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Case history: Lotus 19 Monte Carlo


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#251 Mark Campbell

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Posted 02 November 2006 - 17:40

If UDT950 was sold in 1961, when do you think it could have been?

Three UDT 19's at Aintree 26 Apr 61 (Moss/Taylor/Allison).
Two UDT 19's at Silverstone 6 May 61 (Moss/Allison) The third must have left for Canada per Mosport entry below.
Two UDT 19's at Crystal Palace 21 May 61 (Taylor/Parkes) Not run do to wire wheel failure by Taylor in practice.

One UDT 19 at Mosport 24 Jun 61 (Moss)
Two UDT 19's at Mosport 30 Sep 61 (Moss, Gendebien)
Two UDT 19's at Riverside 15 Oct 61 (Moss, Gendebien)
Two UDT 19's at Lagana 22 Oct 61 (Moss Gendebien)

Two UDT 19's entered at USAC events through to Laguna 21 Oct 1962

Is there any record to support the third UDT 19 coming to America?

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#252 Michael Oliver

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Posted 02 November 2006 - 17:59

Originally posted by Ray Bell
What Frank told me when I asked him about this was that Stirling Moss saw the car and was appaled at the nature of what had been sent. It definitely came from UDT, but I've forgotten the stature of the car.

And it definitely finished up in concrete. Marc Schagen confirms this, and I feel sure you would know Marc...

Hang on a minute... it's '65 shunt? We're talking about a whole new animal here. That was a much modified chassis, not the UDT chassis, which was bundled up much earlier. 1963 if memory serves.


Ray

I seem to be missing something here, you are referring to Marc Schagen (who I understand is the one of three joint Historic Lotus Register registrars for the Lotus 23) as if he has been posting regularly on this thread...please enlighten us?! Was he a witness to the Matich car being entombed then?

The second chassis was, according to an email I received (and posted on this thread) from Matich's mechanic at the time, a replacement 19 chassis from Lotus. So I guess there are two chassis to be accounted for - the first crash (at Warwick Farm?), do we know what happened to this chassis?; the second crash (not sure where/when?), the chassis was entombed in concrete (in Australia?). Could either have been found and revived?

#253 Ray Bell

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Posted 02 November 2006 - 20:02

No, Michael, I don't think Marc has posted on this thread... or anywhere on the forum... but I think he has read this thread some long time ago... I mention him because I assumed (correctly, I see...) that you would know him...

So yes, he's the one you mention. However, his interest in things Lotus goes much deeper than 23s.

The Matich Lotus 19 chassis was crashed at Warwick Farm while being warmed up by Bruce Richardson, who was Frank's mechanic at the time. He was doing this to save Frank time as they had two or three cars they were working with that day. This is the one that was entombed.

The '19B' chassis was then purchased, probably paid for by Laurie O'Neill, whose name henceforth was kept on the car as a co-entrant. It was continually modified, sporting Brabham suspension components and a Hewland gearbox as Matich kept on developing it alongside the Brabham Tasman car he was running.

In June 1965 this car was bundled up at Lakeside on practice day. The Australian Tourist Trophy was being held at Lakeside that year and this was a title Matich considered important, so he was entered to run it in a minor race at the Gold Star meeting as a shakedown for the big event in November.

I have no idea what happened to this car. Matich's deal with Total Oil fell apart when this crash took place, they sold the Brabham to Red Dawson in New Zealand and, it's said, were aghast at the stockpile of spares Matich had on hand that they had been billed for while running that car.

So whether this chassis ever ventured anywhere, I simply don't know. I would think it highly unlikely, as the Lotus 19 was a spent force in late 1965, wasn't it? Even if it had been the best one in the world, was it worth shipping a bent chassis to America or elsewhere when a McLaren could be had? And when it was modified anyway?

And even if it had, it simply wasn't the UDT car anyway.

#254 Michael Oliver

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Posted 02 November 2006 - 21:59

Originally posted by Ray Bell
No, Michael, I don't think Marc has posted on this thread... or anywhere on the forum... but I think he has read this thread some long time ago... I mention him because I assumed (correctly, I see...) that you would know him...

So yes, he's the one you mention. However, his interest in things Lotus goes much deeper than 23s.

The Matich Lotus 19 chassis was crashed at Warwick Farm while being warmed up by Bruce Richardson, who was Frank's mechanic at the time. He was doing this to save Frank time as they had two or three cars they were working with that day. This is the one that was entombed.

The '19B' chassis was then purchased, probably paid for by Laurie O'Neill, whose name henceforth was kept on the car as a co-entrant. It was continually modified, sporting Brabham suspension components and a Hewland gearbox as Matich kept on developing it alongside the Brabham Tasman car he was running.

In June 1965 this car was bundled up at Lakeside on practice day. The Australian Tourist Trophy was being held at Lakeside that year and this was a title Matich considered important, so he was entered to run it in a minor race at the Gold Star meeting as a shakedown for the big event in November.

I have no idea what happened to this car. Matich's deal with Total Oil fell apart when this crash took place, they sold the Brabham to Red Dawson in New Zealand and, it's said, were aghast at the stockpile of spares Matich had on hand that they had been billed for while running that car.

So whether this chassis ever ventured anywhere, I simply don't know. I would think it highly unlikely, as the Lotus 19 was a spent force in late 1965, wasn't it? Even if it had been the best one in the world, was it worth shipping a bent chassis to America or elsewhere when a McLaren could be had? And when it was modified anyway?

And even if it had, it simply wasn't the UDT car anyway.


Ray

I have to be honest and say that I wasn't familiar with Marc's role but I Googled him before I replied to your post, as it seemed that he was perhaps someone I should know...and clearly he is!

I can see your point about it not being the UDT car, although it is the contiuous chain of ownership that would be considered important - after all I suppose most of the components from the UDT car that could be salvaged were put onto the new chassis. It is a bit like Lotus 72/5, AFAIK the rear bulkhead was pretty much all that was salvageable yet the car that was rebuilt using it still carries that chassis number...

Why on earth entomb a chassis in concrete, rather than just cut it up and put it in a skip? Was it symbolic, a bit like burying Babs in Pendine Sands after Parry Thomas got killed in it?

Re the second Matich 19 chassis, would you by any chance be able to ask Frank if he has any recollection of what happened to it? It would be very interesting to find out. There are many examples of cars which were described as total write-offs at the time which it later transpired were rebuilt and sold on.

#255 Ray Bell

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Posted 02 November 2006 - 22:14

Yes, it's possible some of the goodies from the UDT car lived on...

Front uprights, perhaps, but not front brakes, Frank was very much into increasing brake size at the time. Perhaps pedals? Rack? Depends on what was damaged. Rear bodywork is a 'maybe', but in modified form. Certainly the engine, but you really can't count an engine, can you?

The gearbox was changed, the whole rear of the car was changed.

I will see if Bruce Richardson knows anything about it. Frank is a bit harder to talk to. I really should do a story about this car for Fast That's Past in Motor Racing Australia, then we'd have more of the answers.

As for the old chassis, it was just among the rubbish that was used to fill in a basement or a swimming pool or something. Marc can certainly tell you more.

I will bring this to his attention...

#256 BT 35-8

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Posted 02 November 2006 - 22:54

I need to add a few items,

About 10 years ago Kevin Whittle from the HLR in the U.K. contacted me in regard to sorting out the Matich 19 , I rang Frank and we spent about an hour discussing the whole matter, this was then all reported in an issue of the Historic Lotus Register newsletter.

Frank advised me , he discussed with Stirling buying the car that Stirling was using in the USA at that time , from memory Frank had talked to Stirling whilst Stirling was in the USA , and Stirling advised Frank ,who wished to have the car shipped directly from the states to Australia that the car was pretty tired and it would be best for the car to return to the U.K for a rebuild and then be sent out fom the U.K.
The car duly arrived and Frank was not happy with the state of preparation and he called Stirling who intervened.

The last I have knowledge of the Lotus 19B , is as a wreck on the roof of Elfin Sportscars in Adelaide , where it had donated very few bits to the Elfin/Traco/Olds.
Frank and I went into how many bits were used , and Frank felt very little was usable , Gearbox , driveshafts and some other minor odds and sods. The rest of the car was junk. The Climax FPF went to service the Brabham .

Frank did not think his car ever carried a chassis plate , he had no memory of ever seing one on the car, but at that time it was of no importance.

The original Lotus 19 chassis was long gone.

Bryan Miller.

#257 Michael Oliver

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Posted 03 November 2006 - 00:20

Originally posted by David McKinney
My information is that Moss drove a different UDT-Laystall 19 in 1961 (number unknown) and that 950 was already in US ownership by then
But, as I may have said before, I'm by no means certain about any of this


David, there are some differences between the two cars - the most obvious being the roll-hoops (wide, Heath-Robinson lash-up device on the 1960 Riverside/Laguna car and 'paper-clip'-style hoop in the 1961 races,with a cut back screen and tonneau cover but I guess for reasons which have already been touched on this doesn't really amount to differences which would suggest two different cars. What I do know is that the Moss car was fitted with a Queerbox when it raced in the US in 1960, whereas the car which competed in the same US races in 1961 had a Colotti but presumably this wasn't a particularly difficult conversion and was probably carried out in the interests of reliability/longevity.

#258 Michael Oliver

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Posted 03 November 2006 - 00:38

Originally posted by BT 35-8
I need to add a few items,

About 10 years ago Kevin Whittle from the HLR in the U.K. contacted me in regard to sorting out the Matich 19 , I rang Frank and we spent about an hour discussing the whole matter, this was then all reported in an issue of the Historic Lotus Register newsletter.

Frank advised me , he discussed with Stirling buying the car that Stirling was using in the USA at that time , from memory Frank had talked to Stirling whilst Stirling was in the USA , and Stirling advised Frank ,who wished to have the car shipped directly from the states to Australia that the car was pretty tired and it would be best for the car to return to the U.K for a rebuild and then be sent out fom the U.K.
The car duly arrived and Frank was not happy with the state of preparation and he called Stirling who intervened.

The last I have knowledge of the Lotus 19B , is as a wreck on the roof of Elfin Sportscars in Adelaide , where it had donated very few bits to the Elfin/Traco/Olds.
Frank and I went into how many bits were used , and Frank felt very little was usable , Gearbox , driveshafts and some other minor odds and sods. The rest of the car was junk. The Climax FPF went to service the Brabham .

Frank did not think his car ever carried a chassis plate , he had no memory of ever seing one on the car, but at that time it was of no importance.

The original Lotus 19 chassis was long gone.

Bryan Miller.


Thanks Bryan

It is very interesting that you say he discussed buying the car that Stirling was using in the USA, that the car was 'tired' and that he had originally been planning to ship it back from the USA.

The car sold to Matich certainly had the external oil/water pipes (oil on left, water on right) that are clearly visible on Moss's car in the late 1961 US races, but not on Gendebien's car in the same races.

The only thing is that the Moss car had a Colotti by late 61, whereas the Matich car came with a Queerbox, also the bodywork was different (rear wheel cut-outs, whereas the car raced by Moss in late 61 still had the fared-in rear wheels). However, I think this can be explained by the fact that UDT would have wanted to keep their Colottis to themselves and also their best sets of bodywork, so all the old, tired c**p went on Matich's car, hence his complaint when he received it, it was probably more tired than when Moss said it was tired originally and recommended sending it back to the UK for 'freshening'!!!

#259 Ray Bell

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Posted 03 November 2006 - 00:38

Bryan... you're probably right about the collection of tubes finishing up on the roof at Elfins... but little more than the odd rose joint might have been used in the new, car, I would think. Perhaps calipers? The gearbox wasn't, I'm sure that a ZF box was used in the Traco, while there was a Hewland that probably wouldn't cope with the V8 in the Lotus.

The deal to buy the car was done in England by Bruce Richardson... I've just got off the phone to him. He said that Laurie O'Neill bought the 19B from Total as he prepared to put Frank into the new car. My mistake thinking he was a part of the 19B from earlier.

Stirling drove the original 19 at Warwick Farm and pronounced it substandard, it wasn't a matter of Frank calling him in for the purpose.

And I can't see any definitive way of saying that the engine from the 19, which was a 2.6, you must remember, went into 'the Brabham.'

For a start, Matich no longer raced the Brabham, it was sold to Red Dawson. Secondly, it was probably part of Laurie O'Neill's purchase.

The original 19 chassis went to Ray Hopwood, a friend of Frank's. I think it was he who buried it under his house after deciding he wasn't able to use it, which had been his intention.

Bruce Richardson is going to scour his photo collection, he remembers there's one of him rivetting panels onto the 19B chassis after it arrived from England, and there are others.

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#260 Michael Oliver

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Posted 03 November 2006 - 00:39

Originally posted by Allen Brown
Did someone ask about Charlie Kolb and the ex-Harrison Special Lotus 19?

Kolb brought it out of a two-year retirement to win a SCCA race at Fernandina Beach, FL, on 17 Apr 1966. It was then called the Schroeder Spl but CP&A note that it's a Lotus 19 with a 289 Ford engine. (CP&A 7 May 1966 p6)

Allen


Allen

In the midst of all this discussion of the Matich car, your post has almost been overlooked! Almost...but not quite! Good find...

#261 Ray Bell

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Posted 03 November 2006 - 00:43

As far as I'm concerned, this part of the thread is not a discussion about the Matich car, rather it's a discussion about an entity that's being represented as the ex-Matich car. Which it's not.

And another small point... the Richardson crash at Warwick Farm, this was apparently caused by the failure of a magnesium rear upright that had newly come from England for the car. The casting was very thin due to core misalignment, Bruce thinks they never used those uprights again.

#262 Michael Oliver

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Posted 03 November 2006 - 01:35

Originally posted by Ray Bell
As far as I'm concerned, this part of the thread is not a discussion about the Matich car, rather it's a discussion about an entity that's being represented as the ex-Matich car. Which it's not.

And another small point... the Richardson crash at Warwick Farm, this was apparently caused by the failure of a magnesium rear upright that had newly come from England for the car. The casting was very thin due to core misalignment, Bruce thinks they never used those uprights again.


Well, actually Ray, sorry to be picky but there are two separate things here:

1) We are discussing the Matich car, the chassis number of which is unknown, it appears never to have had one...
2) There has also been some discussion of an entity currently in existence which is claimed to be chassis #950 and could very well be...

BTW, just one small point which has cropped up in something I read in CP's profile of the 19. It was profiling the Moss car in 1960 and said that the 'fiberglass body has inner panels of aluminum sheeting'. There was some discussion earlier in the thread about the prototype (e.g. the Moss car) having aluminum panels but this would seem to suggest otherwise...

#263 BT 35-8

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Posted 03 November 2006 - 01:45

Ray,
Yes you are correct , the Climax FPF wouldn't have been of any use to Frank.

I had been told of the existance of the old 19 frame years ago , and also that it had been decided it was beyond hope.

In the vain hope of trying to come up with definite proof of the Lotus ch. no. I spent some time with the late John Dawson-Damer , as he had 3 queerboxes , the estate still does to my knowledge , and we went through trying to figure out if one was ex Matich , as if I remember correctly the queerboxes have serial numbers and we felt that may provide a clue , however to no avail , as Kevin Whittle had listings of the gearbox numbers fitted to the chassis at build, that may have only helped if nobody had swapped boxes from car to car at the factory during rebuilds , so that became a bit of a lost cause as well.

Bryan.

#264 Ray Bell

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Posted 03 November 2006 - 02:05

Originally posted by Michael Oliver
Well, actually Ray, sorry to be picky but there are two separate things here:

1) We are discussing the Matich car, the chassis number of which is unknown, it appears never to have had one...
2) There has also been some discussion of an entity currently in existence which is claimed to be chassis #950 and could very well be.....


Be as picky as you wish, Michael... it's all right with me, as long as we get to the bottom of things...

What you are suggesting here, then, is that Matich was sold either a spare chassis, a chassis that was knocked up by the UDT guys or one that escaped the eagle eye of the taxation people?

I think it's unlikely that the car would have arrived in Australia without a chassis plate. Customs would have been all over it, surely, and it would have raised questions when Mossy said it wasn't as it should have been.

And Bryan, were any of the gearbox numbers among those that UDT would have had in the period?

#265 Michael Oliver

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Posted 04 November 2006 - 01:18

Originally posted by Ray Bell


Be as picky as you wish, Michael... it's all right with me, as long as we get to the bottom of things...

What you are suggesting here, then, is that Matich was sold either a spare chassis, a chassis that was knocked up by the UDT guys or one that escaped the eagle eye of the taxation people?

I think it's unlikely that the car would have arrived in Australia without a chassis plate. Customs would have been all over it, surely, and it would have raised questions when Mossy said it wasn't as it should have been.

And Bryan, were any of the gearbox numbers among those that UDT would have had in the period?


Ray

I have to admit from Bryan's post #256 it looks quite possible that the Matich car was indeed the 'Moss car' chassis #950. Which might call into question other claims on that # but this needs a lot more work still!

#266 BT 35-8

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Posted 04 November 2006 - 01:54

Michael,

Have you access to the HLR newsletter from years ago?? I don't even know if I have a copy will look.

I will search and see if I retained my handwritten scribbles from the telephone interview with Frank, he ended up driving my Matich SR4B at Wakefield Park in a demonstration some time after the 19/19B stuff was done.

Frank thought the queerbox was quite good , once they figured their way around it , said it needed to be very accurately set up and with good internals.

Ray , John Dawson-Damers queerboxes , 1 is in a car and came with that car , 1 was purchased from the U.K many years prior and the 3rd was not complete , but nearly so , and we ended up deciding that none of his were from the Lotus 19/19B.

Michael , what is certain was Frank's advice that Stirling advised that the car be returned to the U.K and not sent direct to Australia from the USA.

Bryan Miller.

#267 cstlhn

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Posted 05 November 2006 - 01:55

The first photo shows two Lotus 19s (#19 & #8) for Gurney and Grant. The second photo is listed as the Lotus Ferrari 19 for Innes Ireland. I do not see this car mentioned in the serial number list?

Posted Image

Posted Image

Thanks to Micheal Oliver for peaking my interest in Lotus 19s.

Cheers, David

#268 David Birchall

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Posted 05 November 2006 - 02:06

Ireland is driving the Team Rosebud car serial #952. It was essentially written off at Seattle Raceway in 1962(?). I hope to have access to previously unpublished photos of the car immediately after the crash.

#269 cstlhn

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Posted 05 November 2006 - 02:45

Originally posted by David Birchall
Ireland is driving the Team Rosebud car serial #952. It was essentially written off at Seattle Raceway in 1962(?). I hope to have access to previously unpublished photos of the car immediately after the crash.


My photos were taken at LA Times GP in late 1964?

David

#270 David Birchall

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Posted 05 November 2006 - 03:59

Yes, my 1962 date was more or less a guess--Vince, are you out there? When did Ireland crash the 19 at Seattle?

#271 Ted Walker

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Posted 05 November 2006 - 06:07

I thought that the Rosebud 19 Ferrari ended up in the UK in the late 70s.This and a second 19 were owned by 2 brothers over in the east of England.

#272 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 05 November 2006 - 06:12

I'm just back from watching the Vancouver Canucks hockey game on TV!

The Seattle Times, September 29, 1963

"...Innes Ireland remained in a Seattle hospital today with a hip injury suffered during an accident Friday (September 27, 1963) in which his Lotus racing machine was demolished. His condition was described by hospital attendants as 'fairly satisfactory.' Ireland had turned in a qualifying time of 1:29 before the mishap..." (he would have been sixth on the grid)

I believe he hit a marshall's car, a 300SL or something. I think Pete Lovely has some stories about Ireland's antics at the Seattle hospital, as you can imagine!

Vince H.

#273 David McKinney

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Posted 05 November 2006 - 07:47

Originally posted by Ted Walker
I thought that the Rosebud 19 Ferrari ended up in the UK in the late 70s.This and a second 19 were owned by 2 brothers over in the east of England.

That's the replacement Rosebud car, also with Ferrari engine and raced by Ireland. It had the same chassis number as the wreck but I'm not sure how much else. Certainly not the frame

#274 bradbury west

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Posted 05 November 2006 - 09:57

Originally posted by Ted Walker
I thought that the Rosebud 19 Ferrari ended up in the UK in the late 70s.This and a second 19 were owned by 2 brothers over in the east of England.


Two farming brothers in Lincolnshire IIRC in the late 1980s, as an 11 owner whom I knew had seen them whilst looking for something else. I think one still had the V12. They seemed to have lots of stuff, according to the reports.

Roger Lund

#275 David Birchall

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Posted 05 November 2006 - 15:39

Originally posted by David McKinney

That's the replacement Rosebud car, also with Ferrari engine and raced by Ireland. It had the same chassis number as the wreck but I'm not sure how much else. Certainly not the frame


No, certainly not the frame judging by the photos of the car I saw post wreck!

#276 Michael Oliver

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Posted 05 November 2006 - 17:57

Bryan: Sorry don't have old HLR newsletters! Your notes from talking to Frank would be interesting. Re Queerbox numbers, the UDT 19s would be likely to have low numbers, I believe 953 had case number 29 and 952 case no 27. Unfortunately, I don't know about 950...but could maybe find out.

David: lovely photos! I notice the 'new' Rosebud Lotus 19-Ferrari doesn't have the external oil pipes, although the 'old' one had lost them as well by Nassau 62.

Ted/Roger: the name of the farming brothers you are trying to think of is Higgins, I think? What was the other 19 that they had, does anybody know or recall? I have come across some pictures of one of the cars at the Higgins's after rebuilding.

I would think the new Rosebud car having the same chassis number of 952 would be for the purposes of paperwork, not much else!

#277 bradbury west

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Posted 05 November 2006 - 20:26

Michael, you are right, Higgins it was.

I only know what my buddy told me when he went up there. They had several other Lotuses of various vintages, incl one in the front room etc., classic bachelor boys.

I also understood that in those days there were reluctant to part with cars.

RL

#278 Ray Bell

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 05:45

Originally posted by Michael Oliver
I have to admit from Bryan's post #256 it looks quite possible that the Matich car was indeed the 'Moss car' chassis #950. Which might call into question other claims on that # but this needs a lot more work still!


Marc Schagen has been in touch with me after I e.mailed him...

He's reluctant to be drawn into posting here, but he tells me that Matich and others confirmed that the car had a chassis number. Definitely.

Unfortunately, he says, Frank never bothered to put that number on his Warwick Farm entry forms. I doubt that he put them on any others, either. Marc would have had access to those entry forms at one stage, I would suggest.

#279 John Ellacott

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 07:54

Ray, the Elfin Traco Olds had a Hewland gearbox when new as can be seen in my photo taken in the Peterbilt yard at Alexandria. It may have been changed later :wave:

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#280 olav glasius

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 10:33

Hi, I am new to this thread .
I own ch.nr 962 and want to ask if someone of this group can help me with its history.
Kelvin Jones gave me following owners Rod Garveth,Bev Spencer,Stan Peterson,Frank Crane,
Lee Guitier,Don Orosco,Spehen Griswold. After Stephen it went to England to Chris Drake
who sold it in th 80 ties to the German museum Rosso Bianco.
This museum is closed now and the entire collection sold to a friend of mine in Holland
who sold this 19 to me for my Lotus collection . ( 25 at the moment)
I like to bring it back to its original livery/colors .Does anybody have a clue
and of course I like to have as much info as possible on this car.

#281 olav glasius

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 10:37

About Goodwood, Kelvin Jones car wasnt ready he told me,so he didnt enter the race.
Otto s car crashed but fortunately the concrete blocks are made of polystyrene.
So there were only two 19 s . Robert Brooks didn t drive his car but lent it to a friend to drive.
( I entered a Lotus 23 and Bugatti GP type 54)

#282 Allen Brown

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 11:17

Welcome back Olav.

I can't help you much on this but it's Rob Carverth, not Garveth. He was from San Carlos California.

Allen

#283 olav glasius

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 22:55

Hi,

Sorry but you are wrong his name was Rod Carveth.
Type his name on Google and you see you are wrong.


Someone of this group gave me the telnr of Stan Peterson
(Third owner) I spoke to him and he will send me some info,
but he hasnt much as he lost his house and archive with the
big woodfire in Oakland some years ago.

I also found that the car was run in the Los Angelos Times
Grand Prix at Riverside in 1964. The car had racenumber 54.
Does someone has pics of that race?

There is one b/w pic on the site www.Tamsoldracecarsite.net
of a race in 1963 at Riverside.

Still I don t know yet for shure if the car of Rod Carveth
was chnr 962 or as mentioned in this thread 964
Mine is 962

#284 David Birchall

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 23:04

My info shows #964 as the Coundley car-with wire wheels-race in the UK but going to Terry Buffum in California

#285 Allen Brown

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 23:39

Originally posted by olav glasius
Kelvin Jones gave me following owners Rod Garveth,...

Originally posted by Allen Brown
it's Rob Carverth, not Garveth

Originally posted by olav glasius
Sorry but you are wrong his name was Rod Carveth.
Type his name on Google and you see you are wrong.

Good to see we're vehemently agreeing with each other! :D

Allen

#286 olav glasius

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 23:41

Thanks David,

It is more then 40 years ago,so it is logic that some people
mix ch.nrs. I hope more can confirm that this car is the
Rod Carveth one. On the site mentioned in my previous post
there are much more 19 s . To find the pic of Rod.you have to go to
Other Lotus, Click Frank Crane, Click Rod Garveth.
Maybe someone can make a list again of all 19 s with all owners known

#287 olav glasius

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 23:46

I love British humour,Allen.
Please spare a minute and go to the site just mentioned

#288 Allen Brown

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 08:54

Originally posted by olav glasius
To find the pic of Rod.you have to go to
Other Lotus, Click Frank Crane, Click Rod Garveth.

We both seem to be having trouble with this name!

I completely agree with you that it is Carveth, not Garveth nor Carverth. That's how we've both been trying to spell it.

You may find this thread useful as it mentions him winning a divisional title in his Lotus 19 in 1963.

Allen

#289 RA Historian

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 13:21

On the web site www.can-amcarsltd.com there is a car for sale that is advertised as a Genie Mk. 8 replica. In the sketchy description it says that it was built from Genie and Lotus 19 parts. Does this open an all new can of worms?

As an aside, they are also selling the former Rosso Bianco Shadow DN-2, but have the car's description completely fouled up, so that does make one wonder about the accuracy of anything that is on there.....

#290 cstlhn

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 16:22

Can someone help me identify this photo? Nassau 1965.

Posted Image

Thanks, David

#291 Ted Walker

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 16:57

Its the Porsche 904/6 Sptder driven by Charlie Kolb

#292 Ted Walker

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 16:58

I mean SPYDER !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

#293 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 21:22

RA Historian (sorry, what's your name again?)

As for the car advertised as a Genie Mk. 8 replica, the ad says:

"based on the best features of a Genie MK8 and a Lotus 19", so maybe it wasn't built from Lotus 19 parts. Would this be the Don Skogmo car? Scott Beckett co-drove with him in what was called a Genie Mk. 8 at Road America a few times. And Skogmo drove what was called a Genie Mk. 8 in the USRRC in the 60's. I'll put this on a Genie thread too.

As for Lotus 19 #955, I finally came across the photos (when looking for something else of course) of Lew Florence racing the car at Pacific Raceways in 1966:

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Also, from the October 1, 1966 Pepsi Pro at Westwood (run in a downpour):

"...The first to crash was Seattle's Pete Nash. He lost control of his Lotus 19 and hit the metal barrier causing considerable damage to the car..."

Vince H.

#294 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 21:42

Oops, I accidentally posted twice...can someone get rid of the second one for me? And the Pepsi Pro, was October 1, 1967 not 1966.

Vince H.

#295 RA Historian

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Posted 08 November 2006 - 02:54

Originally posted by raceannouncer2003
RA Historian (sorry, what's your name again?)

As for the car advertised as a Genie Mk. 8 replica, the ad says:

"based on the best features of a Genie MK8 and a Lotus 19", so maybe it wasn't built from Lotus 19 parts.
Vince H.


Hi Vince,

It's Tom.

I guess that I did not fully catch the phrase, "based on the best features" and leapt to the conclusion that it was built from parts of these cars. My mistake.

#296 Alan Cox

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Posted 08 November 2006 - 08:21

Vince - Log in, click on to "Edit/Delete post" at the bottom of your post and go in and delete it.

#297 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 08 November 2006 - 08:29

Alan

Thanks...that was easy!

Vince H.

#298 Michael Oliver

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Posted 08 November 2006 - 10:50

Vince: Do you know which event these shots are from in 1966? I have him in two Pacific Raceways events that year - USRRC Jul 30 and Pacific NW GP on Oct 9.

#299 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 08 November 2006 - 17:02

Michael

Sorry, I don't know. I notice the top picture looks like he has #4 and the bottom two #14, so presumably two different races? Maybe Mark Hovander can help with this.

Vince H.

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#300 Ray Bell

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Posted 09 November 2006 - 13:28

Originally posted by John Ellacott
Ray, the Elfin Traco Olds had a Hewland gearbox when new as can be seen in my photo taken in the Peterbilt yard at Alexandria. It may have been changed later :wave:


Or perhaps the SR3s went to ZFs and my memory is failing me again?

Not much comment here about Marc Schagen's input... he's got to be the man with the knowledge about the Matich car as he's pursued this information quite vigorously for years. As he will no doubt show.