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Case history: Lotus 19 Monte Carlo


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#201 Michael Oliver

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Posted 22 October 2006 - 13:17

Originally posted by David Birchall
Just to add a little twist to the discussion. After talking with John Maycock (who rebuilt #963 in the eighties) and John DeLane (who owns it now) it would seem that #963 acquired 19B uprights when it got it's 'first' Ford 289 engine (1963?) and those are the uprights fitted now. John Maycock got the uprights from McKee in the eighties when he recovered all the parts McKee had removed from the car. Are there more 19B uprights?


Has anybody figured out the chassis # of the blue 19 in Alabama in the photo taken by Cynic?


I have this car running a Buick engine for the 63 Players 200 and it is described as a 19B. But for the 1964 edition it had a Ford.

I think the blue 19 in Alabama (the Allan Taylor car?) is the Carveth car. I know there is some debate about the chassis number but there were only three cars fitted with Buicks if I am correct - the Grant car, the Columbosian car and the Carveth car. The Grant car switched to Chevy power around 63/64, the Columbosian car about the same time. But a Buick-engined car was still racing in Oct 64 in the hands of Stan Peterson, which I believe to be the Carveth car...

Does anybody know where the Publicker car went after its first owner? From a process of elimination, I have concluded either Tom Terrell or Dave Causey?

I note also that Charlie Kolb was the co-driver of the Publicker car at Sebring 61 when they practised but blew the engine and he also appears in the ownership chain for the J. Frank Harrison car, just before Fong. Did he ever own the Publicker car?

Also, we haven't mentioned much about the Zweifel and Vogele cars - did they stay in Europe for all their working lives?

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#202 RA Historian

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Posted 22 October 2006 - 13:48

Originally posted by Michael Oliver


IDoes anybody know where the Publicker car went after its first owner? From a process of elimination, I have concluded either Tom Terrell or Dave Causey? ?


The Terrell and Causey cars both were running in the upper MIdwest in 1962 on. First, the Terrell car. I first saw that at the 1962 Road America June Sprints. It had a 2.0 Climax. It was painted white with green stripes. Terrell ran that through '62 and then in 1963 sold it to Doug Thiem, who ran it for the balance of that year. Thiem kept the white but replaced the green stripes with red. After that, I do not know what happened to it.

The Causey car first showed up (to my attention) at the 1962 Road America 500. It was red, with blue plexiglass windscreen and headlight covers. Over the next few years it changed constantly. It was painted silver, then had a Ford V-8 put in place of the 2.5 Climax, then by 1965 was white with blue trim with much modified fenders. After 1965 I do not know what happened to it.

Contrary to a previous posting, these two cars were not the same car as they ran contemporaneously.

#203 Michael Oliver

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Posted 22 October 2006 - 13:59

Originally posted by RA Historian


The Terrell and Causey cars both were running in the upper MIdwest in 1962 on. First, the Terrell car. I first saw that at the 1962 Road America June Sprints. It had a 2.0 Climax. It was painted white with green stripes. Terrell ran that through '62 and then in 1963 sold it to Doug Thiem, who ran it for the balance of that year. Thiem kept the white but replaced the green stripes with red. After that, I do not know what happened to it.

The Causey car first showed up (to my attention) at the 1962 Road America 500. It was red, with blue plexiglass windscreen and headlight covers. Over the next few years it changed constantly. It was painted silver, then had a Ford V-8 put in place of the 2.5 Climax, then by 1965 was white with blue trim with much modified fenders. After 1965 I do not know what happened to it.

Contrary to a previous posting, these two cars were not the same car as they ran contemporaneously.


The Publicker car was white, but that is a tenuous connection I guess... Does anyone know what colour the Schechter car was? If it was red that might be a bit more interesting! The last appearance I think I have for Causey is Sept 4 1966, Road America 500 although it just says 'Lotus Ford' in the entry list, so could have been a 30 or 40 I suppose...

#204 RA Historian

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Posted 22 October 2006 - 16:09

Originally posted by Michael Oliver


The last appearance I think I have for Causey is Sept 4 1966, Road America 500 although it just says 'Lotus Ford' in the entry list, so could have been a 30 or 40 I suppose...


I was there and my recollection is that it was the 19, not a 30.

#205 Michael Oliver

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Posted 22 October 2006 - 19:45

Originally posted by RA Historian


I was there and my recollection is that it was the 19, not a 30.


Thanks Tom, that would make sense.

Re Schechter, Nassau 61 is the only reference I can find to him driving his 19 - are you aware of any other appearances?

Ditto Publicker, did he ever actually get to race his 19 in anger?

#206 RA Historian

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Posted 22 October 2006 - 21:32

Originally posted by Michael Oliver



Re Schechter, Nassau 61 is the only reference I can find to him driving his 19 - are you aware of any other appearances?


Page 208 of the Bahamas Speed Weeks book has a color photo of Schecter in the 19. It is a bit hard to tell the color as it could be either dark green or dark blue. Maybe this will help.

#207 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 23 October 2006 - 06:01

Michael,

I spoke to Stan Peterson last year and he confirmed his Lotus 19-Buick was the Carveth car.

Vince H.

#208 Michael Oliver

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Posted 23 October 2006 - 09:25

RA Historian: thanks re the colour reference - does anybody know if Schechter ran any more races in this car?

Vince: that's great, thanks! I had him down for either the Grant car or the Carveth car because of the Buick engine connection. Are you still in contact with him? What would be really interesting would be to find out who he bought it from (e.g. direct from Carveth or an owner in between?) and who he sold it to?

I have Don Stiever in a Buick-engined 19 Jul 28 '63, which is after my last recorded appearance for Carveth in his car and before Peterson's first appearance (which I have at present as Apr 26 1964). It could have been the Grant car but Grant raced it many times afterwards so this is perhaps unlikely (although he could have rented out the drive, I guess).

#209 RA Historian

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Posted 23 October 2006 - 11:58

Originally posted by Michael Oliver
It could have been the Grant car but Grant raced it many times afterwards so this is perhaps unlikely (although he could have rented out the drive, I guess).


My understanding is that Grant kept his car for several years before selling it to Jerry Hansen at the end of 1965. Hansen raced it for a while in 1966. It went to Dick Kantrud in 1967 and fron there the trail gets cold.

#210 Jerry Entin

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Posted 23 October 2006 - 12:47

Michael: Schechter entered his Lotus 19 at Geneva, Florida on November 11-12, 1961. It was probably his first appearance in the car. He was a DNS in the feature after blowing a head gasket in the prelim. Victory went to Huttinger's Lister/Chevy, followed by Chuck Cassel's Porsche RS-61 and Richard Macon's Cooper Monaco. Richard Macon has told me the Porsche was way quicker than his Cooper and he was throwing the tail of the Cooper out all race long and had a ball.

In 1962 Schechter entered his Lotus 19 at the Osceola GP in Florida. I am not sure of the results of that race. Before he acquired the Lotus 19 Schechter was considered a very good Porsche driver. He finished 2nd in the 1960 Sebring 12 hour race in the Brumos RS-60 Porsche. His co-drivers were Bob Holbert and Hal Fowler.
research Willem Oosthoek

#211 Jerry Entin

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Posted 23 October 2006 - 13:45

Posted Image
Gravity, the Final Chapter. After all the myths about Daniel Sexton Gurney's stationary Lotus 19 crossing the finish line at Daytona in 1962 with the help of gravity, here is a photo showing where gravity actually kicked in. Way past the start/finish line. Having taken the checkered, Dan looks back, waves his arm to alert upcoming traffic to make his intentions clear, and steers down the banking to make it to the infield.
photo lent site Willem Oosthoek-research Willem Oosthoek

#212 Michael Oliver

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Posted 24 October 2006 - 00:28

RA Historian: with the Grant car, I have him racing it approx Oct 62-Nov 65, then to Hansen. I think it is more likely the Don Stiver (got the spelling wrong in my earlier post!) car was the Carveth car, as it was also Buick-engined.

Jerry: thanks for all the info about Schechter, I have not managed to find anything about the Osceola GP in Florida but I guess that was relatively local for him, as he was a native of Miami, ISTR?

#213 Michael Oliver

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Posted 24 October 2006 - 17:05

Just made contact with Don Stiver, who confirms he drove the Carver car at the Cotati races, July 28th 1963. Apparently, it was a sort of "thanks" for the work he had done in fitting the Buick engine into the car.

Stiver also said that he drove the car the same year at the port of Stockton, CA but I don't know when this would have been - I have asked him for some more details.

#214 Jerry Entin

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Posted 24 October 2006 - 17:43

Michael: Schechter also drove a Lotus 11 before he drove the Porsche or the Lotus 19. It was White with two Blue stripes. He was from the Miami area. Richard Macon believed his Lotus 11 had a 1500cc FWB engine in it.

#215 Michael Oliver

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Posted 25 October 2006 - 15:00

Originally posted by RA Historian


My understanding is that Grant kept his car for several years before selling it to Jerry Hansen at the end of 1965. Hansen raced it for a while in 1966. It went to Dick Kantrud in 1967 and fron there the trail gets cold.


I have come across a Lotus 19 (no engine make noted) entered for the 1968 Road America 500, shared by Keith Hardy and C.E. "Chuck" Frederick. It retired after two laps. Do you know anything about this car and its drivers? Perhaps this is the Causey car?

Also, I have come across a Pete Woods from Huntingdon Beach, CA, who entered a Lotus Chevrolet in the '67 SCCA Nationals and the 68 ARRC at Riverside. Maybe this could be the next link in the chain for the ex-Grant/Hansen/Kantrud car?

#216 David Birchall

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Posted 25 October 2006 - 16:59

In the mid eighties I followed up on a lead from Tom Carstens and found a guy who was a musician in an amusement park who had the remains of what he claimed was the Carsten/Grant car. I invited John Maycock to join me in inspecting the remains and we found what seemed to be parts of three different 19s! Certainly some of the parts were from Grant's car including a body section which had a very peculiar scoop that appeared to have been made with the use of a saucepan as a mold....Photos of Grant's car showed this modification. We found numbers of other cars on the parts including the number of the car that Nethercutt owned on the bottom of the driver's seat.

I will contact John and will pick his brains about what we found.

#217 David Birchall

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Posted 27 October 2006 - 01:15

I just exchanged a couple of emails with John and he recalled that we decided it was the Nethercutt car, #955, at the time. Is there any recent history on Lotus 19 #955? And John did take photos but is in the middle of moving and cannot access them....

#218 Manfred Cubenoggin

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Posted 27 October 2006 - 14:56

Running out my complete archive of personal photos of the Lotus 19.

All photos B&W from Mosport.
All my Lotus 19 pix.
All rights reserved.

1962 Player's 200

Masten Gregory's car arrives. The ultimate
winner...and again at the GP in the fall!
Livery was pea green...UDT Laystall?
My first outing with my new Kodak camera.

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1962 Canadian GP

Gurney's stricken Lotus 19 is wheeled away.
Dan was soaked in sweat; on his back, from
his waist to his shoulders, it looked like
someone threw a bucket of water over him.
2 images

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1963 Player's 200

Denis Coad's Lotus 19. The 'Miss Whiz Special'
from Hollingshead. Dark green/white stripes.

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Graham Hill's Lotus 19...believed to be
Masten Gregory's car from the previous year.
Car is flanked by Sir John Whitmore's Elan
and Al Pease's MGB.
2 images

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Jerry Grant's Buick-powered Bardahl Lotus.
Yellow paint.
3 images

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Lloyd Ruby Lotus 19. Odd colour...sort of
a rosey-red/light magenta shade.
2 images

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1964 Player's 200

Norm Namerow Lotus 19 Ford 289 power.
Deep maroon with silver hightlights, irrc.
(Norm was a stout fellow and very fast.
Sadly lost to a heart attack in 1964;
the final corner at St. Jovite named for him.)
1 image

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1965 Player's 200

Jerry Grant Lotus 19/Chevy. Medium-deep
semi-metal flake green. Brutally fast
but very fragile.
2 images

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1965 Thanks Giving Weekend

Denis Coad's Lotus 19. Orange colour
with black stripe.
1 image

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Some bonus shots:

1963 Canadian GP

For you 'Pipes' fans
David Piper's Ferrari GTO
1 image

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Graham Hill's Brabham BT5
Listed in programme, irrc, but he drove
a Lotus 23 in the race.
1 image

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1964 Player's 200

For Chuck Brandt
A.J. Foyt's Scarab
3 images

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(now you see why i limited my photos to the paddock!)

For Bob Barg
Allen Grant's Cheetah
Yes, indeed, a fire, Bob!
1 image

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1965 Player's 200

For Chuck Brandt
George Wintersteen's Cooper Chevy
Know you've seen this one before but
wanted to say that I'm sure that the
stripe is sky blue over white.
1 image

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1965 Sundown GP Start

No Larry Reilly Lotus 19
Pretty sure the Sunbeam Alpine launching
is driven by George Eaton.
1 image

Posted Image

#219 Manfred Cubenoggin

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Posted 27 October 2006 - 15:27

Missed one.

1963 Player's 200

Augie Pabst Lotus 19 listed as being powered by a 2-litre CC.
1 image.

Posted Image

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#220 Michael Oliver

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Posted 27 October 2006 - 22:28

Wow, Manfred, your photos are a veritable treasure-trove of information!

A few points which come to mind straight away:

The Namerow car is very different to the Dailu-Lotus 19-Corvette of Lerch, so they must be different cars (they were both entered for, and practised for, the 64 Players 200).

Dennis Coad still had his car in 1965? Where does Vic Yachuk fit into all this, as I thought it had gone to him in 1964? Maybe Coad bought it back?

#221 Michael Oliver

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Posted 27 October 2006 - 22:30

Originally posted by David Birchall
I just exchanged a couple of emails with John and he recalled that we decided it was the Nethercutt car, #955, at the time. Is there any recent history on Lotus 19 #955? And John did take photos but is in the middle of moving and cannot access them....


David, this car was written off in 1964, so there shouldn't be a current owner, unless the wreckage was brought back to life...

#222 RA Historian

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Posted 27 October 2006 - 22:36

Originally posted by Michael Oliver


I have come across a Lotus 19 (no engine make noted) entered for the 1968 Road America 500, shared by Keith Hardy and C.E. "Chuck" Frederick. It retired after two laps. Do you know anything about this car and its drivers? Perhaps this is the Causey car?

Also, I have come across a Pete Woods from Huntingdon Beach, CA, who entered a Lotus Chevrolet in the '67 SCCA Nationals and the 68 ARRC at Riverside. Maybe this could be the next link in the chain for the ex-Grant/Hansen/Kantrud car?


Went and looked at some of my old stuff. I have a photo of Dick Kantrud racing the ex-Grant, ex-Hansen Lotus 19-Chev in June, 1968. That would seem to eliminate the Pete Woods entry as being this car.

As far as the Hardy/Frederick car, I draw a blank. It did run at the July, 1968, RA 500 but only lasted two laps. Unfortunately, I have no photo of it either on the track or in the paddock. Further, I simply do not recall it.

#223 RA Historian

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Posted 27 October 2006 - 22:41

Originally posted by Michael Oliver


David, this car was written off in 1964, so there shouldn't be a current owner, unless the wreckage was brought back to life...


We all know that this NEVER happens !!!!

#224 MGAdams

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Posted 27 October 2006 - 22:55

lovely pictures, any more of the Pease MGB? for another time, another thread.

#225 Michael Oliver

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Posted 28 October 2006 - 11:36

Originally posted by Michael Oliver


David, this car was written off in 1964, so there shouldn't be a current owner, unless the wreckage was brought back to life...


Well, I have to hold my hands up here and admit that I am mistaken! I have been told by RaceAnnouncer2003 that Chassis #955 was actually rebuilt in period and sold to Lew Florence, then to a Pete Nash in Seattle, hence it appeared in the pile of bits that David Birchall and John Maycock inspected in the 1980s in the Seattle area...

RA Historian: do you know anything of Keith Hardy and C.E. "Chuck" Frederick, e.g. where they were from and whether they may be still around. I found the names in a few other results but no info as to where they were from...

#226 RA Historian

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Posted 28 October 2006 - 17:49

Originally posted by Michael Oliver



RA Historian: do you know anything of Keith Hardy and C.E. "Chuck" Frederick, e.g. where they were from and whether they may be still around. I found the names in a few other results but no info as to where they were from...


I did a search of my photos yesterday to see if I had any of Hardy/Frederick in the Lotus 19, or any other car, but I do not. Back then I shot most of my film on McLaren, Hulme, Andretti, et al, and took very few shots of, no insult intended, the back markers, unless they were being lapped.

The 1968 entry list for the Road America 500 lists the entrant as being "F & H Racing, Denver, Colorado" with the drivers, "C.E. Frederick, Golden, Colo./Keith Hardy."

I have the vaguest recollection of this Lotus as possibly being the Harrison Special, after Orly Thornsjo had it, but I cannot vouch for that. Wish I could help more.

#227 Michael Oliver

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Posted 28 October 2006 - 22:21

Originally posted by RA Historian


I did a search of my photos yesterday to see if I had any of Hardy/Frederick in the Lotus 19, or any other car, but I do not. Back then I shot most of my film on McLaren, Hulme, Andretti, et al, and took very few shots of, no insult intended, the back markers, unless they were being lapped.

The 1968 entry list for the Road America 500 lists the entrant as being "F & H Racing, Denver, Colorado" with the drivers, "C.E. Frederick, Golden, Colo./Keith Hardy."

I have the vaguest recollection of this Lotus as possibly being the Harrison Special, after Orly Thornsjo had it, but I cannot vouch for that. Wish I could help more.


OK, many thanks, it's a lead at least as to where they were from... Does the entry list give any detail on engine make or capacity by any chance?

#228 RA Historian

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Posted 28 October 2006 - 22:34

Originally posted by Michael Oliver


OK, many thanks, it's a lead at least as to where they were from... Does the entry list give any detail on engine make or capacity by any chance?


All it says is "Lotus-Ford"

#229 Michael Oliver

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Posted 28 October 2006 - 23:38

Originally posted by RA Historian


All it says is "Lotus-Ford"


Great, thanks. Well it's a start in that it doesn't say Lotus-Climax, Lotus-Buick or Lotus-Chevy!!! Maybe rules out a few cars at least...

#230 RA Historian

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Posted 29 October 2006 - 01:28

Gotta look at the positive side!

#231 bradbury west

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Posted 29 October 2006 - 09:23

Michael, please check your PMs.

Roger Lund.

#232 Jerry Entin

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Posted 29 October 2006 - 12:14

Manfred: George Eaton says the picture of the Sunbeam is not him.

#233 Mark Campbell

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Posted 29 October 2006 - 17:17

Originally posted by Manfred Cubenoggin
Graham Hill's Lotus 19...believed to be
Masten Gregory's car from the previous year.

Posted Image


Thanks for sharing your 19 collection Manfred. These are the first shots I have seen of Grant's metallic green 19/Chevy. Also, great shots of Hill's 19 in '63. Seems to be some minor differences in the body work from Masten's car in 62. Does anyone have any other pictures of the Hill's 19 at Mosport?

Marco.

#234 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 31 October 2006 - 06:05

Aha!!!...I think I've finally got this image posting thing figured out! What a thrill!

Some images of the Nethercutt/Hahn/Tatom/Florence/Nash/Bargelt Lotus 19, s/n 955

1. A page from an article on the May 24, 1964 Player's Pacific at Westwood shows Dave Tatom in the car in the paddock...

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2. Same race, Dave is the fourth car in line...

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3. Same race, Dave is the third car in line...

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4. Same race, the Lotus after the crash...

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5. Pete Nash in the Lotus 19..."Pete traded the Corvette to Lew Florence for a Lotus 19, in which he had mixed success...Pete installed a Cobra 289 engine in the car...Six starts, two wins, one wreck and two blown engines! Repairing the Lotus enough to sell, he next raced a 289 Cobra..."

Posted Image

I have a couple of photos of Lew Florence in the car (somewhere!), but as I said to you, Michael, Mark Hovander should have lots!

Vince H.

#235 oldtransamdriver

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Posted 31 October 2006 - 07:06

The Alpine in the Sundown start - either Eppie Wietzes or Dennis Coad?

Robert Barg

#236 David Birchall

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Posted 31 October 2006 - 16:23

So finally we have closure on the history of #955--at least I think we do! Vince, (raceannouncer2003--we have done race announcing together a couple of times incidentally), pm'd me with the news that he had been emailed by the guy who is restoring the car now--Vince, may I suggest you email him a link to this thread? I think I will make a couple of phone calls before I give the name and location of the guy we met in the eighties--just in case :smoking:

#237 Doug Nye

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Posted 31 October 2006 - 22:28

GREAT stuff.

DCN

#238 David Birchall

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Posted 01 November 2006 - 03:08

Originally posted by David Birchall
So finally we have closure on the history of #955--at least I think we do! Vince, (raceannouncer2003--we have done race announcing together a couple of times incidentally), pm'd me with the news that he had been emailed by the guy who is restoring the car now--Vince, may I suggest you email him a link to this thread? I think I will make a couple of phone calls before I give the name and location of the guy we met in the eighties--just in case :smoking:


Well as usual I had the wrong end of the stick! I misunderstood Vince's email; the person who I met in 1983 still has the car. I just talked to him at length and his opening remark was "where have you been for the past 23 years?"! He asked that I keep his name etc quiet for now and I will of course honour that request. He has been approached by Jack Nethercutt to buy back the car but is declining until he has finished it. So if you know anyone who is thinking of building a #955 please tell them not to waste their time!

#239 Manfred Cubenoggin

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Posted 01 November 2006 - 14:45

To oldtransamdriver:

Hi, Bob!

As for the Alpine being driven by Eppie or Denis Coad, gosh, I wouldn't think so. Eppie had moved up considerably by this time, of course, and was driving the Comstock GT350's in 1965...not to mention getting over his Westwood Cooper-KC blow over! As for it being Denis, I really can't say...I just don't think so.

In 1965, George Eaton had not surfaced prominently...that would be the next year, 1966, when he showed in the Cobra 427 and he did a bully job in it, imo. When I took that pix, I really didn't know who was in the Sunbeam Alpine but after seeing George many times the following year, it struck me that the Alpine driver's appearance was very, very reminiscent of George Eaton. Apparently not since Jerry E has confirmed otherwise from George himself. I'm open to any suggestions, of course, but I just don't see it being either Weitzes or Coad.

Manfred
aka...Biff Shunter @ CMSHG...a man in search of an identity.

PS: How'd you like that Cheetah pix? Saw your post at the CMSHG and couldn't resist posting it here on TNF.

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#240 Michael Oliver

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Posted 01 November 2006 - 17:21

Perhaps someone may be able to clear something up about the final race at the Goodwood Revival meeting this year - the Madgwick Cup?

There were three Lotus 19s in the entry list in the programme, as follows:

car #12, Robert Brooks, chassis # 950 ex-UDT 2.5 litre Climax
car # 14, Kelvin Jones, chassis #953 ex-UDT 2.5 litre Climax
car #15, Otto Reedtz-Thott, chassis #952 ex-UDT 2-litre Climax

Now I was there and watched this race with my own eyes, but am having problems reconciling my memory of the race with the official result sheet issued by the organisers!

car #12, Brooks, finished 4th
car #14, Jones, retired after 6 laps, not sure of the reason
car #15, Reedtz-Thott is listed as a DNF but in a Lotus-Ford 23B. Now I am 99.99% certain that he was in a 19 because he crashed it into the chicane on the last lap, scattering all the flowers and bits of polystyrene all over the track. I recall seeing the car in parc ferme, looking somewhat sorry for itself.
car #16 is listed as Marshal Bailey, driving a Lotus-Climax 19 (car #16 in the entry list was Chris Clarkson in a Lotus-Ford 23B) and he is said to have finished 14th.

So my question is this: have they simply mixed up the cars of Reedtz-Thott and Bailey, or was there a fourth 19 racing, driven by Bailey? Perhaps one of you has notes about this or even a photo or two, as I only have shots of the front two rows taking off from the start.

#241 David McKinney

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Posted 01 November 2006 - 20:25

Can't help with that OTMH Michael - I'll have a look at my notes a bit later
I can say however that the fourth-placed car, although entered in the name of Robert Brooks, was in fact driven by Rob Wilson
And, like you, I'm sure I saw the Danish gentleman putting his 19 into the chicane

#242 Ray Bell

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Posted 01 November 2006 - 20:35

Originally posted by Michael Oliver
Perhaps someone may be able to clear something up about the final race at the Goodwood Revival meeting this year - the Madgwick Cup?

There were three Lotus 19s in the entry list in the programme, as follows:

car #12, Robert Brooks, chassis # 950 ex-UDT 2.5 litre Climax
car # 14, Kelvin Jones, chassis #953 ex-UDT 2.5 litre Climax
car #15, Otto Reedtz-Thott, chassis #952 ex-UDT 2-litre Climax.....


Okay, so which one was dug out of the concrete?

#243 David McKinney

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Posted 01 November 2006 - 22:17

I can confirm Wilson (in the Brooks car) and Reedtz-Thott both drove 19s
Bailey was in a 23, though whether he took over Clarkson's car or just the entry I do not know
I don't remember the third 19 (Jones) though it does appear on the official timesheets
Seems the Goodwood paperwork slipped up regarding the Reedtz-Thott and Bailey entries

#244 Ray Bell

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Posted 01 November 2006 - 23:21

I can absolutely guarantee that the third UDT 19 was not there!

Nor will it ever be...

#245 David McKinney

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Posted 02 November 2006 - 06:22

Originally posted by Ray Bell
I can absolutely guarantee that the third UDT 19 was not there!

My understanding is that 950 went to the USA in 1961, 952 became the Rosebud Team car, and 953 stayed in the UK with Mike Pendleton and later George Pitt.

Having said that, I don't know where Michael got those Goodwood chassis numbers from - they weren't in the programme

#246 Michael Oliver

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Posted 02 November 2006 - 09:52

David: Thanks, I was hoping you might jump in here and clear up who was driving what - I think the organisers had a bad day with their results sheets!

Ray: do tell about how a 19 ended up in the concrete...my ID of 950 being the Brooks car came from an earlier post by Kelvin Jones (post #15). I don't personally know whether this is correct or not but he attributed it to Terry Buffum in the USA, then to Brooks.

On the face of it, there are three ex-UDT cars competing here in the UK and they were all at Goodwood...as described in my earlier post!

Can we get to the bottom of whether the Matich car/wreck could have gone to the US after its 65 shunt, or whether 950 was sold directly by UDT to Buffum or what? Just to add to the confusion, the Monterey Historics programme (can't remember which year) listed the chassis number of Brooks' car as '1901'. Go figure...!

This again calls into question whether the Matich car was ever a pukka 19 with a chassis number or just a bitza put together by Tony Robinson & co from parts. Does Frank Matich have any documentation that he could refer to by any chance?

The plot thickens...

#247 Ray Bell

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Posted 02 November 2006 - 11:32

What Frank told me when I asked him about this was that Stirling Moss saw the car and was appaled at the nature of what had been sent. It definitely came from UDT, but I've forgotten the stature of the car.

And it definitely finished up in concrete. Marc Schagen confirms this, and I feel sure you would know Marc...

Hang on a minute... it's '65 shunt? We're talking about a whole new animal here. That was a much modified chassis, not the UDT chassis, which was bundled up much earlier. 1963 if memory serves.

#248 Mark Campbell

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Posted 02 November 2006 - 13:24

Originally posted by David McKinney

My understanding is that 950 went to the USA in 1961 .......


A small correcction as the discussion shifts to Chassis 950 which went to America for Moss at Riverside and Laguna Seca in October of 1960. And again at Riverside and Laguna in October 1961. Moss was also with Gurney at Nassau in December 61. I think this is where Michael and I would agree the trail starts to cool . . .

Marco.

#249 David McKinney

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Posted 02 November 2006 - 15:36

My information is that Moss drove a different UDT-Laystall 19 in 1961 (number unknown) and that 950 was already in US ownership by then
But, as I may have said before, I'm by no means certain about any of this

#250 Allen Brown

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Posted 02 November 2006 - 17:07

Did someone ask about Charlie Kolb and the ex-Harrison Special Lotus 19?

Kolb brought it out of a two-year retirement to win a SCCA race at Fernandina Beach, FL, on 17 Apr 1966. It was then called the Schroeder Spl but CP&A note that it's a Lotus 19 with a 289 Ford engine. (CP&A 7 May 1966 p6)

Allen