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Case history: Lotus 19 Monte Carlo


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#101 David Birchall

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Posted 07 April 2004 - 17:01

The Lotus 15 raced by "Dizzy" Addicott in England had a Buick 3.5 didn't it? I think this car resurfaced fairly recently.


I seem to recall Innes Ireland stuffing the Lotus 19/Ferrari at Seattle in 1963(?)

David B

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#102 xkssFrankOpalka

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Posted 08 April 2004 - 02:52

It was Ralph Darlington.

#103 Michael Oliver

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Posted 14 April 2004 - 09:41

Was just looking for something completely unrelated to Lotus 19s, when I came across the following info and photos of the Matich 19 and 19B, which talks about the origin of each car and is written by a former mechanic of Matich's:

http://www.vintagesp...oadracing2.html

He says that after the Warwick farm crash, a new chassis and body were flown out from England.

Don't know if this adds anything but the photos are interesting...

Michael

#104 WINO

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Posted 14 April 2004 - 12:10

Michael,

Very interesting photos of the Frank Matich Lotus 19. Based on its crumbled aluminum body, the photos prove that Frank bought the BRP prototype 19, chassis 950, the only one not made of fiberglass.

WINO

#105 Doug Nye

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Posted 14 April 2004 - 12:22

Ummm - where exactly in those photographs is evidence of the car's "crumbled aluminum body"???

DCN

#106 WINO

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Posted 14 April 2004 - 12:31

The crumbled top of the rear deck skin in the first photo on the right. Can't be fiberglass. Unless it is a tarp, but the quality of the photo does not allow closer examination.

Just looking for proof to verify a separate source that claims that the Matich car was the original Moss aluminum 19.

WINO

#107 Ray Bell

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Posted 14 April 2004 - 14:24

It is a tarp... there are photos somewhere of the car crashed up against the Warwick Farm pit wall that would reveal much more.

Once again, I need to get the pics from John Ellacott... he has pics of it as it came off the boat, at the first test session and the first race meeting. They show a lot...

Oh yes, Brian Darby's site confirms that Matich's original 19 had a queerbox.

#108 T54

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Posted 14 April 2004 - 15:01

Innes Ireland raced the Rosebud 19 in the 1962 professional West Coast races, with a 2-liter Climax.



Innes raced the Ferrari V12 car, notably at the 1964 LA Times and Pacific GP's. I have plenty of photos of this car there, and will try scanning them. Looks like the wheelbase was lenghtened to fit the Italian brick. The car was slow and went nowhere according to the record. The other Team Rosebud car, the Brabham-BRM BT8 2-liter, won its class at the Pacific GP driven by Trevor Taylor.
Regards,

T54

#109 edtheshred

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Posted 15 April 2004 - 22:44

Hi guys, I'm new here but i have some info on the 19B that dan owned. it was painted dark blue like the f1 eagle, had a modified sloped nose, and a rear spoiler with a small oil cooler in it. also the roll bar was lower on the passager side than the driver side. the gear shift was on the right side of the driver not in the center. during tire testing at riverside joe lenard put it on its head in the esses. pete wilconson did the repairs and it was sold to a guy named steve diullo who ran it in cal club, scca. he sold it to a lawyer named dick calluet. i drove the car in 1968 and won the so cal regional championship. dick decided he wanted to drive it himself and bent it up badly at el toro. i lost track of it after that. when i drove it we had a traco chevie and the exceleration would just pin you in the seat and breaking would lift you right out of the seat. if you just frowned at it the tail end was gone. i have some pictures if someone could tell me how to load them up if anyone is interested.

#110 WINO

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Posted 15 April 2004 - 22:58

Ed,

I think you are referring to what was called at the time the Lotus 19J/Ford, in which Gurney and Jerry Grant played Ford rabbit a number of times during the Ferrari/Ford wars. I have a picture somewhere of Steve Diulo, owner later on, in that 19 being very much out of control at Laguna Seca.

WINO

#111 xkssFrankOpalka

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Posted 16 April 2004 - 01:29

The ex Jerry Grant car is the one I ran against at Milwaukee State Fair Pk, I ran the ex Jerry Hansen Wolverine Chevy.

#112 Kelvin Jones

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Posted 16 April 2004 - 09:24

Regarding the Frank Matich car, There is no evidense of there being a Aluminium body fitted to this car. The orig Aluminium body is still with Chassis 950 which is here in the UK. Does any one know the date when Matich bought the car?.
Kelvin Jones

#113 WINO

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Posted 16 April 2004 - 12:26

I was led to believe that Frank Matich bought the Moss/BRP prototype 19 in January 1963.

WINO

#114 antonvrs

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Posted 16 April 2004 - 14:01

I was crew(gofer) on the ex-Gurney 19 for a few races when Steve Diulo owned it in 1965. It resurfaced in the late '70s owned by one Wayne Linden in So Cal. I was then the scrutineer for VARA and was able to i.d. it for him.
Wayne restored it to it's Ford powered 19G(for Gurney) configuration and sold it to Gordon Gimble whose wife has run it numerous times at the Monterey Historics.
Anton

#115 David Birchall

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Posted 16 April 2004 - 16:42

It was when Wayne Linden had it at the Monterey historics in 78(?) that Henry Manney made his wonderful remark "Soon as get in a 'lectric chair as get in that..." :lol:

#116 rdrcr

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Posted 16 April 2004 - 18:02

Here are a few pictures of Ed in his Lotus 19B at Riverside International Raceway - 1968
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Nice drive there Ed...

:cool:

#117 Ray Bell

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Posted 16 April 2004 - 22:20

Originally posted by WINO
I was led to believe that Frank Matich bought the Moss/BRP prototype 19 in January 1963.


Somehow I'd say that was highly unlikely...

I first saw this car October 14, 1962... and Frank was well established with it then, probably had it about a year.

John Ellacott saw my earlier post yesterday and rang me, he's organising those pictures for posting and I'd say (seeing as he was there when the car first arrived...) he can give us a closer date.

Edit Dec 17 2005... due to a change in my ISP's name etc, the photos no longer show up in John Ellacott's post below... so I'm putting them in this post for all to see:

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The Lotus 19 as it arrived - complete with soft top

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First tryout at Warwick Farm

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Matich ready to test the car for the first time

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Matich at speed between the Western Crossing and Homestead Corner - probably during 1962

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By 1965 it was a totally different car

#118 John Ellacott

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Posted 21 April 2004 - 08:37

Originally posted by Ray Bell
John Ellacott saw my earlier post yesterday and rang me, he's organising those pictures for posting and I'd say (seeing as he was there when the car first arrived...) he can give us a closer date.


Posted Image
The Lotus 19 as it arrived - complete with soft top

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First tryout at Warwick Farm

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Matich ready to test the car for the first time

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Matich at speed between the Western Crossing and Homestead Corner - probably during 1962

Posted Image
By 1965 it was a totally different car

#119 David McKinney

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Posted 21 April 2004 - 09:35

John
Has the colour degraded on the "at speed" shot?
Or don't I know what I'm talking about?
The only time I saw the car was when FM took it to NZ Dec 63/Jan 64 - I'm sure it was then light blue rather than BRP green (which it appears to be in your 1962 pic) - with a secondary colour which my fading memory can't recall. The Tasman Brabham was the same (though it was later in the same colours as the Lotus in your bottom picture)

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#120 Kelvin Jones

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Posted 21 April 2004 - 11:59

:up: What great photos of the Matich car. If you are right about this car arriving in 61 that means there was 4 cars, because the other three cars were still running in the UK and The USA.
Looking at the condition of the car when it arrived, could this car have been a "Bitza".

#121 Michael Oliver

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Posted 21 April 2004 - 12:56

Originally posted by David McKinney
John
Has the colour degraded on the "at speed" shot?
Or don't I know what I'm talking about?
The only time I saw the car was when FM took it to NZ Dec 63/Jan 64 - I'm sure it was then light blue rather than BRP green (which it appears to be in your 1962 pic) - with a secondary colour which my fading memory can't recall. The Tasman Brabham was the same (though it was later in the same colours as the Lotus in your bottom picture)


David

I don't think you are having a senior moment at all! If you go to the link I posted to Brian Darby's site, he states in two places that the rebuilt 19B was originally painted powder blue. So I guess it must have gained the predominantly white livery at some point after Dec 63/Jan 64...

John

Love the photos - do you have any idea of the date of that first run?

Kelvin

Am I missing something here because I haven't seen anyone suggesting that Matich took delivery of his car in 1961, so I think you may be mistaken about there being four cars. I am sure Doug has already said that it was one of the BRP cars that was sold to Matich.

I think Ray Bell said he first saw the car in Oct 62 and that he *thought* Matich had owned it for about a year but that may not be correct, for example he could have taken delivery in early 1962...

Cheers

Michael

#122 David McKinney

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Posted 21 April 2004 - 13:41

I know I didn't frame my question very well
What I meant was:
We know the car raced in BRP/UDT colours in the Northern Hemisphere
It still seemed to be in this livery when it arrived in Australia
It was powder blue when I saw it race a bit later
Did it race with light green bodywork in Australia (as it appears in John's "at speed" photo)?

#123 Manfred Cubenoggin

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Posted 21 April 2004 - 13:50

I've noticed in many Lotus 19's that I've seen in the flesh and those in various photos from around the world a seeming difference in chassis construction. I'm refering to what appears to be a visible frame rail(or perhaps more likely, some manner of aluminium extrusion)at the bottom of the aluminium panel which covers the chassis between front and rear wheels. On some others, the aluminium panel appears to tuck under smoothly with a curvature at its lower extremity and no rail is visible. What accounts for this difference? John Ellacott's posted photos above of the Matich car are an example of the version with rail.

#124 WINO

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Posted 21 April 2004 - 15:51

Manfed,

As I remember from an early description of the car, those are either brake lines or oil lines. Gurney deemed the location too vulnerable and mounted them inboard on the Arciero 19.

As for the Matich car, based on the color and the high windshield, it seems to be one of the BRP cars last raced in the UK, since their US entries featured a low windshield. With 952 going to Rosebud and 953 being raced by Gregory in the US as late as October 1962 with a low windshield, it seems to me that the Matich car has to be the 950 prototype.

But does it still feature the aluminum body or had it been replaced by then.

WINO

#125 David Birchall

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Posted 21 April 2004 - 16:36

Those were oil lines running to the oil cooler-very vulnerable position but presumably the idea was that they got extra cooling in that location.
David B

#126 Kelvin Jones

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Posted 21 April 2004 - 18:14

Wino, Regarding Gregory driving 953 do you know what races etc as this is my car?

Michael, I have a artical about Matich and it ststes that his first race was at Catalina parkon the 21 Jan 1962 It broke its crank after 3 laps of practice. Moss seen the car shortly after at Warwick farm he then blew the whistle on the UDT machanics for sending out such a car, where obviously all the good parts had been kept in the UK. Even the body not the same and the the fit was very poor, which you can see in the phots.Therfore at Stirlings instigation UDT refunded a very large proportion of the price paid for the 19. The car was bought using finance from United Dominion Corperation in Sydney an off shot of UDT UK. In 1962 all three UDT cars were converted to center lock wire wheels and cutaway rear arches.
All the best Kelvin. :wave:

#127 WINO

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Posted 21 April 2004 - 19:06

Kelvin,

Gregory raced a BRP Lotus 19 [presumably the same chassis number] during 1962 in the following North American races:

- Players 200, 1st
- Canadian GP, 1st
- Northwest GP, 2nd behind Gurney's 19
- Times GP, 3rd behind Penske's Zerex and Hall's Chaparral
- Pacific GP, 4th [6th in both heats]

No sign of the car at Nassau 1962, but Graham Hill drove it in the1963 Players 200.

WINO

#128 WINO

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Posted 21 April 2004 - 19:13

If Matich got his 19 as early as January 1963, which BRP chassis number did Tony Maggs race in the August 1962 Guards Trophy?

WINO

#129 WINO

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Posted 21 April 2004 - 19:17

Make that the August 1963 Guards Trophy. It must have been the Gregory car, since Rosebud got theirs as early as the February 1962 Daytona Continental.

WINO

#130 Michael Oliver

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Posted 21 April 2004 - 20:34

Originally posted by WINO
If Matich got his 19 as early as January 1963, which BRP chassis number did Tony Maggs race in the August 1962 Guards Trophy?

WINO


Er, Kelvin was saying that Matich got his car in January 62...!

Michael

#131 WINO

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Posted 21 April 2004 - 20:52

Michael,

You are right. I was still quoting my original and ancient data.

WINO

#132 RAP

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Posted 22 April 2004 - 07:56

I thought we had pretty much agreed that 953 was the last Lotus 19 kept by BRP to August 63 then sold to Pendleton (Sept/Oct 63) then Pitt and O'Brien then Kelvin. Without detailed checking, my impression is that in 1962 BRP only ever entered a single car at a meeting which suggests that 950 and 952 were sold at the end of 1961? If Doug Nye is still following this thread maybe he would go back to Tony Robinson and see if he can remember.
RAP

#133 Kelvin Jones

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Posted 22 April 2004 - 08:23

Wino, Regarding Tony Maggs racing at Brands in Aug 63 this was my car 953.

#134 Kelvin Jones

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Posted 22 April 2004 - 08:51

Regarding the John Coundley car, This car had a 2.750cc FPF. Is this the car which was also raced in 1966 buy with the registration no 19 MOG, Buy John Scott Davies?

#135 KJJ

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Posted 22 April 2004 - 09:04

Just looking at the Robert Edwards book 'Managing a Legend' which has an appendix of BRP Racing History. This confirms RAP's impression that in 1962 BRP only ever entered a single car at a meeting.

Last meeting in which BRP competed with more than one Lotus 19 was Crystal Palace, May 22nd 1961 with three cars for Allison, Parkes and Henry Taylor.

Innes Ireland was second in the Sports Car race at the International Trophy meeting on 5th May 1963 which Edwards has as the last occasion when BRP competed with a Lotus 19.

So who was the entrant of the Maggs car at Brands Hatch? Is this just an ommision on Edwards' part?

#136 WINO

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Posted 22 April 2004 - 10:52

It would not be the only omission by Edwards when it comes to the BRP 19 record. Other entries that are missing:

- Nassau 1960: Moss
- Players 200 1961: Gendebien
- Canadian GP 1961: Moss and Gendebien
- Times GP 1961: Moss and Gendebien
- Pacific GP 1961: Gendebien
- Northwest GP 1962: Gregory
- Players 200 1963: Hill

WINO

#137 Kelvin Jones

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Posted 22 April 2004 - 12:24

The car enterd at Brands for Ireland was Chassis no 953, It was the only 19 they had left.
Does any one know why the BRP cars had Tartan on the front, and what type was It ?
Kelvin.

#138 RAP

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Posted 22 April 2004 - 15:56

I have the programme for the Guards International 6 Aug 63 in front of me and it confirms that the entrant of Maggs' Lotus 19 was BRP. with 2496cc engine.
RAP

#139 KJJ

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Posted 22 April 2004 - 17:27

Doug Nye was of the opinion that the tartan on the BRP cars was in honour of UDT Chairman Bob Gibson-Jarvie and Barrie Boor concluded it was the Gibson tartan. If I knew how to post their quotes I would.

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#140 Tim Murray

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Posted 22 April 2004 - 19:03

When you've found the post you wish to quote, just click on the 'quote' button at the top of the post:

Originally posted by Doug Nye

As for the tartan on the UDT-Laystall cars I think it was in honour of UDT Chairman Bob Gibson-Jarvie, but I'm nae sure from which clan yon Gibson-Jarvies drew their tartan. Other possibility, since Pa Moss was a partner in the team would be from his wife Aileen, Stirl's mum, who was another good Scot, but I doubt it. I must confess, I've never asked... :blush:

DCN

Originally posted by Barry Boor
Thanks again, Doug. Checking a website of tartans and searching for the name Gibson brought up a tartan that looks quite like what I saw (and photographed) on a Lotus 18 at Coy's a few years ago.



#141 Ray Bell

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Posted 22 April 2004 - 22:40

Just to put John's great pictures on this page too... save people backtracking...

Posted Image
The Lotus 19 as it arrived - complete with soft top

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First tryout at Warwick Farm

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Matich ready to test the car for the first time

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Matich at speed between the Western Crossing and Homestead Corner - probably during 1962

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[SIZE=1]By 1965 it was a totally different car

Let's hope he gets a chance to post the one of Matich at Catalina racing with that tall screen!



Originally posted by David McKinney
John
Has the colour degraded on the "at speed" shot?
Or don't I know what I'm talking about?
The only time I saw the car was when FM took it to NZ Dec 63/Jan 64 - I'm sure it was then light blue rather than BRP green (which it appears to be in your 1962 pic) - with a secondary colour which my fading memory can't recall. The Tasman Brabham was the same (though it was later in the same colours as the Lotus in your bottom picture)

No, David, the Team Total Lotus 19 always raced in the green (UDT) colour, but with Total tricolours in appropriate places from the time Team Total was formed.

When the 19 was crashed, the subsequent 19B was a powder blue with the Total identification on it. Please note that the change to white with the tricolour stripes, as in the lower photo, only took place over the Christmas-New Year break of 1964/65... that is, the car only appeared in these colours from late January (if then?) 1965 until its demise in June 1965.

As Matich concentrated on his Brabham during much of this time (Tasman Cup races...) it only ever appeared in these colours about four or five times, IIRC.

So, now as we sort this all out... UDT ran all three of their cars for the last time in May, 1961. All three cars had their rear wheel arches cut out (as on the Matich car) in 1962, however, by which time Matich had his car.

After all, he had to get it transported here, and he tested it (as in John's photos...) before racing at the end of January or early February at Catalina, so it must have left England in 1961. With the cutaway wheel arches...

#142 David McKinney

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Posted 23 April 2004 - 05:14

Thanks for clarifying that Ray
I should have worked out that it was the second car I saw

#143 Ted Walker

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Posted 23 April 2004 - 12:12

Just printed some photographs taken at 1962 Frieburg Hill Climb with 2 19s taking part. Who was driving them ????

#144 Doug Nye

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Posted 23 April 2004 - 21:48

Knee-jerk reflex - Harry Zweifel should have been in one - Charles Vogele in the other perhaps???

DCN

#145 Ray Bell

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Posted 23 April 2004 - 21:51

That would be with the Climax Charlie later put in the Brabham?

It seems a whole world away, reading about those European hillclimbs and the people who competed in them...

#146 David McKinney

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Posted 24 April 2004 - 05:31

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Knee-jerk reflex - Harry Zweifel should have been in one - Charles Vogele in the other perhaps???
DCN

Those were they.
Zweifel's car (c/no 956) used a 4-cyl Maserati engine

#147 Doug Nye

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Posted 24 April 2004 - 08:07

:eek: - blimey!

DCN

#148 Ray Bell

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Posted 24 April 2004 - 09:37

That could well have been a more potent bit of gear than the Climax... especially if it was a 3-litre...

#149 David McKinney

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Posted 24 April 2004 - 19:59

Don't recall any 3-litre four-cylinder Maserati engine...
In any case, IIRC the European Mountain Championship limit was two litres

#150 Ray Bell

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Posted 25 April 2004 - 02:26

Of course, David, you're right... I'd forgotten that!

There were 2.9 Maserati fours, however...