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Case history: Lotus 19 Monte Carlo


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#401 Allen Brown

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Posted 04 December 2006 - 14:20

We like picky. Picky is good.

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#402 Michael Oliver

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Posted 04 December 2006 - 15:55

Originally posted by olav glasius
David,as far as I know 962 was first owned by Rod Carveth
and has a completely different history.
I own 962 which came from the Rosso Bianco Museum.
Is there another one in the USA with the same number?


I feel sure that David meant to type '963' not 962 as this is the history that relates to that car - a slip of the fingers I think!

Oh, and on the theme of being picky, it is Bob Colombosian, not Columbosian!

#403 David Birchall

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Posted 04 December 2006 - 16:46

Thanks gentlemen, yes it was supposed to read '963'! I will now edit my previous post :blush:


We know the information is correct because it was confirmed by Henry Olds, Peter Lerch and Bob McKee.

#404 olav glasius

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Posted 04 December 2006 - 17:02

Hi Allen,can you change your thread 962 into 963 to avoid mistakes.

I like picky too

962

1962 Rod Carveth SF painted black racenumber 54

Bev Spencer

Stan Peterson LA

Frank Crane

Lee Guitier

1979 Don Orosco Pebble Beach

1980 Stephen Griswold Berkely

1980 Chris Drake England

1980 Rosso Bianco Museum Germany

2006 Olav Glasius Holland

I haven t any more details at the moment
Maybe others can fill in

#405 David Birchall

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Posted 04 December 2006 - 19:10

Picky is good--results is better!! :wave:

#406 Mark Campbell

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Posted 04 December 2006 - 22:44

Originally posted by David Birchall
Here is my very amateur attempt at a start of a list:

Lotus Nineteens


963 December 1962 Henry Olds and Bob Colombosian (US) No engine Buick 215cu

October 1963 Norm Namerow (Montreal), August 1964 Peter Lerch, Winter 1964/65 modified by Bob McKee, V8 Ford and Mckee body. September 1965 severly damaged in accident. Purchased at track in damaged condition by local Montreal club driver. 1970/72 sold again (?) February 1982 purchased by John Maycock, Vancouver. Rebuilt by John Maycock 1982-1990 with new frame and body plus suspension parts originally removed from this car by Bob McKee. ~1991 sold to Japanese owner, then to Californian who sold it to John DeLane , Bought it back and traded it to Delane again. Presently for sale. Above information provided by John Maycock following discussions with Henry Olds, Peter Lerch and Bob McKee.


To fill in one of the gaps, was the 'Californian' who bought 963 once and traded it back to DeLane the late Frank Jellenik, a Californian who resided in Portsmouth, New Hampshire? Michael, I believe that you clarified this for me in an email but I seem to have misplaced it.

#407 David Birchall

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Posted 05 December 2006 - 00:13

Thanks Mark, yes it was. I couldn't remember his name.

#408 RA Historian

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Posted 05 December 2006 - 03:09

Originally posted by Mark Campbell


To fill in one of the gaps, was the 'Californian' who bought 963 once and traded it back to DeLane the late Frank Jellenik, a Californian who resided in Portsmouth, New Hampshire? Michael, I believe that you clarified this for me in an email but I seem to have misplaced it.

I am glad to see this clarified. Jellinek had his 19 at Road America in both 2004 and 2005 and both times the claim was made that it was the "Dan Gurney car". I argued with them that it was not, for a number of reasons that were apparent. This was discussed earlier on this thread, I believe.

#409 Michael Oliver

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Posted 05 December 2006 - 10:22

Originally posted by olav glasius
Hi Allen,can you change your thread 962 into 963 to avoid mistakes.

I like picky too

962

1962 Rod Carveth SF painted black racenumber 54

Bev Spencer

Stan Peterson LA

Frank Crane

Lee Guitier

1979 Don Orosco Pebble Beach

1980 Stephen Griswold Berkely

1980 Chris Drake England

1980 Rosso Bianco Museum Germany

2006 Olav Glasius Holland

I haven t any more details at the moment
Maybe others can fill in


Olav, how sure are you about the Frank Crane connection? I believe he owned a Lotus-Buick (Mk 6, IIRC?) but have not heard of him having a 19, or racing it in period.

#410 Allen Brown

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Posted 05 December 2006 - 10:29

OK, my turn to be picky.

Olav, how do you know that Rod Carveth's car was chassis 962?

How do you know that Bev Spencer bought his car from Rod Carveth?

How do you know that Stan Peterson bought his car from Bev Spencer?

How do you know that Frank Crane bought his car from Stan Peterson?

How do you know that Lee Guitier bought his car from Frank Crane?

How do you know that Don Orosco bought his car from Lee Guitier?

How do you know that Stephen Griswold bought his car from Don Orosco?

How do you know that Chris Drake bought his car from Stephen Griswold?

How do you know that Rosso Bianco Museum bought their car from Chris Drake?

Allen

#411 olav glasius

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Posted 05 December 2006 - 17:33

Hi Allen,

I was waiting for your questions.
It is not a matter of being picky but I also like things proven.
I have got the info from someone,who I now have asked to proove it
Rod Carveth seems to be on the build card,that he has , so wait for his reply.
The file from the Rosso Bianco collection says that it was bought from Chris Drake,
together with some other cars.
Maybe others on this group can help to prove things.
That they are correct or wrong.
We must hurry on all researches as many people involved in those days
are old or have passed away.
Glad we are dealing with only a few cars here in this group and not
like to Lotus XI or Seven.
If members of this group need some info on other Lotus matters
like brochures (I have a full set) maybe I can help.
It also seems that I have the biggest collection of Lotus cars
in the world,including some prototypes.

#412 Cynic

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Posted 05 December 2006 - 17:52

Hello, Olav,

Are you familiar with George Barber's collection of Lotus cars, at his museum at the Barber race track near Birmingham, Alabama? I believe he has one of perhaps every Lotus, except the 19 and the 30/40. (When I was last there there was a 29 in the white Gurney colors undergoing restoration.) I can't be certain about all the cars, as I am far from a Lotus expert, but it was a most impressive collection.

David

#413 olav glasius

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Posted 05 December 2006 - 18:24

Hi Cynic,

Of course I know the Barber collection and Lee Clarke
who is in charge, the collection is very far from complete
nor is mine . They don t have a 19 but just bought 10
at the Goodwood auction and maybe the 30 that was
for sale,both need a full restoration

#414 Michael Snowdon

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Posted 06 December 2006 - 21:33

I have to agree with Allen and Olav, the information and supporting iron-clad documentation is very difficult if not impossible to attain. We can put together the best case based on some known activites and some conjecture but it is not going to satisfy all. Some aspects just lead to more questions. For only 17 cars it is proving to be a very difficult task, and as I belive Allen said, some of the information has been stated so long we accept it as fact. Not to say it isn't but hard proof is not there.

Some thoughts,
Peter Lerch talks to David Greenblatt ( of Dailiu specials fame ) on a regular basis, and Peter has confirmed to me through David that he had purchased the Namerow car in late 1964. If necessary I could probably get Peter to put this in writing. The car was sent to McKee and sudsequently "flipped" at Le Circuit Tremblant, then sold to a Montreal based resident, name unknown.
John Maycock ( and John please correct me if I am incorrect ) found a wrecked car in Montreal in the early 80's and determined it to be the wrecked P. Lerch/ McKee special. The re-constructed car was sold in the late 80's ? to person's unknown ? The car was painted in a dark blue color, including the doors, had a Buick V8 and Hewland gearbox ( I belive a early type ?) and a Collotti gearbox as extra. The gear shift I belive was on the right not in the center and it had Lotus wobbly web wheels.
The next reference I have is a car sold as 19/963 to Brad Krause in Feb 1996 ( I have a copy of a Bill of Sale ), This car based on some invoices of work done on the car, had a Buick 215 V8 engine, a FT-200 Hewland, had some chassis repairs, and readied for track use.
In Sept 1998 The car had the nose and tail sections painted yellow in a distinct lay-out. The wheels were re-painted 'blue and black'. My understanding is that this car was painted dark blue.
The car was for sale again by January 1999. Who it sold to I don't know.
I belive the car owned by Frank Jellinek and now John Delane matches the description as far hardware is concerned. Although the information with the car may not match.

I have also been confused as the information package supplied by John Maycock when he sold his 19, or at least a copy of it showed up with additional information with a 19 sold to a East coast enthusiaste in approximately 2002, headed " An Invitation to Purchase, Lotus 19 Monte Carlo, Chassis nunber 963". This car also had a Buick V8, Hewland gearbox, shifter on the right, Lotus wobbly webs painted yellow, a dark green body and was rumored to have come out of Canada.
The mechanic who worked on the car does not remmember if it had a chassis plate or not, so there is no real link. The information could have been not meant as a description of that car but just general info. This car I belive could be the one currently owned by Richard Roth, as it matches in hardware, color etc.

So I am continuing to try and sort out what's what, and can be totally wrong in the conclusions.

Comments ?

#415 bradbury west

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Posted 06 December 2006 - 21:46

Interestingly, in this month's C&SC there is an advertisment from www.can-amcarsltd.com for a car "based on the McKee mk8/Lotus 19. Car raced 1963 through 1967. Ran Road America, USRRC and many others. ZF5DS25 transaxle" and so it goes on, ending many new parts, spares, original, $74,900

Is this connected with this thread at all? Where/when did the original car end and the new one take up its own identity?

Roger Lund.

#416 bradbury west

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Posted 06 December 2006 - 21:56

I have now looked at the website and it is clear that it is one of three cars built in 63 as Genie copies. The ad seems misleading to me as it says that the car was" based on the mk8 Genie and Lotus 19" rather than "using the best features of etc." to produce copies of something else, the Genie mk8. Semantics, I know, but it forms the basis of the description.
Sorry for the confusion.

RL

#417 David Birchall

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Posted 06 December 2006 - 22:53

Originally posted by Michael Snowdon
I have to agree with Allen and Olav, the information and supporting iron-clad documentation is very difficult if not impossible to attain. We can put together the best case based on some known activites and some conjecture but it is not going to satisfy all. Some aspects just lead to more questions. For only 17 cars it is proving to be a very difficult task, and as I belive Allen said, some of the information has been stated so long we accept it as fact. Not to say it isn't but hard proof is not there.

Some thoughts,
Peter Lerch talks to David Greenblatt ( of Dailiu specials fame ) on a regular basis, and Peter has confirmed to me through David that he had purchased the Namerow car in late 1964. If necessary I could probably get Peter to put this in writing. The car was sent to McKee and sudsequently "flipped" at Le Circuit Tremblant, then sold to a Montreal based resident, name unknown.
John Maycock ( and John please correct me if I am incorrect ) found a wrecked car in Montreal in the early 80's and determined it to be the wrecked P. Lerch/ McKee special. The re-constructed car was sold in the late 80's ? to person's unknown ? The car was painted in a dark blue color, including the doors, had a Buick V8 and Hewland gearbox ( I belive a early type ?) and a Collotti gearbox as extra. The gear shift I belive was on the right not in the center and it had Lotus wobbly web wheels.
The next reference I have is a car sold as 19/963 to Brad Krause in Feb 1996 ( I have a copy of a Bill of Sale ), This car based on some invoices of work done on the car, had a Buick 215 V8 engine, a FT-200 Hewland, had some chassis repairs, and readied for track use.
In Sept 1998 The car had the nose and tail sections painted yellow in a distinct lay-out. The wheels were re-painted 'blue and black'. My understanding is that this car was painted dark blue.
The car was for sale again by January 1999. Who it sold to I don't know.
I belive the car owned by Frank Jellinek and now John Delane matches the description as far hardware is concerned. Although the information with the car may not match.

I have also been confused as the information package supplied by John Maycock when he sold his 19, or at least a copy of it showed up with additional information with a 19 sold to a East coast enthusiaste in approximately 2002, headed " An Invitation to Purchase, Lotus 19 Monte Carlo, Chassis nunber 963". This car also had a Buick V8, Hewland gearbox, shifter on the right, Lotus wobbly webs painted yellow, a dark green body and was rumored to have come out of Canada.
The mechanic who worked on the car does not remmember if it had a chassis plate or not, so there is no real link. The information could have been not meant as a description of that car but just general info. This car I belive could be the one currently owned by Richard Roth, as it matches in hardware, color etc.

So I am continuing to try and sort out what's what, and can be totally wrong in the conclusions.

Comments ?


Hi Michael, since John Maycock has no particular reason to post here i will speak for him. He fitted a Hewland FT200-not 'an early Hewland' because although he got some parts to a Colotti gearbox Colotti wanted too much for the parts that John was missing.
As regards an 'Infomation package' with another car, John can have had nothing to do with that. However, both John and myself had been attempting to sell the car and several info packages would have been distributed.
Perhaps I should go to more trouble to get photos of the original frame. We have had over a foot of snow for the past ten days but this is clearing up fast now and I will endeavour to get to my friends place and take some photos of it and the transaxle that McKee fitted.

#418 Manfred Cubenoggin

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Posted 07 December 2006 - 01:42

Way back in post # 184, I put up my shots of Larry Reilly's car...ex-Dave Greenblatt. Has this one been traced and it's current whereabouts established?

I mention in that post that the car suffered an input shaft failure to the transaxle. I distinctly recall in the paddock that the car was jacked up at the extreme rear on a lateral frame tube located near the back of the gear case...this piece is visible in other pix where the bonnet has been removed and the extreme rear of the car is in view. The placement of the jack was dead centre of this light tube and I gather that with the exrta poundage of the big Chevy V-8, the poor little thing couldn't take it and the tube bent like a banana. A good 3" of vertical deflection, I'd say, with probable deformation of the associated framework either side. Whether this was ultimately straightened or replaced outright I cannot say.

#419 Allen Brown

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Posted 07 December 2006 - 09:11

Originally posted by Michael Snowdon
I have to agree with Allen and Olav, the information and supporting iron-clad documentation is very difficult if not impossible to attain. We can put together the best case based on some known activites and some conjecture but it is not going to satisfy all. Some aspects just lead to more questions. For only 17 cars it is proving to be a very difficult task, and as I belive Allen said, some of the information has been stated so long we accept it as fact. Not to say it isn't but hard proof is not there.

Some thoughts,
Peter Lerch talks to David Greenblatt ( of Dailiu specials fame ) on a regular basis, and Peter has confirmed to me through David that he had purchased the Namerow car in late 1964. If necessary I could probably get Peter to put this in writing. The car was sent to McKee and sudsequently "flipped" at Le Circuit Tremblant, then sold to a Montreal based resident, name unknown.
John Maycock ( and John please correct me if I am incorrect ) found a wrecked car in Montreal in the early 80's and determined it to be the wrecked P. Lerch/ McKee special. The re-constructed car was sold in the late 80's ? to person's unknown ? The car was painted in a dark blue color, including the doors, had a Buick V8 and Hewland gearbox ( I belive a early type ?) and a Collotti gearbox as extra. The gear shift I belive was on the right not in the center and it had Lotus wobbly web wheels.
The next reference I have is a car sold as 19/963 to Brad Krause in Feb 1996 ( I have a copy of a Bill of Sale ), This car based on some invoices of work done on the car, had a Buick 215 V8 engine, a FT-200 Hewland, had some chassis repairs, and readied for track use.
In Sept 1998 The car had the nose and tail sections painted yellow in a distinct lay-out. The wheels were re-painted 'blue and black'. My understanding is that this car was painted dark blue.
The car was for sale again by January 1999. Who it sold to I don't know.
I belive the car owned by Frank Jellinek and now John Delane matches the description as far hardware is concerned. Although the information with the car may not match.

I have also been confused as the information package supplied by John Maycock when he sold his 19, or at least a copy of it showed up with additional information with a 19 sold to a East coast enthusiaste in approximately 2002, headed " An Invitation to Purchase, Lotus 19 Monte Carlo, Chassis nunber 963". This car also had a Buick V8, Hewland gearbox, shifter on the right, Lotus wobbly webs painted yellow, a dark green body and was rumored to have come out of Canada.
The mechanic who worked on the car does not remmember if it had a chassis plate or not, so there is no real link. The information could have been not meant as a description of that car but just general info. This car I belive could be the one currently owned by Richard Roth, as it matches in hardware, color etc.

So I am continuing to try and sort out what's what, and can be totally wrong in the conclusions.

Comments ?

Michael

This is excellent information and exactly what we should be seeking for each car. The Namerow - Lerch link is fine and doesn't need written confirmation. My approach would be to draw a line below this car and then go on to describe the 1980s Maycock car then another line and then the 1996-1999 Brad Krause car then another line and then the Jellinek-Delane car. I'd keep those lines there until more solid evidence emerges that connects one with the next.

As to a heading for this disjointed history, I'd say "Lotus 19 'the Namerow car' (963?)". Sorry if it's a bit of a mouthful but referring to this car as 963 is potentially dangerous if we don't really know its number. Calling it 'the Namerow car' is less contentious. I also find that sticking a question mark after the number prompts people to say why they think it is (or isn't) that number.

Allen

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#420 Ray Bell

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Posted 07 December 2006 - 13:34

Originally posted by John Ellacott
Ray, the Elfin Traco Olds had a Hewland gearbox when new as can be seen in my photo taken in the Peterbilt yard at Alexandria. It may have been changed later.


A little 'housekeeping'... here's John's photo, though this is my photo of his photo, so it's poor quality unlike any of John's own photos...

Posted Image

#421 David Birchall

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Posted 07 December 2006 - 18:13

Originally posted by Allen Brown
Michael

This is excellent information and exactly what we should be seeking for each car. The Namerow - Lerch link is fine and doesn't need written confirmation. My approach would be to draw a line below this car and then go on to describe the 1980s Maycock car then another line and then the 1996-1999 Brad Krause car then another line and then the Jellinek-Delane car. I'd keep those lines there until more solid evidence emerges that connects one with the next.

As to a heading for this disjointed history, I'd say "Lotus 19 'the Namerow car' (963?)". Sorry if it's a bit of a mouthful but referring to this car as 963 is potentially dangerous if we don't really know its number. Calling it 'the Namerow car' is less contentious. I also find that sticking a question mark after the number prompts people to say why they think it is (or isn't) that number.

Allen


Well, After 419 posts, an incredible amount of information garnered world wide and we are no closer to compiling a list of chassis. I made an attempt because we can aim for 'perfection" forever but, as everyone knows, perfection is an unatainable goal. The attitude being expressed will scare away hope of further input rather than encourage it, which surely should be the objective here? Is the purpose of this thread - and by extension TNF - so that the "professionals" can cherry pick information? Or is it so that the historic racing community benefit?

We can constantly 'take aim' or we can 'pull the trigger' and begin to accomplish something-putting a warning on a list that it is a "Work in progress" and information will be changed and added as it is available and confirmed would be a requirement of course.

We can be "Picky' but we can also be pro-active. :wave:

#422 Allen Brown

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Posted 07 December 2006 - 18:30

David

All I'm saying is don't state assumptions as if they're facts.

I'd be very surprised if that's going to scare people off.

Allen

#423 David Birchall

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Posted 07 December 2006 - 19:42

Originally posted by Allen Brown
David

All I'm saying is don't state assumptions as if they're facts.

I'd be very surprised if that's going to scare people off.

Allen


Allen, no assumptions have been stated as facts by me--John Maycock and I have both satisfied ourselves that the car John Delane has is the car John Maycock rebuilt in the eighties. The original chassis and transaxle that came with that car are the chassis and transaxle that Bob McKee did for Peter Lerch--no assumptions.

#424 David McKinney

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Posted 07 December 2006 - 19:50

OK, here’s a skeleton summary which others can change, add to, whatever
It includes most (but probably not all) the information in this thread, but only in basic form, and at this stage there may be some assumptions
Sorry, Allen, someone else will have to add the sources

950
1960 UDT prototype (Moss)
1961 UDT-Laystall (including Moss)
Then Team Total (Frank Matich) in Australia from Jan 1962 until written off 1963

’950’
1972?-96 Terry Buffum, California (for sale 10/10/96)
1997-98 Richard Austin, UK
2001-2006 Robert Brooks, UK

951
1960-62 Arciero Racing (Dan Gurney) USA
1963 Arciero Racing (Daigh, Clark)
1964 Arciero Racing with Chevy V8 (Al Unser, Bobby Unser)
2006 retained by Frank Arciero

952
second UDT-Laytsall car 1960-61
1962-63 Rosebud team (Ireland) USA, latterly with Ferrari engine

’952’
1963 Rosebud replacement for 952 (Ferrari engine), raced by Ireland USA 1964
to Victoria High School auto shop
sold at auction 1978
to Higgins brothers, Lincolnshire, UK, 1980s; raced by Bill Higgins 1994
1996-date Otto Reedtrz-Thott, Denmark

953
The third UDT-Laystall car 1961, retained 1962-63
via Mike Pendleton 1963 to George Pitt 1964
Entwistle later 1960s, then Walker , Harry O’Brien and Kelvin Jones (who retains 2006)

954
J Frank Harrison USA 1961-63. Rebodied 1962 and Ford V8 engine, driven by Lloyd Ruby
1964 new owner, Atlanta - Fong/Clark dns Players 200
1966 Charlie Kolb
1967 Orly Thornsjo
1985 unnamed owner, Chicago
2006 Dave Helms of Boulder, Colorado, reportedly restoring

955
1962 Jack Nethercutt (2.5 FPF)
later 1960s Dick Hahn fitted Chevy V8
1964 Dave Tatom
later 1960s Lew Florence
to Pete Nash who raced NW USA with Ford engine
?Bargelt
1983-date remains with amusement park musician

956
1961 Harry Zweifel, Switzerland; with 4-cyl Maserati engine 1962
2006 present whereabouts known by Ted Walker

957
1961 Tom Carstens USA fitted Buick engine
1962-65 raced by Jerry Grant, with Chevy engine from 1964
1966 Jerry Hansen
1967-68 Dick Kantrud
1983 remains allegedly with amusement park musician
1985 Terry Buffum, California
1996 John Buddenbaum entered Laguna Seca (Buick engine) but Buffum for sale 10/10
1998 Fantasy Junction for sale Jan
2000 David Smith raced Laguna Seca

958
nothing known

959
1961 Comstock RT (Pete Ryan) Canada
1962 Francis Bradley
1963 Denny Coad
1964 Vic Yachuck
1965 Denny Coad
restored by Stephen Griswold 1970s
1995-date Jack Boxtrom (for sale throughout much of this period)

960
nothing known

961
nothing known

962
1962-63 Rod Carveth USA with Buick engine (he says #964)
Bev Spencer 1963, Stan Peterson 1963-64
2006 Olav Glasius, Netherlands

963
1962 Henry Olds and Bob Colombosian USA with Buick engine
1963-64 Norm Namerow, Canada, with Ford engine and McKee transaxle
1965 Peter Lerch
1980s John Maycock rebuilt with new chassis, transmission, suspension, fitted Rover V8
1996 Brad Krause entered Laguna Seca
2006 John Delane, California

964
1963 John Coundley (and Bill de Selincourt) UK with 2.7 FPF
1964 Phil Scragg in UK hillclimbs
?later to Terry Buffum, USA

965
1962-63 Mecom Racing, USA, with 2.0 FPF (Pabst)
1964 Mecom Racing with Oldsmobile V8 (Cannon)

965, 19B
1963-65 Dan Gurney (Ford 289) North America
1965 Joe Leonard crashed tyre-testing at Riverside
1965-66 Steve Dulio (and Bondurant)
Dick Calluet (Traco-Chev)
1970s Wayne Linden (Ford)
1995-2003 (-date?) Gordon Gimbel

unknown cars USA
•Roy Schechter Nov 1961 to 1962
•new to Bob Publicker
•1962 Tom Terrrell, Chicago (2.0) > 1963 Doug Thiem
•1962-66 Dave Causey (2.5 FPF) - ex-Publicker?
•1967 Unser 19G
•1967 Allen Taylor (Buick) - ex-Carveth?
•1967-68 Pete Woods
•1968 Keith Hardy and Chuck Frederick - 954?
Several frames built in the mid eighties in the Seattle area
•1997 Vintage Racing Services (2.5) for sale Connecticut June
2006 John Buffum (near complete reconstruction of the SMART car of Moss)

unknown cars Canada
•1964 Dave Greenblatt (dver: Peter Lerch) “Dailu Mk4” > Larry Reilly (Chev V8) 1964-65
•Ernie DeVos Canada (rebodied)

unknown cars Europe
•Charles Vogele, Switzerland 1962
•John Scott-Davies UK 1966 – ex-Coundley?
Peter Bloore replica chassis for original ex-Matich bits 1980 > To Joel Finn USA > Anderson Auto Museum, Boston > 2002 Brooks Quail Lodge auction

unknown cars Australia
•1963-65 Laurie O’Neil 19B (dver Matich) - new chassis etc, some parts from old car > crashed Lakeside 1965 and not rebuilt

#425 David Birchall

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Posted 07 December 2006 - 19:54

:clap: :clap: :clap:

#426 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 07 December 2006 - 21:49

David M

Thanks for putting the "bones" together! Just a few points:

955
I don't think Dick Hahn fitted a V8, I think that was Florence, who had it 1965-1966. And Dave Tatom drove the car for Dick Hahn in 1964 (by the way, on tv, I just watched Cindi Lux, Dick Hahn's daughter, finish second in her class in a Viper at the SCCA runoffs). And the owner after Pete Nash was Jim Bargelt.

959
Carl Moore has this car now.

963
Frank Jellinek, Jr. had this car before John Delane.

From 1995 and 2005 Monterey Historic program:

"Mk 19B 966" - Gordon Gimbel/Nancy Gimbel (was 965 a typo, David?)

From 1995 Monterey Historic program:

950
Terry Buffum (entrant), Gil Nickel (driver)

956
Joel Finn

957
Terry Buffum (entrant), John Buddenbaum (driver)

959
Jack Boxstrom (now Carl Moore)

965
Richard Roth

Lotus 19 - no chassis number listed
Walter Bladstrom

Vince H.

#427 RA Historian

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Posted 08 December 2006 - 03:31

Bravo, well done and appreciated!

#428 Mark Campbell

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Posted 08 December 2006 - 14:51

Additions to David McKinney's listing in red below,


950
1960 UDT prototype (Moss)
1961 UDT-Laystall (including Moss)
Then Team Total (Frank Matich) in Australia from Jan 1962 until written off 1963

’950’
1972?-96 Terry Buffum, California (for sale 10/10/96)
1997-98 Richard Austin, UK
2001-2006 Robert Brooks, UK

951
1960-62 Arciero Racing (Dan Gurney) USA
1963 Arciero Racing (Daigh, Clark)
1964 Arciero Racing with Chevy V8 (Al Unser, Bobby Unser)
2006 retained by Frank Arciero

952
second UDT-Laytsall car 1960-61
1962-63 Rosebud team (Ireland) USA, latterly with Ferrari engine

’952’
1963 Rosebud replacement for 952 (Ferrari engine), raced by Ireland USA 1964
to Victoria High School auto shop
sold at auction 1978
to Higgins brothers, Lincolnshire, UK, 1980s; raced by Bill Higgins 1994
1996-date Otto Reedtrz-Thott, Denmark

953
The third UDT-Laystall car 1961, retained 1962-63
via Mike Pendleton 1963 to George Pitt 1964
Entwistle later 1960s, then Walker , Harry O’Brien and Kelvin Jones (who retains 2006)

954
J Frank Harrison USA 1961-63. Rebodied 1962 and Ford V8 engine, driven by Lloyd Ruby
1964 new owner, Atlanta - Fong/Clark dns Players 200
1966 Charlie Kolb
1967 Orly Thornsjo
1985 unnamed owner, Chicago
2006 Dave Helms of Boulder, Colorado, reportedly restoring

955
1962 Jack Nethercutt (2.5 FPF)
later 1960s Dick Hahn fitted Chevy V8
1964 Dave Tatom
later 1960s Lew Florence
to Pete Nash who raced NW USA with Ford engine
?Bargelt
1983-date remains with amusement park musician

956
1961 Harry Zweifel, Switzerland; with 4-cyl Maserati engine 1962
2006 present whereabouts known by Ted Walker

'956'
1961 Charles Vogel (Switzerland) 2.5 Climax changed to 2.0 Climax in 1962 (per L.C.Crane. Motorsports Journal Jan 1980)


957
1961 Tom Carstens USA fitted Buick engine
1962-65 raced by Jerry Grant, with Chevy engine from 1964
1966 Jerry Hansen
1967-68 Dick Kantrud
1983 remains allegedly with amusement park musician
1985 Terry Buffum, California
1996 John Buddenbaum entered Laguna Seca (Buick engine) but Buffum for sale 10/10
1998 Fantasy Junction for sale Jan
2000 David Smith raced Laguna Seca

958
1961 Roy Schecter 2.5 Climax (per L.C.Crane. Motorsports Journal Jan 1980)


959
1961 Comstock RT (Pete Ryan) Canada
1962 Francis Bradley
1963 Denny Coad
1964 Vic Yachuck
1965 Denny Coad
restored by Stephen Griswold 1970s
1995-date Jack Boxtrom (for sale throughout much of this period)

960
1961 Robert Publicker (Fort Lauderdale, Florida) 1.5 Climax (per L.C.Crane. Motorsports Journal Jan 1980)



961
1961 Dr. Harry Zweifel (Switzerland) 2.0 Climax, Maserati engine for 1962, Ferrari engine for 1963 (per L.C.Crane. Motorsports Journal Jan 1980)


962
1962-63 Rod Carveth USA with Buick engine (he says #964)
Bev Spencer 1963, Stan Peterson 1963-64
2006 Olav Glasius, Netherlands

963
1962 Henry Olds and Bob Colombosian USA with Buick engine
1963-64 Norm Namerow, Canada, with Ford engine and McKee transaxle
1965 Peter Lerch
1980s John Maycock rebuilt with new chassis, transmission, suspension, fitted Rover V8
1996 Brad Krause entered Laguna Seca
2006 John Delane, California

964
1963 John Coundley (and Bill de Selincourt) UK with 2.7 FPF
1964 Phil Scragg in UK hillclimbs
?later to Terry Buffum, USA

965
1962-63 Mecom Racing, USA, with 2.0 FPF (Pabst)
1964 Mecom Racing with Oldsmobile V8 (Cannon)

966, 19B
1963-65 Dan Gurney (Ford 289) North America
1965 Joe Leonard crashed tyre-testing at Riverside
1965-66 Steve Dulio (and Bondurant)
Dick Calluet (Traco-Chev)
1970s Wayne Linden (Ford)
1995-2003 (-date?) Gordon Gimbel

unknown cars USA
•Roy Schechter Nov 1961 to 1962
•new to Bob Publicker
•1962 Tom Terrrell, Chicago (2.0) > 1963 Doug Thiem
•1962-66 Dave Causey (2.5 FPF) - ex-Publicker?
•1967 Unser 19G
•1967 Allen Taylor (Buick) - ex-Carveth?
•1967-68 Pete Woods
•1968 Keith Hardy and Chuck Frederick - 954?
•Several frames built in the mid eighties in the Seattle area
•1997 Vintage Racing Services (2.5) for sale Connecticut June
•2006 John Buffum (near complete reconstruction of the SMART car of Moss)

unknown cars Canada
•1964 Dave Greenblatt (dver: Peter Lerch) “Dailu Mk4” > Larry Reilly (Chev V8) 1964-65
•Ernie DeVos Canada (rebodied)

unknown cars Europe
•Charles Vogele, Switzerland 1962
•John Scott-Davies UK 1966 – ex-Coundley?
• Peter Bloore replica chassis for original ex-Matich bits 1980 > To Joel Finn USA > Anderson Auto Museum, Boston > 2002 Brooks Quail Lodge auction

unknown cars Australia
•1963-65 Laurie O’Neil 19B (dver Matich) - new chassis etc, some parts from old car > crashed Lakeside 1965 and not rebuilt

#429 Allen Brown

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Posted 08 December 2006 - 17:00

Excellent Mark. Does that article confirm any of the other numbers in David's list?

And does LC Crane give any clues where he got his numbers? Lotus records perhaps?

Allen

#430 David McKinney

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Posted 08 December 2006 - 18:00

Yes, thanks Mark
You won't believe how many times I read my list through before posting it, and didn't notice the 966 slip :mad:

#431 olav glasius

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Posted 08 December 2006 - 20:17

Great job, David M and Mark C.

Maybe you can add a ( P) after names if there is proof.
So that others can fill the rest if proof turn up.
If this list is updated by for instance David (If he is willing of course)
we get a list that will improve all the time and will be a great piece
for Lotus history.
I am not so handy with computers but maybe you can enlarge the list
with the names I gave for 962 . Rosso Bianco museum and Chris Drake
are (P)

#432 Jerry Entin

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Posted 08 December 2006 - 20:33

On Chassis #951 during the time in 1962 when Dan Gurney was in Europe racing. The car was run by Billy Krause for the Arciero Team. Source- various race reports.
On Chassis # 952 Pete Lovely also drove for Rosebud at Laguna Seca in 1962. Source-various race reports.
On Chassis #954 according to Jerry Eisert only a few inches of the original Harrison Chassis were retained when the Harrison Special/Ford was built. Source Jerry Eisert.
On Chassis #957 Tom Carstens traded a seaplane with Chapman for the engineless chassis. He installed a Vic Edelbrock-Built alloy Buick, but could not find a transmission for it. He then had a falling out with the SCCA. Jerry Grant mortgaged his house and bought the unraced package in 1962. He installed a Colotti gearbox purchased via Phil Remington at Scarab. Source- Jerry Grant.
On Chassis #958 Roy Schechter sold the 19 to Dean Causey in the summer of 1962. Source-Dave Causey, twin brother of the late Dean Causey.
On Chassis # 959 The car was owned by Peter Ryan. Comstock was a Canadian construction company and was only a sponsor. To the best of my knowledge they didn't own the car.
On Chassis # 960 By process of elimination it is likely that the 1.5 liter 19 of Bob Publicker ended up with Tom Terrell, with 2 liter Climax power.
On Chassis #962 Bev Spencer, A Buick dealer was only a sponsor for Carveth's Buick-engined 19. It went straight to Stan Peterson. source-The late Rod Carveth.
On Chassis # 963 According to race historian Jim Sitz the Olds/Columbosian car went to Dennis Coad in 1961. Have not been able to verify this but Jim Sitz is normally utterly reliable.
On Chassis # 965 Add Walt Hansgen to the list of drivers of the Olds engined car. Source-various race reports
The only mystery Lotus 19 is the car of Dave Greenblatt's which must have had a number to get into Canada. He bought it direct from the Factory.
All information above provided by Willem Oosthoek.

#433 Jerry Entin

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Posted 10 December 2006 - 00:12

Posted Image
This one is for Olav Glasius: This is Cotati on May 2, 1963. Rod Carveth in the black #54 Lotus/Buick he is battling a doorless Tipo 151.006 Maserati driven by Skip Hudson. Carveth nicknamed his car Brutus. This picture hung in Carveth's study. Both cars ended up in the Rosso Bianco collection.
On Chassis #952 while owned by Rosebud Racing, Stirling Moss drove it in Nassau in December of 1961 and Pedro Rodriguez drove it in February of 1962 at Daytona.
picture lent site by Willem Oosthoek - all research Willem Oosthoek.

#434 olav glasius

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Posted 10 December 2006 - 00:23

Nice photo,Jerry,thanks. I didnt know that 962 was owned by Rosebud.
I have posted here on this thread a list of owners I know.
Are you sure it was 962? I have seen the Maserati a couple of weeks ago,
here in Holland. It will be auctioned this month at the Ferrari/Maserati
auction in Gstaad,Switserland. My friend who bought the collection also
ownes the auctionhouse Bonhams.

#435 Jerry Entin

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Posted 10 December 2006 - 01:22

Olav: I had a typo I corrected it, My fault #952 should have said.

#436 Mark Campbell

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Posted 10 December 2006 - 21:05

Originally posted by Jerry Entin
On Chassis #952 while owned by Rosebud Racing, Stirling Moss drove it in Nassau in December of 1961 and Pedro Rodriguez drove it in February of 1962 at Daytona.


Jerry: Do you know when in 1961 Rosebud Racing purchased chassis 952 from UDT Laystall? Micheal Oliver and I are both starting to think that it was 952 that came over for Moss for the 1961 season (starting with the Player's 200 at Mosport) and that chassis 950 stayed back in the UK that year. Any comments?

#437 Jerry Entin

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Posted 11 December 2006 - 03:36

I believe Tom O'Connor of Rosebud Team bought the Lotus 19 of BRP/UDT Laystall between the Pacific GP at Laguna Seca held Oct. 22, 1961 and Nassau Speedweek held in December of 1961. Moss drove the car at both races. The car was entered at Laguna Seca by BRP/UDT Laystall and at Nassau by Rosebud Team. In 1962 Pete Lovely was scheduled to co-drive with Pedro Rodriguez at Daytona. Pedro dropped out before Pete Lovely had a chance to take the wheel. Lovely did drive the car at Monterey in 1962. He won after Billy Krause in a 2 year old Birdcage dropped out. Ireland did drive it with 2 Liter power on the west coast in 1962. For Nassau in 1962 a 2.5 Climax engine was put in and Ireland won.
research provided by Willem Oosthoek.

#438 RA Historian

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Posted 12 December 2006 - 03:09

Pete Lovely won at Laguna Seca June 10, 1962, in the Rosebud 19. Bill Krause drove the Arciero 19 twice in 1961, at the USAC races at IRP and Continental Divide, but to no great effect.

#439 Mark Campbell

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Posted 12 December 2006 - 03:43

Originally posted by Jerry Entin
On Chassis # 959 The car was owned by Peter Ryan. Comstock was a Canadian construction company and was only a sponsor. To the best of my knowledge they didn't own the car.

The CMSHGroup here in Canada knocked it around today and also confirm that Comstock was only a sponsor for Ryan. However, Autosport Limited, the Lotus importer in Canada may have had an interest in the car as they were listed as the entrant for Ryan at the Players 200, Mosport 61. A few of the guys are trying to confirm this.

[i]On Chassis # 963 According to race historian Jim Sitz the Olds/Columbosian car went to Dennis Coad in 1961. Have not been able to verify this but Jim Sitz is normally utterly reliable.

This is interesting. Michael Oliver or Michael Snowdon: do you have any record or information linking Coad to chassis 963?

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#440 Manfred Cubenoggin

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Posted 12 December 2006 - 13:47

Hi, fellas.

To the best of my recollection, SSM had the only Lotus 19 at Mosport for the inaugural Player's 200 in 1961. True, tho, there may have been another...especially on the entry...but didn't participate. From over 40 years ago, memories are scanty and I was but 12 years old at the time.

Reference Dennis Coad, and again to the best of my recollection, he did not appear in his Lotus 19 until 1963. I've a couple of pix of him in the paddock proudly holding his new-won Driver's Championship trophy. In one, he's making a pointed effort to look straight into my lense. TY, Denny! :)

Edit: Should have noted that Denny's 19 looks like a ringer for the model campaigned by our Francis Bradley the year prior, 1962. Bradley won the Canadian title, too.



#441 David McKinney

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Posted 12 December 2006 - 14:21

If by SSM you mean Moss, I think you're right - only one Lotus 19 in the 1961 Players 200
By the time of the Canadian GP in September though there was a second, the Comstock/Ryan car
And in the Riverside race the following month they were joined by two more (Gendebien and Gurney)

I have always been happy that the Comstock/Ryan 1961 car went to Bradley 1962 then Coad 1963

#442 Jerry Entin

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Posted 12 December 2006 - 16:03

David: I think Peter Ryan didn't run his car in the 1961 Players 200 because of political trouble between the SCCA and the CRDA. The SCCA said anyone who ran in the 1961 Players 200 would lose their SCCA license. Thus, Peter Ryan who had licenses in both clubs withdrew his Lotus 19 before practice. He was thought to be able to give Moss severe competition. Chapman had built the car for Ryan only after the Canadian Lotus dealer had used his influence on him. Ryan wanted to run Moss but didn't dare go against the SCCA. In the Canadian GP there was a third Lotus 19 the BRP/Laystall entered 2 liter car for Olivier Gendebien.
research provided by Willem Oosthoek.

#443 David McKinney

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Posted 12 December 2006 - 17:41

Thanks Jerry (and Willem)

#444 Mark Campbell

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Posted 12 December 2006 - 18:23

Originally posted by olav glasius
Maybe you can add a ( P) after names if there is proof. So that others can fill the rest if proof turn up. If this list is updated by for instance David (If he is willing of course) we get a list that will improve all the time and will be a great piece for Lotus history. I am not so handy with computers but maybe you can enlarge the list with the names I gave for 962 . Rosso Bianco museum and Chris Drake
are (P)



Well, David was kind enough to put the list together, so I am happy to do my best to update it with the information that comes forward when it is timely. I am also happy to forward the 'html' version to anyone that would like to update the list for themselves.

Proof. A most interesting word. It was coincidental that my youngest son was busy with his homework the other night to define the term 'historical interpretation' or the 'proof' so to speak when in fact none can be found. Clearly, we have a good bit of this on our hands with the legacy and lineage of the seventeen Lotus 19s that we are working to piece together on this forum. And at the end of the day, I am sure that like many matters of history we must resign ourselves to some interpretation.

What I will do Olav is to color code what we know to be 'proof' or lets say good 'historical interpretation' and use another color for information that falls into some uncertainty. I am also going to try to find a way to footnote the source(s) and make this background information available to anyone who would like it. So let's see where we get to . . . it's been very interesting so far.

#445 Allen Brown

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Posted 12 December 2006 - 18:35

Complete agree Mark.

There's no such thing as historical proof, just another opinion to add into the mix. A primary source is best but ideally one written down at the time. A mechanic's 40-year-old memory might be a primary source, but I wouldn't bank on it! A contemporary Autoweek, Autosport or RCN scores high; Lotus production records score highest; David's notebooks are pretty good too.

The important thing is to note if we have something that looks solid so whenever we find ourselves asking "why do we believe that?", we'll know.

I'd love to know more about that L.C.Crane. Motorsports Journal Jan 1980 article.

Allen

#446 David Birchall

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Posted 12 December 2006 - 18:50

Larry Crane was the author of the HMSA publication "Motorsports Journal". HMSA was started by Steve Earle of Monterey Historics fame. I have all the Journals but they are in storage since I moved recently. It is a very good article--the first complete history of the Nineteens that I had ever seen but I don't recall his primary source of chassis records. Larry Crane is still around in the Historic Racing scene in n.america. Something to do with artwork I think.... :cat:

#447 Allen Brown

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Posted 12 December 2006 - 19:16

Mark kindly sent me the article and it's well written and comes across as very authorative. He has first owners plus engines and the text suggests that he had delivery dates too. The implication is that he had something from Lotus's records. However, the Nethercutt 955 is missing from the list.

Allen

#448 Mark Campbell

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Posted 12 December 2006 - 19:16

Originally posted by Allen Brown
I'd love to know more about that L.C.Crane. Motorsports Journal Jan 1980 article. Allen


Yes, I have a good quality color PDF file of the article. A little big to post at 6mb but I am happy to email to anyone who would like a copy.

#449 RA Historian

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Posted 13 December 2006 - 01:54

Originally posted by Jerry Entin
On Chassis # 959 The car was owned by Peter Ryan. Comstock was a Canadian construction company and was only a sponsor. To the best of my knowledge they didn't own the car.

Jerry is right. Comstock was involved in racing for a number of years. They ran the two rear engined Sadler Mk. V cars in 1961, later Ludwig Heimrath in a Cooper-Ford and still later they ran Ford GT-40s. Ryan owned his 19 and he ran it under the banner of Comstock RAcing Team and had it painted in thier white with green colors. The car later went to Francis Bradley, then Dennis Coad and so on as enumerated above.
Ryan was legal to run in SCCA in 1961. He could not run for them the year before because of his age. So he ran USAC only in the US besides his Canadian activity. He drove his Porsche RS-60 to 10th overall and second in the under two liter portion of the 1960 Road America USAC 200. The next year he was active in SCCA. He drove Frank Zillner's Porsche RS-61 to fifth overall, first in class EM at the 1961 Road America June Sprints. Then he drove his Lotus 19 to second overall behind Roger Penske's Maserati T-61 at Lime Rock. Next he drove the Sadler Mk. V at Meadowdale, and again finished second to Penske's Maserati, but he had the lead going into the last lap before Penske made a great overtaking maneuver. Later Ryan drove the Sadler in the Road America 500 with Grant Clark, but was a DNF. Of course, then he concentrated on his 19, winning at Mosport and doing well at the fall pro races on the west coast. He also drove a Lotus 18 at the USGP. As an aside, what a talent lost......

#450 Mark Campbell

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Posted 13 December 2006 - 02:44

Originally posted by RA Historian
Ryan owned his 19 and he ran it under the banner of Comstock RAcing Team and had it painted in their white with green colors. The car later went to Francis Bradley, then Dennis Coad and so on as enumerated above . . .


I am not certain of this, but it is my understanding that a 'white car with green stripes' was the 'official' or perhaps 'unofficial' paint scheme for Canada in international motorsport competition. Ryan's car #52 (for most events) also sported a green maple leaf with the word 'Canada' on the door panels, a sporting emblem for Canada at the time, as it was not until several years later that Canada adopted the now familiar red and white maple leaf as their national flag. After Ryan's death when the car passed to Bradley and Coad, I sense there was some significance that both Ryan's race number and the car's colours were reversed to #25 and green with white stripes. Seems too much to be just pure coincidence. Perhaps a quiet nod of respect?