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Case history: Lotus 19 Monte Carlo


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#351 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 26 November 2006 - 00:57

From the 1987 Monterey program, this photo. David Smith from Patterson, CA was listed as a DNF at this event. Please note the chassis number, 965. So is this the Mecom car?

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...and from the 2000 Monterey race, this photo. David W. Smith from Modesto, CA was listed as 3rd at this event in car #8, a 1962 Lotus 19. Please note the livery, 1963 Jerry Grant. So is this chassis number 957? I presume it is the same David Smith, as Patterson, CA and Modesto, CA are pretty close together. Are they the same car?

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Vince H.

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#352 Michael Oliver

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Posted 26 November 2006 - 13:02

Originally posted by raceannouncer2003
From the 1987 Monterey program, this photo. David Smith from Patterson, CA was listed as a DNF at this event. Please note the chassis number, 965. So is this the Mecom car?

Posted Image

...and from the 2000 Monterey race, this photo. David W. Smith from Modesto, CA was listed as 3rd at this event in car #8, a 1962 Lotus 19. Please note the livery, 1963 Jerry Grant. So is this chassis number 957? I presume it is the same David Smith, as Patterson, CA and Modesto, CA are pretty close together. Are they the same car?

Posted Image

Vince H.


Vince: I think these must be different cars but agree looks like same guy. Your 95 programme scan had 965 now owned by Richard Roth, who still owns it although the car is currently for sale. My understanding is that it has a Buick engine at present (which I thought was 3531cc capacity) but the two programme scans list 5000 in 1987 (presumably the cc?) and 4400cc in 1995, so not sure what engine this would have been :confused:

On a different but related topic, I can confirm I have spoken to the Arcieros and they definitely only ever had one Lotus 19, so Dave Friedman's story in his book is erroneous... Without any prompting at all, Frank's son Al explained the difference in the appearance of the front hood on Chuck Daigh's car in the 1963 Players 200 (which had been something which had troubled me) compared to other shots I had. Apparently this was due to the fitting of a larger radiator and two eyelets were fitted compared to the central radiator filler previously extant.

#353 David Birchall

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Posted 26 November 2006 - 18:23

I hope the Lotus Nineteen registrar is a least auditing this thread.... :wave:

#354 mach535

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Posted 27 November 2006 - 00:11

There may be a problem with the 965...I was told recently that the Roth car was purchased by a company in California that "builds" cars.

Also the maintainer of the Lotus 19 registry has a chassis marked 965 in several places as one can read about here (halfway down) : http://www.historicl...act/letters.htm

Can anyone here attest for the authenticity of Roth's 965?

#355 Michael Oliver

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Posted 27 November 2006 - 00:23

May be a red herring but it has been suggested to me that Team Rosebud bought the Mecom Racing Team's Lotus 19 (serial # believed to be 965) to replace the car smashed up by Innes Ireland at Pacific Raceways in Sept 63 (serial #952).

The chronology certainly fits as the last recorded appearance I have for the Mecom car is the 1964 Players 200. The first appearance for the 'new' or 'newly rebuilt' Rosebud car was the LA Times GP at Riverside, Oct 1964.

What happened to the Mecom car/chassis is something which has bugged me for a while and this could be a logical explanation. Additionally, my understanding is that the two teams were geographically close together - is this right?

Quite what this means for the history of various chassis is anyone's guess, as I believe the Rosebud car continued to carry the chassis plate of #952. For example, what chassis did the Higgins brothers repatriate to the UK - was it the original wreck of #952 or was it the second Rosebud chassis, which I lose track of at the end of 1964 and which I have no record of being crashed or damaged? Perhaps this 'second Rosebud' chassis could be the car which HLR Lotus 19 registrar Michael Snowdon has in his possession (the chassis has 965 stamped on it in a couple of places and the lower centre panel has metallic blue, the Mecom Racing colour, under the current dark green paint?

However, as the posts above show, there is the complication of another car, fully rebuilt and running, which claims to be 965, and it is this car which is currently for sale...

Can anybody add anything to this? What do you think - pie in the sky or possibility?

Edit: mach535, you must have posted just as I was writing this! Given the potential sensitivity of the situation (e.g. I don't want to get sued!) perhaps you could PM me and we could discuss the identity of this company in California (I have my suspicions!) off-line?

Edit2: mach535, I haven't spoken to Michael Snowdon but did you notice that the top coat of his lower centre section is painted dark green? I don't know if he has the other body panels but you do have front and rear dark green body panels...coincidence? Alternatively - and even more strange - is that, if you look at pics on the internet of 965, it was at some time painted dark green and ran the race number 27...

http://www.atspeedim...60_lotus_19.jpg

#356 RA Historian

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Posted 27 November 2006 - 00:25

Originally posted by mach535

Also the maintainer of the Lotus 19 registry has a chassis marked 965 in several places as one can read about here (halfway down): http://www.historicl...act/letters.htm

Regarding this reference, it is stated that this car was the Mecom car and that it came with a 2.5 Climax and later had a Chevy installed. Not quite, as the car was originally run by Mecom in 1963 with a 2.0 liter Climax in the under two liter division. For 1964 Mecom had an aluminum Oldsmobile V-8 installed and it raced in this configuration during that year. I believe that in this guise it won a race at Galveston, Texas, with Walt Hansgen driving. After 1964 I do not know what happened to this chassis. But that is where we came in with this thread, isn't it!

#357 RA Historian

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Posted 27 November 2006 - 00:30

Originally posted by Michael Oliver

The chronology certainly fits as the last recorded appearance I have for the Mecom car is the 1964 Players 200. The first appearance for the 'new' or 'newly rebuilt' Rosebud car was the LA Times GP at Riverside, Oct 1964.


The Mecom Lotus 19-Olds ran at Road America in June, 1964, driven by Hansgen, and was a DNF. The Galveston race won by Hansgen was in July, 1964. I also think, and you Brits should be able to verify this, that the car was at Brands Hatch for the Guards Trophy in August, 1964, still owned by Mecom. This, of course, is all prior to the 'debut' of the Rosebud car in Oct. 1964, so Michael could very well be right.

#358 Michael Oliver

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Posted 27 November 2006 - 01:08

Originally posted by RA Historian


The Mecom Lotus 19-Olds ran at Road America in June, 1964, driven by Hansgen, and was a DNF. The Galveston race won by Hansgen was in July, 1964. I also think, and you Brits should be able to verify this, that the car was at Brands Hatch for the Guards Trophy in August, 1964, still owned by Mecom. This, of course, is all prior to the 'debut' of the Rosebud car in Oct. 1964, so Michael could very well be right.


You are absolutely right about the Guards Trophy and a race right under our noses on home soil at that! The race report in Competition Press says that the car was crashed into a bank at high speed and 'badly damaged', so I don't know what this means for my theory...

I found the Galveston race (w/e of July 4/5 1964), so that is another one to add to my records, thanks!

I guess the car could have been less 'badly damaged' than it appeared and could still have been rebuilt and sold to Rosebud?

#359 David McKinney

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Posted 27 November 2006 - 06:14

Originally posted by Michael Oliver
For example, what chassis did the Higgins brothers repatriate to the UK - was it the original wreck of #952 or was it the second Rosebud chassis, which I lose track of at the end of 1964 and which I have no record of being crashed or damaged?

It was the second one

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#360 Michael Oliver

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Posted 27 November 2006 - 08:13

Originally posted by David McKinney

It was the second one


David: being picky here but how do you know this? Do you mean that the car was all together with the Ferrari engine still in it, versus the other wreck which presumably would have been a box of bits?

What I am getting at is, are there identifying marks visible in photos of the 'second car' which are evident on the Higgins car to conclusively identify it as such or are you basing what you say on the fact that it was a complete car with a Ferrari engine installed? Also, does anyone have a record of approximately when the ex-Rosebud car was repatriated?

Clearly if this is the case (that it was the second one) it brings into question my theory about where Rosebud got their second 19 chassis if Michael Snowdon still has a chassis with '965' stamped on it and evidence of Mecom paint...a bit more work required on this one methinks!

#361 Ted Walker

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Posted 27 November 2006 - 08:37

I was under the impression that the "Higgins " car came complete with Ferrari engine. Just had a note from my friend Mark Leonard of Grand Prix Classics and he has a 19 for sale at the moment.Also a well known ex Hillclimb Champion has purchased one as well

#362 Allen Brown

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Posted 27 November 2006 - 09:03

Originally posted by Michael Oliver
What happened to the Mecom car/chassis is something which has bugged me for a while and this could be a logical explanation. Additionally, my understanding is that the two teams were geographically close together - is this right?

Tom O'Connor's Team Rosebud was based somewhere in Texas, as was Mecom. However, Texas is a big place!

Several of the Team Rosebud cars were donated to Victoria Public School when the team closed down. The Brabham BT8 and some sort of Ferrari went to the school and I vaguely recall a third car. I'd still have some notes of my conversations with the staff ... somewhere.

Allen

#363 Michael Oliver

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Posted 27 November 2006 - 09:47

Originally posted by Allen Brown
Tom O'Connor's Team Rosebud was based somewhere in Texas, as was Mecom. However, Texas is a big place!

Several of the Team Rosebud cars were donated to Victoria Public School when the team closed down. The Brabham BT8 and some sort of Ferrari went to the school and I vaguely recall a third car. I'd still have some notes of my conversations with the staff ... somewhere.

Allen


I think Rosebud were actually based in Victoria, which is not too far away from Houston, where Mecom were headquartered, IIRC. I would be very interested in your notes if you can find them Allen! It would be really good to track down some ex-Rosebud mechanics, can anyone suggest any names?

#364 Ted Walker

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Posted 27 November 2006 - 10:32

Some sort of Ferrari was a 250GTO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

#365 RA Historian

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Posted 28 November 2006 - 00:16

Originally posted by Michael Oliver


I think Rosebud were actually based in Victoria, which is not too far away from Houston, where Mecom were headquartered, IIRC.

Correct. Rosebud ran out of Victoria, Texas, which was near the Gulf of Mexico between Houston and Corpus Christi. Probably about an hour's drive from Houston.
Also, yes it was a GTO that was donated to the Victoria school district! Not too shabby......
Regarding Rosebud, my memory tells me that they also had a Brabham BT-8 with a 2.0 BRM V-8 aboard. I seem to recall Trevor Taylor driving such a car in the Riverside Times GP but can't recall any other races. It seems like it should have been a rocket, but apparently enthusiasm for the project must have evaporated quickly.

#366 David Birchall

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Posted 28 November 2006 - 03:42

I recall a Brabham BT8 that had been fitted with a BRM v8 that raced locally-now fitted with a Lotus T/C. I tried to buy it in the eighties for $5000 but we couldn't agree on whether the trailer was included or not....

#367 Ray Bell

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Posted 28 November 2006 - 03:45

Now there's something to cry about...

Love those Brabham sports cars, they were very neat, much nicer than 23s.

#368 David Birchall

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Posted 28 November 2006 - 05:18

Yeah, I can laugh now too Ray, but that is the car that Steve Pike ended up getting....

#369 Michael Oliver

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Posted 28 November 2006 - 09:03

Does anyone know if any of the key players involved in Team Rosebud, such as the principal Tom O'Connor or any of the mechanics, are still alive and, if so, how they might be contacted?

#370 Allen Brown

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Posted 28 November 2006 - 09:09

Hi Michael

I wasn't able to trace anyone from the team when I was researching the BT8 in 1993/94 but that was before the web transformed things. People at the school were very helpful however, and I spoke to three people who worked at the school when the cars were there. My notes are in a box in the garage somewhere but I'll try to locate them next weekend.

Allen

#371 Doug Nye

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Posted 28 November 2006 - 11:20

Back from Oz/NZ and slowly re-orientating myself. The Team Rosebud BT8 was actually the first car to win using a '2-litre' BRM V8 engine, when driven by Jack Brabham himself to class victory at Goodwood on Easter Monday 1964. It was ostensibly this car which reappeared at Goodwood in recent years in the hands of Duncan Dayton, shovelled into the bank at Madgwick after the collision with Willie Green's JCB GT40.

DCN

#372 David Birchall

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Posted 28 November 2006 - 16:38

Are we all talking (off topic) about the same car? It belonged to Dee Johnson in Washington State for many years, and it was from him I stupidly did not buy it, but the friend I took with me to view it later told Australian Steve Pike about it who bought it and it was advertised for sale in MotorSport a few years ago, still in Australia.

#373 Allen Brown

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Posted 28 November 2006 - 17:47

Yes, that's the one.

More here (updates welcome)

Allen

#374 Michael Oliver

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Posted 29 November 2006 - 13:19

I have spoken to Mark Leonard of Grand Prix Classics, who confirms it is Lotus 19 chassis #963, the John Delane car, which they have for sale. Not sure what they are asking but the one on the East Coast is up for $300,000...

#375 Ray Bell

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Posted 29 November 2006 - 13:23

Digging up that house in Sydney's southern suburbs is looking better all the time...

#376 Michael Oliver

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Posted 29 November 2006 - 14:59

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Digging up that house in Sydney's southern suburbs is looking better all the time...


...if it's still there :lol: (the chassis that is, not the house...)

#377 Ray Bell

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Posted 29 November 2006 - 15:16

By now, Michael, I understand that you've been assured that it's 'still there'...

Just because some of us are half a world away from Lotusland doesn't mean we don't know what we're talking about.

#378 Michael Oliver

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Posted 29 November 2006 - 16:58

Originally posted by Ray Bell
By now, Michael, I understand that you've been assured that it's 'still there'...

Just because some of us are half a world away from Lotusland doesn't mean we don't know what we're talking about.


My comment was made tongue in cheek :) I am sure it is still there and also that you know what you are talking about. I guess the question that needs to be answered now is whether the 'right to ownership' of said Lotus 19 chassis might have been sold on at some point...

#379 David Birchall

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Posted 29 November 2006 - 17:11

Originally posted by Michael Oliver
I have spoken to Mark Leonard of Grand Prix Classics, who confirms it is Lotus 19 chassis #963, the John Delane car, which they have for sale. Not sure what they are asking but the one on the East Coast is up for $300,000...


That would account for him not rushing up here to buy the old chassis :(

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#380 Michael Oliver

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Posted 29 November 2006 - 17:59

Originally posted by David Birchall


That would account for him not rushing up here to buy the old chassis :(


Mark is keen on re-uniting the old chassis with the current incarnation of the car. I would suggest that a call to him wouldn't go amiss...

#381 Ray Bell

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Posted 30 November 2006 - 02:20

Originally posted by Michael Oliver
.....I guess the question that needs to be answered now is whether the 'right to ownership' of said Lotus 19 chassis might have been sold on at some point...


That's a very interesting suggestion...

I would hesitate to think that it has. I really do hope people haven't started trading in 'memories' to transfer 'title' to historic cars!

#382 Michael Snowdon

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Posted 30 November 2006 - 03:29

Just to Clarify :
I have never "claimed " to own Lotus 19 Chassis 965.
I have a frame that I am trying to find a history of that does ressemble a Lotus 19 frame, although it has been modified, but does have lightly marked MK19.965 and 965 on it. The lower sill/floor was painted a light blue before a dark green, and I am fairly sure that it was in a dry barn for over 25 years. Parts that were with also date it to the late 60's when it was stored. What it is I am not sure.
The only Lotus 19 I know of running chassis 965, is the car run by R.Roth, which has been run recently in vintage events and looks to be in excellent condition.
Mike

#383 David Birchall

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Posted 30 November 2006 - 03:46

Michael, that seems a rather blunt way to introduce yourself. I know you are the Lotus Nineteen historian but I don't think most people here do. Perhaps a little introductory blurb....? :wave:

#384 Ray Bell

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Posted 30 November 2006 - 04:50

It would be even better if Marc Schagen would introduce himself and post on here...

#385 RA Historian

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Posted 30 November 2006 - 14:11

Originally posted by David Birchall
Michael, that seems a rather blunt way to introduce yourself. I know you are the Lotus Nineteen historian but I don't think most people here do. Perhaps a little introductory blurb....?

Indeed. Now that we have THE expert on this site, perhaps a rundown of all the 19s, thier original owners and thier current whereabouts would be in order. This thread has stretched for pages with various overloads of information, contradictions, questions, and puzzles. Is there a possibility of having a summation listed?

#386 Michael Snowdon

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Posted 30 November 2006 - 22:40

Well, I wrote a long introduction with some current information and questions, but the system dropped me when I went to submit, so I did it again with the same result. I then tried the short note that got posted, which I then tried to build on and it didn't go through. So I'm either exceeding a limit or I'm doing something wrong.

Anyway, I have been a Lotus fan all my life and interested in the history such that I took on the task of building up the historical file on Lotus 19's. The file is by no means complete and many questions, as have been identified here, still exist. Although forums such as this have been very helpful and more information is coming out all the time. Needless to say the file has loose ends all needing research, and I can be wrong as well as right in trying to determine the fact from fiction.


Just a couple of notes :
The chassis #962 ex R. Carveth - Rosso Bianco Museum was purchased by Olav Glasius, so it should be on the European circuits next year.

I had a lead that the Nickey Special was constructed from a wrecked 19 in Nassau, Bahamas in the mid 1960's- does anyone have any further information on this? It was owned by Bill Easy at the time.

I will play a more active part in the forum going forward and hope I can contribute.

#387 Ray Bell

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Posted 01 December 2006 - 00:25

Originally posted by Michael Snowdon
Well, I wrote a long introduction with some current information and questions, but the system dropped me when I went to submit, so I did it again with the same result. I then tried the short note that got posted, which I then tried to build on and it didn't go through. So I'm either exceeding a limit or I'm doing something wrong.....


There's some sort of time restriction, Michael... I don't know why or how, but at about ten minutes you lose your log in if you haven't opened a fresh page. Best options might be:

1. Have a second window going that you refresh every few minutes.

2. Type what you want to post in a Word document or Text file, copy and paste to your post.

3. Seek the advice of the masters of the forum, then let us know what's happening.

#388 David Beard

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Posted 01 December 2006 - 12:45

Originally posted by Michael Snowdon
Well, I wrote a long introduction with some current information and questions, but the system dropped me when I went to submit, so I did it again with the same result. I then tried the short note that got posted, which I then tried to build on and it didn't go through. So I'm either exceeding a limit or I'm doing something wrong.


Good to see you here at last, Michael.

As Rays says, if you are going to post something of any length it seems to be always best to type it off line and paste it into the reply box when you are ready. I learned the hard way too...

#389 olav glasius

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Posted 02 December 2006 - 12:32

I support RA historian to have a list on this forum of all 19 s with their owners history
must be a lot easier then making a list of the Eleven s. :lol:

I hope someone on this board has pics,preferably color pics of my car 962 when owned by Carveth,
it was painted black and had racing nr 54. This will help me to bring it back to it s
original livery.

#390 Allen Brown

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Posted 02 December 2006 - 12:59

Whoever does that needs to be careful to note why a particular number has been associated with a particular car. There were a lot of question marks when the thread started. Have we proved the identities or have we just got so used to them that we've forgotten that some are unproven?

Allen

#391 olav glasius

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Posted 02 December 2006 - 13:20

I fully agree with you ,Allen, but if we have that list we can make comments and probably the result will be a list with cars without doubts and one with doubts , so we can work from that point and fill in the gaps or discuss the cars with doubts.

#392 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 03 December 2006 - 07:46

I don't know if this has been discussed, but from October 24, 1964 Competition Press, about Laguna Seca:

"The Rosebud entry was immaculate, as we have come to expect. The old 19 that Moss won in four years ago was fitted with a 3 liter Testa Rossa..."

Vince H.

#393 Michael Oliver

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Posted 03 December 2006 - 21:23

Originally posted by raceannouncer2003
I don't know if this has been discussed, but from October 24, 1964 Competition Press, about Laguna Seca:

"The Rosebud entry was immaculate, as we have come to expect. The old 19 that Moss won in four years ago was fitted with a 3 liter Testa Rossa..."

Vince H.


Vince, that is very interesting, but on what basis was this comment made by the writer and what evidence is there to support the notion that this car was the one that Moss had won in in 1960? If he'd said 'three years ago' I think he would have been nearer the mark but even then, it wasn't the same chassis any more because of Inne's crash nearly a year before...

#394 Allen Brown

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Posted 03 December 2006 - 21:47

His personal recollection or a comment from the owner/mechanic/driver?

Nobody would have taken a crash and re-chassis into account.

#395 Michael Oliver

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Posted 03 December 2006 - 22:18

Originally posted by Allen Brown
His personal recollection or a comment from the owner/mechanic/driver?

Nobody would have taken a crash and re-chassis into account.


Or simply lazy journalism - failing to check the facts...

There is no evidence to support this statement, witness the post very early on in this thread, which said that the three UDT cars went to Frank Matich, Rosebud and Mike Pendleton. 950 - the prototype - was built in 1960, while 952 and 953 were built in 1961. The Pendleton car didn't go to him until Sept 63 and its history is well plotted post that date. As far as I have been able to ascertain, 952 was the car used by Moss in the 1961 North American races (he had used 950 in 1960 events) and it seems hard to fathom that this would not have been the car acquired by Rosebud in late 1961 as it was already in North America. Similarly, when you see the state of the car sent to Frank Matich, it is hard to believe that it was not the original, rather tired prototype, rather than a comparatively fresh, 'nine races only guv' 1961 model.

What I am trying to say in a rather long-winded way is that, even if the chassis histories I have quoted were wrong, 950 or 952 went to Matich, was shunted and ended up buried in concrete, while 950 or 952 went to Rosebud, was shunted in October 1963 by Ireland and a new chassis was reported procured to rebuild the car. Either way the car appearing in October 1964 cannot by definition be the one used by Moss four years earlier!

#396 Mark Campbell

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Posted 04 December 2006 - 03:10

Originally posted by Michael Snowdon
I will play a more active part in the forum going forward and hope I can contribute.


Well Michael, I think that Olav's query is most timely with respect to a listing of chassis numbers and what is on the 'official' record. What do you say? There is a good forum here, a great deal of time invested and I can't imagine a better place to get it all sorted.

#397 David Birchall

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Posted 04 December 2006 - 03:52

Here is my very amateur attempt at a start of a list:

Lotus Nineteens


963 December 1962 Henry Olds and Bob Colombosian (US) No engine Buick 215cu

October 1963 Norm Namerow (Montreal), August 1964 Peter Lerch, Winter 1964/65 modified by Bob McKee, V8 Ford and Mckee body. September 1965 severly damaged in accident. Purchased at track in damaged condition by local Montreal club driver. 1970/72 sold again (?) February 1982 purchased by John Maycock, Vancouver. Rebuilt by John Maycock 1982-1990 with new frame and body plus suspension parts originally removed from this car by Bob McKee.
~1991 sold to Japanese owner, then to Californian who sold it to John DeLane ,
Bought it back and traded it to Delane again. Presently for sale.
Above information provided by John Maycock following discussions with Henry
Olds, Peter Lerch and Bob McKee.


955 Bought by Jack Nethercutt, California. Later fitted with Ferrari engine. Passed through various hands in the Seattle area. Since 1979 with ‘Anonymous' in Seattle. No engine or trans.


Those are the two I know about; how about the rest? :wave:

#398 olav glasius

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Posted 04 December 2006 - 07:10

David,as far as I know 962 was first owned by Rod Carveth
and has a completely different history.
I own 962 which came from the Rosso Bianco Museum.
Is there another one in the USA with the same number?

#399 Allen Brown

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Posted 04 December 2006 - 08:29

It needs something more like this:

96x
December 1962 (explanation of this date - first sighting or known production date - plus the source - Autosport, Lotus production records, whatever)
Henry Olds and Bob Columbosian (US) No engine Buick 215cu (source for this)
October 1963 Norm Namerow (Ontario) (source - how do we know Namerow had the Olds/Columbosian car?)
August 1964 Peter Lerch (source - how do we know Lerch had Namerow's car?))
etc

Or, if the identification isn't solid

the Olds/Columbosian car
believed to be 96x because ...
Dec 1962 Henry Olds and Bob Columbosian (US)

Also

the Carveth car
believed to be 96x because [Rosso Bianco say it is?/whatever]
Date Owner (source)
Date Owner (source)

Sources are essential.

Allen

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#400 Manfred Cubenoggin

Manfred Cubenoggin
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Posted 04 December 2006 - 13:12

Not to be picky, gents, but if precise data is what you're after, Norm Namerow operated out of Montreal, Quebec...not Ontario. Ditto for Peter Lerch.