11 replies to this topic

[Bengt]

On this link http://8w.forix.com/etancelin.html there's a reference to Philippe Etancelin finishing in 3rd place in the Coppa Florio (17 July 1927) at St Briac or St Brienc in his Bugatti 35. Does anyone has some more info on this race? Since this version of the Coppa Florio obviously didn't take place in Italy, I also wonder if there's a connection with earlier races?

[Vitesse2]

That should be Saint Brieuc, Bengt. It's in Brittany.

The Coppa Florio was originally to be competed for over seven runnings, the overall winner being the manufacturer which won the most races of the seven. In fact, the first seven were all won in different cars - Panhard, Itala, Fiat, Isotta-Fraschini, Berliet, Nazzaro and Peugeot. Presumably they continued in the hope that someone would win a second time, but the eighth race, run concurrently with the Targa Florio, was won by Mercedes!

In 1925, they calculated that Peugeot and Itala were equal on placings over the years and it was decided that the cup would be awarded to whichever marque was in the lead at the end of the fourth lap: this turned out to be André Boillot's Peugeot.

This meant Peugeot had won the cup outright, but they put it up again in 1927 for a regularity race at Saint Brieuc, contested by a wide variety of sports and racing cars and won by Laly's Aries from Wagner's Peugeot and Etancelin's Bugatti.

There were plans for a 1928 edition too, once again in Sicily, but these failed to materialise.

[GIGLEUX]

Run on Saint-Brieuc circuit on 17/07/1927. 27 entries 22 materialized. 30 laps 402,204 km.

1100cc:
Salmson: Masse, Laval, Valette
BNC: Violette Morriss, Doré, Pousse
GM: de Brémond
d'Yrsan: Siran replaced by Mottet
Tracta: Grégoire, Mallet

1500cc:
Bugatti: "Sabipa" Imbert

2000cc:
Bugatti: Eyston, Lehoux, Etancelin
Christiane 8: Andrieux

3000cc:
Ariès: Laly
Talbot: Brunet

+3000cc:
Peugeot: Wagner, Rigal
Lorraine-Dietrich: Bloch

Start at 13h15 for the +3000 category and after at 1 minute gap for the others categories, the 1100cc starting at 13h19.

Classification by categories

1100cc
1 Massé 4.21.05 92,600 km/h
2 Grégoire 4.29.47
3 V.Morriss 4.39.05
4 Pousse 4.48.13
5 Mottet 1 lap behind
6 Maillet
7 Valette 2 laps behind

1500cc Sabipa 3.56.51.6 102,039 km/h best time of the day

2000cc

1 Etancelin 4.18.28 93,500 km/h
2 Eyston same time!
3 Imbert 4.18.32
4 Lehoux 4.18.48
5 Andrieux 1 lap behind

3000cc
1 Laly 4.11.29 96,144 km/h
2 Brunet 4.27.31

+3000cc
1 Wagner 4.02.59
2 Rigal same time!
3 Bloch 4.37.46

There also a regularity classification

1.Laly with a gap of 55 points
2.Wagner 63 pts
3.Etancelin 98 pts
4.Sabipa 124 pts
5.Massé 614 pts

Don't ask me how it worked! I presume that the gap between each lap time of each runner generated points.

[Vitesse2]

Hein?

[GIGLEUX]

Richard: ????

[Vitesse2]

An expression of confusion, Jean-Maurice. Those results seem to make no sense, but presumably the organisers worked from some kind of complicated comparative regularity/handicap tables. In which case those times are not the actual elapsed times, but after whatever handicap was applied, since it would seem very unlikely that Massé's Salmson could get within a few minutes of a Bugatti twice its capacity, not to mention outrunning even bigger machines! OTOH, why is he so far down the regularity?

[humphries]

From my understanding of the race and its weird regulations it appears that to win the Florio Cup it was necessary to win your class on time but to win the class with as little variation of lap times as possible. So only five drivers were in with a chance to win the Cup, the five class winners.

Some drivers could not be bothered with all the nonsense, "Sabipa" and Lehoux amongst them. Lehoux was racing with "Sabipa" and then stopped just before the end of the race, got out and had a smoke. After his Bugatti team-mates had passed he got back in and finished his race. Etancelin and Eyston had stopped or slowed towards the end of every lap trying to complete each lap in the same time.

To some extent the Bugatti ploy worked but Robert Laly, under the direction of the Chairman of the Board of Directors of the Aries company ( no less! ) managed lap speeds that only varied by fractions of a second. He won his class easily and was the most regular of the class winners with his lap times. How this was translated into points I do not know, but the cup was his. The Peugeot team lapped faster but were not quite as consistent. Of the class winners Masse's times were by far the most inconsistent!

A similar event was held in Belgium in 1913 but each driver knew what his class lap times were officially meant to be, even if the speeds required were far too slow. In the Florio Cup the lap speeds were determined by the drivers and had to be consistent but fast enough to beat the class opposition. If there had been a large, competitive entry in every class then the concept may have worked. However........

John

[Hans Etzrodt]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
... Presumably they continued in the hope that someone would win a second time, but the eighth race, run concurrently with the Targa Florio, was won by Mercedes!

In 1925, they calculated that Peugeot and Itala were equal on placings over the years and it was decided that the cup would be awarded to whichever marque was in the lead at the end of the fourth lap: this turned out to be André Boillot's Peugeot...

The eighth Coppa Florio was NOT won by Mercedes [if I read the above correctly] but by Peugeot. Interestingly, only those seven makes of cars, which had won the Coppa once before and therefore were all equal in points, were allowed to participate in this eighth running in 1925. Obviously, because the Coppa could not be awarded after conclusion of the predetermined seven races, this eighth race was put on only to find a rightful second winner, whoever it might be from the seven manufacturers participating. The Nazzaro Company had already vanished, so therefore were eliminated and four of the others declined to enter, which left only Peugeot or Itala as possible winners. Now, for the 1925 Targa Florio, the distance required was five laps around the Madonie in Sizily. Only at a later time, it was decided to run also the “Final” Coppa Florio concurrently with the 1925 Targa and therefore it was decided to run this eighth Coppa according to the classification after the fourth lap. After this fourth lap André Boillot (Peugeot) was in the lead with 6h04m35s and the Coppa Florio belonged to Peugeot.

Also, to make it more interesting, one lap around the Saint-Brieuc Circuit was 13.575 km, which amounted to 407.250 km distance for the 30 laps. At least that is written in ALLGEMEINE AUTOMOBIL-ZEITUNG, 1927, No.15, p35.

That’s all for now, 'cause I have to go to work.

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Hans Etzrodt


The eighth Coppa Florio was NOT won by Mercedes [if I read the above correctly] but by Peugeot. Interestingly, only those seven makes of cars, which had won the Coppa once before and therefore were all equal in points, were allowed to participate in this eighth running in 1925.

Perhaps I didn't make myself quite clear, Hans.

Coppa Florio

I 1900
II 1904
III 1905
IV 1907
V 1908
VI 1914
VII 1922
VIII 1924
IX 1925

[Marcor]

The entry list (with #)

1100 cc (11 starters)
Massé (Salmson n°2)
Laval (Salmson n°4)
Ismalun (Salmson n°6), NA
Lipman (Salmson n°8), NA
Valette (Salmson n°?),
Violette Morris (BNC n°10)
Michel Doré (BNC n°12)
Pousse (BNC n°14)
d'Havrincourt (de Coucy n°16), NA
Lepicard (Donnet n°18)
de Brémont (G.M., Gendron Michelot) n°20
Mottet (d'Yrsan n°22), replaced Siran
Grégoire (Tracta Gephi n°24)
Maillet (Tracta Gephi n°26)
Fenaille (Tracta Gephi n°28), NA (injured)

1500 cc (1 starter)
"Sabipa" (Charavel) (Bugatti 1.5 L n°30)
Montevola (Bugatti 1.5 L n°34), NA

2000 cc (5 starters)
Imbert (Bugatti T35 4617 n°32)
Eyston (Bugatti 2 L n°36)
Lehoux (Bugatti 2 L n°38)
Etancelin (Bugatti 2 L n°40)
Andrieux (Christiane Huit n°42)

3000 cc (2 starters)
Laly (Ariès 3168 cc sport n°44)
Chassagne (Ariès 3168 cc sport n°46), NA
Brunet (Talbot n°48)

+ 3 L (3 starters)
Wagner (Peugeot n°50)
Rigal (Peugeot n°52)
Bloch (Lorraine Dietrich n°54)

I have the same results as Jean-Maurice except a detail, I have Masse with 164 points, not 614.

[Hans Etzrodt]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
...Coppa Florio
I 1900
II 1904
III 1905
IV 1907
V 1908
VI 1914
VII 1922
VIII 1924
IX 1925

In 1900 ?
May I ask, in all modesty, on whose fertile ground of historic imagination this information has been fabricated? First of all, we had discussed the Coppa Florio events some years ago, here at TNF. Since I, as a total greenhorn, had to learn about these early races, I had no choice but straighten out the confusion about these early Coppa events for my little list of Grand Prix Winners 1895-1949, which –by the way– can be accessed very rapidly by clicking at my signature below.

1900, September 10, – Coppa Brescia (Brescia) winner: Soncino (Soncino)
1904, September 5,.. – Coppa Brescia (Brescia) winner: Lancia (FIAT)
1905, September 9,.. – 1. Coppa Florio (Brescia) winner: Raggio (Itala)
1907, September 1,.. – 2. Coppa Florio (Brescia) winner: Minoia (Isotta-Fraschini)
1908, September 6,.. – 3. Coppa Florio (Bologna) winner: Nazzaro (FIAT)
1914, May 31,.......... – 4. Coppa Florio (Long Madonie) winner: Nazzaro (Nazzaro)
1921, September 4, . – 5. Coppa Florio (Brescia) winner: Goux (Ballot)
1922, November 19,. – 6. Coppa Florio (Medium Madonie) winner: A. Boillot (Peugeot)
1924, April 27,.......... – 7. Coppa Florio (Medium Madonie) winner: C. Werner (Mercedes)
1925, May 3,............ – 8. Coppa Florio (Medium Madonie) winner: A. Boillot (Peugeot)
1926, April 25,.......... – 9. Coppa Florio (Medium Madonie) winner: Costantini (Bugatti)
1927, July 17,.......... – 10. Coppa Florio (Saint-Brieuc) winner: Laly (Ariès)
1928, May 6,........... – 11. Coppa Florio (Medium Madonie) winner: Divo (Bugatti)
1929, May 5,............– 12. Coppa Florio (Medium Madonie) winner: Divo (Bugatti)

Oh, by the way, the Coppa Florio trophy itself did not even exist before 1905, the year it was first offered. Therefore it is very unlikely that a race of such a name could have been staged. Sounds more like someone concocted history wile having breakfast, lunch or other pleasant distractions simultaneously.

[Hans Etzrodt]

Originally posted by Hans Etzrodt
...one lap around the Saint-Brieuc Circuit was 13.575 km, which amounted to 407.250 km distance for the 30 laps. At least that is written in ALLGEMEINE AUTOMOBIL-ZEITUNG, 1927, No.15, p35...

Information from Etancelin - Le Livre de Bord d'un Pilote de Grand Prix on p44-45, refers to a triangular course of 13.575 km x 30 laps = 407.250 km.

AUTOMOBIL-REVUE 1927, No. 55 p4: The race on Sunday, July 17, 1927 took place on a circuit near Brieuc in the Bretagne to decide the Coupe Florio. The trophy had been won outright by Peugeot two years ago (1925) in Sicily. The French manufacturer then placed the trophy again for contest but with the condition that the races had to be staged alternately between France and Sicily. In 1926, Sicily had been the site of the Coppa Florio. Goux and Bugatti secured victory. The following year this classical race was held for the first time on French soil. The circuit from St. Brieuc was right outside the Bretagne harbortown and measured 13.575 km. A total of 30 laps had to be driven, which added up to 407.25 km total distance. The driver who completed the race with the greatest regularity would be declared the final victor. The improvements of the circuit had been completed in time, so that it was presented in excellent condition. The organizers had received the following 24 entries:
2 – Stéphane Massé (Salmson)
4 – Lipman (Salmson)
6 – Ismalun (Salmson)
8 – Laval (Salmson)
10 – G. T. Eyston (Bugatti)
etc.