14 replies to this topic

[uechtel]

Just happened to discover this old thread (no replies possible there any more). I did not read across it too diligently, so please forgive me, if the following is already known.

But I could not find the words "Tatra" nor a reference to the East German races (besides the two 1949 events) there, so I thought it would be worth to bring up the subject again.

When concerning myself a little bit with East German races I found out, that to give them an "international" touch on a few occasions guests from Czechoslovakia had been invited. In the race car class this was usually the Tatra team and AFAIK their car did not apply to Formula 2 rules because of its larger engine capacity (in fact with slightly over 2500 cc it would not even have fitted under Formula 1 in 1954, but seemingly this did not matter too much for the East German press).

This happened on the following occasions:

9.7.1950 Leipzig (Jan Mikel / Tatra - dna, only entry)
8.6.1952 Halle (Jaroslav Pavelka / Tatraplan - 7th)
23.8.1953 Sachsenring (Jaroslav Pavelka / Tatraplan - 4th)

I don´t know whether the car was already fitted with the same 2500 cc engine until 1952, but that would make at least the 1953 race counting as a Formula Libre event, at least on the same scales as the German events of 1949 (with Brütsch being the only interloper in a complete field of Formula 2 cars with overall and separate classification).

This opens the question to me "what makes a Formule Libre race a Formule Libre race?"

Is it sufficient to start more than one category simultaneously (a combined event for Formula 2 and 1500 cc sports cars for example) or is it necessary to have an overall classement at the end?

The first one would certainly "qualify" more German races up until the late sixties, when still Formula 2 cars were run parallel to Formula 1 at the German GP on the Nürburgring. Or the races for the SOuth African championship in the seventies when usually also F5000 and F2 were included in a common classement.

But on the other hand the second definition gives me problems for 1949, as the German "Libre" events (= when Brütsch participated in the Formula 2 event with his big Maserati or the two East German events) were always only for "race cars" with the complete palette of sports car races from 1100 cc up to 2 litres carried out separately. So strictly speaking the Libre event was not "open for everybody", but only for the race car class (even if it was generally not a problem to get your sports car entered as the F2 "rules" were seemingly understood as "everything up to two litres" - but then one could argue, that automatically every Formula 2 race could/should be regarded as "Libre event"?!?!?).

Another point is whether it is necessary, that there were indeed cars of more than one category present or whether they were only "theoretically" allowed (as in the case of the 1950 event at Leipzig, where it seems, that Mikel did never appear, turning the event "de facto" into a pure Fomrula 2 race)?

And finally here a number of further events, that I did not find in what was posted here so far:

Czechoslovakia:

Brno race 28.9.1952:
1st Jaroslav Pavelka / Tatraplan
2nd Edgar Barth / IFA-DAMW F2
also present:
Vaclav Bobek / Skoda (1100 cc sports car?)
? / Maserati

29.8.1954:
1st Jaroslav Pavelka / Tatraplan
2nd Arthur Rosenhammer / EMW 1500 Sport
ret Edgar Barth / EMW 1500 Sport
also present:
Vermirovsky? / Tatraplan
? / Skoda Monoposto
Stansilav Kohout? / KSP?


And then we had also the event at Saarbrücken in 1949 here, when the event was completed by a race open to everybody at the end of the day:

http://forums.atlasf...ight=Sarrebruck

[David McKinney]

As I'm sure you realise, the term "Formule Libre" literally means free formula. It would always be announced by a race organiser before entries were received, so that if all entries were, by coincidence, F2 cars, for example, it would still be an FL race. We should not at this stage retrospectively change such events to F2, for two reasons. One, it is historically inaccurate, and two, we don't know at this distance whether every F2 car in a particular FL race still complied with the F2 regs, with regard to minimum weight, for example.
I doubt the German races in which Brütsch competed were FL events - I suspect they were open to F1 and F2 car. Or perhaps to "Formule Libre sirngle-seaters", if in fact sportscar were banned.
The German GPs you refer to were never FL events - they were races open to cars complying with F1 or F2 regulations. Similarly, the South African races in the '70s were not FL events either. They were races for F5000, F1 and F2 cars.

[anjakub]

Cena mesta Brna
Aug. 29. 1954

Racing category (start 11, finish 9) - ? laps
1. Pavelka (Tatra - monoposto) 52:12,1
2. Rosenhammer (EMW) 54:05,8
2. Filipovic (BMW) 1:00:29,5

ret. Barth (EMW) engine
ret. Vermirovsky (Tatra) – 5 lap

Category 1200cc (start 2 minutes after racing category, start 11 cars) - ? laps
1. Bobek (Skoda 1100) 57:14,8
2. Vlcek (Magda) 58:12,6
3. Fousek (Skoda 1200) 58:16,1

Category 750 cc – 6 laps
1. F. Kames (Minor) 1:02:04,2
2. F. Brill (Minor) 1:02:11,2
3. Hovorka (HMV) 1:02:11,8
4. Schleichert (Minor)

[uechtel]

@Andrzej: Reliable as ever...

As I'm sure you realise, the term "Formule Libre" literally means free formula. It would always be announced by a race organiser before entries were received, so that if all entries were, by coincidence, F2 cars, for example, it would still be an FL race. We should not at this stage retrospectively change such events to F2, for two reasons. One, it is historically inaccurate, and two, we don't know at this distance whether every F2 car in a particular FL race still complied with the F2 regs, with regard to minimum weight, for example.
I doubt the German races in which Brütsch competed were FL events - I suspect they were open to F1 and F2 car. Or perhaps to "Formule Libre sirngle-seaters", if in fact sportscar were banned.
The German GPs you refer to were never FL events - they were races open to cars complying with F1 or F2 regulations. Similarly, the South African races in the '70s were not FL events either. They were races for F5000, F1 and F2 cars.

Brütsch´s car was 3700 cc supercharged so no Formula 1 nor any other valid formula. Simply a "race car"! So perhaps the race should be classified as combined race for Formula 2 AND Formule Libre cars?

Sports cars were not banned as "sports car" was de-facto only a subset to Formula 2 (no further specification besides maximum engine limit) and in effect also a subset to race cars in general (as is proved by many Veritas sports cars being successfully raced in that category). So while the race was open to "race cars" it was in effect no problem to get any sports car (even 1500 cc on some occasions) to the start.

You see it´s not all that easy...

Other than that I fully agree to your opinion.

[Ray Bell]

There is only one way in which I would dispute what David has written...

It could have been that the race was originally set down for a specific category (or two... or three) and that a lack of entries led to others being included and the race requirements being changed before the acceptances were notified.

On an associated subject, does anyone know of any occasion (other than, perhaps, Woodside) when a Ford V8 ran in the 4.5-litre F!? Or any other American engine, for that matter?

[sat]

And finally here a number of further events

To both Czech races:

at that time championship of Czechoslovakia was inscribed in (most) 3 different sport cars categories and one for racing cars (near formula libre or bring what you have).

To Uechtel:

name Jan Mikel I see for the first time in my life, possibly it is an typo.

[Don Capps]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
There On an associated subject, does anyone know of any occasion (other than, perhaps, Woodside) when a Ford V8 ran in the 4.5-litre F!? Or any other American engine, for that matter?

I recall that several Scandavian events were run to F1 and a number of the entries used the Ford engine during the early-1950's.

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
On an associated subject, does anyone know of any occasion (other than, perhaps, Woodside) when a Ford V8 ran in the 4.5-litre F!? Or any other American engine, for that matter?

Don's mentioned the Swedish Specials - there were also Hudsons, a Kaiser and a Buick! But whether they're really F1 races is debatable!

But one American-engined car which definitely ran in a pukka F1 race was Bobbie Baird's Emeryson-Duesenberg. And then there was Archie Butterworth's AJB-Duesenberg, which was entered a few times but never raced ....

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Don Capps
I recall that several Scandavian events were run to F1 and a number of the entries used the Ford engine during the early-1950's.

Yes... why did that lovely thread die?

Some interesting cars among them, and it was F!?

When were the Deusenbergs run, Speedy?

[uechtel]

Originally posted by sat


name Jan Mikel I see for the first time in my life, possibly it is an typo.

Not at all - at least not from my side.

Race programme Leipzig 1950:

Name:
Mikel, Jan Jiri

Location:
Radeberg

Car:
Tatra CSR (2 litres!)


Race programme Sternberg 1950:

Mikel, Radeberg, Tatra CSR

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
When were the Deusenbergs run, Speedy?

1948. Baird ran the Emeryson in Jersey (DNF - gearbox) and Paul Emery drove it in the Empire Trophy (DNF - transmission). Baird raced it at Albi (DNF - magneto) but it failed scrutineering for the British GP!

Archie Butterworth made a couple of entries for the AJB-Duesy in 1949, but I think they're more theoretical than real.

[st59cz]

Radeberg

aber das ist ein sächsische Stadt oder?

http://www.radeberg.de/

[uechtel]

yes, right indeed!

But Jan Mikel does not sound very Saxonian and how on earth did he get into the cockpit of a Tatra, if he was not Czechoslovakian?

Perhaps there is another town on the other side of the border, which had that name, too?

[st59cz]

But Jan Mikel does not sound very Saxonian

Right, but as I know round the Czech border live slavic minority in that region (Lausitzer?).

As mentioned I have never seen this name in results of temporary Czechoslovakian races.

[uechtel]

...neither in any German ones, besides the entries given above!