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Case history: Lotus 19 Monte Carlo


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#901 RA Historian

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Posted 11 October 2011 - 23:03

Lotus 19 #965, the Mecom car, has been advertised for sale for the last two years or so by Princeton Lotus. It has disappeared from their recent magazine ad in Motor Sport, and does not appear on their web site. Does anyone know if it has been sold, and who the new owner may be?

Tom

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#902 arttidesco

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Posted 06 November 2011 - 04:14

Just spent 10 enjoyable hours trawling through this thread, thanks to every one who has contributed.

My purpose of dipping into this thread was to find out a little about the #19 car entered and driven by Baron Otto Reetz-Thott in this years Madgwick Cup at Goodwood.

If I understand this thread correctly this car carries the #'952' chassis tag originally supplied to UDT in 1961, went to Rosebud Racing Team in late 1961 early 1962, was successfully raced by Gregory and Ireland, was the first (?) and only (?) Lotus to be fitted with a Ferrari V12 motor, was involved in an incident with a course car with Ireland at the wheel, was subsequently given a new chassis with the #952 plate, found its way into the hands of the Higgins Brothers in the 1980's given a third chassis with the #952 tag and then acquired by the good Baron in 1996.

I am just left wondering if anyone has got to the bottom of which chassis '#952', reported in April as being owned by an anonymous owner based in Seattle since at least 2009, was in need of 2.0 engine mounts ?

Relevant answers maybe credited and used in a forthcoming blog.

Thanking you in anticipation of your responses.

#903 Michael Oliver

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Posted 06 November 2011 - 21:23

Just spent 10 enjoyable hours trawling through this thread, thanks to every one who has contributed.

My purpose of dipping into this thread was to find out a little about the #19 car entered and driven by Baron Otto Reetz-Thott in this years Madgwick Cup at Goodwood.

If I understand this thread correctly this car carries the #'952' chassis tag originally supplied to UDT in 1961, went to Rosebud Racing Team in late 1961 early 1962, was successfully raced by Gregory and Ireland, was the first (?) and only (?) Lotus to be fitted with a Ferrari V12 motor, was involved in an incident with a course car with Ireland at the wheel, was subsequently given a new chassis with the #952 plate, found its way into the hands of the Higgins Brothers in the 1980's given a third chassis with the #952 tag and then acquired by the good Baron in 1996.

I am just left wondering if anyone has got to the bottom of which chassis '#952', reported in April as being owned by an anonymous owner based in Seattle since at least 2009, was in need of 2.0 engine mounts ?

Relevant answers maybe credited and used in a forthcoming blog.

Thanking you in anticipation of your responses.


I may have missed something but I'm not aware of an anonymous owner of #952 in Seattle, I think that is another chassis, possibly the ex-Nethercutt car, #955. Also, I don't think that #952 acquired another chassis courtesy of the Higgins brothers, my understanding is that the Higgins Brothers started copying the chassis of #952 for a project of theirs and then had the opportunity to acquire the 'real McCoy'. I believe that this chassis that the Higgins brothers were constructing may still exist...

#904 arttidesco

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Posted 06 November 2011 - 23:05

Thanks for clarrifying the higgins bros involvement Micheal ref the #952 in Seattle I was refering to post 888 2 pages back http://forums.autosp...a...t&p=4905566 so that was actually 955 thanks again for the clarrification :up:

#905 David Birchall

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 00:50

The ex Nethercutt 955 has been owned by the same guy in Seattle for many years-since about 1980. He prefers to remain anonymous but I have met him and seen the car and his correspondence is on this thread.

#906 arttidesco

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 07:16

The ex Nethercutt 955 has been owned by the same guy in Seattle for many years-since about 1980. He prefers to remain anonymous but I have met him and seen the car and his correspondence is on this thread.


Thanks David.



#907 Allen Brown

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 14:24

Competition Press, October 24, 1970

"Lotus 19, Grade 8, aeroquip, zero time new engine, girling discs, very low maintenance cost, light, competitive. Some spares. Race ready. C. Abrams, 7540 High Ave., LaJolla, Calif. 92037; (714) 454-6272."

I found current contact info for a Clem Abrams in La Jolla (near Torrey Pines, Del Mar, San Diego, etc.), presumably the same Clem Abrams who didn't qualify for the '68 Riverside Can Am in a Lotus 30.

David, do you want this one too?

Vince H.

Competition Press, November 7, 1970

"Abrams' Lotus 19 Tops Iribe's Camaro in Tijuana, Mexico

...Tijuana, Mex., Oct. 18 - Clem Abrams piloted his Lotus-Ford 19 to a win in the big-bore race at the Tijuana Auto Sport Club's Fall races here today. Abrams, who had suspension problems in practice and got in only three laps on a course he had never seen before, started at the back of the field and moved into the lead on the sixth lap. Tijuana's pride, Carlos Iribe, took the immediate lead from the pole in his TransAm Camaro, but the acceleration of the Lotus was too much. After Abrams took the lead, Iribe continue to charge until his clutch played up, and he dropped back to finish 15 seconds in arrears..."

Vince H.


Nobody seemed to pick up Vince on this one so let me add this:

Clem Abrams in ASR with a Lotus 19 at the 7-8 Nov 1970 Holtville Regionals. Source: Gridlines (San Diego SCCA newsletter) Jan 1971 p10

#908 Sharman

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 14:42

964?

#909 Michael Oliver

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Posted 10 November 2011 - 13:45

964?

No, I've tracked down and spoken to Clem and it was the ex-Causey/Schechter car, so 958.

He recalled that he sold it to a Honda motorcycle dealer in Seattle - anyone have any ideas who this might have been (remember this was early 1970s, so couldn't have been too many Honda m/c dealers in Seattle then?


#910 arttidesco

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 12:24

Many many thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread thereby inadvertently contributing to my blog on #952 :wave:

#911 Cynic2

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 22:17

I'd meant to scan this page earlier and forgot (ah, old age!); the thread coming back to the top (and the hour I spent re-reading it) motivated me to dig into my library.

This image is from Prancing Horse, the magazine of the Ferrari Club of America, issue 85 from 1987. I edited the magazine at the time. As noted, the image was provided by Jay Shaff of Dallas, Texas (a true gentleman and great friend).

The picture is taken at Victoria High School, in the Auto Mechanics area (note lettering on the door of the Ferrari 250 GTO). At least one Lotus 19, undoubtedly 952, is behind the Ferrari; from the visible fender presumably the side is lettered with the same "Victoria High School Auto Mechanics" as on the GTO. Clearly both have "WCA Chapter 300" on their fenders.

It appears that the Lotus 19 had been fitted with a Ferrari engine, from the size and shape (and location) of the opening in the rear deck; it also appears that there may not be an engine fitted (or no carburetors?) in the picture.

There is another sports-racer barely visible behind the Lotus, but from the fender shape and rear it does not appear to be another 19. Still, could it be a second car?

The photograph and magazine are copyrighted. I can grant the right for it to appear here, but not for unlimited use on the Internet. Please respect that.

David Seibert




Posted Image

Edited by Cynic2, 19 November 2011 - 22:18.


#912 arttidesco

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 01:18

Excellent pic David, interesting scoops on the bonnet of the 250 GTO too !

What is WCA Chapter 300 ?


#913 Cynic2

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 01:57

What is WCA Chapter 300 ?


Ralph,

I have absolutely no idea, and Google was not my friend (it's probably not the Women's Caucus of America, various Writers Clubs, etc.).

Sorry.

David

Edited by Cynic2, 20 November 2011 - 01:57.


#914 arttidesco

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 04:16

Ralph,

I have absolutely no idea, and Google was not my friend (it's probably not the Women's Caucus of America, various Writers Clubs, etc.).

Sorry.

David


I was wondering about how the Womens Caucus for Art might be involved ?

Are there any Texas TNFer's who can help us out ?

#915 David Birchall

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 05:04

Ah tried Wisconsin Central Airlines, Workers Compensation Alliance, Water Conservancy Area, Westchester Central Alliance, Womens Committee etc, etc

Ah think you might have to phone them:

Name: Texas Vocational Schools

Address: 1921 East Red River Street, Victoria, TX 77901

Phone: (361) 575-4768


#916 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 06:56

There is another sports-racer barely visible behind the Lotus, but from the fender shape and rear it does not appear to be another 19. Still, could it be a second car?


On the internet, this from The Victoria Advocate - Jan 2, 1966, in a review of the year 1965, "...September...Tom O'Connor Jr. donated three racing cars, a Lotus 19, a Ferrari and a Brabham to the auto mechanics class at Victoria High School..." As Allen Brown points out in oldracingcars, this was SC-5-64, which was driven by Jack Brabham in 1964. I think that is the car Steve Tillack was driving at this year's Goodwood Revival.

Vince H.


#917 bradbury west

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Posted 21 January 2012 - 20:56

This week's Sports car Digest has a period account by DSG of his win at the 1962 Daytona Continental 3 hour race in the Arciero 19. quod vide;
http://www.sportscar...ition-begins/2/
This explains what happened and how he crossed the line. Mixing metaphors, perhaps it might exorcise the myth. I understand that there is footage on You Tube.
Roger Lund
edit; see Daytona thread here;
http://forums.autosp...p;#entry5488170

Edited by bradbury west, 21 January 2012 - 20:58.


#918 willga

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 18:25

Which one?

Paste here from earlier in thread:

952
1961 UDT Laystall 2.0 Climax
1961 Team Rosebud as of Dec at Nassau (Moss)
1962 Team Rosebud 2.5 Climax fitted for win by Innes Ireland at Nassau (Source: Jerry Entin per Willem Oosthoek. Post 437)
1962-63 Team Rosebud, fitted with Ferrari engine prior to the Pacific NW Grand Prix (29Sep63), Kent Washington

’952’
1963 Rosebud replacement for 952 (Ferrari engine), raced by Ireland USA 1964
196_ Rosebud donated to the Victoria High School (Texas) auto shop
1977-1985 Charles Smith-Maxwell, purchased from the Victoria HS and brought to UK (post540)
1985 Sold to Higgins brothers, Lincolnshire (post616); raced by Bill Higgins 1994: replica built still with Ian Higgins (?)
1996 to present, Baron Otto Reedtz-Thott, Denmark now fitted w 2.0L engine. Ferrari engine still with Ian Higgins (?).


Out of interest, does anyone recall what gearbox was coupled to the Ferrari engine?

#919 arttidesco

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 18:35

Ah tried Wisconsin Central Airlines, Workers Compensation Alliance, Water Conservancy Area, Westchester Central Alliance, Womens Committee etc, etc

Ah think you might have to phone them:

Name: Texas Vocational Schools

Address: 1921 East Red River Street, Victoria, TX 77901

Phone: (361) 575-4768


I e-mailed them and never heard back :confused:

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#920 Wouter Melissen

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 16:24

We saw chassis 965 in action at Paul Ricard this weekend, repainted in its Mecom livery:

Posted Image

#921 RA Historian

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 21:11

Thanks, Wouter, I was wondering where it went after it fell off of a long running magazine ad about a year ago. I have two questions which I hope you can answer for me.
1-who owns it?
2- what engine does it have? In 1963 Mecom ran it with a two liter Climax, but in 1964 he put an aluminum Oldsmobile small block into it.

Tom

#922 Wouter Melissen

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 05:43

It was driven by Michel Thoulouze (likely the owner) and Jean-Jacques Gravier (both French). The entry booklet states it has a 3.5 litre V8. Not what kind.

#923 RA Historian

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 13:46

Thanks much, Wouter, I appreciate it.

3.5 liter V-8 indicates, to me, that it has one of the small aluminum block Buick/Oldsmobile V-8s in it, much as it did when raced by Mecom.

Tom

Edited by RA Historian, 11 October 2012 - 13:47.


#924 Michael Oliver

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 09:39

We saw chassis 965 in action at Paul Ricard this weekend, repainted in its Mecom livery:

Posted Image

Thanks Wouter, could I please ask who is listed as the owner/entrant?

#925 Wouter Melissen

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 10:18

Like I said above: It was driven by Michel Thoulouze (likely the owner) and Jean-Jacques Gravier (both French).

#926 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 01:23

In 1963 Mecom ran it with a two liter Climax


Some photos on ebay:

http://stores.ebay.c...p;_sid=39308484

Vince H.


#927 bradbury west

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 20:51

Looking through the results sheets for heat 2 and the final of the Aintree Trophy sports car race, over 1150cc, 25.7.1964 there are 2 entries for 19s, both listed at 2.7 litres. The Coundley entry I know of, but the other is for driver Brian Barton, entered by Entwistle and Walker (Bolton) Ltd. I know I cannot recall all entries for all drivers, but this one rings no bells at all.
Who were they?
Presumably the engines were some of the ones modified by Bob King's Racing Preparations firm in Alperton Viaduct, Wembley, (a regular entrant for Lanfranchi in period ISTR) who I recall offered kits.
Roger Lund

#928 Steve O'Brien

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 22:34

Looking through the results sheets for heat 2 and the final of the Aintree Trophy sports car race, over 1150cc, 25.7.1964 there are 2 entries for 19s, both listed at 2.7 litres. The Coundley entry I know of, but the other is for driver Brian Barton, entered by Entwistle and Walker (Bolton) Ltd. I know I cannot recall all entries for all drivers, but this one rings no bells at all.
Who were they?
Presumably the engines were some of the ones modified by Bob King's Racing Preparations firm in Alperton Viaduct, Wembley, (a regular entrant for Lanfranchi in period ISTR) who I recall offered kits.
Roger Lund

The Brian Bolton car was 953 fitted with a 2.5 climax my father bought this car soon after he was also in the race in his Lotus 23 (Harry O;Brien)

#929 bradbury west

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 07:11

Thanks, Steve.
RL

#930 Ted Walker

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 07:40

The same car as now owned by Paul Matty Ha Ha Joke !!!!!!!!!!!

#931 Sharman

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 07:59

The same car as now owned by Paul Matty Ha Ha Joke !!!!!!!!!!!

What goes around comes around ):

#932 D-Type

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 13:08

~
Presumably the engines were some of the ones modified by Bob King's Racing Preparations firm in Alperton Viaduct, Wembley, (a regular entrant for Lanfranchi in period ISTR) who I recall offered kits.
Roger Lund


Interesting. I wondered how the two special engines produced by Coventry Climax for Cooper's Indianapolis foray proliferated. Now I know!

Edited by D-Type, 31 October 2012 - 13:09.


#933 David McKinney

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 20:27

The two Indianapolis engines raced in the NZ and Australian internationals in early 1962, but already Rob Walker had had one built up and the Bowmaker team another (or two). The proliferation started that early...

#934 Steve O'Brien

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 22:08

The same car as now owned by Paul Matty Ha Ha Joke !!!!!!!!!!!

Hahaha I like that.

Edited by Steve O'Brien, 31 October 2012 - 22:09.


#935 Giraffe

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 22:12

The same car as now owned by Paul Matty Ha Ha Joke !!!!!!!!!!!



Hahaha I like that.


Well I suppose if it's good enough for him, that's good enough for him.

Edited by Giraffe, 31 October 2012 - 22:18.