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#1 arcsine

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Posted 14 February 2004 - 09:39

René Arnoux apparently had a reputation for bad track manners when being lapped (eg when he held up Prost in the 1989 Monaco GP). How much of a problem was this with René - how often did he ignore, or seem to ignore, blue flags?

Which other drivers (Formula 1 and other motorsport) are noteworthy for their regular ignorance of blue flags and for giving drivers trying to lap them a headache?

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#2 bigears

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Posted 14 February 2004 - 17:26

I can think of Olivier Grouillard after he held up Nigel Mansell during one race in the late 1980s.

Also I recall someone was labelled as the "Moving Chicane" after some drivers found it difficult to lap him and to get around his car.

#3 Teapot

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Posted 14 February 2004 - 18:16

Phoenix 1989: Andrea DeCesaris, lapped, rammed his team mate at Dallara, Alex Caffi, while the latter was in second position.

Sorry for his many fans...but I think Andrea wasn't a shining example of kind back-grid manners...though I'm also sure that such episodes occurs to him rather for untamed daring than as results of premeditated acts.

#4 Arjan de Roos

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Posted 16 February 2004 - 09:32

Gerhard Berger experienced the Arnoux effect during his first Ferrari years. Was there a disliking by Rene for Gerhard. Some people heard that Rene claimed that this #28 was his car..

#5 jph

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Posted 16 February 2004 - 10:16

I'll always remember James Hunt's remark when someone (I forget who) was having difficulty lapping Manfred Winkelhock on one occasion - "of course, Winkelhock runs in blinkers".

#6 FredF1

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Posted 16 February 2004 - 11:29

I recall drivers complaining Michele Alboreto a few times as well. 1994 in particular - Damon Hill was balked quite badly by Alboreto on a number of ocasions.

#7 ian senior

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Posted 16 February 2004 - 11:49

Mike Beuttler? I think he attracted the nickname "blocker" for this very reason.

#8 Mohican

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Posted 16 February 2004 - 12:24

How about rather talking about frontrunner trackmanners ?

Senna and Scumacher come to mind.

#9 Mischa Bijenhof

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Posted 17 February 2004 - 10:46

Pierluigi Martini, although in my opinion genuinely a fair racer, was the first ever driver to get a 10 second stop and go penalty when he blocked Stefano Modena, who was runing second, in the 1991 Monaco Grand Prix.

#10 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 17 February 2004 - 17:36

Originally posted by Mohican
How about rather talking about frontrunner trackmanners ?

Senna and Scumacher come to mind.



Because its been done to death and turns into a kindergarten esque mud fight.

#11 ensign14

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Posted 17 February 2004 - 18:17

Seem to remember Hunt describing Jonathan Palmer as a mobile chicane...and Philippe Alliot could be a problem at times, remember him taking Brundle out at Detroit in 1985 when being lapped?

Arnoux was the subject of this famous live dialogue that for some reason got cut out of the BBC2 repeat (from Monaco, circa 1988) :


Murray: And Arnoux holding up Prost and a train of cars...Rene has said that the reason why he is having problems this season is because he is driving a normally aspirated car, and he cannot get used to the lack of turbo power.

Hunt: Well, of course that's total bollocks.


:lol:


And Farina was of course strongly implicated in the deaths of 2 drivers when lapping them (Lehoux and Hartmann).

#12 BRG

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Posted 17 February 2004 - 18:30

Originally posted by ensign14
Seem to remember Hunt describing Jonathan Palmer as a mobile chicane...

Dr Palmer did not get the full credit for all his mobile chicanery. Most of the time, Murray and James used to blame his team-mate Martini, even though it was clearly dear old Jonathan who was doing the blocking. Better to blame an Eyetie than a fellow-Brit, eh, James? :rolleyes:

Then, when he turned his hand to commentating, he had the effrontery to criticise others for doing the same. (Although maybe the 'poacher turned gamekeeper' principle applies!)

#13 Coogar

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Posted 17 February 2004 - 22:15

Is there anybody out there who has been lapped ? Perhaps they might like to explain the difficulties involved......
I, as a relatively inexperienced (but often slow) club racer have sometimews found it tricky to move out of the way AND remain on the black stuff. Perhaps it happens to the big boys too.......?

#14 mikedeering

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Posted 18 February 2004 - 12:10

Grouillard had a bad reputation, particular at Tyrrell. Probably not helped by Ken Tyrrell allegedly telling him to not bother checking his mirrors and it being the leader's responsibility to find a way past backmakers.

Comas had a run-in with Nige at Hockenheim in 1991. Poor Erik was reduced to tears by the bully Mansell!

de Cesaris irked Rosberg at Dijon 1982.

Irvine and Senna - Suzuka 1993.

Sometimes it's not always the backmakers fault -

Salazar and Piquet, Hockenheim 1982
Schlesser and Senna, Monza 1988
Nakajima and Senna, Interlagos 1990

I think Arnoux was probably one of the worst, presumably because he was bitter at being relegated to backmaker status when he used to be a frontrunner?

#15 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 18 February 2004 - 16:09

Originally posted by Coogar
Is there anybody out there who has been lapped ? Perhaps they might like to explain the difficulties involved......
I, as a relatively inexperienced (but often slow) club racer have sometimews found it tricky to move out of the way AND remain on the black stuff. Perhaps it happens to the big boys too.......?


Once. A regional formula ford type race at Putnam Park in Indiana. I was the last guy in a 1-2-3 pack and I was *just* being held up by the two guys in front of me. I went wide in the second turn to try to cut under them on the exit, but forgot about my downchange revs and locked the rears and promptly spun and the field went by. In my hesitation to get back up to the pack I spun a few more times (those full throttle 360's through a fast corner where you never leave the road) and got black flagged for a drive through to try to calm me down. I came out just ahead of the leading pack (now 4 cars) while coming back up to speed. There's a hairpin about half way around the lap so exiting it I held a tight line to the inside and let the 4 of them go through (on the same lap) and tucked in behind them. Before we got back to the start/finish line there was an accident and the SC had been deployed.

If I had waited two or three more corners to let them by, or waited until they actually caught me, id probably gotten back onto the tail of the lap with about 10 laps to go to try to make up as many positions as possible. In the future I dont think ill starting holding them up for as long as I can, but im not sure im going to go out of my way to help out either.

#16 gdecarli

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Posted 18 February 2004 - 17:59

Originally posted by Mischa Bijenhof
Pierluigi Martini, although in my opinion genuinely a fair racer, was the first ever driver to get a 10 second stop and go penalty when he blocked Stefano Modena, who was runing second, in the 1991 Monaco Grand Prix.

IIRC, Martini was fighting with Nakajima, Modena's teammate. He didn't understand that Modena lapped Nakajima and he thought that Tyrrell behind him was still Nakajima. He blocked Modena untile he was told this misunderstandiong.
Is it true or my memory has gone? :)

Ciao,
Guido

#17 MCS

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Posted 18 February 2004 - 21:07

Originally posted by ian senior
Mike Beuttler? I think he attracted the nickname "blocker" for this very reason.


Are you quite sure about this?

Beuttler was no slouch - ask anybody who raced against him in F3 and F2...


MCS

#18 WGD706

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Posted 18 February 2004 - 21:41

I'm surprised that the classic duel between Coulthard and Bernoldi at Monaco in 2001 hasn't come up.........Coulthard had a heavy load of fuel (he went 65 of the 78 laps) and he found himself stuck behind Enrique Bernoldi's Arrows, trolling along with enough fuel to get him to lap 43. The weight difference of the two cars was probably about 50kg and that meant a second and a half or two seconds per lap. This being Monaco that was that. David had no chance and spent the afternoon stuck behind Bernoldi. By the time that the Arrows went into the pits David was a lap behind the leaders.
Granted, Bernoldi wasn't a backmarker............

#19 panzani

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Posted 18 February 2004 - 22:07

I am a little surprised no one talked about the sponsors in this thread...
Yes, they are in bold because they are always waiting for things like that to come...
They get more TV coverage from one lap as "bad-behaviour-backmarkers" than they get in the entire season. I don't know if this can be proved, maybe it's just me, but I think they are very happy by the time it happens. Perhaps there's a bonus to these guys if they can not realise the meaning of blue flags even though they own a superlicense...

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#20 scheivlak

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Posted 19 February 2004 - 00:20

Originally posted by WGD706
Granted, Bernoldi wasn't a backmarker............

And David wasn't lapping him - it was a fight for position.

#21 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 19 February 2004 - 05:07

And David is well....just David. As inspired as he can be on his day, he can also make you bury your face in your hands. Monaco 2001 was an example of the latter, Monaco 2002 was an example of the former.

#22 BRG

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Posted 19 February 2004 - 12:04

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Monaco 2001 was an example of the latter

Now if this had happened to anyone else, it would have been a five minute wonder and then been forgotten, But because it was Coulthard, it goes into the canon of 'urban mythology' that follows him everywhere. Had it been someone else, they would have moaned about Bernoldi, kicked the cat and then moved on. Which is what David did - but unfortunately all those who delight in tearing into him at every turn haven't moved on. Although of course, Ron Dennis's immoderate behaviour didn't help. The one time that Ron actually publicly supports his most loyal employee and he chose the wrong occasion!

In fact, Coulthard drove with his head that day, and ended up netting a 5th place and a couple of points as well as taking fastest lap (not that this is worth anything more than kudos). Another, less intelligent driver would have ended up in the barriers and taking a long walk home for an early bath.

Of course Bernoldi had every right to defend his position. Coulthard knew that any attempt to overtake would at best fail and at worse would eliminate him. No-one can overtake at Monaco unless the guy in front co-operates. Can you name any other driver who could have passed an unco-operative Bernoldi? Remember Mansell monstering Senna for lap after lap with a car that was probably 4 or 5 seconds a lap faster at the time? He couldn't do it either.

All evidence for the fact that racing cars should have ceased to visit the Principlaity many decades ago.

#23 ian senior

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Posted 19 February 2004 - 12:39

Originally posted by MCS


Are you quite sure about this?

Beuttler was no slouch - ask anybody who raced against him in F3 and F2...


MCS


I don't want to be too disrespectful to Mike's memory - after all, he is no longer with us, and I understand that he was a very pleasant individual. But I think it's fair to say he was a bit out of his depth in F1 where he acquired his "blocker" reputation. He was around for a few years, in some decent machinery, and never looked as if he would progress beyond the back markers.

#24 Mallory Dan

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Posted 19 February 2004 - 14:29

Ian, are you sure. I've no axe to grind here at all, but wouldn't consider Beuttler's various Marches to be 'decent machinery'. IIRC he had a 701, then a 721G/731, none of which were any good were they ?? Plus remember he was a true privateer at the time, in the good old days pre- BE, when F1 allowed such.

#25 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 19 February 2004 - 15:31

Originally posted by BRG
Now if this had happened to anyone else, it would have been a five minute wonder and then been forgotten, But because it was Coulthard, it goes into the canon of 'urban mythology' that follows him everywhere. Had it been someone else, they would have moaned about Bernoldi, kicked the cat and then moved on. Which is what David did - but unfortunately all those who delight in tearing into him at every turn haven't moved on. Although of course, Ron Dennis's immoderate behaviour didn't help. The one time that Ron actually publicly supports his most loyal employee and he chose the wrong occasion!


DC didnt help it by referring to him as an idiot and continuing it into the press conferences at Canada. Nor did Mclaren and Mercedes handle it well giving Arrows and Bernoldi specifically a lot of grief.

#26 petefenelon

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Posted 19 February 2004 - 16:07

Originally posted by Mallory Dan
Ian, are you sure. I've no axe to grind here at all, but wouldn't consider Beuttler's various Marches to be 'decent machinery'. IIRC he had a 701, then a 721G/731, none of which were any good were they ?? Plus remember he was a true privateer at the time, in the good old days pre- BE, when F1 allowed such.


Ronnie Peterson did fairly well in a 721G (at least relative to the positively canine 721). as did James Hunt with a 731 - same car really - (although both had talent on their side, and James had Dr Postlethwaite's Patent Remedy.... namely the time and money to develop the car properly).

Now, admittedly the 712G was originally lashed up just to provide Beuttler with something to race...

#27 petefenelon

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Posted 19 February 2004 - 16:11

Originally posted by WGD706
I'm surprised that the classic duel between Coulthard and Bernoldi at Monaco in 2001 hasn't come up.........Coulthard had a heavy load of fuel (he went 65 of the 78 laps) and he found himself stuck behind Enrique Bernoldi's Arrows, trolling along with enough fuel to get him to lap 43. The weight difference of the two cars was probably about 50kg and that meant a second and a half or two seconds per lap. This being Monaco that was that. David had no chance and spent the afternoon stuck behind Bernoldi. By the time that the Arrows went into the pits David was a lap behind the leaders.
Granted, Bernoldi wasn't a backmarker............


I thought Bernoldi's driving in '01 was clean, canny and entirely legitimate. He didn't expose himself or Coulthard to any unnecessary risks, and he defended beautifully. Coulthard whingeing about it displayed a lack of class, in my humble opinion.

#28 ian senior

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Posted 19 February 2004 - 16:22

Originally posted by petefenelon


Ronnie Peterson did fairly well in a 721G (at least relative to the positively canine 721). as did James Hunt with a 731 - same car really - (although both had talent on their side, and James had Dr Postlethwaite's Patent Remedy.... namely the time and money to develop the car properly).

Now, admittedly the 712G was originally lashed up just to provide Beuttler with something to race...


Says it all, really. I'm not on a mission to destroy Mike B's reputation, but I honestly believe he wasn't so fantastic in F3 or F2 either. In 1-litre F3, he was just of of many drivers who got some good results in an incredibly competitive formula. One week you were winning races, the next you were in midfield. In F2, apart from winning one race right at the end of 1971 (and not against the strongest opposition) he did very little in the rest of the year. Guess he was just in the right place at the right time, and was financially well-connected. Fair play to the man, but I suspect others could have done better with the same equipment.

#29 petefenelon

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Posted 19 February 2004 - 16:39

Originally posted by ian senior


Says it all, really. I'm not on a mission to destroy Mike B's reputation, but I honestly believe he wasn't so fantastic in F3 or F2 either. In 1-litre F3, he was just of of many drivers who got some good results in an incredibly competitive formula. One week you were winning races, the next you were in midfield. In F2, apart from winning one race right at the end of 1971 (and not against the strongest opposition) he did very little in the rest of the year. Guess he was just in the right place at the right time, and was financially well-connected. Fair play to the man, but I suspect others could have done better with the same equipment.


I think you're probably right. Mind you anyone who claimed Niki Lauda was a potential World Champion on the strength of his early F1 March performances was probably smoking some of Master James' Herbal Woodbines.

One-litre screamer F3 seemed to have a hell of a lot of race winners and a lot of it was about hanging on in the leading group of slipstreamers; in 1.6 and two-litre F2 things were a bit less clear-cut although it was still possible to do well in races that didn't have all the big names/graded drivers in them... Many very good 2-litre F2 drivers never made the step up to F1 so we never got the chance to judge them properly at the top level - thinking of the likes of Jaussaud, Rad Dougall, Jacques Coulon, "Brilliant" Bob Wollek... I won't even go into F3000 because that's just a waiting-room for ChampCar these days ;P

It seems that over the past few decades, the only predictor of F1 talent has been F1 performance, I think - even 30-odd years ago it clearly bore little resemblance to the formulae below it and guys who'd been mediocre in F3/F2 could come into F1 and excel, and guys who'd totally destroyed the minor formulae flopped heavily in F1...

#30 man

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Posted 20 February 2004 - 16:14

Patrick Tambay lost the lead in Austria, 1983 due to J.P Jarier. The frenchman in the Ligier really had lost the plot by this stage of his career.

#31 gdecarli

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Posted 20 February 2004 - 17:15

And what about Michael Schumacher and Coulthard at Spa 1998?
I never understood what really happened: Coultahrd perfectly knew he was followed by Ferrari (I recall on Autosprint a pic taken at La Source half lap before the accident; they were nearly together). IIRC, Coulthard - very slow till that moment - became very quick exactly when he was reached by Schumacher.
IMHO, Coulthard was responsible of this accident even if Schumacher could have paid a little more attention.

Ciao,
Guido

#32 arcsine

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Posted 21 February 2004 - 09:15

Originally posted by gdecarli
IIRC, Martini was fighting with Nakajima, Modena's teammate. He didn't understand that Modena lapped Nakajima and he thought that Tyrrell behind him was still Nakajima. He blocked Modena untile he was told this misunderstandiong.
Is it true or my memory has gone? :)

According to Autocourse 1991 and other 1991 reviews Modena was held up lapping Emanuele Pirro (who had previously been racing Nakajima for position) - Pirro thought Modena was Nakajima. Pirro wasn't penalised and went on to finish 6th. Martini had held up the lot of them and he picked up the penalty.

#33 deeks6

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Posted 21 February 2004 - 20:27

Originally posted by gdecarli
And what about Michael Schumacher and Coulthard at Spa 1998?
I never understood what really happened: Coultahrd perfectly knew he was followed by Ferrari (I recall on Autosprint a pic taken at La Source half lap before the accident; they were nearly together). IIRC, Coulthard - very slow till that moment - became very quick exactly when he was reached by Schumacher.
IMHO, Coulthard was responsible of this accident even if Schumacher could have paid a little more attention.

Ciao,
Guido


IIRC, Coulthard was out of the race effectively and had slowed right down (presumably heading to the pits to retire). It was very wet and visibility was poor, but Coulthard moved to/stayed on the racing line and Schumacher hit him, costing him the race. DCs teammate Hakkinen won the race - it was very questionable indeed.

#34 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 21 February 2004 - 22:19

:confused:

Mika was out turn 1 lap 1. Hill went through to lead a Jordan 1-2 for their first ever win with Alesi in third with Sauber.

And often overlooked in the controversy was that Giancarlo had an even more spectacular accident running unsighted into the back of Shinji Nakano's Minardi.

#35 deeks6

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Posted 21 February 2004 - 22:41

Yes, keyboard engaged without brain then...

#36 gdecarli

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Posted 21 February 2004 - 23:30

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
And often overlooked in the controversy was that Giancarlo had an even more spectacular accident running unsighted into the back of Shinji Nakano's Minardi.

Fisichella accident was quite different. On old track configuration drivers who wanted to go to pit lane (like Fisichella) could break much later than people that wanted to run another lap (like Nakano). For this reason Nakano has for sure no responsibility about the crash. I think also Fisichella has no (or few)responsibility, because he could see only water.

As regards Coulhard and Schumacher, they were together at La Source., half lap before the crash. Blue flags were shown from Les Combes, some corners before Puhon and the crash. Coulthard said he moved to the extreme right side of the track, but in such a position he still was on best line, so Schumacher would have had to move left in order to overtake him.
Besides, Coulthard said he didn't accelerate after previous corner, so in few seconds speed difference was quite high: Coulthard 170 km/h, Schumacher 220 km/h.
It was not the best place for a lapping (surely worse than La Source, Kemmel straight and Les Combes) and Schumacher had no reason to aspect such a slow speed, as till that moment he was driving at standard speed all over the circuit.
For all this reason, I think that Coulthard had many responsibilities on this crash, while Schumacher nearly nothing.

I don't have such a position because I'm a Ferrari supporter; I have no problem to say when Schumacher makes mistakes (Jerez 1997, Spa 2000, Sepang 2002, Albert Park 2003, Interlagos 2003...), but I think not at Spa 1998.

Ciao,
Guido

#37 nrp

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Posted 23 February 2004 - 12:37

Originally posted by deeks6

DCs teammate Hakkinen won the race - it was very questionable indeed.


Um, no, Hakkinen was long gone by then. That race was Jordan's first win - a 1-2 for Damon Hill and Ralf Schumacher, with Jean Alesi third in a Sauber. I think Hakkinen retired after Johnny Herbert span at La Source on the restart.

Um ... think I've veered off topic there...

-- Neil