22 replies to this topic

[molive]

According to a Brazilian newspaper, the car which took Senna to his first podium at Monaco is going to be given away to callers of a 1-300 draw.



The TG184-Hart is owned by an Argentine (a millionaire callled Paco Mallorca), and his agent is currently negotiating with two brazilian networks, to air a special show about Senna on May 1st, and the car will be given to a lucky caller.

Imagine owning that little jewel? these guys will probably make a fortune, but, heck, count me in!

[POLAR]

And of course theres a bigger chance that someone completly ignorant gets it. Hope Molive wins it.

Polar

[SeanValen]

Jesus, I would think it would be on sale for the proceeds to go to the Senna foundation, someone is going to be very lucky having that car, I just hope whoever it is preserves it or sells it to someone else who can. Molive would be a good owner, 100% Brazilian patriotism legend.

[molive]

Thanks guys!

Btw, the car has been valued at about US$ 1 million, so I dont think I'd be able to hold on to it. : Obviously, there will be a big offer on the table to whoever gets it.

Seriously, I'd also think that instead of a making draw they could just open a bidding on it, with part of the $ going to Senna Foundation.

[ckkl]

If it was an auction, they may or may not raise more money. At least this way the regular fans can feel they have a chance to be a part of the legend (to use a cliche hehe)

[Todd]

Is that the one that was in the auction results listings of the UK classic car magazines last year? One of Senna's Tolemans went for about $50K. I remember thinking that it was amazingly little at the time. I suppose the engines are too high maintenance for vintage racing, and there aren't many Senna fans with deep pockets. Might as well use it for a high profile promotion.

[molive]

About that Monaco race, its funny that, had J. M. Balestre decided to let the race continue, Prost would have probably become WDC (Prost won, but they awarded only half of the points for the shortened race, when Lauda was already out, and Prost ended up losing the title to Lauda by a mere half point).

So ironic...

[CONOSUR]

Exactly... Prost would've won the title over Lauda by 1 point vs losing the title to him by 1/2 point. The final tally would've been 50 wins with 5 titles... and all just to keep Senna from taking his first win in the rain and embarrassing the Frenchman in France, er....Monaco.

[molive]

Originally posted by CONOSUR
Exactly... Prost would've won the title over Lauda by 1 point vs losing the title to him by 1/2 point. The final tally would've been 50 wins with 5 titles... and all just to keep Senna from taking his first win in the rain and embarrassing the Frenchman in France, er....Monaco.

One thing that needs to be mentioned, though, is that Senna told people afterwards that, even though the timing was not perfect, the decision to stop the race was the right one, because it was obviously quite dangerous conditions.

[Bart]

But if they had let the race continue for another 8 or so laps, full points would have been awarded. Even if Senna had overtaken Prost, Prost would have got 6 instead of 4.5, and so would have won the WDC, instead of losing by half a point to Lauda. Oh, the irony!!

[Muzza]

Or, as I prefer to consider, Bellof would have passed them both...

(ok, the Tyrrell Team was later eliminated from the championship, but was is reality to perception, anyway?)

[RJL]

Originally posted by molive
About that Monaco race, its funny that, had J. M. Balestre decided to let the race continue, Prost would have probably become WDC (Prost won, but they awarded only half of the points for the shortened race, when Lauda was already out, and Prost ended up losing the title to Lauda by a mere half point).

So ironic...

If memory serves, it was Jackie Ikx (clerk of the course) who made the call to stop that race.

[11]

Originally posted by molive
According to a Brazilian newspaper, the car which took Senna to his first podium at Monaco is going to be given away to callers of a 1-300 draw.



The TG184-Hart is owned by an Argentine (a millionaire callled Paco Mallorca), and his agent is currently negotiating with two brazilian networks, to air a special show about Senna on May 1st, and the car will be given to a lucky caller.

Imagine owning that little jewel? these guys will probably make a fortune, but, heck, count me in!

That is great but I have some questions about the contests. When is the contest? What is the phone number? Is it open to non Brazil residents? Do you just get the car or do you have to pay some sort of fee or taxes to claim it? Detail's, detail's!

[ruther]

Originally posted by molive

.

Imagine owning that little jewel? these guys will probably make a fortune, but, heck, count me in!

Man, what a JEWEL!

[Andrew Kitson]

Sorry to put a downer on this discussion but I do not believe this is the Toleman in which Senna finished second in Monaco.

Chassis Toleman TG 184-'02' Hart turbo is the car he had that incredible race in, also finishing 3rd at Brands.
Senna was suspended by Alex Hawkridge of Toleman for the Italian GP because of his talks with Lotus for the '85 season, therefore Stefan Johansson was called in to replace him ( from Tyrrell) and finished 4th in the same car. Stefan kept '02' for the remainder of the season.

When Senna came back for the European & Portugese GPs, he used chassis 05 - including a fine 3rd place at Estoril.

Chassis 02 is still owned by Roger Cowman and the Shottle syndicate and has been in Europe since 1984, but is up for sale. It was acquired from Stefan Johansson's father. Stefan was given the car at the end of the season as the team could not pay him. The syndicate have all the relevant documentation to prove this.

Chassis 05 was acquired by the Auto Toy Store in the USA. It is more than likely that this car is the one offered in this promotion.

[panzani]

And to put it downer a little bit more, it is just an idea from the former-manager of a Brazilian TV star who happens to be a former-girlfriend o Senna...
It was just a small note on the TV pages of a newspaper, not on the sports pages, and it was not confirmed elsewhere.
It seems to be just a plan by now, the manager is looking for sponsors and a TV channel to host the promotion.
Too many ifs, IMO. Perhaps they are just "testing-the-market" to see if it is a profitable operation.
If something more reliable arrives in the future I'll post here.

[Peter Morley]

There is clearly some confusion over the histories of these Tolemans, which is surprising because they are very clear and well known.

Senna crossed the line 1st at Monaco, and was rewarded with 2nd place, in TG184-02.
He then raced that car several more times, including 3rd place in the British GP.

Later on Senna drove TG184-05, and came 3rd in Austria.
Stefan Johannsson taking over TG184-02 for the end of the season.

At the end of the year Johansson bought TG184-02, and it was bought from him by Roger Cowman's Shottle syndicate some years later.

The Auto Toy Store bought TG184-05, which they sold to South America (Paco Mallorca presumably).
They also bought TG183B-05 which Senna had driven prior to the TG184 being finished.

The car that was auctioned in Britain was a show car made up from bits and pieces, it has no specific identity and certainly no Monaco history (except for the vague possibility that some of the components might have been used there).

When Auto Toy Store had TG184-05 it was not running, and presumably still isn't.

TG184-02 is running, ready to be raced and or demoed.
It is for sale, but for considerably less than a million dollars.
There is no doubt whatsoever that it is the car that Senna drove so memorably at Monaco.

The car that is in South America is an ex-Senna Toleman, but it is not the car that everyone remembers.

[panzani]

Just to complete the excellent Peter Morley's prior post, these are the TG 184 chassis driven by Senna, Cecotto, Johansson and Martini in 1984 [just five were built, AFAIK]:

France:	  02 - Senna	  03 - Cecotto 

Monaco:	  02 - Senna	  03 - Cecotto

Canada:	  02 - Senna	  03 - Cecotto 

Detroit:	 01 - Senna	  03 - Cecotto

Dallas:	  02 - Senna	  03 - Cecotto 

Britain:	 02 - Senna	  04 - Cecotto

Germany:	 05 - Senna 

Austria:	 05 - Senna 

Netherlands: 05 - Senna 

Italy:	   02 - Johansson  03 - Martini 

Europe:	  05 - Senna	  03 - Johansson 

Portugal:	05 - Senna	  02 - Johansson

I've e-mailed the journalist who wrote the afore mentioned note and he kindly answered me he will check his sources asking for the chassis number in question.

[Fransz]

Originally posted by CONOSUR
Exactly... Prost would've won the title over Lauda by 1 point vs losing the title to him by 1/2 point. The final tally would've been 50 wins with 5 titles... and all just to keep Senna from taking his first win in the rain and embarrassing the Frenchman in France, er....Monaco.

The words poetic justice come to mind.

[Haddock]

Muzza Or, as I prefer to consider, Bellof would have passed them both...

Or equally likely, they would both have gone past Prost and then collided with each other fighting over the lead, handing victory back to Prost.

I don't know about you, but I can't see Senna letting Bellof by easily, and I can't see that Bellof wouldn't have had a go.

[Muzza]

I fully understand your point Haddock... It makes me wonder how fantastic motorsport would have been if what happened in Spa on September 1st 1985 had a just slightly different outcome.

[Arjan de Roos]

Yes, it is always Prost-Senna when we talk about Monaco84. O, how I cheered for Bellof in his bath tub chasing those two. HE made that race. Of course he would have past them bot (I think...).

A propos, 'if' is indeed a word we use so often. I always thought Cecotto did pretty good as team mate to Senna in the Toleman. He would have done a great job IF his F1 career had not ended in Brands. How about that?

[David Hyland]

Originally posted by Bart
But if they had let the race continue for another 8 or so laps, full points would have been awarded. Even if Senna had overtaken Prost, Prost would have got 6 instead of 4.5, and so would have won the WDC, instead of losing by half a point to Lauda. Oh, the irony!!

Maybe ... but who knows what could have happened in those 8 laps? Prost's car could have quit, or he could have tangled with a backmarker, or just crashed of his own accord and he would have scored no points at all. And even if he did end up scoring 6 points rather than 4.5, if Lauda had needed to win in Portugal to clinch the title, rather than just finish 2nd, then who's to say he wouldn't have? It's probably just as well we can't change history - there are just too many alternatives to choose from!