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Jackie Stewart and De Tomaso in 1970


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#1 Marc

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Posted 02 February 2004 - 20:54

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Jackie Stewart drived the DeTomaso of Piers Courage in practice in 1970 to Silverstone. Why ?
He drived March 701 in this race. Have you other photos of this évenement ?

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#2 Rob Ryder

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Posted 02 February 2004 - 21:02

Marc
Piers Courage, who was to drive the car, was racing at Monza for Alfa Romeo sportscar team when practice/qualifying was held at Silverstone. The new de Tomaso had not done any testing so Jackie Stewart agreed to give it a 'shake down' test during one of the practice sessions.

I believe that Brian Redman and Roy Pike also drove the car in the practice sessions.

Piers started from the back of the grid (25th) in both heats and came through to finish 3rd in both heats :up: .

Rob

#3 Marc

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Posted 02 February 2004 - 22:44

Thank you for this information, Rob ;) it was really a different " époque " !

#4 Rob Ryder

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Posted 02 February 2004 - 22:50

Yes, Marc, a different time...
Maybe Schumi or Kimi will help sort the Minardi at the next test.. :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

#5 D-Type

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Posted 02 February 2004 - 23:35

Rob,

Great minds must think alike! *

I was just composing a post with different era, Schumacher and Minardi in it when my computer locked up. But yours puts it better.

JYS must have done a good job if the car finished 3rd!






* (OK I know they also say that fools seldom differ :blush:

#6 Vitesse2

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Posted 02 February 2004 - 23:42

I always wondered how good the de Tomaso could have been if .... : ):

#7 Rob Ryder

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Posted 03 February 2004 - 08:42

Jackie Stewart driving Frank's de Tomaso was not an isolated incident… here are a few more from that period that I remember.

During practice for the 1969 British Grand Prix at Silverstone Graham Hill, while waiting for his Lotus to be prepared, did some laps in Jacky Ickx Brabham BT26A. Graham recorded a time 0.6 faster than Ickx in the session. Remember that Graham was the current World Champion, and the Brabham team was a strong contender (and rival) in 1969.

During the 1970 season, as well as driving the de Tomaso, Jackie Stewart also did one or two test sessions for Matra, running the MS120.

More amazing to me was when Jody Scheckter drove the Wolf-Williams at Watkins Glen in 1976. Jody was contracted to Tyrrell in 1976, but had signed to race for Walter Wolf in 1977. Ken allowed him to do run in the Williams FW05 during untimed practice sessions at the Glen :cool: .
Will we see JMP running a few test sessions for McLaren this year? ;)

It was not always as 'easy going' as this though. I remember reading that Lou Stanley was not amused when he heard that Howden Ganley had been driving one of Frank's cars at the end of 1972, while contracted to BRM. Howden never drove a BRM again, and was dropped from the Victory Race at Brands (replaced by Vern Schuppan). :rolleyes:

#8 Marc

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Posted 03 February 2004 - 09:06

Amazing !
Stewart and MS120, I would like to see a photo of that !
Thanks for infos, Rob ;)

#9 karlcars

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Posted 03 February 2004 - 09:26

Of course the DeTomaso represented the beginning of the single-seater design career of Gianpaolo Dallara. He hasn't done too badly since!!!

#10 PeterElleray

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Posted 03 February 2004 - 11:26

I have often wondered if there might have been more to this than meets the eye. At this time KT was getting the first Tyrrell underway, and although it was still 'secret' JYS would have been in the loop. The decision had already been taken to drop the March.

I wonder if this was a useful opportunity to see if the Dallara designed DTM might be a viable alternative were the 'SP' -as Tyrrell 001 was known at the time - not to make the grade? I believe the Matra tests were undertaken with a view to reassessing the v12 for similar reasons.

So, were KT and JYS hedging their bets, and looking at running a DTM in place of the March, or, slightly less plausible, was JYS looking for a alternate and thinking of Frank Williams and his new car? Ive read somewhere that JYS did say that if he couldn't drive for KT he would have seriously considered FW.

These sort of tests usually have a hidden agenda!

Is there a new thread here - what were JYS's options in 1970 for an F1 drive in 1971?

#11 Rob Ryder

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Posted 03 February 2004 - 14:59

I have just finished re-reading 'Faster' by Strewart/Manso, and it is clear that Jackie was 'in the loop' from the very beginning of the Tyrrell 001 project. From the book it seems that staying with Ken for 1971 was not dependent on how competitive the Tyrrell 001 was, but more on getting tyres for the damn thing!

Dunlop were withdrawing at the end of 1970, which left Tyrrell and Stewart without a tyre contract. Stewart was negotiating a contract with Goodyear for most of 1970, and trying to convince them that Ken was the team to back. Goodyear preferred Stewart to drive for either Brabham or McLaren, but Jackie wanted to stay with Ken.

The book is in 'diary format', but there is no mention of the de Tomaso drive at Silverstone. The Matra tests are mentioned, but without elaboration... strange :confused: .

If you can get hold of a copy of 'Faster' I can recommend it... a good read... even second or and third time around. :up:
Rob

#12 PeterElleray

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Posted 03 February 2004 - 15:48

Hi Rob,

I have a copy of Faster, and you are quite right in everything you say. However, I think that some of the events that you refer to happen a little later in the season. The DTM 'test' was at the International Trophy race at Silverstone in April, and you are right, its not in the book (Conspiracy theorists please join the thread here..). At that point Dunlop had not (i think) announced they were withdrawing (i'll check tonight, there is a piece in the diary where KT and JYS are told), and the 'SP' was still on the drawing board, and unproven.

I just find it a bit 'odd' that JYS jumped into the DTM to 'help out' at a time when he had such a 'downer' on the March, and so many question marks in the air. I think you are on the right lines when you say it is strange that the Matra tests were not explained further. BTW, that would mean that both Stewart and Amon tested the Matra during the latter half of 1970...

Another thought, what tyres was the DTM on? I can check that tonight aswell. If my memory is correct JYS only drove the car in the wet, otherwise it would be tempting to suggest he was either trying to eliminate one or the other of the tyres or chassis from the March equation.

I'm sure that the comments i have read about driving for FW date from much later - i think maybe around the time that FW started to have real success in F1, long after JYS had retired. But they were phrased retrospectively, ie, 'if i couldn't drive for Ken then..' and i'm sure there is a connection here somewhere!

Tyrrell was obviously the prefered choice, and i would speculate that the scenario might have been for KT to run the car for JYS, but i believe that at that time he was also having to seriously consider what he might do if there was no competitive car avaliable to him there, either because neither Brabham nor McLaren would sell him one (its in the book) or the 'SP', for whatever reason, flopped. He would have known at this time that he would have the answer to that before the end of 1970.

Given that he has said in print that he would not have driven a Lotus, and assuming that the v12 would have put them off BRM as indeed it had put them off Matra at the end of 1969, then if you look at what else was around, and discount Ferrari (for obvious reasons), and March, and Surtees (yet to appear and presumably as big an unknown as 'SP' and out of their direct control) what have you got?

Matra and DeTomaso. Both of which he tests. It would be interesting to know of any other example of JYS tesing the oppositions cars between, say, 1965 and 1973 - i can't think of one OTTOMH.

Anyway, what the hell. 001 turned out to be a solid success and i have to agree that it is a bit of a stretch to think of JYS trundling around in that ex- works Politoys March.

#13 PeterElleray

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Posted 04 February 2004 - 14:50

Just to follow up the previous thread, i checked 'Faster', and Dunlop initially announced their withdrawal in late 1969, which produced the scenario where JYS would have driven either for McLaren, or a works/private Brabham. They also approached Lola at this time by Eric Broadley eventually concluded that he was overcommitted to be ableto help.

Dunlop then reversed that decision (largely, as it reads down to JYS wearing them down (or out)), but both JYS and KT approached 1970 on the assumption that this was just a stay of execution. Their withdrawal was finally confirmed on June 11th.

JYs tested the Matra MS120 twice, initially two days after the British GP. He ran Beltoise' race car. He liked the chassis, and was less impressed with the engine.

Later, in pre race testing just before the Italian GP he tried again, running in the Matra in the morning, then getting into the 'SP' Tyrrell Ford after lunch and THEN switching to the Mach 701 when that had fuel system problems. He realtes all of this in a very matter of fact way, as if it happens every day of the week!

Now, move forward to Sept 18th, and 'SP' is not going all that well in pre race testing at St.Jovite, and we get "If I leave it puts Ken in a difficult position, but with all that's been happening, the only way to keep me is to convince m he's got a car that can do it. He's got the operation, yes, but with people like Ferrari, BRM,Brabham and Matra avaliable, i can be influenced... I can go to Matra tomorrow. their car can't be all that bad if Pescarolo and Beltoise are going as fast as they are, and Ken knows this..."

So there it is.

BTW, the DeTomaso did run Dunlops, like the TyrrellMarch,and that possibly backs up one of the reasons for that April test - eliminate the tyre from the equation. I wonder if a Tyrrell DeTomaso was ever on the cards?

#14 Rob Ryder

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Posted 04 February 2004 - 15:22

If Goodyear had not agreed to back Ken from 1971 onwards, the performance of the Tyrrell 001 may not have mattered, because Tyrell would have been struggling.

It is my feeling that Stewart would have gone back to Matra for 1971, and we would probably have Jackie winning only a single World Championship. I know that it is all 'ifs', but without three World Championships to his name would Stewart have had the 'authority' to push his safety campaign in the mid-seventies?

Maybe if Goodyear had said 'No' to Tyrrell we would still have Spa, Clermont and of course a REAL Nurburgring... (dream on :love: )

#15 PeterElleray

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Posted 04 February 2004 - 21:29

Hi Rob,

Interesting point.

I think you are probably correct. Its quite interesting reading through the book how hard the reigning world champion was having to fight to secure that Goodyear contract. No mention of Firestone in there, unless i've missed it, wonder why they weren't approached? Can one almost envisage a Stewartless Tyrrell Racing Organisation, without significant sponsorship running a March 711 for a pay driver?! Before we laugh at the thought reflect on where the team ended up in the early 1980's....

I agree that Stewarts most likely option , given his contacts and connections would have been with Matra. Its intriguing to speculate how, with his application and possibly once again with Tyrrell running the car it might have faired in 1971. Maybe this is a topic that the Amon thread should debate?!

I suppose that replacing Brabham might have been an option (interesting to reflect where Graham Hill would have ended up in that instance), i'm intrigued by the references to 'stalling Ferrari' aswell - i had forgotten about that and reflecting on it now after having read much more about his negotiations with Ferrari in 1967 it doesn't quite ring true.

He also refers to BRM in a positive light, presumably after the appearance of the P153, and Spa this would have been a relatively serious option?

One thing is clear though, there is no reference to Frank Williams or DeTomaso in the book, and whatever the motives for that April test, by autumn 1970, post Zandvoort, with DeTomaso having lost all interest, this was clearly not even being considered.

#16 petefenelon

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Posted 04 February 2004 - 22:14

I've seen it said in several places that JYS thought that his only chance of continued success was with a DFV behind him. The Tyrrell-Matra split was because Matra insisted upon running V12s...

So I don't think there's any way that JYS could've carried on in a Matra.

March - no improvement!
Brabham - too risky, with Jack gone and Ron on his own, no sign yet of Bernie taking over.... although Bernie and JYS might've made an interesting partnership?
Surtees - as you said, not established yet.
De Tomaso - probably not, not after Zandvoort, as you say.
Lotus - Well.... Chapman needed a star for '71. But I don't see JYS in a 72.
McLaren - again, another team in need of a star. Could whatever backing JYS brought outweigh whatever clashed with McLaren's?
BRM - Not willing to allow a BRM-Cosworth hybrid, due to it being an "American" engine...

I reckon that of the two viable options for 71 - McLaren or Brabham - McLaren would've been a better bet. Reasonably well-established team with a lucrative sideline in Can-Am, needed an F1 star and top development driver after Bruce's death...

Brabham for '71 doesn't really add up, I don't see JYS + Hill in the same team by '71 - particularly as Hill was by that point unargably past his best.

There's also the chance that (and we're into the realms of high fantasy here) JYS and Ecclestone, at a loose end after Rindt's death and yet to buy Brabham, could've combined to split Robin Herd off from March (still financially pretty unsteady and already starting to feel the rift between the Mosley/Herd oriented works team and the Coaker/Rees/Herd production car operation).... doing what Herd and Rindt were originally thinking of, a tight little operation with one star driver.... Maybe you get JYS, Bernie and Herd taking over Brabham, possibly with Herd working alongside Ron?

As for the production car manufacturers, '71 would've been a bit too early to go and get Derek Bennett to do a chassis... (although a B24-DFV a wee bit later makes all kinds of sense!); not sure whether Lola had much capacity in '71.... GRD, were they ready to do something like that in '71 or not for another year?... Difficult to think of anyone else who was in a position to do anything. Tecno-DFV? Probably would've been awful.

Barry, what were the odds of JYS turning out in a Connew?;)

#17 Vitesse2

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Posted 04 February 2004 - 22:26

Small point, Pete, but surely Bernie wasn't involved with the Brabham F1 operation in 1971? Wasn't he winding down his F2 commitments at that point and regrouping after Jochen's death?

#18 petefenelon

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Posted 04 February 2004 - 22:34

Originally posted by Vitesse2
Small point, Pete, but surely Bernie wasn't involved with the Brabham F1 operation in 1971? Wasn't he winding down his F2 commitments at that point and regrouping after Jochen's death?


Yes, my implication was that Bernie was out of the F1 game at that point, but Brabham was possibly available post-Jack, and maybe if he'd got involved with JYS and Herd a March split (and partial merger with Brabham) with JYS as the star driver might've happened....

#19 PeterElleray

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Posted 05 February 2004 - 09:05

I have seen something in print that alludes to negotiations between Tauranac and BE at an earlier (possibly late 1970) date - i will try to find the source (was it the Tauranac bio of a few years ago?).
From what I've read more recently a Stewart/BE combination would have sent up a few sparks!

McLaren is interesting because it seems from 'Faster' that the main sticking point in late 69 was financial, ie the size of JYS retainer. There is also reference to Denny Hulme not being too impressed (the situation is analagous to Fittipaldi joining in 1974 (?) although i think by then Hulme was winding down). I remember also that JYS did sign to drive Can-Am for McLaren in 1972 but never took up the drive after his health issues surfaced. Very much his sort of environment I would have thought, a nice idea.

Regarding Brabham, i certainly wasn't implying Stewart and Hill in the team together, for the reasons you state, and albo - possibly - the question of resources for two high profile drivers. I think GH would never have ended up there had JYS arrived (unless of course his car had been run from Ockham by the Tyrrell Racing Organisation). Spool forward two years and you also have a JYS/Goron Murray combination, that is, had the presence of JYS not altered the whole staus quo between Tauranac/Ecclestone etc.

I'm very intrigued by the thought of a splinter group with BE/Robin Herd and Stewart - does Ken Tyrrell fit into this? If not, why not? Anybody got any thoughts on this?

The bottom line, i think, is that mid 1970 any one of these scenario's (and others) would have been floating around, and that includes Matra, engine not withstanding. 1970 was the year in which a number of reliability issues hit the DFV , and JYS has a number of engine related problems which he is probably weighing up against his relative coolness towards the Matra v12.

Before the 'SP' proves itself, and the Goodyear and Elf contracts are signed on the back of it, it is very clear from what is going on in the background that JYS is pursuing all his options, both with Tyrrell and elsewhere, and although earlier in the year he states more than once that he wouldn't consider leaving Ken, by September Ken has to show him he has a car capable of delivering.

Fortunately, and after some frustrating early tests, this is exactly what happens. From that point on (Canadian GP), there doesn't seem to be any realsitic possibility of the Stewart/Tyrrell partnership not continuing.