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The March 782


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#1 O Volante

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Posted 24 January 2004 - 23:34

The March 782: surely a classic Formula 2 car - looking good, at least to period standards, and very successful!
Somebody around who can detail the individual histories of the ca. 28 cars produced by March?
To spare superflous work, I have the relevant Black books - but surely there are corrections and additions to be made, no the least on the history of the cars raced in Japan and the later lifes of the 782s ...
Many thanks in advance for any info!!!

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#2 Allen Brown

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Posted 25 January 2004 - 12:00

Hi O (sorry, couldn't resist)

Try 10 Tenths as well - they love this "small formula" stuff over there.

Allen

#3 O Volante

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Posted 25 January 2004 - 16:04

Many thanks, Allen
but 10/10s have to wait: sunday's over, now it's back to business!
Really no details here? :cry:

#4 Mallory Dan

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Posted 26 January 2004 - 13:34

O Volante, one of my favourite ever cars. Allen's right, I feel this subject is more suited to 10/10ths. I'll start something there, this one could run for a long-time !

#5 Kojima_KE007

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Posted 27 January 2004 - 22:11

These are the drivers who ran March 782s in All Japan F2 Championship between 1978 and 1980. I will see if I can get any info on their chassis numbers.

1978

- Hisayoshi Mitsuhashi (Racing Team Combat)
- Fumiyasu Sato
- Mark Surer
- Derek Warwick
- Bruno Giacomelli
- Stephen South

1979

- Keiji Matsumoto (Diatone Racing, Le Mas)
- Kenji Takahashi (Tomei Jidousha)
- Kunimitsu Takahashi (Speed Star Wheel Racing Team)
- Masao Segawa (Diatone Racing, Le Mans)
- Masami Kuwashima (Walter Wolf Racing Team Japan)
- Richard Thomas Geck (Kaira Garage)
- Beppe Gabbiani (Diatone Racing, Le Mans)
- Mike Thackwell (Diatone Racing, Le Mans)
- Eje Elgh (Diatone Racing, Le Mans)
- Teo Fabi (Diatone Racing, Le Mans)
- Stephen South (Speed Star Wheel Racing Team)
- Alex Ribeiro (Diatone Racing, Le Mans)
- Huub Rothengatter (Diatone Racing, Le Mans)
- Toshio Motohashi (Diatone Racing, Le Mans)

1980

- Keiji Matsumoto (Diatone Racing, Le Mans)
- Naoki Nagasaka (Speed Star Wheel Racing Team)
- Richard Thomas Geck (Richard Thomas Geck)
- Tiff Needell (Diatone Racing, Le Mans)
- Toshio Motohashi (Tonbo Racing Team)
- Kenji Takahashi (Tomei Jidousha)
- Masao Segawa (S&A Racing International)

:)

#6 Allen Brown

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Posted 28 January 2004 - 18:50

Thanks - that would be wonderful!! :clap: :clap:

#7 barrykm

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Posted 28 January 2004 - 19:10

A 782 probably also ran in Formula Atlantic guise in South Africa, driven by Ian Scheckter.

#8 O Volante

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Posted 21 February 2004 - 01:46

Many thanks, fellows - but somehow I'm a little disappointed about the outcome of this exercise ...
Well, even the proposed thread at 10/10th didn't yield too much (many thanks to Mallory Dan and all the others ...)
To be honesty, I had especially expected a little more form the Japanese contingent at TNF :confused: , and also from the people more knowledgeable about recent historic racing in Europe: as far as I can remember, in the recent years at least two 782 appeared on the continental tracks - and - hello dear NZers :) - somebody called Heron (or was it Herron?) had one at Ruapuna at around 2001 ... what has happend to all the other cars???

#9 Vicuna

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Posted 21 February 2004 - 03:27

The Heron car is the ex Teo Fabi/Ken Smith car.

Fabi used it to win the 1979 NZIGP and F.Pacific series.

As I recall, and David McKinney will know for certain, it was a 782 with side pods that were proposed for the 1979 Atlantic 79B.

#10 Mallory Dan

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Posted 23 February 2004 - 13:10

Given Fabi's March connexions, I assume the 782/79B he had down under in early 79 was a modified ex-works car. The Scheckter ZA car I've always thought was a 'proper' 79B rather than an updated 782. Ian S seemed to get brand new cars most of the time, though given the March history its sometimes difficult to distinguish between new cars and older ones modified...

#11 barrykm

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Posted 23 February 2004 - 13:25

Originally posted by Mallory Dan
The Scheckter ZA car I've always thought was a 'proper' 79B rather than an updated 782. Ian S seemed to get brand new cars most of the time, ...


You are probably right here, I think Ian's cars were semi-works at that time.

#12 petefenelon

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Posted 23 February 2004 - 14:06

Originally posted by Mallory Dan
Given Fabi's March connexions, I assume the 782/79B he had down under in early 79 was a modified ex-works car. The Scheckter ZA car I've always thought was a 'proper' 79B rather than an updated 782. Ian S seemed to get brand new cars most of the time, though given the March history its sometimes difficult to distinguish between new cars and older ones modified...


:clap: :clap: You thinking of the "new" 761B tub that Frank Williams bought - that still had traces of suspiciously Beta-looking orange paint on it?;)

#13 David McKinney

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Posted 23 February 2004 - 14:49

Fabi's 1979 NZ car was indeed adapted from one of the 1978 F2 cars (782/16, Jarier's regular mount)
It was described at the time as a 782B

#14 Don Capps

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Posted 23 February 2004 - 15:11

Originally posted by O Volante
Many thanks, fellows - but somehow I'm a little disappointed about the outcome of this exercise ...


This is something which keeps popping up lately in any number of threads. Perhaps the bar has been raised to a point where answers -- and very definitive answers at that -- are simply expected as a matter of course.

Naturally, this is quite often the case. However, for any number of reasons there are going to be times when answers simply are not going to materialize. I have had to deal with this quite a few times myself. However, it is not unusual that somewhere down the road when you least expect it or from some quarter you would never imagine, information does flow -- even if at a trickle -- into a thread to address a question often nearly forgotten.

Yes, it is frustrating not to get an answer to a question, but TNF perhaps still provides more responses to such queries than about any other forum in this sector of the universe.

Also, in some cases, as we have all come to realize, providing an answer is not all that easy and takes more time thatn initially realized.

We Try Our Best, but sometimes even our best falls a short of what we would like.

#15 Adam F

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Posted 23 February 2004 - 18:21

Wolfgang,

Sorry, I missed this thread first time round.

I have copies of some of the March factory records, including those for the 782. I'm not sure how much this adds to the data in the Black Books, but here goes :-

782P-1 Prototype - won 1977 Donington F2 race- 1978 used for testing
782-1 Ron Dennis
782-2 Toleman - Rad Dougall
782-3 Forti - Necchi
782-4 Markus Hotz
782-5 Bob Salisbury
782-6 Alex Ribiero
782-7 Team (works) - Giacomelli
782-8 Team - Surer
782-9 Team - Winkelhock
782-10 Bob Salisbury
782-11 Maublanc
782-12 Toleman - Rad Dougall
782-13 Ron Dennis
782-14 Ron Dennis
782-15 Team - Zunino - the following note is added :-
"at the end of the season, converted to Formula Atlantic spec by Vince Higgins, working for Teddy Yip. The plan is that it will be raced in Macau by Alan Jones on hire to Teddy Yip. It will then be rented to Murray Taylor for Marc Surer to race in the Tasman series. It will then be sold in New Zealand.
782-16 Maublanc
782-17 Maublanc
782-18 Forti
782-19 Pavanello-Colombo
782-20 Pavanello
782-21 Pavanello - Ghinzani - Chassis plate altered to read 782 F2/18
782-22 Markus Hotz
782-23 Brian Henton
782-24 Hotz - Biechteler
782-25 Hotz
782-26 Stephen South - Oct 78 sold to Alo Lawler
782-27 Le Mans
782-28 Le Mans
782-S1 Polifac Show Car

Both Hotz and Le Mans were agents, for Switzerland/Germany and Japan respectively.

David - Per these notes it looks like Fabi's NZ car was 782-15 not 782-16.......it certainly is more logical for this to be an ex-works car than Jarier's Maublanc car........but what the chassis plate says is often another matter!

#16 David McKinney

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Posted 23 February 2004 - 18:51

Originally posted by Adam F
Per these notes it looks like Fabi's NZ car was 782-15 not 782-16.......it certainly is more logical for this to be an ex-works car than Jarier's Maublanc car........but what the chassis plate says is often another matter!

Agree on all counts
My information above was posted from my existing notes - my principal source material has been lent out so I can't easily check further.
I have to say though that Zunino is ringing a bell in connection with the Fabi car :)

#17 Mallory Dan

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Posted 24 February 2004 - 12:59

Originally posted by petefenelon


:clap: :clap: You thinking of the "new" 761B tub that Frank Williams bought - that still had traces of suspiciously Beta-looking orange paint on it?;)


Yes Pete, but was it from Vitt's 751 or 741, or maybe even a 732 ????? Good old March, how did they ever get away with it !

#18 Mallory Dan

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Posted 24 February 2004 - 13:05

Adam, good 782 list. Did Maublanc really have 3, or did he sell them on in France ? No 26 went to Adrian Russell after South, not Alo. Can't recall after Russell. What about Forti, is he the same chap who later had the F1 team in 95-96 ?

#19 Adam F

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Posted 25 February 2004 - 02:20

Dan,
I do seem to recall that Maublanc was French agent.....he had links to hillclimbing so maybe 782-17, which doesn't seem to have appeared in F2, ended up there?
782-26 was raced by Russell, painted brown and sponsored by Aycliffe new town, in F2 in 1979.
No idea on Forti..the Team which raced 782-18 was called Astra Racing.

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#20 Mallory Dan

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Posted 26 February 2004 - 10:45

Adam, perhaps -17 went to Jimmy Mieusset, he always seemed to have new cars for French/Euro climbing in the 70s. -26, the Russell car was mainly raced in Aurora in 79, very nicely prepared, but AR wasn't very quick. The Aycliffe suppoort went to my 'mate' KIm Mather in 80, he had a new Kallay owned 802, but it proved disappointing that year.

As for the Astra/Necchis cars, did they have 2, -3 and -18? I recall they introduced Pirelli tyres that year, which raised a few eyebrows against the Goodyear monopoly.

Any more interesting March stories !!

#21 O Volante

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Posted 08 March 2004 - 01:33

Hi Folks,
as said before, for some reason I'm currently not able to post too often. Nevertheless, many, many thanks to everybody who contributed to the discussion on the topic so far, here and also at 10/10s! No question, special merit to Adam, for the word from "the horse's mouth" :)

Well, there was also the question of 782s in Historic racing: I know about four cars appearing in them
1) As also mentioned before, Warren Heron raced the NZ car in the 1998 and 1999 NZHGP.
Some google research revealed the other appearances:
2) Michel Quinion, in Europe 2002 and 2003
3) Gordon Medenica, in Europe and the US, plus
4) a certain Georg Neubauer, at the Ecce Homo hillclimb in 1984 (7th, in 6m 37.3s)

Anybody with details about the identity of nos. 2,3 and 4?

#22 gerard BARATHIEU

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Posted 10 March 2004 - 15:10

about MARCH does anyone has the registry of the MARCH 712/M from 1971;

as i know i have R.PETERSON
W.FITTIPALDI
JP JAUSSAUD
J.CANNON
N.LAUDA
D.QUESTER
M.BEUTTLER
JP.JARIER
T.BRAMBILLA
C.PACE
V.BRAMBILLA
J.MAX
C.ETHUIN
H.WERNER
with these cars but i have no idee of the chassis's number.

Can somebody help me?

Thanks in advance.

#23 fines

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Posted 10 March 2004 - 16:51

Some notes on the Japanese cars:

Originally posted by Kojima_KE007
These are the drivers who ran March 782s in All Japan F2 Championship between 1978 and 1980. I will see if I can get any info on their chassis numbers.

1978

- Hisayoshi Mitsuhashi (Racing Team Combat)
- Fumiyasu Sato possibly the same car as Surer
- Mark Surer Aeroflot sponsored
- Derek Warwick Le Mans Company, possibly the same as Mitsuhashi
- Bruno Giacomelli same car as Surer
- Stephen South DNA

Total of probably only 2 cars

1979

- Keiji Matsumoto (Diatone Racing, Le Mas)
- Kenji Takahashi (Tomei Jidousha)
- Kunimitsu Takahashi (Speed Star Wheel Racing Team)
- Masao Segawa (Diatone Racing, Le Mans)
- Masami Kuwashima (Walter Wolf Racing Team Japan)
- Richard Thomas Geck (Kaira Garage) possibly the same car as Matsumoto
- Beppe Gabbiani (Diatone Racing, Le Mans)
- Mike Thackwell (Diatone Racing, Le Mans)
- Eje Elgh (Diatone Racing, Le Mans)
- Teo Fabi (Diatone Racing, Le Mans)
- Stephen South (Speed Star Wheel Racing Team) same car as Nagasaka
- Alex Ribeiro (Diatone Racing, Le Mans)
- Huub Rothengatter (Diatone Racing, Le Mans) DNA
- Toshio Motohashi (Diatone Racing, Le Mans)

Gabbiani, Ribeiro, Segawa, Fabi, Thackwell, Elgh and probably Motohashi all the same car

Total of probably only 5 cars


1980

- Keiji Matsumoto (Diatone Racing, Le Mans)
- Naoki Nagasaka (Speed Star Wheel Racing Team)
- Richard Thomas Geck (Richard Thomas Geck)
- Tiff Needell (Diatone Racing, Le Mans)
- Toshio Motohashi (Tonbo Racing Team) possibly ex-Kunimitsu Takahashi car
- Kenji Takahashi (Tomei Jidousha)
- Masao Segawa (S&A Racing International) DNA

Takahashi, Matsumoto and Needell possibly all the same car

Total of 4 cars?


:) [/B]


1981/2

- Yoshiyuki Ogura

#24 IMV

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Posted 24 March 2004 - 19:37

Originally posted by gerard BARATHIEU
about MARCH does anyone has the registry of the MARCH 712/M from 1971;

as i know i have R.PETERSON
W.FITTIPALDI
JP JAUSSAUD
J.CANNON
N.LAUDA
D.QUESTER
M.BEUTTLER
JP.JARIER
T.BRAMBILLA
C.PACE
V.BRAMBILLA
J.MAX
C.ETHUIN
H.WERNER
with these cars but i have no idee of the chassis's number.

Can somebody help me?

Thanks in advance.


"Tino" Brambilla - 712M-18 (some time ago was for sale at RaceCarDirect.com)

Michal

#25 Mallory Dan

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Posted 02 April 2004 - 16:16

Unsurprisingly a good number of 782s turned up in Britain from 1979 onwards. Anyone have any detail on these. I reckon the following all had cars in 1979 - Adrian Russell, Paul Smith, Phil Dowsett, Andy Barton, David Franklin, Charlie Kirby, plus at least 1 other in hillclimbing. As well, there were those retained for Euro F2 that year, ie one for Dougall, at least one for Colombo, possibly Henton's team too.

#26 Reyna

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Posted 02 April 2004 - 17:14

Originally posted by gerard BARATHIEU
about MARCH does anyone has the registry of the MARCH 712/M from 1971;

as i know i have R.PETERSON
W.FITTIPALDI
JP JAUSSAUD
J.CANNON
N.LAUDA
D.QUESTER
M.BEUTTLER
JP.JARIER
T.BRAMBILLA
C.PACE
V.BRAMBILLA
J.MAX
C.ETHUIN
H.WERNER
with these cars but i have no idee of the chassis's number.

Can somebody help me?

Thanks in advance.


1.971 March 712

712-1 C. Francisci
712-2 D.Bell / C. Ethuin
712-3 H. Werner
712-4 J. Max / H. Pescarolo
712-5 M. Beuttler
712-6 X. Perrot
712-7 R. Peterson
712-8 ?
712-9 N. Lauda
712-10 J. P. Jarier
712-11 J. P. Jaussaud
712-12 ?
712-13 ?
712-14 D. Quester
712-15 J. Cannon
712-16 R. Link
712-17 W. Fittipaldi
712-18 G. Birrel / E. Brambilla / T. Walkinshaw
712-19 G. Salvati
712-20 C. Pace
712-21 F. Migault / S. Gunnarsson


Rafa

#27 Allen Brown

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Posted 02 April 2004 - 19:04

Rafa

Thanks - great stuff!

What's your source for these? F1 Register or March records?

Allen

#28 Reyna

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Posted 02 April 2004 - 19:35

Originally posted by Allen Brown
Rafa

Thanks - great stuff!

What's your source for these? F1 Register or March records?

Allen

Allen

My source is the italian magazine Autospint #40, 1971 october 4-11. There is a complete list with all the 1.971 F2 type numbers and chassis.
If you're intersted i can send you an scan by pm....



BTW, i have found a rare F5000, the 1972 Kitchiner K8 -Rolls-Royce engine. Do you know this car ???



Rafa

#29 Allen Brown

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Posted 03 April 2004 - 07:55

Rafa

Yes please - I'll PM my email address to you.

Thanks

Allen

#30 fines

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Posted 03 April 2004 - 16:59

Originally posted by Mallory Dan
Unsurprisingly a good number of 782s turned up in Britain from 1979 onwards. Anyone have any detail on these. I reckon the following all had cars in 1979 - Adrian Russell, Paul Smith, Phil Dowsett, Andy Barton, David Franklin, Charlie Kirby, plus at least 1 other in hillclimbing. As well, there were those retained for Euro F2 that year, ie one for Dougall, at least one for Colombo, possibly Henton's team too.

Henton and Dougall were teammates at Toleman, and both raced modified 782s at the Nürburgring, so there must've been at least two in the team. Colombo's Sanremo team also had two, if I'm not mistaken, also the TOJ team which was by then owned by Austrian Klaus Walz. Fredy Lienhard's LISTA team also had at least one, raced by Regazzoni at the Hemberg hill climb.

#31 gerard BARATHIEU

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Posted 03 April 2004 - 19:58

REYNA,

thanks for this remarkable job !

the question should be now where are they ?

I was to the paul ricard in 1999 and that was i note:

MARCH 712M/19 with Walter NEF (switzerland)(ex Jolly club/G.SALVATI)
MARCH 712 B/6:JJ. GRAVIER (france) Formule Atlantic car
MARCH 712 M12 or 24:john PEARSON(GB)
MARCH 712 A/11:Freddy KUMSCHICK (switzerland)
MARCH 712 M/8:philipp WALKER (GB) ex Graham COAKER (ecurie ecosse)

I have the photos of these cars.

an other question about AUTOS SPRINT :i look after AUTO SPRINT from 1969.

Have you some or could you daid me where find them?

Thank you in advance.

#32 David McKinney

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Posted 03 April 2004 - 20:12

John Pearson (Jr) was racing 712M-24 about that time. 712M-12 was, I think, part of the Fredy Kumschick fleet

#33 tyrrellp34

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Posted 04 April 2004 - 07:40

Here some pictures from Bruno Giacomelli in his March 782 from 1982 :wave:

Posted Image

Posted Image

Donnington 1978...
Posted Image

I am not sure but have heard once that he was also designing some parts of the car.

#34 tyrrellp34

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Posted 04 April 2004 - 07:45

Another Giacomelli drive for March in late 1990

Posted Image

#35 Allen Brown

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Posted 04 April 2004 - 12:16

Rafa

That Autosprint list is very interesting but it doesn't agree in all places with other sources. For exaple, I noticed straight away that it has Brian Nelson's Crossle as 18F-70-02 whereas Race Report has it as 18F-70-01. And Gagliardi has gone missing from the table. That said, Race Report gets the last two races the wrong way round so I don't know what to trust.

Also, Race Report mentions that Lauda's 712M-9 and Jarier's 712M-10 swapped chassis numbers after a testing accident before the Rouen race.

Allen

#36 fines

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Posted 04 April 2004 - 15:53

Originally posted by tyrrellp34
Donnington 1978...
Posted Image

I am not sure but have heard once that he was also designing some parts of the car.

Judging from the pics, a new suspension geometry and a new rear aerofoil, perhaps?;)

What's that the marshal's saying to him, "You can't park here! Reverse! Reverse! You can't park here!" :lol:

#37 Mallory Dan

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Posted 05 April 2004 - 14:29

712M-8, if its the ex-Coaker car, it later went to Mike Mather, brother of Kim. Now owned by Philip Walker I gather. Btw there's some more 782 stuff over on 10/10ths.

#38 Allen Brown

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Posted 05 April 2004 - 18:15

Originally posted by Allen Brown
Rafa

That Autosprint list is very interesting but it doesn't agree in all places with other sources. For exaple, I noticed straight away that it has Brian Nelson's Crossle as 18F-70-02 whereas Race Report has it as 18F-70-01 ...

Allen

Allen is talking utter rubbish again. There were, as any schoolboy knows, two Crosslé 18Fs, the first (18F-70-01) being Nelson's regular FVA-powered libre and occasional F2 car in 1970; and the other (18F-70-02) being the Formula B car shipped over for Sebring at the end of 1970 and then returned to the UK and put into F2 specification for Nelson to drive at the Mallory Park race in March 1971. I already had this latter car on my own site quite correctly as 18F-70-02 at Mondello F5000 May 1971.

Humble apologies.

Allen

#39 Reyna

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Posted 05 April 2004 - 19:34

Allen, a question... What 18F chassis was who ran Tetsu Ikuzawa at the 1971 Gran Premio de Bogotá ???

Posted Image
Tetsu Ikuzawa, Crosslé 18F
Autosprint



Posted Image
Brian Nelson with the 18F-70-01 or 02 ????
Autosprint



Posted Image
The Crosslé 18F F2/FB, 17F F3 and 16F FF. March 1.970.
L'automobile

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#40 Allen Brown

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Posted 06 April 2004 - 06:46

Originally posted by Reyna
Allen, a question... What 18F chassis was who ran Tetsu Ikuzawa at the 1971 Gran Premio de Bogotá ???

As 70-02 was said by Autosport to have been hastily converted to F2 form and virtually untested as such, the Ikuzawa car must have been 70-01. I wonder what happened to it next.

Allen

#41 Reyna

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Posted 06 April 2004 - 06:53

Many thanks Allen !!!!!

#42 IMV

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Posted 07 April 2004 - 19:32

Originally posted by O Volante
Hi Folks,
...............
4) a certain Georg Neubauer, at the Ecce Homo hillclimb in 1984 (7th, in 6m 37.3s)

Anybody with details about the identity of nos. 2,3 and 4?



The driver is Georg Neugebauer, he started there in 1983 and 1984, and his car was 782-22.

Michal

#43 Adam F

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Posted 12 April 2004 - 12:13

As a belated response to Gerard Barathieu's request for details of March 712M's, I can add the following from the (sporadic) March factory records of which I have copies :-

712M-1 Test Car
712M-2 Frank Williams
712M-3 Eifelland
712M-4 Frank Williams
712M-5 Mike Beuttler
712M-6 Xavier Perrot
712M-7 Ronnie Peterson
712M-8 Tom Walkinshaw
712M-9 N. Lauda, Sold to French Hillclimber Gerard as 712M-10
712M-10 JP Jaussaud, Sold to Colin Andrews
712M-11 JP Jarier, Sold to J Joliat, Switzerland
712M-12 Graham Coaker
712M-14 Quester
712M-15 John Cannon
712M-16 Fredy Link
712M-17 Wilson Fittipaldi
712M-18 Ala d'Oro
712M-19 Ala d'Oro
712M-20 Carlos Pace
712M-21 Hire Car

#44 gerard BARATHIEU

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Posted 12 April 2004 - 15:12

thank you very much ADAM.

I was in the GP de ROUEN in 1971 and i saw many of these cars in action.

There was a lot of French drivers with JP BELTOISE in PYGMEE,F.CEVERT in TECNO ,

Bob WOLLEK in a BRABHAM BT 36,JP JABOUILLE on a TECNO,P.DEPAILLER in a TECNO,

H.BAYARD (CHEVRON B18),A.POTOCKI(LOTUS 69),F.MIGAULT(LOTUS 69),F.MAZET (CHEVRON B18),

L.NOGHES (BRABHAM BT 30), and on 712/M:

three F.WILLIAMS entry:C.PACE (712 M20 ),Jean MAX(?),C.ETHUIN(?)

two EIFELLAND CARAVANES:D.QUESTER (712M 14),H.WERNER(712 M 3)

plus R.PETERSON,N.LAUDA,E.BRAMBILLA,JP JAUSSAUD,M.BEUTTLER,J.CANNON ,V.BRAMBILLA.

I have photos of the cars of PETERSON,LAUDA,QUESTER,PACE,ETHUIN.

What good old days.