331 replies to this topic

[Doug Nye]

A memorable part of Paul Hawkins' story of his 'blow-over' accident - if I recall correctly - was that the car slid so far upside down that he had time to realise his crash helmet was rapidly wearing through against the track surface so he said he then began to "...wiggle my head around to equalise the wear before it wore through".

 

DCN

[Lee Nicolle]

Patents--in the US anyway--are "interesting" as to what is deemed "patentable" at any given time (I have a few myself...). This part of the discussion triggered a memory of Len Terry's three piece wheel design circa 1968-69 so after the Chaparral design. This from Len Terry/Alan Baker "Racing Car Design and Development" that covers Len Terry's designs up thru 1973.

With wheels nothing is new. Improved maybe but that is about it.

Composite [3 piece] wheels have been around in racing since the later 60s. And magnesium wheels on aircraft pre WW2

Full cast wheels in a zillion styles have been around even longer. And as I said in 'classic' styles nothing is new.

There must be a hundred manufacturers over the decades of the Minilite. And I believe even that was a clone. The early Lotus's used a wheel not disimilar.

And having looked a clip of a T model Ford the style was even there. We just need a return of hickory in wheel manufacture

Some of those multispoke rally car wheels that break through the spokes very regularly should look at hickory,, far stronger than those garbage wheels.

Edited by Lee Nicolle, 12 August 2020 - 07:52.

[sabrejet]

Bit off-topic but wasn't the Minilite a copy/affectionate tribute to a Cooper wheel?

[Bob Riebe]

Bit off-topic but wasn't the Minilite a copy/affectionate tribute to a Cooper wheel?

As technology progressed the quantity of volatile magnesium used in wheel production was reduced. Many of today’s ‘mag’ wheels are made primarily from aluminium. One that used magnesium alloy to great effect was the ‘Minilite’ wheel developed for competition use by BMC Minis. These wheels were distinguished by eight short, rounded spokes on a polished or black enamelled rim.

[jacko]

Going back a while to an earlier thread on this topic, I notice that 3 of the first 6 on the grid at Riverside in 1967 were Ford powered. Interesting to speculate upon what might have been had Ford taken the series more seriously. Phil Kerr mentions in his book that Ford backed off from funding the works McLaren team in 1969 as their view was that success could not be achieved on the sums they had requested. It was far too little! Amazing!

[john aston]

Jim Pace has several in-car videos on youtube that are worth watching for the sound alone.

Sorry - a bit late to the thread , but the Jim Pace videos are indeed wonderful - a model of how it should be done , beautifully shot and edited , with no extraneous music. Just (as in the Shadow's  case) the symphony of a big block Chevy. He has raced a lot of stuff including Daytona, GT 40 , E type and sundry Can Am McLarens, all of which are on YouTube .

 

Turn the volume up to 11 and enjoy     

[rl1856]

Going back a while to an earlier thread on this topic, I notice that 3 of the first 6 on the grid at Riverside in 1967 were Ford powered. Interesting to speculate upon what might have been had Ford taken the series more seriously. Phil Kerr mentions in his book that Ford backed off from funding the works McLaren team in 1969 as their view was that success could not be achieved on the sums they had requested. It was far too little! Amazing!

 

The only real success achieved in sports car racing by Ford occurred when there was direct factory backing.  Ford focused on LeMans, and once that goal was achieved (twice) they retreated to Nascar, Trans Am, and Indy.   OTOH Chevy not only directly supported several teams, there was a large private base of owners, engineers, etc dedicated to success using Chevy power.  

 

I am sure that McLaren would have done very well in 1969 by using Ford power.  Would they have won all of the races that year ?    I don't think so.  Ford did make an offer to McLaren (and others) in 1968, and eventually offered an aluminum block engine, but the combination of Chevys' commitment, and inherent quality of the Chevy ZL1 engine meant the balance was in favor of Chevy.

 

Some background....excuse the melodramatic prose style.....

 

https://www.hotrod.c...t-motor-racing/

[E1pix]

Very good article, Thanks!

[kayemod]

The only real success achieved in sports car racing by Ford occurred when there was direct factory backing.  Ford focused on LeMans, and once that goal was achieved (twice) they retreated to Nascar, Trans Am, and Indy.   OTOH Chevy not only directly supported several teams, there was a large private base of owners, engineers, etc dedicated to success using Chevy power.  

 

I am sure that McLaren would have done very well in 1969 by using Ford power.  Would they have won all of the races that year ?    I don't think so.  Ford did make an offer to McLaren (and others) in 1968, and eventually offered an aluminum block engine, but the combination of Chevys' commitment, and inherent quality of the Chevy ZL1 engine meant the balance was in favor of Chevy.

 

Some background....excuse the melodramatic prose style.....

 

https://www.hotrod.c...t-motor-racing/

 

A very good article, but it left out an important factor in Chevrolet's initial CanAm success. One reason for a near universal early Chevy preference, was that compared to the equivalent Ford, the ubiquitous small block Chevy was more suited to racing and tuning, though of course both were originally planned as engines for ordinary road cars. The Ford engine was somewhat lighter, but although both had a similar bore limit, a higher deck height on the Chevy meant that it could be stroked to an extra litre, which wasn't possible with the Ford 350, though the later 351 block was better. In the entire history of CanAm, there was only ever a single Ford win, scored by Dan Gurney in a Lola T70 with a high-revving 305ci (5 litre) engine with his own Gurney-Weslake heads. This engine had a near 2000 revs and about 30 hp advantage over contemporary Chevys in the McLarens and most others, but in comparison it lacked the torque and driveability their extra litre or so of displacement gave them. When McLarens won all the time with Chevys, that became the obvious route to follow, but McLaren and Chaparral both got a lot of 'unofficial' help from GM, special alloy big blocks etc, and GM clearly appreciated the publicity that winning provided. In comparison, although they occasionally appeared with one-off engines, Ford never really seemed to be serious about CanAm, which was surprising considering the success the 7 litre Mk IVs had at LeMans. I don't think there's much doubt that Ford could have succeeded if they'd made a serious effort, but their relatively slow moving "corporate" approach would always work against them, they didn't seem to be willing to do things on a faster moving smaller organisation (like McLaren) scale. I had no involvement with the GT40 side, but the Ford approach certainly didn't help with that, at least in the early years. Ford insisted in a steel monocoque, which to some extent killed the first cars from a weight point of view, and they had a similar approach where bodywork was concerned. They specified a matched male & female mould pre-preg approach, the way that Chevrolet Corvette bodies were made. OK for production cars, but not for racing, that's a very expensive way of doing it, long lead times, and little flexibility. I saw an early GT40 nose section, very strong, but also very heavy, it would have supported the weight of an elephant. The only thing I take issue with in that magazine article is describing McLaren bodywork as "paper thin". I was at Specialised Mouldings at the time, and McLaren bodies were standard thickness, apart from a little non-standard reinforcement of flat areas with carbon fibre tows, their body specs were exactly the same as everyone else's.

 

Their eventual success with sports cars and Indy shows that Ford probably could have done it if they'd really wanted to, but that would have meant finding a team capable of taking on McLaren.

[rl1856]

Can it also be argued that the sb Chevy had a longer history with Hot Rodders and Tuners compared to Ford engines of similar size ?    Moving forward, many of the locally built sports cars of the late 50's into the 60's were Chevy powered, and there was a substantial support base already in place as displacements started to grow c1967-68/.  Ford threw money and resources into their efforts, but with the exception of Shelby American, and Ford's own GT40 program, was there any real success achieved by others even prior to the CAN-AM series ?   OTOH, one could purchase a chassis, then purchase a top spec motor from TRACO and go racing.  Chaparral, McLaren, Penske, Surtees/Lola all used the separate chassis/tuned Chevy motor combination to achieve great success.   While Ford was.......Ford....and a victim of their own hubris ?     

[Bob Riebe]

The small block Ford NEVER had good cylinder heads till the canted-valve Boss heads showed up, they probably tagged along with Bunkie Knutson.

Only Gurney's head were a true challenge to Chevy , or any other small block for that matter.

 

As an oddity many years later, Chevy had to develop its own canted valve heads in NASCAR to keep up with what Ford had for long, long time, even though Chevy had that style of head on its big block, which Ford learned from.

Chevy never had the common sense to put it on the small block.

Edited by Bob Riebe, 26 August 2020 - 18:40.

[Duc-Man]

The small block Ford NEVER had good cylinder heads till the canted-valve Boss heads showed up, they probably tagged along with Bunkie Knutson.

Only Gurney's head were a true challenge to Chevy , or any other small block for that matter.

 

As an oddity many years later, Chevy had to develop its own canted valve heads in NASCAR to keep up with what Ford had for long, long time, even though Chevy had that style of head on its big block, which Ford learned from, it never had the common sense to put it on the small block.

I'm working for the ex GM daughter Opel since '94 and must say that common sense was not really a strength of GM. PSA taking over in '17 didn't change much...

[Duc-Man]

 

 

Sidney Trever Horman posted these two photos of his dad Sid Horman in his Lola T165 on facebook.

 

He has no idea about the history/chassisnumber/whereabout of the car. Can somebody here help?

[sabrejet]

Just as important, what is/was car #47.

[LittleChris]

47 looks like something that's been diverted from the Goodwood soapbox races !!

[kayemod]

47 looks like something that's been diverted from the Goodwood soapbox races !!

 

Perhaps that car provided the inspiration for the first CanAm Shadow, or maybe the box it came in.

[Duc-Man]

There are a couple wild guesses in that FB post about #47. Looking at the size of the front wheels I guess it is a Go--Cart with a plywood body around it.

 

Maybe it's the never seen before prototype of the Chaparral 2J.

[Henk Vasmel]

Source: John Starkey's Lola, the Sports-Prototype & CanAm Cars

SL163/15: Sold to Carl Haas (69) After two CDN races rebuilt around possibly SL160/16?

Then to Peter Gregg (70). Accident in Mosport. Back to Lola for rebuild and delivered back as SL165/25.

That car: Sold to Sid Horman. 4 more owners. Novi museum since 2008.

Original tub /15 repaired and back to Haas. Later sold on as spare for /16 to Durant, but this is not important here. Later history gets very confused.

 

No appearances for Horman listed

[Lee Nicolle]

The small block Ford NEVER had good cylinder heads till the canted-valve Boss heads showed up, they probably tagged along with Bunkie Knutson.

Only Gurney's head were a true challenge to Chevy , or any other small block for that matter.

 

As an oddity many years later, Chevy had to develop its own canted valve heads in NASCAR to keep up with what Ford had for long, long time, even though Chevy had that style of head on its big block, which Ford learned from.

Chevy never had the common sense to put it on the small block.

The Ford Windsor came in 2 size blocks. short deck for up top 302 and tall deck 351 Windsor. 

Yes the heads were somewhat lacking but even then aftermarket heads were available.

The canted valve Cleveland, M, Boss 302 engine head in 4V form was far from ideal. In reality always too big in the ports. The 2V version is what all aftermarket heads are based on. And even then far bigger ports than even Chev race heads

Though the Chev heads of the late 60s and early 70s too were far from ideal. The advantage of the Chev was its 5 bolts per cylinder head clamping as well as the best oiling in the business.

In 5 litre form all Ford Chev, Mopar engines would produce similar numbers.

In 6 litre form also. And was anyone stroking small blocks that far then?  You simply used the big blocks. And iron engine to iron engine the FE was lighter and made similar power. The Chev BB had canted valve heads.

The 427 FE base engine won Lemans though the BB Chev won a lot more Canam races. Even before the alloy big block. It was cheaper to race. And probably a more reliable base as well.

The hemi and 440 Chrysler engines too were on par with BB Chevs and Fords

[Bob Riebe]

The Ford short deck small block, starting with the 302 Tunnel Port were designed with  9,000 rpm redline.

The Boss just used the Tunnel Port blocks.

 

Sam Posey remarked, so many year ago, that the Traco Chevies had a 8000 rpm redline  but he said he had, had, run it to 8,200 to keep up with the Fords.

The first Boss Fords , twin Dominator four-barrels were developing 480 HP,  the chevies were at least 20 hp short.

Even the AMC 1969 engines had more HP than the Chevies but they were not allowed to use stud-girdles and had to back off the engines as that was more than the two-bold mains could handle.

I regret , now, getting rid of my Competition Sport and AutoWeek back then as they had quite detailed gear-head information.

 

The Chevy shortcomings were blatant from 1970 on when they were mostly also rans.

From 1971 Chevy never won another race under the 5 liter rules, while AMC, Ford and Milt Minter in a Pontiac, were the front runners the last year 1972..

 

The only Can-Am Chevy to win with an iron  big block was by Penske in 1968.

 

Addendum:

Until Chevy released the alloy block to every one, Penske was said to have submitted his engine to acid dipping which made them lighter to a small degree.

Edited by Bob Riebe, 19 September 2020 - 16:42.

[Duc-Man]

Source: John Starkey's Lola, the Sports-Prototype & CanAm Cars

SL163/15: Sold to Carl Haas (69) After two CDN races rebuilt around possibly SL160/16?

Then to Peter Gregg (70). Accident in Mosport. Back to Lola for rebuild and delivered back as SL165/25.

That car: Sold to Sid Horman. 4 more owners. Novi museum since 2008.

Original tub /15 repaired and back to Haas. Later sold on as spare for /16 to Durant, but this is not important here. Later history gets very confused.

 

No appearances for Horman listed

So I assume that it is SL165/25 on those photos.

[Henk Vasmel]

So I assume that it is SL165/25 on those photos.

It is the car, living under that name, then, as well as now. The number doesn't really fit in the Lola series because by the time no 25 came around, they had switched over to HU numbers, So we don't really know what (replacement) chassis it really was. Yet everyone knew it and referred to it as SL165/25, so that is what you should look for.

 

Looking for the Novi museum on the internet, I found that it was the motorsports Hall of Fame. and that it has relocated to Daytona in 2016. Maybe try to find them and try to contact them for more information.

[Lee Nicolle]

The Ford short deck small block, starting with the 302 Tunnel Port were designed with  9,000 rpm redline.

The Boss just used the Tunnel Port blocks.

 

Sam Posey remarked, so many year ago, that the Traco Chevies had a 8000 rpm redline  but he said he had, had, run it to 8,200 to keep up with the Fords.

The first Boss Fords , twin Dominator four-barrels were developing 480 HP,  the chevies were at least 20 hp short.

Even the AMC 1969 engines had more HP than the Chevies but they were not allowed to use stud-girdles and had to back off the engines as that was more than the two-bold mains could handle.

I regret , now, getting rid of my Competition Sport and AutoWeek back then as they had quite detailed gear-head information.

 

The Chevy shortcomings were blatant from 1970 on when they were mostly also rans.

From 1971 Chevy never won another race under the 5 liter rules, while AMC, Ford and Milt Minter in a Pontiac, were the front runners the last year 1972..

 

The only Can-Am Chevy to win with an iron  big block was by Penske in 1968.

 

Addendum:

Until Chevy released the alloy block to every one, Penske was said to have submitted his engine to acid dipping which made them lighter to a small degree.

Acid dipping panels was a cheat. But I doubt they ever did engines. A milling program removed a good deal of surplus iron Both inside and outside. I have seen both small blocks and big blocks treated so. Though not to the degree some 360 Sprintcar engines are these days.

Canam was initially mostly ex 5000s, so mostly 5 litre Chevs.

Transam had AMCs, Pontiacs, Fords, both tunnell port and Boss 302s. Plus ofcourse Z28 Camaros. All 5 litre

[Bob Riebe]

Acid dipping panels was a cheat. But I doubt they ever did engines.

A milling program removed a good deal of surplus iron Both inside and outside.

Canam was initially mostly ex 5000s, so mostly 5 litre Chevs.

 

I am going by an old memory and probably read it in Donohue's Unfair Advantage, but it could have been in another article forty years ago; Penske did stuff no one else did..

The early advantage, besides cyiinder heads, Chevy had was the Mouse small block could be enlarged to displacement the small block ford could not.

347 inches is the safe limit for the original small block Ford . 

Ford did win some pre-USRRC and Can-Am Group 7 races, with non-Weslake heads,

I am sure those heads were unobtainium heads just as Chaparral had unobtainium engines from Chevy.

At that time though, small , small-blocks were the norm but 1965 was the end of that as first 333, then 366 Chevys became the norm.

The Can-Am that ran 305 small blocks was the bastard series that came after they killed the original.

 

Pontiac also had Tunnel-Port engines, the SCCA had problems with those, especially  the short-deck blocks that suddenly appeared.

Do not know if Minter had a milled block in 1972,, but I know the gents that ran Pontiacs, and other makes,  in the short lived NASCAR pony series , 1968-1971 , did use components that SCCA scrutineers said no to, which was why Jim Pascal's  Javelin,  was winning already in 1969, plus gents in that series were successful with the 302 Tunnel Port Fords in 1968.

Edited by Bob Riebe, 20 September 2020 - 04:56.

[Dipster]

I am going by an old memory and probably read it in Donohue's Unfair Advantage, but it could have been in another article forty years ago; Penske did stuff no one else did..

.

I too do seem to recall reading about dipped blocks (as well as bodies) in Donohue´s book. But acid-dipping/weight reduction is not mentioned in the index and a quick thumb-through just now failed to find it. But I recall he did talk of the problems of protecting the areas that they did not want the acid to attack and how they overcame that problem. 

 

Unless I am having a senior moment.......

[Duc-Man]

It is the car, living under that name, then, as well as now. The number doesn't really fit in the Lola series because by the time no 25 came around, they had switched over to HU numbers, So we don't really know what (replacement) chassis it really was. Yet everyone knew it and referred to it as SL165/25, so that is what you should look for.

 

Looking for the Novi museum on the internet, I found that it was the motorsports Hall of Fame. and that it has relocated to Daytona in 2016. Maybe try to find them and try to contact them for more information.

Thanks for the informations, I'll pass it on.

[Bikr7549]

I too do seem to recall reading about dipped blocks (as well as bodies) in Donohue´s book. But acid-dipping/weight reduction is not mentioned in the index and a quick thumb-through just now failed to find it. But I recall he did talk of the problems of protecting the areas that they did not want the acid to attack and how they overcame that problem. 

 

Unless I am having a senior moment....

 

Found it! After a few enjoyable hours looking thru one of my all time favorite books I found the engine block acid dipping info, it was in the last place I would have thought.  Was certain it was in the Camaro chapter, then maybe the Javelin, or Matador or the AMC engined F5000 car. But it is in the McLaren M6-B chapter, page 130. Unfortunately no data was taken on the weight of the 427 CI cast blocks (10) that were dipped for varying amounts of time as they wanted to know the weight after machining was done. Masking was a challenge so they avoided it by doing it to unmachined blocks. I would guess there is a fair variance in the as cast block weight. In any event the dipped blocks were then sent to the GM engine machining facility painted in an odd color for tracking, but were then lost in the system due to a shift change, never to be found.

 

PS edit, FYI this was done by Penske in 1968. 

Edited by Bikr7549, 21 September 2020 - 19:07.

[jj2728]

Does anyone happen to know why Porsche took a one year hiatus in 1970? Was it that they were concentrating all of their efforts on winning Le Mans? Suppose I could look it up, but i'm feeling lazy today......

[Lee Nicolle]

Found it! After a few enjoyable hours looking thru one of my all time favorite books I found the engine block acid dipping info, it was in the last place I would have thought.  Was certain it was in the Camaro chapter, then maybe the Javelin, or Matador or the AMC engined F5000 car. But it is in the McLaren M6-B chapter, page 130. Unfortunately no data was taken on the weight of the 427 CI cast blocks (10) that were dipped for varying amounts of time as they wanted to know the weight after machining was done. Masking was a challenge so they avoided it by doing it to unmachined blocks. I would guess there is a fair variance in the as cast block weight. In any event the dipped blocks were then sent to the GM engine machining facility painted in an odd color for tracking, but were then lost in the system due to a shift change, never to be found.

 

PS edit, FYI this was done by Penske in 1968. 

Acid dipping simply makes no sense. On car panels maybe but not a cast engine. It will corrode out cylinder walls and oil galleries. Where you do not need any weight/ strength to be lost. 

A casting as a block is can be milled to remove excess weight. Inside and out. And only where it is safe to do so. Acid is indiscriminate. And I am sure this is simply a fallacy. Anyone with a basic milling machine can mount the block and machine it. It will take many hours

A modern CNC machine once programmed can do it quickly.

As for block weight/ strength they vary considerably. I have compared Chevs, an early 350 block is up to 25lbs heavier than one from 10 years later. Ford Clevelands surprisingly around the same. The US blocks are heavier than the latter Aussie ones.

An Aussie 318 LA is heavier than the Aussie 360. These are the only engines I have ever weighed.

Different engines and applications too are different. An engine to be mounted on an engine plate can have all the sides milled removing all the factory mounting tabs. For a car using OEM side mounts that is material you cannot lose though the [for a Chev]  the lugs used at the front are not required and can be removed. 

I once removed around 10lbs with an angle grinder and a hacksaw. And a drill. But in reality never worth the effort. 

I have seen so called 'pro built' cars that have the engine lightened but many other things are simply way too heavy. eg bolts that are an inch too long everywhere. 20 of those adds up to most of the engine weight removed.

The current 'fad' in too many categories of having 2" of wheel stud hanging out the face of the wheel. Dumb and fairly heavy. I recently saw some lightweight, read strength compromised   drag race axles with 4" long wheel studs!! Drrr.

In speedway in particular it may make some sense as you will space a wheel in or out depending on track conditions

[Bob Riebe]

Found it! After a few enjoyable hours looking thru one of my all time favorite books I found the engine block acid dipping info, it was in the last place I would have thought.  Was certain it was in the Camaro chapter, then maybe the Javelin, or Matador or the AMC engined F5000 car. But it is in the McLaren M6-B chapter, page 130. Unfortunately no data was taken on the weight of the 427 CI cast blocks (10) that were dipped for varying amounts of time as they wanted to know the weight after machining was done. Masking was a challenge so they avoided it by doing it to unmachined blocks. I would guess there is a fair variance in the as cast block weight. In any event the dipped blocks were then sent to the GM engine machining facility painted in an odd color for tracking, but were then lost in the system due to a shift change, never to be found.

 

PS edit, FYI this was done by Penske in 1968. 

Thank you , very much.

[Bikr7549]

Acid dipping simply makes no sense. On car panels maybe but not a cast engine. It will corrode out cylinder walls and oil galleries. Where you do not need any weight/ strength to be lost. 

A casting as a block is can be milled to remove excess weight. Inside and out. And only where it is safe to do so. Acid is indiscriminate. And I am sure this is simply a fallacy. Anyone with a basic milling machine can mount the block and machine it. It will take many hours

A modern CNC machine once programmed can do it quickly.

 

Yes, all true, but remember this was done in 1968. There was no CNC (as we now see it) and independent shops that could machine a rough casting were probably few and far between. Penske was looking for an advantage and since they could not yet get the aluminum blocks like Team McLaren could, they did what they could to try and reduce weight. The 10 blocks were dipped varying amounts of time with the immediate goal to see what would survive the machining-not running full power and not installed in a race car environment. Even if they had gotten the blocks back there was still a fair amount of work to do.

 

One of the things that I really enjoy about the Unfair Advantage book is that Mark Donohue freely admits in a number of places (maybe not this one specifically) how naïve he was about a lot of things. You don't find that honesty much anywhere, least of all in this often ego driven sport. I had the good fortune of having had a mentor very similar in many ways to Mark, in high school. He is gone now, but I still use those traits that he taught every day. Not too many things we learn in high school that are still applicable later in life.

Edited by Bikr7549, 22 September 2020 - 02:09.

[Duc-Man]

I asked Sid Horman jr about the #47 "car". This is what he wrote back:

 

"That car was a home made car that was produced here in Salt Lake City UT. There were two of them made. They both used motorcycle engines. One was a 3 cylinder (I think it was a Kawasaki 500cc) and the other one had a 2 cylinder 2 stroke motor. "

 

"The latest that I have found out is that that car was built by a guy by the name of Allen Parkin. He’s actually a friend of my father. He has not talk to him in approximately five years. He has recently tried to call him to ask about the car. When we get a hold of him and find any information out I will let you know."