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Would the Jaguar XJ13 have been competitive at Le Mans?


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#1 Philip Whiteman

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Posted 28 February 2004 - 16:14

Argh! - I did mean Le Mans...

It's an idle question (but speculation about a lost wonder like this, something in the same vein as Martin-Baker's hugely impressive, one-off, 460 mph 1944 MB5 fighter, is such fun!)

According to Jaguar Sports (Hamlyn, 1980), Jaguar had planned to return to Le mans with works entries in 1958. Claud Baily first started drawing lines for the company's competition V12 in 1955 (nicely oversquare at 87 x 70 mm). Due to the infamous works fire of 1957 and a decision to concentrate on road cars, this engine - looking very much son-of-XK (and very different to the eventual single-cam-per-bank flat-head production engine) - did not run until August 1964. It was not until March 1966 that the mid-engined XJ13 car was finished and further procrastination meant it didn't actually turn a wheel in anger for another year.

So, in 1967 Jaguar had a mid-engined five-litre sports prototype that could lap MIRA's high-speed circuit at 161 mph, hitting 175 on the straights. It used the engine as a semi-stressed member (the unit came out the car complete with the rear suspension) and weighed 2,478 lb (424 bhp/ton). The company felt, however, that the car was by this time outdated and likely to be uncompetitive.

The competition V12 produced 500 hp. There are claims that it was developed to push out 800 hp.

My question to all you much more knowledgeable people out there is, had Jaguar given the project greater priority and, say, got the thing running in '65, would it have been competitive?

Or was the XJ13 merely a lemon, albeit a very beautiful one?

[Footnote to the MB5 story: Jimmy Martin was asked why designed his fighter with a steel wing spar. "would you," he asked his interlocutor "put your trust in a car with aluminium road-springs?"]

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#2 dretceterini

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Posted 29 February 2004 - 01:09

IMO, if they had the thing running early enough, it certainly would have been competitive

#3 wibblywobbly

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Posted 29 February 2004 - 05:17

I think it would've been quite competetive. It's got all of the attributes that a top-notch racer would have. A Sleek body, the brakes were probably great(knowing Jaguar) and a powerful fuel-injected engine. How many of the other prototypes were fuelies, at that time? Sad to see her lay around and waste away!

#4 Roger Clark

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Posted 29 February 2004 - 08:39

In 1965 it wuld have been up against the P2 Ferrari; 400bhp and 2,205 lbs for the Ferrari, 500bhp and 2,478 lbs for the Jaguar. It should have been competitive. By 1967 the P4 was developing 450 bhp and weighing 2,130 lbs, and was struggling against the Mark 4 Fords at Le Mans which would presumably have been Jaguar's priority. After 1967, the Jaguar would not have complied with the rules, unless they did a Porsche and built 25.

THe pace of development in sports car racing at this time was very high, and by 1965 Jaguar had neither Ferrari's vast experience nor Ford's resources. THey had no recent experience of running a top-line racing team. I think the XJ13 may have been competitive against Ferrari in 64-65 but not when the Americans go going.

#5 Pedro 917

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Posted 29 February 2004 - 10:08

Here's a picture of the XJ13 I took at Silverstone 1973 where it was shown to the public the day before the British GP. It's such a beautiful car, a pitty it never raced. Was there only one car built?
And wasn't it destroyed in a crash and rebuilt?

Posted Image

#6 Paul Parker

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Posted 29 February 2004 - 11:31

The question of whether the XJ13 would have been competitive or not really does not matter. The fact is that (Sir) William Lyons was not interested and begrudged expenditure on racing, just as he always had done unless like Le Mans in the 1950s, it helped sell more production cars. Jaguar had neither the facilities or the up to date experience in racing at that time and the car was in effect a 'pet project' for Bill Heynes, Claude Bailey (who did the did most of the engine work that comprised of two XK heads on a common block) and others. It was never going to race regardless of its potential.

It might have succeeded if it had been seriously developed right from the start but it was never more than a might have been that ended its factory years as a PR vehicle after being rebuilt following Dewis's Lindley crash caused by tyre or wheel failure in January 1971 when being demonstrated to the press. Its first official public appearance was in 1973. In any case its beautiful and typically rounded Malcom Sayer lines belied a serious weight problem, suspect handling, poor aerodynamics and inadequate brakes.

#7 wibblywobbly

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Posted 29 February 2004 - 12:31

Well, if the FiA hadn't have "screwed" Jag, by imposing the 3.0 litre engine capacity rule, in '67, maybe we would have seen them out and about.(Well, not me, I wasn't born yet : )

Not sure about a crash, Pedro. Seems like they only used it as a development mule for the "V-12 E-type" project, which is a completely differnet bottle of ketchup.

#8 Ruairidh

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Posted 29 February 2004 - 15:18

Originally posted by Paul Parker
In any case its beautiful and typically rounded Malcom Sayer lines belied a serious weight problem, suspect handling, poor aerodynamics and inadequate brakes.


.........but boy it looks great and fast. I've always been fond of the adage re: motor racing cars: "if it looks right it is right" I wonder which other cars looked as "right" as the XJ13 and turned out to be donkeys.....

#9 rdrcr

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Posted 29 February 2004 - 15:33

Originally posted by wibblywobbly
I think it would've been quite competetive. It's got all of the attributes that a top-notch racer would have. A Sleek body, the brakes were probably great(knowing Jaguar) and a powerful fuel-injected engine. How many of the other prototypes were fuelies, at that time? Sad to see her lay around and waste away!


No doubt had Jaquar thrown it's collective weight behind the effort the car would have done very well at Le Mans. It had all the attributes for winning the first time out - add some high quality drivers and they would have been tough to beat.

As far as laying around and wasting away... seems the car has had one of those over the top restorations performed in the not to distant past. It sure is a stunning piece however and deserving of the attention.

Posted Image

Pedro,

You are correct about the damage to the original car and its rebuilding.

THe car was developed in the sixties to take Jaguar to Le Mans and give the GT40s a run for their money, the original XJ13 boasted over 500bhp. A mid mounted five litre V12 with twin cam heads provided the power to match the looks and not surprisingly is said to be a blisteringly quick car.
The merger of Jaguar with BMC created a distraction from the racing goals, and budgetary considerations resulted in the Le Mans plans being sidelines. The car was left with an uncertain future.

The development of the new V12 needed to be kept a secret as the six cylinder E Type was selling well and news of a V12 might jeopardise sales if buyers were to hold out for a V12 version. For that reason, Sir William Lyons instructed that the car be kept under covers until its future was more certain.

Going against those instructions, Chief Development Tester Norman Dewis felt the need to give the XJ13 a blast around MIRA one Sunday morning. Dewiss set a new unofficial lap record at the facility topping out at 175mph!

Sir William got to hear of his exploits and his infectious enthusiasm for the project won Lyons over and he let Dewiss continue development of the car at weekends. Further work went on, but it wasn't enough to ensure that the car could win if entered at Le Mans so the project was once again put on ice.

The development of the V12 hadn't gone to waste however. A detuned derivative of the new engine was put in the E Type for launch in 1972. In preparation for the launch a TV crew was sent to MIRA to film Dewiss giving the car a run. The footage would be used to launch the V12 E Type.

They filmed all day and then the crew asked for one final drive by. Dewiss flew past on the banking at 140mph when disaster struck. The offside rear wheel collapsed sending the car hurtling into the infield. The XJ13 rolled end over end before coming to a halt on its wheels. Miraculously, Dewiss survived but the car was in tatters.

Under normal circumstances, that would have been the end of the story, with the car being broken up for scrap. By some chance, it was in fact returned to the factory and stayed in a corner for almost two years before the decision was taken to restore it.

Fortunately, the wooden formers that had been used to build the original body had survived.

Abbey Panels, the company that had made the original body panels, were able to fabricate new ones and the restored body began to take shape. The wheels were a different story, however. Two of them had been almost completely destroyed in the accident and the patterns used to make them had been scrapped. Eventually, it was found that the damaged rims could be removed and replaced with a modified outer section from a Concorde undercarriage.

It remains the property of Jaguar and its offer to sell for £7m was never met in 2001. There has been at least two authentic reproductions of the XJ13 built that I know of.

#10 Philip Whiteman

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Posted 29 February 2004 - 17:19

Please, please, please tell me that the original car's not been f***ed over like this!

A couple of points of fact: the racing V12 only looked like it had a pair of XK heads - not only was the included valve angle rather narrower, but the intake ports were of a completely different, downdraft configuration. Also, the cams were gear driven (although a chain was used for the primary stage of the drive from the crankshaft. The production-car bears little resemblance to the racing engine - the crankcase is very different in pattern (being based on Coventry Climax practice) and the heads are rather prosaic single-cam items (adopted for reasons of expense, underbonnet space and because the single-cam head gave better low-speed torque).

One other interesting factoid: when Jaguar rebuilt the car in the early 1970s, the broken wheel rims were indeed machined off - and replacement items cut-down from Concorde wheel forgings welded in their place.

Given the unique nature of so many parts of the car, it is a wonder that Jaguar used to demonstrate it at all (and didn't it make a glorious noise!)

I still cannot believe that even under Frord ownership the original car could have been so buggered up...

#11 dolomite

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Posted 29 February 2004 - 19:28

Originally posted by Philip Whiteman
One other interesting factoid: when Jaguar rebuilt the car in the early 1970s, the broken wheel rims were indeed machined off - and replacement items cut-down from Concorde wheel forgings welded in their place.


I find this extremely difficult to believe. Concorde wheels would be far too large in diameter.

#12 Philip Whiteman

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Posted 29 February 2004 - 23:19

My sources were Michael Scarlett (who'd interviewed Lofty England for his piece) and Doug Nye, both writing in Autocar.

Anybody got a record of Concorde's nosewheel diameter?

#13 Jack-the-Lad

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Posted 29 February 2004 - 23:48

It is certainly one of the most stunningly beautiful racing cars ever built. It also makes a delicious sound! The car is featured in "Jaguar-Victory by Design" and does not appear to have been over-restored, at least in the typical five to ten foot shots.

Jack

#14 FrankB

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Posted 29 February 2004 - 23:56

Originally posted by Philip Whiteman


Anybody got a record of Concorde's nosewheel diameter?


http://www.concordesst.com/gear.html

Nose wheels - 31X10.75-14

Main undercarriage - 47X15.75-22 (elsewhere on this same site the overall tyre diameter is quoted as 1.1 m - http://www.concordes...light/mods.html)

The Michelin NZG tyres were fitted as part of the post Paris crash modifications. It isn't clear from this website if the wheel size was altered at the same time.

#15 WDH74

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Posted 01 March 2004 - 00:49

I've read that most of the engine's internals are one-offs, and at least one piston has been welded up after breaking. Not exactly bits you'd find down at the local parts shop, eh?

Didn't Lynx build XJ13 replicas?

-William

#16 Cal

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Posted 01 March 2004 - 05:01

That car above is a replica right? Being that it is surrounded in American cars including the Tucker parked behind, is this photo not taken in the States?

Cal.

#17 rdrcr

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Posted 01 March 2004 - 08:56

Originally posted by Cal
That car above is a replica right? Being that it is surrounded in American cars including the Tucker parked behind, is this photo not taken in the States?

Cal.


I'm not 100% certain about that cars' authenticity. But the original is supposed to be in the new Jaguar Museum in New Jersey that was set up by the Ford Motor Corporation and Jaguar. The car you see directly behind the Jag is a Chrysler Ghia, as are some of the others surrounding it. The photo was obtained from Velocity.com - they claim it is the 1966 XJ13. I also can't say for sure where that photo was taken and it is possible that the picture was taken when the car was on loan or on display out side of the Ford empire.

As far as I can tell, all of the reproductions faithfully recreate the original design, which of course the original car no longer resembles and that is why, I think the car in the photo is in fact that car.

#18 D-Type

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Posted 01 March 2004 - 09:40

Originally posted by wibblywobbly
Well, if the FiA hadn't have "screwed" Jag, by imposing the 3.0 litre engine capacity rule, in '67, maybe we would have seen them out and about.(Well, not me, I wasn't born yet : )

Not sure about a crash, Pedro. Seems like they only used it as a development mule for the "V-12 E-type" project, which is a completely differnet bottle of ketchup.


Was it the '67 3 litre limit or the '58 one that did for Jaguar?

The iconoclastic 'knobbly' Lister Jaguar that never ran in a first rank sports car race. The de-stroked 3 litre XK engine never worked right.

#19 bill moffat

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Posted 01 March 2004 - 10:31

I would join the general consensus on this one. If Jaguar had had the will and the expertise the XJ13 would have been seriously competitive at Le Mans in 1965. In 1966 it would have struggled against the sorted GT40's and in 1967 would have been lucky to make the top 5. By 1968 it was, of course, rendered obsolete.

An interesting question is, competitive or not, who would have run this car. Jaguar themselves lacked an effective competition dept. at that stage. Broadspeed were still playing with Anglias and Minis whilst Walkinshaw was still in shorts playing rugby.

Which brings me to the subject of a white XJ13 with blue stripes. At that time Briggs Cunningham had the most recent Jaguar experience (running E types at La Sarthe). So I wonder whether any consideration was given to a "back door" entry to Le Mans with a covertly works-supported Cunningham XJ13. 2 decades later Bob Tullius ran his Gp 44 Jags at Le Mans with the hint of atleast some factory support.

Incidentally on the subject of cross-liveried Jags who remembers XJR005.006? This was the Tullius chassis that TWR brought across the Atlantic to evaluate. Dressed in British Racing Green has there ever been a prettier sports car ?

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#20 Mike Argetsinger

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Posted 01 March 2004 - 13:00

Originally posted by bill moffat


Which brings me to the subject of a white XJ13 with blue stripes. At that time Briggs Cunningham had the most recent Jaguar experience (running E types at La Sarthe). So I wonder whether any consideration was given to a "back door" entry to Le Mans with a covertly works-supported Cunningham XJ13.


Briggs Cunningham was effectively out of racing by this time. His last race as an entrant and driver was Sebring 1965 in a Porsche 904. But the team really had ceased operation after Le Mans 1963.

#21 petefenelon

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Posted 01 March 2004 - 13:40

Originally posted by bill moffat

Which brings me to the subject of a white XJ13 with blue stripes. At that time Briggs Cunningham had the most recent Jaguar experience (running E types at La Sarthe). So I wonder whether any consideration was given to a "back door" entry to Le Mans with a covertly works-supported Cunningham XJ13. 2 decades later Bob Tullius ran his Gp 44 Jags at Le Mans with the hint of atleast some factory support.


If it had raced, how about John Coombs team? After all, he'd run lightweight Es a few years before?

Or how about (circa '64) an ex-Ecosse driver who had made his name in clubbie sports car events, knew and liked big sports cars and at the time had more ambitions that way than in single seaters, and was working with a small team in a woodshed in deepest Surrey?;)

#22 Arjan de Roos

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Posted 01 March 2004 - 14:07

I had the privilige to make this car shine for one of the exhibition days at the Auto RAI (Amsterdam Motor Show) in 1997. Original or replica, it looked pretty original to me. It would be a sell out if Jaguar would make a retro series of say 25 pieces. But no concorde wheels, please!

#23 bill moffat

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Posted 01 March 2004 - 14:52

Originally posted by petefenelon


If it had raced, how about John Coombs team? After all, he'd run lightweight Es a few years before?

Or how about (circa '64) an ex-Ecosse driver who had made his name in clubbie sports car events, knew and liked big sports cars and at the time had more ambitions that way than in single seaters, and was working with a small team in a woodshed in deepest Surrey?;)


Just imagine that car in Ecosse colours flat on the Mulsanne with the wee Scot at the wheel, Jimmy waiting on the pit counter to take it over.

Sorry just a little fantasy on a dreary Monday..;)

#24 Ruairidh

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Posted 01 March 2004 - 15:23

Originally posted by bill moffat


Just imagine that car in Ecosse colours flat on the Mulsanne with the wee Scot at the wheel, Jimmy waiting on the pit counter to take it over.

Sorry just a little fantasy on a dreary Monday..;)


..........but one that, many thousands of miles away, put a smile on my face - ain't TNF great :clap:

#25 2F-001

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Posted 01 March 2004 - 15:41

Thanks for posting the Silverstone picture, Pedro917... I was there that day; I have always recalled seeing the car at Silverstone, but didn't know when or at which meeting. I seem to remember it doing a lap or two... does anyone know who drove it?

#26 petefenelon

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Posted 01 March 2004 - 16:22

Originally posted by bill moffat


Just imagine that car in Ecosse colours flat on the Mulsanne with the wee Scot at the wheel, Jimmy waiting on the pit counter to take it over.

Sorry just a little fantasy on a dreary Monday..;)


Oh no, Jimmy would've been in the Lotus 30 Coupe ;)

JYS would've been sharing with Innes, of course! :)

#27 dolomite

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Posted 01 March 2004 - 17:14

Originally posted by FrankB


http://www.concordesst.com/gear.html

Nose wheels - 31X10.75-14

Main undercarriage - 47X15.75-22 (elsewhere on this same site the overall tyre diameter is quoted as 1.1 m - http://www.concordes...light/mods.html)

The Michelin NZG tyres were fitted as part of the post Paris crash modifications. It isn't clear from this website if the wheel size was altered at the same time.


OK, nose wheels slightly more feasible perhaps. (When I first read the comment I assumed it was talking about main wheels). But according to this site the XJ-13 used 15" wheels, not 14", so they're still not the same.

The Concorde main wheel size was not changed when NZG tyres were fitted, they were designed to fit the existing Dunlop wheel rims.

#28 rdrcr

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Posted 01 March 2004 - 17:23

dolomite,

It was the nose wheels... Read in there that they were "cut-down". I think it's just the center sections that were used and afixed to the original rims.

William,

Not only Lynx, but several other companies have produced reproductions of that car. Which means there a few more than I had thought.

Am I not alone in thinking that Pedro was at damn near every race event in the 60's and 70's? Thanks for the photo of the original car Pedro - a great shot.

#29 Ruairidh

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Posted 01 March 2004 - 19:45

Originally posted by rdrcr
Am I not alone in thinking that Pedro was at damn near every race event in the 60's and 70's? Thanks for the photo of the original car Pedro - a great shot.


I also meant to say something similar. In particular - thanks for sharing Pedro, I really enjoy your photos :clap:

#30 dolomite

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Posted 02 March 2004 - 01:13

Originally posted by rdrcr
dolomite,

It was the nose wheels... Read in there that they were "cut-down". I think it's just the center sections that were used and afixed to the original rims.


Sorry, I still don't believe it. The centre sections of the wheels shown in the photos in this thread look nothing like an aircraft nose wheel hub would.

http://www.concordes...m/inside/4i.jpg

#31 Cal

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Posted 02 March 2004 - 02:02

The car you see directly behind the Jag is a Chrysler Ghia, as are some of the others surrounding it. The photo was obtained from Velocity.com - they claim it is the 1966 XJ13.


I was referring to the pale green car. What is that then?

If that is indeed XJ13, it looks fit for Pebble Beach. A shame if you ask me.

Cheers,

Cal.

#32 rdrcr

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Posted 02 March 2004 - 02:21

Originally posted by dolomite


Sorry, I still don't believe it. The centre sections of the wheels shown in the photos in this thread look nothing like an aircraft nose wheel hub would.

http://www.concordes...m/inside/4i.jpg


Ok.. how about the word from the Daimler Jaguar Heritage Trust ?

(It's down near the end story you'll find on that page.)

#33 Cal

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Posted 02 March 2004 - 02:29

I just found this photo taken last year: http://www.barchetta...uar-xj13-7.html If the over restored car in the above post is the real deal, it must have undergone that tranformation very recently. Also, the wheels look incorrect to me.

Cal.

#34 rdrcr

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Posted 02 March 2004 - 02:36

Originally posted by Cal


I was referring to the pale green car. What is that then?

If that is indeed XJ13, it looks fit for Pebble Beach. A shame if you ask me.

Cheers,

Cal.

The car directly facing the rear-end of the XJ13 is a Chrysler Dual Ghia (late 50's), the black one is also a Ghia bodied Chrysler (early 50's I think). The turquoise colored car, I'm not sure of - but it has my curiosity piqued. I'll bet that Anton would know or have a good idea anyway...

Many of the Giha bodied cars had slight differences in their construction.

#35 rdrcr

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Posted 02 March 2004 - 02:46

Originally posted by Cal
I just found this photo taken last year: http://www.barchetta...uar-xj13-7.html If the over restored car in the above post is the real deal, it must have undergone that tranformation very recently. Also, the wheels look incorrect to me.

Cal.



Yeah, I saw those too when I was searching around... You're assuming that the car in your post is the real deal. It's too original looking IMHO. By my understanding, that's the (original) configuration when it was wrecked and (supposedly) the original car doesn't look like that any more. Look at Pedro's original photo - that one is for sure.

I am really curious now... :confused:

I'd be ready to capitulate at any time, I'm more interested in seeing some sort of absolute proof.

BTW, regarding those wheels, they look odd because they were remade remember?

EDIT: Check this news item from September 12, 2003 -

http://www.processin...tps/tps109.html

#36 Philip Whiteman

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Posted 02 March 2004 - 09:17

Lot of confusion here about the rebuild: Dewis crashed the car during a filming session in 1971, rolling it several times and wrecking two of the wheels. The original team at Jaguar/Abbey panels rebuilt it before the public Silverstone demonstrations back in the 70s. This involved replacement of much of the external skin, machining off the rims of the two damaged wheels and welding in place the infamous unfinished sections of Concorde nosewheel rim (which were then turned down to size).

As rebuilt by Jaguar, the car looked almost exactly as it had before the crash. The only external difference was a mild flaring of the wheel arches (they had looked very E-Type on the car, as first built). The engine and mechanicals were undamaged, but the radiator was replaced with a standard XJ12 item (which was actually lighter!).

Thus, if the car realy does sport highly-polished or even chromed wheels now it is because 'restoration' bullshitters have got their hands on the thing. And what the hell is it doing in New Jersey?

#37 Pedro 917

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Posted 02 March 2004 - 12:32

Originally posted by rdrcr
Am I not alone in thinking that Pedro was at damn near every race event in the 60's and 70's? Thanks for the photo of the original car Pedro - a great shot.

Originally posted by Ruairidh
I also meant to say something similar. In particular - thanks for sharing Pedro, I really enjoy your photos

I was born on the 11th of June 1955, that horrible day at Le Mans...........
I saw my first race in Zolder 1969 (GP of Limburg - F.2) when I was 14 ! All the great drivers were there : Stewart, Ickx, Rindt, Siffert, Courage, Pescarolo, even Bill Ivy.....those were the days when you could stroll down the paddock and meet the heroes. Pedro Rodriguez always was my favorite driver, from the moment I saw his first portrait (I recall it was a picture from French Sport-Auto taken at the South African GP 1968). Unfortunately, it wasn't until the 1000kms race of Spa 1971 that I met him. It was an unforgettable day, one never to forget. I met Pedro in the paddock, during the race, when he came out of the toilet.... That toilet is still there today (at the "Parc Fermé) and whenever I pass there, it feels like I'm walking on sacred ground. I got his autograph on a centerfold from "Car" magazine showing him in the BRM P153, winning at Spa the year before. As I didn't have a camera I was looking for my friend but he was nowhere to be found, I still regret it today. After the race, I climbed the pitwall in front of the podium and asked Pedro for a flower. He stepped down and had to kneel to give it to me. With hundreds of people standing in front of the podium, I'm still hoping that someday, a picture will pop-up showing Pedro giving me that flower. I still have it and I keep it as a relic.
When Pedro died 2 months later, I really didn't have another favorite. In fact I started to collect everything I could lay my hands on that had something to do with the Rodriguez brothers. I saw nearly every major race in Belgium from then on and although I was only 18, my father allowed me to go to Silverstone in 1973 with a friend. We slept in a tent except for the night before the GP, when we "slept" in the Lotus pit, got up at five a.m. and spent the rest of the day on top of it. Those were the days! I recall being thrown out of the pitlane by Montezomolo only to sneak back in through another pitbox. When he saw me again, he just shook his head. Nowadays, you'd end up in prison.....I took the picture of the Jaguar the day before the GP in between support races or practice I guess. Just climbed down from the pitlane wall and took the shot. I just had a little instamatic camera and took slides which was cheaper. I also got a ride with Ronnie Peterson in a Lotus Europe on Tuesday which was also unforgettable. I wore a deer-stalker just like Pedro's and I got close to many drivers during that period. I have many pictures of racing drivers wearing my deer-stalker. You can check it out at my brother's website under the Sherlock Holmes collection: here . I went back to Brands Hatch in 1974 and 1976 and also saw a couple of GP at Zandvoort and Hockenheim. I lost a great deal of my interest in the early eighties, when commerce took over. But it was an intense period and I've got so many fond memories of that era. Nowadays I enjoy going to historic events and have a chat with the drivers and owners. Last year, I was at Goodwood for the first time and I hope to go back there every year. I really love to share stories with you and as we have an extensive collection of pictures, books and magazines, I can ad some color to it all. Come to think of it, maybe I should have posted this in the introduction thread........I'll have to do an effort!

#38 provapr

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Posted 02 March 2004 - 13:09

There are some very interesting photo's of the rebuild by Abbey Panels at this page below. Hope the link works. My technical capabilities lead me to think it might not...

http://www.loadesplc...es/eloades4.htm

#39 wildman

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Posted 02 March 2004 - 14:31

I'm certain that pimped-out abomination in rdcr's post is a replica, not the original. The photo appears almost certainly to have been shot at the Blackhawk Museum in Danville, Calif. It's the sort of place that specializes in this sort of spit-and-polish presentation. I think it's highly doubtful that Jaguar ever loaned the XJ13 to them.

Here's an image from one of Blackhawk's exhibits:
Posted Image
The gallery has a mezzanine that would facilitate an overhead photo like that of the XJ13 replica, and the marble floor would seem to be a dead giveaway.

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#40 rdrcr

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Posted 02 March 2004 - 16:55

:blush:

Right you are and I'm suprised that it took until you mentioned it, to click with me... When time allows, I'll call up there and speak with Don Williams if he's around, and see about that car.

#41 dolomite

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Posted 02 March 2004 - 18:29

Originally posted by Philip Whiteman
Lot of confusion here about the rebuild: Dewis crashed the car during a filming session in 1971, rolling it several times and wrecking two of the wheels. The original team at Jaguar/Abbey panels rebuilt it before the public Silverstone demonstrations back in the 70s. This involved replacement of much of the external skin, machining off the rims of the two damaged wheels and welding in place the infamous unfinished sections of Concorde nosewheel rim (which were then turned down to size).


Well that brings me back to my previous point, that Concorde nose wheels are 14" diameter, whereas the published information for the XJ13 states that it had 15" rims. Even if it was machined from a raw forging I don't think you'd have enough material there to make up that much increase in size.

Lots of interesting links this thread has brought up though!

#42 rdrcr

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Posted 02 March 2004 - 23:45

I just got off the phone with Jon Hart who is the Director of the Museum. The car we see in the photograph (in my original post) is a reproduction and was built in 1994 by a New Zealand company called Tempero Coach and Motorcars Ltd. I'm told they recreated that car from plans / blueprints from Jaguar. (As claimed by Tempero)

The original XJ13 was in fact, recently restored and is on display somewhere (it was thought, England at present).

EDIT:

I have received lots of additional contact information and will investigate further when time allows.

In the interest of accuracy, I believe I've found a link to several photos of the original car:

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image





#43 VAR1016

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Posted 03 March 2004 - 00:07

The XJ13 was at Goodwood festival of Speed one year.

I have a picture of me studying some detail.

The car was technically interesting to me as a Lucas injection enthusiast. The engine was fitted with the Lucas axial injectors in specially-shaped inlet trumpets. I always fancied a set of those.

As I was was looking, a chap turned up, sat in the car, flicked a couple of switches and BLATT, BLATT went the engine.

Excellent

PdeRL

#44 Cal

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Posted 04 March 2004 - 04:21

Originally posted by wildman
I'm certain that pimped-out abomination in rdcr's post is a replica, not the original. The photo appears almost certainly to have been shot at the Blackhawk Museum in Danville, Calif. It's the sort of place that specializes in this sort of spit-and-polish presentation. I think it's highly doubtful that Jaguar ever loaned the XJ13 to them.

Here's an image from one of Blackhawk's exhibits:
Posted Image
The gallery has a mezzanine that would facilitate an overhead photo like that of the XJ13 replica, and the marble floor would seem to be a dead giveaway.


Knew it......there is the Tucker in full side view. What a pick, if I do say so myself.

Something just didn't look right about the XJ13 in that photo.

Cal.

#45 Cal

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Posted 04 March 2004 - 04:34

Originally posted by rdrcr
I just got off the phone with Jon Hart who is the Director of the Museum. The car we see in the photograph (in my original post) is a reproduction and was built in 1994 by a New Zealand company called Tempero Coach and Motorcars Ltd. I'm told they recreated that car from plans / blueprints from Jaguar. (As claimed by Tempero)

The original XJ13 was in fact, recently restored and is on display somewhere (it was thought, England at present).

EDIT:

I have received lots of additional contact information and will investigate further when time allows.

In the interest of accuracy, I believe I've found a link to several photos of the original car:

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image




That fence behind looks like the fence behind the pits at the Goodwood Circuit. Are they taken at the Revival one year?

Cal.

#46 rdrcr

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Posted 04 March 2004 - 06:08

Originally posted by Cal
29-Feb-04 22:01 16

That car above is a replica right? Being that it is surrounded in American cars including the Tucker parked behind, is this photo not taken in the States?

Cal.

Originally posted by Cal


Knew it......there is the Tucker in full side view. What a pick, if I do say so myself.

Something just didn't look right about the XJ13 in that photo.

Cal.


:rolleyes: :lol: clairvoyance more like... or more accurately, coincidence. Just where do you see that Tucker in my photo?

:p

As it turns out, you were correct about the Jag...

#47 Cal

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Posted 05 March 2004 - 01:19

Just where do you see that Tucker in my photo?[/B]


See that pale green car in the top right hand corner. I knew by the shape of the rear guard it was a Tucker. Fairly obscure car to guess don't you think?? :p

Cal.

#48 antonvrs

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Posted 05 March 2004 - 01:44

quote:Just where do you see that Tucker in my photo?[/B]



See that pale green car in the top right hand corner. I knew by the shape of the rear guard it was a Tucker. Fairly obscure car to guess don't you think??

Cal.
=========================================================================
The pale green metallic car in the upper right corner is not a Tucker, that much I'm sure of.
It looks like a Chrysler concept car but I can't figure out which one. The car that came to mind is called the Plymouth Falcon but that's a roadster. I would have said the Chrysler Norseman but that one went down on the Andria Doria along with the last batch of Lancia Aurelia Spiders.
Anton

#49 Wolf

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Posted 05 March 2004 - 01:54

Richard- are You sure those photos You posted are from the same car? The bottom photo is left-hand drive, whereas Jag in top photo (as well as that museum shot) seems to be right-hand drive... I'm not sure about Pedro's picture, but it could be left-hand drive too. :confused:

#50 rdrcr

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Posted 05 March 2004 - 02:01

Thanks Anton... At least someone is getting what I'm talking about :D I've been searching for what that thing is but no joy yet. (I too, think it's some sort of Chrysler concept car from the late 50's / early 60's).

Wolf, look again, that's a right-hand drive car, it just has wide sills that's all. Check the link too, it's all from the same source.