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Case history: Lotus 19 Monte Carlo


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#51 T54

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Posted 02 April 2004 - 21:41

I did not get this from Mr. Gurney yesterday morning, I got the straight scoop from him in 1971. In 1982, since we were testing at Daytona (in private), I took our Lincoln rent-a-pile at exactly the spot, and on front of plenty of witnesses (Sam Posey being one), I put the car in neutral, turned the wheel oh so slightly, and...the car rolled across the line.

That you do not believe the man himself is fine, that you believe in the tooth fairy is also fine, but you still have to explain how you are going to move a car with a stuck engine with a starter motor. That, I am REALLY curious to know.

T54 :confused:

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#52 xkssFrankOpalka

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Posted 02 April 2004 - 21:49

I think Im sorry I brought it up!!! :confused:

#53 Doug Nye

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Posted 02 April 2004 - 21:53

Isn't it rather a pity that such a sharp tone should be adopted by our new contributor?

WINO - you really are very welcome here and absolutely welcome to express your knowledge, views and opinions, but matters which could quite probably be expressed verbally without offering any special offence take on a decidedly harsher edge when viewed and absorbed in harsh print ...

If that rather nasty edge is not really intended, you're amongst friends - if it is entirely intentional I think you're in the wrong place mate... Some other blokes here know the subject just as well.... :confused:

DCN

#54 T54

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Posted 02 April 2004 - 22:12

Ooops,
I did not mean to be rude in any way and I am sorry if I sounded this way. WINO, we are just friendly arguing here. It is not that important! :wave:

But phakts R phakts... :)

T54

#55 WINO

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Posted 02 April 2004 - 22:30

T54,

I think Doug's comments was more aimed at me then at you! If my e-mails seemed overly harsh [as per Doug] I apologize, as they were not meant to be that way. Call it the heat of a passionate discussion.

But while we are at it, I have trouble with your emperical evidence of using a Lincoln [was it the heavy Continental?] in trying to replicate the supposed feat of a featherweight Lotus 19. Did you cross the lane in doing so? Did you get any closer to the lane a car length past the finish, not necessarily a Lincoln car length of course. Plus, the story seems to take a dramatic turn, literally, from a cavalier "the car just turning left" to the most minuscule degree of leftness, not witnessed on any photographs.

Doug,

Good to hear from you. Call me a cynic and I know there are other experts, but I wil stick to my facts.


Cheers,

WINO

#56 Manfred Cubenoggin

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Posted 02 April 2004 - 22:41

Jimmy Clark was entered in an American-owned Lotus 19 for the Player's 200 at Mosport in 1963. The car failed scrutineering. Poorly prepared, IIRC. Jimmy drove a Lotus 23 instead belonging to the celebrated, Al Pease.

Question is: Who's car was this? What's the story behind such an unusual DNS?

#57 dbw

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Posted 02 April 2004 - 22:45

can someone post the photographs so we all can look?? :blush:

#58 WINO

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Posted 02 April 2004 - 23:15

Manfred,

Jimmy Clark was originally supposed to drive the former Harrison Special/Ford, then owned by Charlie Kolb. The Harrison Special was a Zerex Special look-alike, using some of the chassis tubes of the original Harrison Lotus 19/Climax. Body by Troutman-Barnes and powered by a 289 Ford. The car was very successful in its 1962 Harrison days, with Lloyd Ruby at te wheel, but here it was not prepared very well. So the Mosport organizers refused the car.

WINO

#59 Don Capps

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Posted 03 April 2004 - 00:27

Originally posted by WINO
The reason I don't believe Dan Gurney in this particular case is that his version does not jive with photographic evidence. I have interviewed many race drivers and car owners of the fifties and sixties and in a fair number of times they claim things that are just not true. Selective memories, confusion about races and positions and sometimes: purely things that just don't make sense based on the facts.

Obviously you are entitled to your opinion, but I stick to historically correct versions of motor sport history.


Originally posted by WINO
If you can't wait that long, there is a finish photo in the May 1962 issue of Today's Motorsport. Straight as an arrow, still in the high lane, with the rear wheels about to cross the line. WINO


WINO,

Well, we ol' dumbass mules have dragged a plow down this Daytona furrow a time or two -- along with a few others furrows, and it just might well be that we'll not as smart as you, being but mere mules yoked to the harness dedicated to plowing Clio's motor racing furrows. We also try to be polite mules as we go about our often thankless task of plowing those furrows for others.

I happen to have a copy of the May 1962 issue Today's Motor Sports on the desk beside me with it open to page 40; in addition, I have the May 1962 issue of Car and Driver open to page 56.

The picture at the top of page 40 shows the Lotus sitting with its nose against the wall with Gurney standing next to it and chatting with someone on the other side of the fence. There is very little space between the car and the wall, Gurney being just even with the rear wheelwell. This indicates that the car is at an angle. The distance between the nose of the Lotus and the finish line is scarcely more than the length of the Lotus (about 11 ft 9 in), say perhaps another two and a half feet.

The second picture shows Gurney back into the cockpit and the car scarcely a foot, it seems, from the finish line. Looking at the distance between the side of the Lotus and the line on the track, it is clearly less than it was in the first picture.

The picture in C/D pn page 56 shows the Lotus with the front tires actually on the finish line, the nose long past the line.

The third photograph on page 40 shows the Lotus with its rear wheels just short of crossing the line.

By the way, I will gladly scan these pictures and send then to anyone who might wish to post them here.

Any rate, that Gurney did indeed grind the starter motor is not an issue -- there seems to be evidence that he did. In the second picture on page 40 in TMS it appears that his hand is poised on the starter switch.

So, given the very short distance needed to be covered when the time expired, perhaps 1-2 ft/ 30-60 cm, it is entirely within the realm of possibility that gravity played the role that Gurney said it did -- it would not take much more than a release of the brakes and the slightest tilt of the wheel to the left on the banking to enable the car to cross the line and coast its length almost parallel to the line on the track.

The Prestolite battery was engaged to give the notion that the car was crossing the line under its own power -- although the CSI regulation in question perhaps only referred to the car being pushed across the finishing line.

To change metaphors: there will be a chorus of "Amen, brother!" when I state that I am merely a butter knife in the steak knife with this crowd. I have learned to tolerate the taste of crow pretty well, having tasted enough of it over the years here. I could be wrong about what happened at Daytona 42 years ago -- it could be that miracles indeed happen and Coventry Climax provided one. However, the truth is rarely pure and never simple as Wilde reminds us.



WINO, please, understand that we at TNF here have a genuine desire to "get it right." We have debunked more myths and tarnished more legends than even we realize over the years. We kick over the rocks, peer into holes, wonder why the dog didn't bark, generally look at things, "do the math," and then let things fall where they may. We try to disagree without being disagreeable and not become difficult over our differences. Amazingly, we all seem to get along and have established some sort of collaborative reseach tool that actually works and -- with the assistance of folks like yourself -- which just keeps getting better and better.

Welcome aboard.

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#60 WINO

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Posted 03 April 2004 - 00:28

Perhaps this is the appropriate time to see how many Lotus 19s were actually built, determining whom were the original owners. I have never been able to add up more than 12 cars, purely based on appearances during 1960/61/62, but if the chassis number sequence is any indication, there should have been at least 17:

- chassis 950 BRP/UDT Laystall [the first]
- chassis 966 Pacesetter car of Dan Gurney, although named differently at Nassau 1963, reputedly its first race.

That leaves 17 chassis numbers to determine. How about it giving it a first go, Doug!


WINO

#61 David Birchall

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Posted 03 April 2004 - 01:11

Cor! I don't check TNF for two days and WW3 breaks out!

I am sure there is a register of 19s on the Club Lotus site-I'm just too lazy to look. :smoking:

#62 xkssFrankOpalka

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Posted 03 April 2004 - 02:27

There was a Lotus 19 who belonged to a friend of mine, Tom Tyrell from the Chicago region SCCA. Cant remember where he bought it, maybe Dave Causey, it had a 2 liter FPF.

#63 T54

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Posted 03 April 2004 - 03:35

can someone post the photographs so we all can look??



Actually I saw a FILM of it not too long ago on Speedvision before it became "Speed". I remember clearly that the car steered, went into a slight angle and gently crossed the line. Just like my big Lincoln did... :cool:

T54

#64 dbw

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Posted 03 April 2004 - 05:15

well i guess that about wraps it up.... :rolleyes:

#65 Doug Nye

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Posted 03 April 2004 - 08:34

One thing's for sure - there might not actually be MORE Lotus 19s around right now than were ever built in period, but for darned sure SOME of the 'Lotus 19s' around now are not ACTUALLY any of the Lotus 19s built in period.... :cool:

DCN

#66 WINO

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Posted 03 April 2004 - 14:16

Frank,

Dave Causey raced his Lotus 19 -much modified and with a 289 Ford V8- as late as 1965. He bought it in 1962 with 2.5 Climax. The 19 that Tom Terrell raced was a relatively unmolested 2-liter Climax version, so they could not have been the same car. At the tim the only 2-liter Lotus 19 in the US was the one of the John Mecom stable and I always presumed that Terrell bought it from Mecom, perhaps via a middleman.

WINO

#67 RAP

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Posted 04 April 2004 - 13:36

As nobody else has responded to Wino's suggestion of trying to identify the original 19s, here is something for those more knowledgable than I to shoot at -

950 BRP
951 Arceiro Bros
952 BRP
953 BRP
954 Frank Harrison
955 Jack Nethercutt
956 ?
957 Tom Carstens then Jerry Grant
958 ?
959 ?
960 ?
961 ?
962 Rod Carveth
963 Comstock Canada ?
964 John Coundley
965 Mecom (2.0 litre)
966 Gurney

950 -957 appear to have been delivered during 1961, 962 - 965 during 1962 and 966 in 1963.

Somewhere the car used by Harry Zweifel in European hill climbs needs to fit in.

One odd thing is that chassis numbers 950 and 951 are also attributed to Lotus 24 F1 cars in 1962 by Sheldon and Doug Nye's book Theme Lotus.

Corrections and additions eagerly anticipated !!

#68 WINO

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Posted 04 April 2004 - 15:36

Many thanks RAP! An interesting list indeed. Let's go through it.

Looking at the race reports only two Lotus 19s were raced in 1960: Moss's BRP and Gurney's Arciero cars, so 950 and 951 are probably correct.

In 1961 BRP showed up with 3 cars in the April Aintree 200 supporting race [identified as UDT Cooper Monacos in Autosport by their correspondents Chris Nixon and Patick McNally, oh dear], so 952 and 953 are probably correct as well, as there were no other 19s that early in the season.

I doubt that Frank Harrison had 954, as that car did not show up until practice for Daytona Feb 1962 [remember that famous starter motor finish, with Gurney holding his lane and defying gravity], where Lloyd Ruby was a DNS. Same with Jack Nethercutt, who did not race his 19 until well into 1962. But then Lotus may not have followed a logical sequence in chassis numbers.

The only other 19 in North America in 1961 was Peter Ryan in the Comstock car, which I have as number 959. I also have Harry Zweifel in number 956.

You list Rod Carveth in chassis 962, but according to Carveth he had 964. This leaves us first-time owners Tom Carstens [I think 957], Roy Schechter, Dave Causey, John Mecom [how sure are you about 965?], John Coundley [was he really a first-time buyer by then?] and Gurney [definitely 966].

WINO

#69 WINO

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Posted 04 April 2004 - 15:58

I stand corrected on Jack Nethercutt, who entered his 19 as early as October 1961 in the Times GP, without participating. The Lotus may not have been delivered in time. Have Jack an the Lotus 19 for 3 short laps at Nassau 1961 [his maiden race in the car?]

WINO

#70 Roger Clark

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Posted 04 April 2004 - 16:26

Originally posted by WINO


In 1961 BRP showed up with 3 cars in the April Aintree 200 supporting race [identified as UDT Cooper Monacos in Autosport by their correspondents Chris Nixon and Patick McNally, oh dear],

At least they apologised the following week, which is more than they would do now:

Unable to explain his mistake, the writer of the report was sent to a psychoanalyst, where his awful secret was revealed. It seems that he is a part-time member of the Onassis set, and from his yacht Monaco and Monte Carlo appear to be exactly the same. Suffering from a severe case of the dreaded Mediterannean lurgi, he has been sent on the Tulip Rally for a rest cure.

and some of us wonder where Patrick McNally got his money from!.

#71 WINO

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Posted 04 April 2004 - 16:41

Missed that correction by McNally in the next issue, Roger! Thanks.

Another matter: I just got off the phone with Jerry Eisert, chief mechanic of Gurney's Arciero Lotus 19 at Daytona 1962, before Frank Harrison lured him away for a much higher salary.

Jerry can be seen in various finish photos, urging Dan on from the infield, while the 19 crosses the finish line. He confirmed the fact that the Lotus did so on its starter motor and that no gravity was involved [but then the finish photos proved that already]. Jerry mentioned how the car was impounded after the race, because the officials wanted to know if the engine was in working condition when it crossed the line. In spite of a rod stiking through the block, Eisert did a reverse rotation to prove that the car had finished under its own power.

WINO

#72 dbw

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Posted 04 April 2004 - 17:09

well,i guess that about wraps it up. :rolleyes:

#73 David Birchall

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Posted 04 April 2004 - 17:10

Originally posted by Doug Nye
One thing's for sure - there might not actually be MORE Lotus 19s around right now than were ever built in period, but for darned sure SOME of the 'Lotus 19s' around now are not ACTUALLY any of the Lotus 19s built in period.... :cool:

DCN



I don't recall the chassis # of the car delivered to Bob Colubosian of New York but it was delived to him without engine and he fitted a 3.5 Buick motor. This car subsequently became the first "McKee" Can Am car now with the rear of the chassis modified, a McKee transaxle and a Ford 289 installed with new bodywork. The car was aquired by a close friend, John Maycock of Vancouver, in the mid eighties and John, as an engineer, commenced a meticulous rebuild to Lotus 19 specs. He replaced: The chassis (manufactured in Seattle), the suspension A arms (ditto Seattle), the body, the transmission, the engine (with a 305 Rover), fitted new tires for him. John learned how to operated a lathe very successfully and made his own patterns for having dry-sump equipment cast which he then machined. The car was assembled by Jim Brokensha to concours standards and John gave me a contract to sell it for him at the end of the eighties-never having raced it. I was never that enthusiastic about it and eventually he sold it privately. I note that most of this history is "Forgotten" now that the car is up for sale again.
Regards, David B

#74 WINO

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Posted 04 April 2004 - 17:29

David,

I completely forgot that Bob Columbosian had a Buick-engined Lotus 19 as well, probably because the car never did very much. In terms of the conversion to a McKee car, did it become the 1965 Peregrine/Ford of Dan Gerber? This always looked like a converted 19 to me.

WINO

#75 RAP

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Posted 04 April 2004 - 17:31

Re Colubosian, my notes have this as 963 which I mistakenly listed as Comstock because of the Canadian connection and the fact that I couldn't read my own writing!! My info on US chassis numbers comes from an article in Vintage Motorsport but I no longer have the magazine and failed to note the issue.

#76 David Birchall

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Posted 04 April 2004 - 18:37

Hi RAP and Wino, there is no connection between this car and Gerber so far as I know. And yes, the number 963 sounds very familiar.

Peter Learch raced the car in Canada, perhaps Manfred Cubenoguin has some info on him?

John Maycock found the car in the Montreal area so far as I recall and in the early eighties not mid eighties as I said earlier.

The option of the lightweight Buick engine would seem to be perfect for vintage racing now given the cost of Climax parts and the availability of Rover/Buick parts.
Regards, David B

ps I have that Vintage Racer magazine and will dig it out shortly-right now I have to make beds and clean bathrooms-such is the life of a country innkeeper!

#77 WINO

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Posted 04 April 2004 - 18:41

RAP,

It is Vintage Motorsport July/August 1993, an article by Carlos Pace on V8-engined Lotus 19s. I just rediscovered it and Pace claims the following chassis numbers:

Carstens: 957
Carveth: 962
Columbosian: 963
Arciero: 951
Nethercutt: 955
Mecom: 952
Harrison: 954
Gurney: 966

It is had to verify some of these numbers, especially with Rod Carveth telling me this week that his car was chassis 964. In addition, for the Harrison car to have been 954, the Chapman prodution line must have had frames lying all over the place, used without any logical order.

WINO

#78 David Birchall

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Posted 04 April 2004 - 19:39

Originally posted by RAP
As nobody else has responded to Wino's suggestion of trying to identify the original 19s, here is something for those more knowledgable than I to shoot at -

950 BRP 2.5 Climax
951 Arceiro Bros 2.5 Climax
952 BRP 2.0 Climax
953 BRP 2.5 Climax
954 Frank Harrison 2.5 Climax
955 Jack Nethercutt ?
956 ? Charles Vogele (Switzerland) 2.5 Climax Later changed to 2.0 for Hillclimbs
957 Tom Carstens then Jerry Grant None 3.5 Buick fitted- Later Chevy V8
958 ? Roy Schecter 2.5 Climax
959 ?Peter Ryan 2.5 Climax Featured in "Vintage Racer" 1980
960 ? Robert Publicker 1.5 Climax
961 ? Dr Harry Sweifel (Switzerland) 2.0 Climax
962 Rod Carveth none 3.5 Buick fitted
963 Henry Olds/Bob Columbosian none 3.5 Buick fitted- later McKee Special with 289
964 John Coundley 2.7 Climax
965 Mecom (2.0 litre) 2.0 Climax later fitted 3.5 Buick
966 Gurney 19B 289 Ford

950 -957 appear to have been delivered during 1961, 962 - 965 during 1962 and 966 in 1963.

Somewhere the car used by Harry Zweifel in European hill climbs needs to fit in.

One odd thing is that chassis numbers 950 and 951 are also attributed to Lotus 24 F1 cars in 1962 by Sheldon and Doug Nye's book Theme Lotus.

Corrections and additions eagerly anticipated !!



I have edited the above list and added the info from "The Historic Motor sports JOURNAL " magazine edition 80/01 This was the magazine produced by Steve Earle's group HMSA. Superb article written by Larry Crane

There is more info on later owners in the article. If anybody really needs it I could fax to them.
Regards, David B :smoking:

#79 WINO

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Posted 04 April 2004 - 19:49

The Nethercutt 19 definitely had a 2.5 Climax at Nassau 1961.

WINO

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#80 WINO

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Posted 04 April 2004 - 20:39

A posting in J. Frank Harrison' racing log lists his Lotus 19 as per October 1961, possibly delivery date. No chassis number listed. If this car was in fact 954, this would line up with the timing of 955, the Nethercutt car entered in the October 61 Times GP but not showing up.

However, it seems an awful long interval, from April 61 with 3 finished BRP cars --including 952 and 953--running at Aintree, not to have a larger scale production of the fastest sportracer in the world.

WINO

#81 Doug Nye

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Posted 04 April 2004 - 20:50

Don't bother yourself too much about apparent illogicality in the declared chassis number sequence of Lotus production cars - or indeed of almost any production racing cars from a British manufacturer (or indeed from Italian manufacturers). Numbers did not provide competitiveness - they merely satisfied the beancounters and contemporary Customs requirements. Duplicated numbers from other models, other production runs, other convenient fictions - were all employed from one time to another in securing facilitating paperwork...and that is ALL it amounted to.

DCN

#82 Manfred Cubenoggin

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Posted 05 April 2004 - 00:36

David Birchall wrote:

Peter Learch raced the car in Canada, perhaps Manfred Cubenoguin has some info on him?


David: I take it that the reference here is to chassis 963 being reported as the Comstock entry as driven by Peter Ryan. Sorry, but I cannot confirm this. While I'm hardly an authority on these matters, to the best of my recollection, Peter Lerch never drove a Lotus 19 at Mosport but all of my knowledge of this period is strictly limited to this track alone. Perhaps one of our TNFer's who are members of the Canadian Motor Sport History Group(CMSHG)on Yahoo! could nail this one down for you. (I quit the CMSHG about a month ago in frustration; 50% of the time when logging in, my screen would go blank forcing a re-boot)

I'm certainly aware of a whole host of Lotus 19's in the hands of Canadians in the early 1960's some of which changes hands frequently. Francis Bradley won the Canadian driver's title in a 19 in '62. This car ran with Denny Coad in 1963. Last driven with any degree of competitiveness by Vic Yachuck. Ernie DeVos out of Montreal had a re-bodied Lotus 19 that blew-over at Mosport(story note elsewhere here at TNF).

(Bulletin: It just comes to mind at this very moment that Peter Lerch did show for a race or two in a rear-engined machine in '64 or '65. It had a custom, unidentifiable body and was painted a copper colour - somewhat in vogue here in North America at the time. It sported a V-8, Ford I think, with down-draught Webers and eight 'zoomie' exhaust stacks ala Chaparral. This car may well have been a Lotus 19 chassis.)

Norm Namerow also out of Montreal had a tres quick Lotus 19/Ford V-8 289 CID in 1963(ultimately the Lerch car noted above?)(Namerow died of a heart attack in 1964)

Larry Reilly drove a Chev V-8 powered car in 1965 but the extra torque of the big engine sheared the input shaft to the transaxle in practice for a race. I glommed on as his gopher in the event and was heartily disappointed at this unfortunate turn.

#83 tam999

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Posted 05 April 2004 - 03:10

Regarding Jack Nethercutt's Lotus Mk.19 in 1961, I don't recall seeing him drive the car at the Riverside "Times GP" on Oct. 14-15, 1961. But he definitely appeared the following weekend at Laguna Seca; here's a picture:

http://www.tamsoldra...us19Laguna.html

#84 David Birchall

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Posted 05 April 2004 - 03:19

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Manfred Cubenoggin



(Bulletin: It just comes to mind at this very moment that Peter Lerch did show for a race or two in a rear-engined machine in '64 or '65. It had a custom, unidentifiable body and was painted a copper colour - somewhat in vogue here in North America at the time. It sported a V-8, Ford I think, with down-draught Webers and eight 'zoomie' exhaust stacks ala Chaparral. This car may well have been a Lotus 19 chassis.)


Manfred (sorry about misspelling your name), I think you have recalled the car. I am unsure whether it was known as the McKee special at the time but that is what it became.
Regards, David b

#85 David McKinney

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Posted 05 April 2004 - 05:35

My records say the car raced by Namerow in 1963 and 1964 (and Lerch in 1965) was the ex-Columbosian car 963. Which surely makes a McKee connection unlikely?
The same c/no is on the car raced by Brad Krause at Laguna Seca in the 1990s - where did that car come from?

#86 WINO

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Posted 05 April 2004 - 14:00

TAM,

Four Lotus19s took part in he October 22, 1961 Pacific GP at Laguna Seca: Moss, Gurney, Gendebien and Ryan. Nethercutt did practice his Lotus 19, but he was either too slow to make the filed [wasn't his nickname "ballon foot"?] or the car was withdrawn because of problems. A lot of the 19s needed a couple of events to be completely sorted out.

WINO

#87 tam999

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Posted 05 April 2004 - 14:36

While always a "safety first" driver, Nethercutt was much quicker after a school session at Riverside with Gurney. If I remember correctly, Gurney described Nethercutt's Lotus as the "best in the world".

#88 tam999

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Posted 05 April 2004 - 14:45

Another memory of Nethercutt's Lotus just popped up that may relate to his not qualifying the car for the "Pacific Grand Prix" at Laguna Seca in 1961. I remember reading somewhere that Nethercutt was aghast at the "build quality" (or lack of same) when he received his Lotus and thoroughly went through & upgraded his car. This could have led to Dan Gurney's comment about the car being the "best in the world".

#89 WINO

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Posted 05 April 2004 - 14:59

TAM,

That quality rebuild of Nethercutt's car does not seem to have paid off in any way. At Nassau in December 1961 he lasted only 3 laps. In the 1962 Times GP he needed the consolation race to qualify at the back of the field and then dropped out. At the Pacific GP one week later he was a no-show. Perhaps Gurney was just polite.

WINO

#90 David Birchall

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Posted 05 April 2004 - 16:32

Originally posted by David McKinney
My records say the car raced by Namerow in 1963 and 1964 (and Lerch in 1965) was the ex-Columbosian car 963. Which surely makes a McKee connection unlikely?
The same c/no is on the car raced by Brad Krause at Laguna Seca in the 1990s - where did that car come from?


David, I think your records are correct! There is no doubt about the McKee connection though. Possibly the car just "Transmogrified" over a couple of seasons? And that would have been the rebuilt car at Laguna in the 1990s. It was for sale a year ago on the 'net but the history was er, "abreviated", I think thats the word I want.
David B

#91 bradbury west

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Posted 06 April 2004 - 14:23

Talking about early appearances of the BRP cars in 61, I recall seeing Innes Ireland in one of the cars at the season opener at the wonderful Oulton Park in 61, possibly second week of March as they vied with Snetterton to see who could start earliest. The race also included Dizzy Addicott in the Lotus 15 Buick. Perhaps the recent History of Oulton sheds light.

Regarding the first V8 engined 19s, I recall the ever excellent Len Terry telling me last year about how he was tasked by Chapman to re-engineer the cars for extra strength( wot in a Lotus?) around the cockpit and engine bay for Gurney to use with V8 motors, possibly for the 62 season, (I will check the dates), post Len's services with Mr Green at Gilbey. I will look in Len's book. Perhaps Len can help. The Gurney cars may have been based on existing chassis I suspect if Chapman had stock around and the chance to turn a shilling.


On another line, what ever became of the reputed ex Rosebud 19 owned, so the rumour mill had it, in the 1980s by two farmer brothers in Lincolnshire?. They apparently had quite a few cars, some in their living room, the benefit of being bachelors it seems. Perhaps some Lotus devotees can fill in the details or establish if this was the case.


Re Doug's comments about some of the 19s today not being 19s in years gone by reminds me that it may be timely for someone to list once again dear old Jenks' classification in his Directory of Racing Cars, of cars under

Genuine,

Original,

Restored,

Replica/Facsimile

Recreation

and of course Fake.



keep up the good work and thanks for a lively forum

Roger Lund.

#92 WINO

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Posted 06 April 2004 - 15:23

Roger,

It seems to me that the only factory strengtened 19 was 966 for Dan Gurney, which showed up for the first time at Nassau in 1963. This makes me wonder at what point the 19 owners started calling their cars 19B and 19C.

As for the list of first owners, so far Dave Causey of Indiana does not show up yet. His first 19 appearance was at the 1962 Road America 500. On the face lap the 2.5 -liter car caught fire! Fortunately, little damage was done and Causey managed to finish 23rd and last. Was this a brand new car or could Schechter or Publicker have sold their car to him. I have no records of the last two gentlemen ever having raced a 19 in the South East of the US/Florida, where they would normally have done so. And why would anybody order a 19 with a 1.5-liter engine?

WINO

#93 Kelvin Jones

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Posted 07 April 2004 - 08:31

In Reply to Bradbury West, The ex rosbude car is owned and raced buy Otto Reidz.

#94 Doug Nye

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Posted 07 April 2004 - 09:24

Baron Otto Reedz-Thott - Danish - good guy - very rapid driver indeed but inclined towards over-enthusiasm. A friend and supporter of Jason Watt, the incredibly quick young driver who was rendered paraplegic by a motorcycling accident and who has returned to racing with some success.

DCN

#95 Manfred Cubenoggin

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Posted 07 April 2004 - 11:09

A real hybrid!

Some years back in a house move, I chucked all my old racing mags that dated back to the early 1960's. What was I thinking? I have nothing but foggy recollections of the articles in them but seem to recall a feature in an early '60's Sports Car Graphic of a Lotus 19 driven by Innes Ireland that had a 3-litre Ferrari V-12 stuffed into the engine bay! This may have been a Mecom or Rosebud entry. Any details on this marriage?

(from Bradbury West's post: A Lotus 15 with Buick V-8 power? Tell us more!)

#96 Ray Bell

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Posted 07 April 2004 - 13:59

Indeed, I seem also to recall that Ferrari powered car...

There was yet another alloy V8-powered Lotus 15... John Schroder, IIRC, fitted such an engine to the ex-Frank Matich Lotus 15, but it was very rarely seen on the circuit. It was also well out of date when this happened.

#97 WINO

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Posted 07 April 2004 - 14:25

Innes Ireland raced the Rosebud 19 in the 1962 professional West Coast races, with a 2-liter Climax. He won the under-2-liter class at Riverside, dropping out at Laguna Seca. At Nassau he won with the same car, now with 2.5-liter Climax. Later the V12 Ferrari was installed.

The Rosebud 19 started life as one of the three BRP/Laystall cars.

WINO

#98 xkssFrankOpalka

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Posted 07 April 2004 - 15:06

A Lotus 15? was fitted with a Buick BOP engine and saw it win many raced in the Midwest until it crashed and burned and was destroyed.

#99 David McKinney

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Posted 07 April 2004 - 16:18

Originally posted by xkssFrankOpalka
A Lotus 15? was fitted with a Buick BOP engine and saw it win many raced in the Midwest until it crashed and burned and was destroyed.

Sy Kaback?

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#100 WINO

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Posted 07 April 2004 - 16:52

Could not have been Sy Kaback. Sy raced his Blotus [Lotus 15/Buick] primarily on the Eastern tracks: Vineland, Watkins Glen, Bridgehampton, Thompson, Lime Rock.

See www.simplesevens.org/sykaback

WINO