Case history: Lotus 19 Monte Carlo
Posted 25 April 2004 - 05:30
There was a 2.5 pre-war, and the postwar 250S of the same size, but I can't think of anything bigger than that
Posted 25 April 2004 - 06:24
Wasn't the tipo 61 2890cc?
Originally posted by David McKinney
Don't recall those either
There was a 2.5 pre-war, and the postwar 250S of the same size, but I can't think of anything bigger than that
Barely an apostrophe less....
Posted 25 April 2004 - 14:29
Posted 27 April 2004 - 13:06
"Yes, the gearbox was branded Lotus and it was a Lotus sequential box, pretty crude, Frank didn't think it was very strong, from memory.
The 19 was I'm sure, owned by Total Oil Company [note: this appears to contradict an earlier post about the car being financed by a UDT subsidiary, although clearly it is difficult to say which story is correct!] . A French Owned Company operating in Australia at the time. Frank ran a Total Oil Company Service Station in a suburb of Sydney. I think Laurie O'Neil, a Sydney business man may have financed the 19B, I can't be sure on that one.
Frank's previous employer, Leaton Motors also ran under the Total banner and this is where Frank got his contacts to go out on his own. Leaton's ran a Lotus 15, the only one out here at the time and Frank was unbeatable in it.
I never saw the 19B in white [note: due to the fact that he left Matich's employ before it was re-liveried] but the Red, White and Blue you refer to should read Blue, White and Red , colours of the French flag.( That is of course unless when it was painted white the three colours may have stood for the British flag )
The Total Oil Co. used to have the three colour decal as a give away and you will see it on the Geoheagen Lotus's ( or is that Lotii ?) out here in Australia you will also see those colours on the Renault R8 featured on my site, although they were painted on and ran over the whole length of the car.
The original 19 Monte Carlo was an ex Stirling Moss car and had a pale Green, nearly Lime, paint and the panels were of fibre glass. The 19B had fibre glass panels and was a very pale Blue.
Both cars ran the original Magnesum wheels. Frank ran 2.5 litre and 2.6 engines in the cars. I think the 2.6 came from a stroked crankshaft.
Frank's biggest opposition here in the big sports cars was Bib Stillwell who ran a Cooper Monaco. Bib also ran open wheel Coopers and was Franks big local oppostion when we first ran the Tasman Brabham open wheeler in 1963. He and Frank tangled on their first meeting at Warwick Farm, putting Frank out of the race early ( after many days and nights hard work by the team the get the Brabham ready in time )
I remember the day, clearly at Warwick Farm when Bruce put the 19 into the Pit counter ( made of solid timber, ex railway sleepers ) backwards at speed but I can't help with the date, wish I could I'd write a book.
He's lucky he went in backwards, front on would have killed him, I'm sure, no seat belts in those days !"
Don't know if this helps but I think WINO was asking whether the car was still aluminium bodied or fibreglass, so at least we have an answer on that one...
Posted 27 April 2004 - 13:25
Posted 27 April 2004 - 23:05
Yes, Total stripes were for the French flag and were to be affixed (as every service station owner handing them would say to you...) blue/white/red.
I customised mine for my trip to Sandown in 1964...
...rather than just have the horizontal strip, I cut the pieces to form a shield on the bonnet and did something different at the side, while on the bootlid I had the standard stripe IIRC. This photo taken minutes before Albert Jones persuaded me to let him do a lap of Bathurst and put the car into the fence at Hell Corner.
The 19B, as mentioned previously, very rarely ran in the white. This colour scheme came in at the beginning of 1965 for the team, which comprised Matich and the Geoghegans, the latter being firmly fixed on black for their cars. Even their new Mustang was ordered from America in black, their father being keen on retaining that colour for their cars.
But he died at that time, so, contrary to the story on this web page...
...the change of colour wasn't because of new sponsorship, but was because their father had died and so they were free to paint it a colour other than black.
Whether UDT were involved in the financing of the 19 I have no idea, though I will ask Frank. But it was owned by Total as far as I know, and it's true that Frank regarded the crownwheel and pinion as marginal as he wrote about this in his magazine column, referring to easy starts to protect it... and he often lost the start to Stillwell in their 19 v Monaco clashes... in fact, I was looking at some movie of one of these just yesterday (thanks, again, to John Ellacott...).
Laurie O'Neill certainly financed the Traco Oldsmobile, and he had some money in the 19B, but when Frank crashed that at Lakeside and Total took the opportunity they were looking for (the Australian Total operation had been sold to Boral...) to pull out of financing Franks forays in fielding fabulously fast vehicles, they did just that. The Brabham was sold immediately and the 19B was never seen again. It had a Hewland box, by the way... and Brabham wheels (visible in the photo) and other Brabham bits and pieces.
As for the 'railway sleeper' fences... this is bandied about all the time, but these are the facts.
Yes, there were railway sleepers. The fence posts were railway sleepers and the flaggie barriers were railway sleepers, but the balance of all timber safety fences around Warwick Farm were (and incidentally, as required by law) 2" thick planks bolted to those sleepers.
I'm sure the photo of Bruce walking around the wreck shows this clearly, actually...
And for Brian... I am in the process of preparing to write that book... I want to talk to you at length...
Posted 02 May 2004 - 12:55
plus a google for the last half-hour looking for information on CC cylinder heads. My search was to determine if a four-valve head was ever produced or even considered for the FPF spec engine? To the best of my knowledge, it was strictly a two-valve arrangement. The extra flow to be had from a four-valve may have kept the big four-lunger on the pace a little longer.
Posted 02 May 2004 - 17:37
Posted 05 May 2004 - 08:49
Originally posted by Manfred Cubenoggin
.....My search was to determine if a four-valve head was ever produced or even considered for the FPF spec engine? To the best of my knowledge, it was strictly a two-valve arrangement. The extra flow to be had from a four-valve may have kept the big four-lunger on the pace a little longer.
Probably not... after all, C-C didn't come out with the 4-valve head for the FWMV until nearly three years (was it not?) after it first appeared, and that was in a much more competitive situation. And for an engine that would have benefitted more, IMO.
The FPF was pretty much on the ragged edge, I think you'll find. It had, after all, been stretched from a 1.25 to a 1.5 and then in stages up to 2.7 litres. There were new block castings, new head castings, provision for cross-bolting main bearings etc, but all based on the same foundations.
To get the most out of 4-valve setups, more revs would have been required.
C-C were also very conservative... and the twin-plug facility was, IIRC, there in every head made for the FPF. There was a provision in the casting, but very few were ever drilled and tapped...
Posted 06 May 2004 - 11:39
(Ha! Even as I hit the 'reply' button for this post, I had a thought of an Offy 4-banger ala Indy races of the early '60's period being dropped into the engine bay. No, no. Just kidding.
Posted 14 May 2004 - 07:43
Posted 16 May 2004 - 11:59
Originally posted by RAP
The Lotus 19 first appeared in mid 1960. In 1961 the UDT Laystall team (as the British Racing Partnership was then known) ran three cars in the UK, pretty much dominating the major races. One exception was at Crystal Palace where, to quote Autosport,
"Two of these cars, those of Taylor and Parkes, had been fitted with knock-on wire wheels in readiness for Sunday's Nurburgring 1000kms race. Taylor lost his nearside rear wheel on the warm up lap and Parkes did the same on lap six"
This saga seems remarkable and was serious enough to prevent the cars running at the Nurburgring. A number of questions come to mind.
Why wasn't the problem found in practice?
Knock on wheels were well established - if the problem was a faulty batch there would have been time to get more before the Nurburgring. Perhaps they were using "wrong size" wheels or did they present greater weight/stresses than the hubs could handle?
Why run them at Crystal Palace anyway?
Can anyone add more to this episode?
Does the photo above (posted on the UDT colours thread) amount to adding 'more to this episode'?
Posted 16 May 2004 - 13:31
Posted 17 May 2004 - 08:26
Posted 26 May 2004 - 00:57
Originally posted by Kelvin Jones
.....Michael, I have a artical about Matich and it ststes that his first race was at Catalina parkon the 21 Jan 1962 It broke its crank after 3 laps of practice. Moss seen the car shortly after at Warwick farm he then blew the whistle on the UDT machanics for sending out such a car, where obviously all the good parts had been kept in the UK. Even the body not the same and the the fit was very poor, which you can see in the phots.Therfore at Stirlings instigation UDT refunded a very large proportion of the price paid for the 19. The car was bought using finance from United Dominion Corperation in Sydney an off shot of UDT UK. In 1962 all three UDT cars were converted to center lock wire wheels and cutaway rear arches.
All the best Kelvin.
I discussed this with Frank yesterday... at some length... and he spelled out all this detail, admitting that some of it was a little lost to the years, but essentially everything that you have posted here.
He had bought the car with the regular windscreen, but got the body with the high windscreen. He had bought the car with a Colotti box, but it arrived with a Queerbox ("They weren't a bad box, you know, as long as you set them up right..."), that Stirling Moss had been heavily involved in correcting matters financially, and Reg Parnell too.
But he didn't mention the finance from UDT at all... and then we finally found this post... "How did he know all that?" Frank was asking me, "and those financial details. Who is this?"
The crankshaft was obviously carrying a very old crack, according to Frank. It would have been very unlikely that it hadn't been previously detected. There was a lot of that sort of thing about the car, so it's clear why Moss went in to bat for Frank.
By the way, there's a picture of Moss in the car at Warwick Farm on the cover of a contemporary Sports Car World...
Posted 26 May 2004 - 02:27
Posted 04 July 2004 - 02:42
For anyone still interested in this topic; the Jul/Aug (2004/4) Vintage Motorsort magazine has an article which fits this description...
Originally posted by WINO
...1962 Daytona Continental...I hope to do an article on this very interesting race in the near future, as it featured the best field of Formula One, SCCA, NASCAR and USAC drivers ever assembled. The finish sequence will be included.
(True - a great entry list. This article was the first time I've seen a photo of Jim Hall on the Daytona banking in the Chaparral 1. I'd like to see more pictures of the various entrants such as the Pontiac Tempests. Maybe there are some photo which got left out? hint...hint...)
Posted 07 March 2006 - 16:13
I was looking at photos of the Arciero Lotus 19 from several sources (Dave Friedman's Pro Sports Car Racing In America 1958-1974; Gus Vignolle's Motor Racing CD in particular) and found that over a two year span the car's roll hoop changed configuration several times. In 1960 and most of 1961 it was a small chrome hoop looking like a paper clip. Yet at Nassau in December 1961 it was a large curved shape with a forward mounted brace. It stayed that way for the infamous starter motor/coasting finish at Daytona 3-hours (choose your sides on that argument) and the Players 200 in June 1962 before reverting back to the chrome hoop for the Mosport 200, and the Kent, Riverside and Laguna Seca races that concluded the 1962 season.
I also have found photos of the Innes Ireland-driven Lotus 19 that raced in October 1962 at Laguna with a large curved roll bar (like the Arciero car) but several weeks later at Nassau it had no roll bar at all.
I assume that during this time there was only one Arciero Lotus 19, chassis #951?
Therefore, I guess the simplest explanation must be that the bars were removeable and interchangeable, but was that part of the car's design? And aren't bolt-in rollbars considered dangerous and therefore prohibited? Did the configuration change depending on the sanctioning body?
Posted 07 March 2006 - 18:36
I have this Dave Friedman picture of a smiling Jack Brabham thrashing on his BT8 before the 1964 LA Times GP in the tin buildings at the defunct Riverside raceway. To swap the engines from the Climax FPF 2-liter short-stroke to the more potent 2.7-liter unit, Jack has sawed off the roll bar and bent it forward. In the picture, he is sitting over the back of the car and torqueing the Climax's head onto the block. Once the engine was replaced, the roll bar was re-welded as seen on the ensuing race pictures.
That should tell you all about the casual attitude about regulations-required roll bars in those blessed but dangerous years...
Posted 09 March 2006 - 18:17
Seems there might be a conflict of data, here. I have just layed in a new scanner and can post images I took of DG's Lotus 19 at Mosport for the fall running of the Canadian GP(for sports cars)and it shows clearly that the car is fitted with the 'paper clip' type rollover bar. This is at odds with the data header attached to the image link for the 'curved' example in teegeefla's post just above.
Here they are, chaps.
Edit: I've looked closely again at teegeefla's image and it certainly looks like the Mosport pit lane and stalls. Indeed, from the shadows, it would appear that the shot was taken rather early in the morining. We need to track down this pix.
Posted 09 March 2006 - 20:03
Could there be some confusion over the date stamp on the header? The "curved" shot is from June 9, 1962 but is presented in the European manner of 9.6.62 so it is from June not from September.
I have dug deeper into some books and have found in Dave Friedman's "Pro Sports Car Racing in America 1958-1974" photos of the Arciero #96 from both 1962 Mosport events. On page 58 it shows the June 9 race with the "curved" rollbar version chasing eventual winner Masten Gregory in another Lotus 19 that was carrying the number 4.
On page 60 is a photo of the grid of the September 22 race with the "paper clip" car and the following page shows #96 (paper clip) chasing Gregory in the winning Lotus 19 sporting the number 71.
Sorry I cannot scan these right now...but does this clarify anything? And if you want to get even more confused, if you go to the original site of the photo:
it states that the car is chassis #966 which did not appear in races until Nassau 1963 (according to posts 60 and 67).
Posted 09 March 2006 - 21:14
I'm quite satisfied with your explanation that the 'curved' bar was fitted for the June event. I had confused myself into thinking the reference was to the fall GP. Good show.
As for posting more pix of 19's, be my guess. Can't get enough of 'em. My all-time fav sports racer.
PS: I do have a number of other pix from both the 200 and GP of '62. Perhaps I should post them in a new thread.
Posted 09 March 2006 - 23:13
Posted 09 March 2006 - 23:49
Sorry, I wasn't aware of that shunt being captured on film beit stills, film or tape. I was well up ahead of it and parked on the exit of corner #8 when the race was red flagged. It would be something to see, I'm sure. Were you involved in the melee?
I have many, many pix of Lotus 19's from 1962 thru 1966 ranging from locally run efforts to international entries. Let me get my scanner hummin' over the next couple of days.
Posted 10 March 2006 - 00:33
Posted 04 October 2006 - 18:45
in 1967. The driver (owner?) was Allen Taylor.
It -- particularly the nose -- appears to have had a rather hard life.
Posted 07 October 2006 - 13:25
Here is Dave Greenblatt in his Lotus 19. He put a Corvette engine in it and a Hewland gearbox and called it Dailu MK4. He was running second in a race at Mosport when the steering fractured on the start of the final lap. Now in Dave Greenblatt's words:
"Two flag marshalls had left their post at turn one. They were already anticipating the end of the race. They came down from their post at the top of the hill and were standing at the edge of the track with their backs to the track. I can still visualize the event. Traveling at over 100 mph the Lotus heading for the two course marshalls. On impact one came to rest up the hill over the fence into the spectators. The second one went straight up into the air and came back down on top of the cockpit unconcious, while I continued in a sideways slide up the hill into a Hydo pole which made impact on the drivers side bringing the car to a rest. Fortunatley the injuries were not life threatining, except one of the marshalls was left with a permanent limp from leg damage. The wrecked car was sold to a driver in Quebec, whose name I do not recall. I do not know if it was ever rebuilt and there are rumors that it may have gone to Bob McKee either for repair or to create a new McKee Special."
Posted 11 October 2006 - 17:44
Good to make contact again. To whet your appetite here is a copy of the documents I have sent to The Historic Lotus Register. I do not think you should make this public domain just yet.
Coltman’s comments are interesting in that there were only 12 cars that came out of the factory with engines. My guess is that demand came for more cars, and so they filled the demand to get more revenue by shipping cars without engines as that was the bottleneck to production.
The 963 information is rock solid, I have no doubt whatsoever that it is correct. There is no unbroken ownership period, and all the literature fits the timeline.
For the list of the chassis numbers, the ones with a cross and a circle, I have either seen, or have reliable information that the owner/chassis number details are correct. Orosco’s name figures prominently on the list so he would be a good source of information.
I know what happened to the Harrison Special, but was never able to find it. It may still exist, but it would be so significantly modified, that I doubt anyone would recognise it as a 19.
I saw Ed Richter’s original chassis, it was full of cracks and un-raceable. The problem with these cars is that they were designed and built to minimum weight, with components that were not designed to last 3 years, let alone 40. It would be unsafe to drive an original 19 these days, even if one did exist, which I doubt it does. Ed’s was the closest you could come to a totally original car, but even he replaced the frame.
One interesting anecdote is that I was able to buy back all the Lotus 19 parts that were removed from my car by Bob McKee. Hence I acquired all the original suspension components plus some spares. It is some of these that I still have. Somewhere I have a full text that describes the history in detail.
I am afraid I have other priorities right now, such as selling the house. I am afraid photos are going to have to wait for a while, but let’s stay in touch.
PS I have copies of photos that Bob McKee took of the car when it left his shop.
Posted 15 October 2006 - 23:20
Another view of Dave Greenblatt's Lotus 19. Speed-Flex was a Safety Razor.
Posted 16 October 2006 - 00:40
Here are two shots I took at the Sundown Grand Prix at Mosport in 1965. Driver is Larry Reilly as mentioned in a previous post. Prep by P&G Motors...note the 'Portland' visible on the van. They were prominent in early 60's racing at Mosport.
So what's the deal? Note the slots in the bonnet and the relief for what is presumably a rad hose.
My earlier reference to Larry was 1964 so evidently he purchased Greenblatt's car mid-season. As noted previously, it was a non-starter due to an input shaft failure. Here at the Sundowner...race starts late in the afternoon and goes a couple of hours into the night...it didn't start, iirc.
Posted 16 October 2006 - 01:28
Another, poor quality though, picture of Dave Greenblatt's car in action.
Manfred: Dave Greenblatt says thank you for posting your pictures. He is sure that is his car as the hood slits were put in by him to cool his Harrison radiator. For the Corvette power.
Posted 16 October 2006 - 16:53
As noted above, I didn't see Dave Greenblatt in this car but it subsequently showed in Larry Reilly's hands. The bodywork was painted gold and the rondel in black...JPS livery reversed.
The older chap in coveralls was wrenching for the team. I droped by frequently to see if Larry had arrived to attend the car but with no luck...ultimately, the mechanic told me to 'bugger off, kid'.
Posted 16 October 2006 - 17:57
Posted 16 October 2006 - 23:02
Originally posted by David Birchall
OK, What happened to the Harrison Special?
I am assuming that you mean the J. Frank Harrison car for Lloyd Ruby. I don't know what happened to it, but I do know that I saw it win a SCCA Regional event in August, 1967, at the Wilmot Hills track driven by Orly Thornsjo.
Posted 17 October 2006 - 00:00
Anyone have entry lists for vintage events at Road America in 1985?
Posted 17 October 2006 - 07:52
As most of you know, at Laguna, Gurney won the first heat in his 19 with Penske second in the Cooper Spl. The second heat was won by Lloyd Ruby in a 19, with Penske again second, and o/a winner on aggregate. Gurney was a dnf in the second heat and Ruby was 4th in the first heat. He was, in my opinion, a very underrated race driver, and often showed his heels to the best "sporty car" drivers. He was, of course, a premier oval track racer who never had much luck at the Indy 500.
I can remember going early to Laguna on the Wednesday evening preceding the race to the Laguna track because we had heard that Gurney was bringing the Arciero Lotus 19 for a test run.
I remember that after the car was unloaded from the trailer (or transporter) he climbed in, did one warm-up lap, then promptly broke the track record on his second lap on half warm tires. I think he only did a few more laps at speed, and then came in and pronounced the car "ready". I had just witnessed an amazing performance from one of the truly great drivers of all time.
The Times GP (Riverside) was won (one heat only) by Penske with Hall second. Gurney was a dnf also in this race. I had seen Moss win at Mosport in that first Players race but these 2 races had a much larger entry and many of Europe's finest also took part.
At the time, I thought the race lap times were very impressive, but some 18 years later I went slightly faster in an old 71 "taxi-cab" Trans-Am camaro that weighed 3,000 lbs. and I was nowhere near the fastest car that wknd. Just shows you what the advance in race tires did for lap times.
Posted 17 October 2006 - 16:46
It seems that John Delane of Redondo Beach Ca. has #963 and Dave Helms of Boulder, Co. is restoring the Harrison spl.
I will contact John Delane and put him in touch with the present owners of the original frame for 963 and the suspension and gearbox parts.
Many thanks Vince
Posted 18 October 2006 - 21:55
Posted 19 October 2006 - 11:58
The Mosport Race was in 64 while Fong owned the car. Kolb had finished with the car in Naussa and through some transaction (?) Fong got it. Clark was under contract with Lotus and Ford at the time so if he was to race he needed a Ford powered Lotus. By that point in time the car had been backed into numerous trackside obstructions and Clark was not happy with how it drove. The decission was to pull the F1 champ to avoid any embarsement if winning was not a forgone conclution.
Top 2 photo's show it alone and with the Zerox Special, scroll to the bottom and there are 2 photo's that have been very helpful in the period correct restoration project.
Mentioned earlier was a Gold, aluminum bodied car (I will have to re-read the whole thread to absorb it). That was likely this car. Talking with Eisert a while back, he Nic named it the "Golden Cammode" back in the day (gold with blue accents in the beginning, red and while at a later date).
Lloyd, Eisert, Orly..... they all had wonderful stories of the car that should all be shared. We flew in Bo Barnes and him look the car over and give his memories as well. Great stories of the car while the body was being built while sitting next to the Scarab and the Chaparrel 1 while at Troutman-Barnes.
Some of the history / ownership trail is yet to be answered. I am sure some folks here could help with that project.
Thank you again David. I look forward to discussing this a good bit more.
Scuderia Rampante Inc.
Posted 19 October 2006 - 19:53
Dan Gurney's crippled Lotus 19 takes the checkered in the February 1962 Daytona Continental. This photo is proof that the car crossed the line straight as an arrow. I would assume it must have used the starter motor and not the gravity of the track to come across the line straight. Others claim it was done by pointing the car down the banking and coasting across. I feel if this was done the car would have to be lower on the track.
photo lent site: Willem Oosthoek.
Edited by Jerry Entin, 22 January 2012 - 22:47.
Posted 20 October 2006 - 00:54
Has anybody figured out the chassis # of the blue 19 in Alabama in the photo taken by Cynic?
Posted 20 October 2006 - 08:05
Originally posted by Tim Murray
I think that just about settles the arguments in this thread and this other thread. There is no way, surely, that that car can be moving under the influence of gravity alone. Thank you for finally solving that one, Jerry.
Hmmmm, I wouldn't quite get carried away with saying "no way" if you look carefully at the photo.
Posted 20 October 2006 - 16:57
" Finally the oil pressure gauge went to zero, the engine blew on the last bank before the finish line that was it. There was a lot of vibration, I stuck the clutch in and started coasting. Strangely, the engine was still running, even though there was a terrific vibration, and I had shut it off to make sure it stopped."
" I got out of the car, talked to the starter, and when he told me he was going to drop the flag I got back in the car and went across on the starter. I don't know whether the engine actually fired or not. It very well could have, since there was nothing wrong with the other three cylinders and the engine wasn't locked up. It was a Prestolite battery, just like the paper said. As a matter of fact, we've used that Prestolite battery for the last three or four races, we didn't just put it in for this race. And it sure did the job for us. Thanks, Mr. Prestolite."
Research by Willem Oosthoek, although for all of you to read on the internet free of charge, thanks to the tireless efforts of Bob Norton.
Posted 20 October 2006 - 17:17