n 959, the June 1961 Car and driver road test of the Lotus 19, many period and vintage on track photos in 8x10 form, letters and notes from previous owners, a restoration photo essay, the original Lotus MK19-959 chassis plate (well worn), dyno sheets from the most recent engine rebuild in 2007, invoices for work performed by Phil Reilly and Co, as well as ownership and racing history summaries.

An uncontested, and exceedingly proper example from a golden era for international sports car racing, this marvelous Lotus is an appealing purchase for the competition-minded historic racer in search of the ultimate go-fast mount with which to compete against the multi-million dollar Maseraits, Ferraris, and Listers, as well as the preservation minded historical enthusiast looking for what is likely the most unaltered, no stories Lotus 19 2.5L Climax in existence.

Period race results for this chassis are as follows:


(Finishing, Date, Circuit, Event, Driver, Position)

July 1, 1961 Lime Rock Peter Ryan 2nd

July 1961 St. Eugene CBC Trophy Races Peter Ryan 1st

August 19, 1961 Mosport SCC Trophy Races Peter Ryan 1st

1961 Watkins Glen SCCA National Peter Ryan DNF

Sept. 30, 1961 Mosport Canadian GP Peter Ryan 1st

1961 Riverside Times-Mirror GP Peter Ryan DNF

1961 Laguna Seca SF Examiner GP Peter Ryan 8th


June 2, 1962 Green Acres LASC Great Trophy Races F. Bradley 4th

June 9, 1962 Mosport Players 200 F. Bradley 3rd

July 21, 1962 Mosport GUCC Grand Nationals F. Bradley 1st

Sept. 2, 1962 Ft. McLeod (Alberta) National Championship Race 2nd

Sept. 8, 1962 Mosport Indian Summer Trophy Races F. Bradley 2nd

Sept. 29, 1962 Mosport Canadian GP F. Bradley 3rd

1962 Canadian Racing Driving Champion - Francis Bradley, Lotus 19-959

May 4, 1963 Westwood B.C. Dennis Coad DNF

June 1, 1963 Mosport Players 200 FIA DNF

June 15, 1963 Mosport GVCC Grand Nationals Dennis Coad 1st

Sept. 7, 1963 Mosport Indian Summer Trophy Races Dennis Coad 2nd

Sept. 15, 1963 St. Eugene MMGCC Dennis Coad DNF

Sept. 28, 1063 Mosport Canadian GP Dennis Coad 3rd

1963 Canadian Racing Driving Champion - Dennis Coad, Lotus 19-959



#889 Jerry Entin

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 12:59


Here is a link to great footage showing the Lotus 19's in 1962 at Mosport Canada.
The race was called "The Player's 200".
Dan Gurney's Arciero car crewed by Jerry Eisert and Masten Gregory in the Green Lotus 19 formerly driven by Stirling Moss.

Edited by Jerry Entin, 17 July 2011 - 13:03.


#890 Manfred Cubenoggin

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 10:59

Hi, Jerry! :wave:

Oh, man! Thanks so much for posting that link to the 1962 Player's 200. I managed to see the first five minutes of it but had to abort; work calls. I'll be back later with some comments as I was there to take all this in as a 13-year old.



#891 Steve O'Brien

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 20:20

That was fantastic especially as that was my fathers old 19, chassis 953 that won it was lovely to see the old girl again brought the car to life again thankyou
Steve.

#892 Alan Cox

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 21:56

Thanks for the link to a great piece of film, Jerry, and in its entirety, too.

#893 MossRules

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Posted 20 July 2011 - 00:39

Thank you, thank you, thank you! :up:
So nice to see footage in color with sound! Lots of little details that might help me with my build.

Joe

#894 RJE

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Posted 20 July 2011 - 07:38

The sale of 959 is very interesting. However I find it strange that both Allen Brown's ORC number 888 post and more particually the Fantasy Junction description seem to omit the Vic Yachuck ownership period, I think during 1964. This is even more strange when the Fantasy Junction photographs show what I believe is a picture of the welded up broken rear upright to which I alluded earlier in this thread. Perhaps this period has been decided as just best forgotten.

#895 Allen Brown

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Posted 20 July 2011 - 09:28

... I find it strange that both Allen Brown's ORC number 888 post...


Just for the avoidance of doubt, my post 888 is entirely a reproduction of the Fantasy Junction description so that it could be retained for posterity. It is not an ORC opinion on the car.

#896 RJE

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Posted 20 July 2011 - 17:13

Accepted. I assure you no slur was intended.

#897 MossRules

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 04:59

Anyone from this thread going to the Historics at Laguna Seca this weekend? There is a 19 scheduled to race with the 5th group on Saturday. I'll be strolling the paddock on Saturday and would love to meet any fellow TNF'ers!

Joe


#898 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 06:13

Sadly, I won't be there. Yes, the 19 is Vincent Dean's. He has raced it at Seattle a couple of times, including this year. It is chassis number 963 (extensively rebuilt) with an aluminum Buick V-8. I think Vincent would be happy to talk to you about his car. Also, watch out for Sir Stirling Moss and Lady Susan. I don't he will be racing, but I think he should be there. There are some clips on youtube from today's Pebble Beach Tour d'Elegance. I think this one covers most of the cars in the tour, led, as usual, by Sir Stirling and Lady Susan, in a white 300SL roadster!



Vince H.

#899 MossRules

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 04:47

Got to talk to Vincent and his wife--great people. Apparently, Vincent had to be persuaded to buy the Lotus, as he was used to racing his 427 Cobra, but now loves the Lotus. The car is beautiful and sounds amazing with the 215-Olds. He did a pretty good job on Saturday, finishing in the middle of the field. Not bad, considering it was his first time at Laguna in the 19, and he was up against a bunch of Lola T70's with almost double the horsepower...

Joe

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#900 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 05:51

Got to talk to Vincent and his wife--great people. Apparently, Vincent had to be persuaded to buy the Lotus, as he was used to racing his 427 Cobra, but now loves the Lotus. The car is beautiful and sounds amazing with the 215-Olds. He did a pretty good job on Saturday, finishing in the middle of the field. Not bad, considering it was his first time at Laguna in the 19, and he was up against a bunch of Lola T70's with almost double the horsepower...

Joe


TNFer Mike Summers in his Lotus 23B was just ahead of Dean. Another TNFer Tony Garmey was third in the Can Am race. Race results here:

http://www.mazdarace...od/race-results

And Sir Stirling Moss drove #722 Mercedes Benz 300SLR up the ramp at Pebble Beach on Sunday.

Vince H.