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Auto Union: mysterious history


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#51 Ren de Boer

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Posted 07 July 2004 - 18:01

Originally posted by Holger Merten
Therefore I hope that my copy would wait at home yesterday after a spectacular 1000 km race in the European Le Mans Series at the Nürburgring. [/B]


Hello Holger,

too bad, missed you there, as I didn't know you were coming... I was doing some press and translation work for the organisation and did the post-race press conference, before heading off to Austria for a feature story about the 1914 Audi Typ C Alpensieger. We did excellent shots in the mountains of the Tyrol - a beautiful car in a beautiful landscape!

But maybe we have another opportunity in Zwickau (Sept. 10/11) at the opening of the August Horch Museum?

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#52 Holger Merten

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Posted 07 July 2004 - 20:18

Ohhh René, did you spent some time in the press lounge? I saw (heard) a dutch guy and I thought, perhaps René would be there. Which would be a very, very good reason to meet echa other. Think, we have to plan some events a little bit more efficient.


Will sent you some good pictures.....


BTW: I thought, you are not any longer a "real" member of TNF, those Opel guys need every power you have to make them better, than they are?;) :blush: :(

#53 Ren de Boer

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Posted 07 July 2004 - 20:42

Originally posted by Holger Merten
BTW: I thought, you are not any longer a "real" member of TNF, those Opel guys need every power you have to make them better, than they are?;) :blush: :(


Of course I am still a "real" member of TNF, altough I don't always have that much time. And there is no necessity to make the Opel guys better than they are, as they are very good already. We just need that little bit of luck, that is so important in motor racing, too! Let's wait and see what Shanghai brings... I am going there next week, quite curious what it will be like!

#54 Doug Nye

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Posted 07 July 2004 - 21:04

Bought my copy at the estimable Chater & Scott's shop in Isleworth this lunchtime - eyes like dinner plates ever since. :love:

Sadly I did NOT take German at school (I have yet to find a good motor racing history in Latin which I did follow to O-level just in case a Roman racer should be salvaged intact I presume...) so it's hard work picking my way through with a dictionary. Regardless, the photographic content, though indifferently reproduced, is SUPERB and this is a book absolutely packed with interest....although I frankly doubt the claims that Paul and Barbara Karassik really succeeded in securing quite as many components of quite as many cars as the text appears to infer...

DCN

#55 Pavel Lifintsev

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Posted 07 July 2004 - 21:42

Originally posted by Brun
...co-production with Russia's leading motoring journalist Nikolai Alexandrow.

With all my respect to you, Brun, who claimed this? You? Maybe Peter Kirchberg in an intro to the book? Or Nikolay Alexandrov himself? The last option seems most probable to me, because what I think of Mr. Alexandrov is that he is very, very vain person. He had chosen the painful fate of the AUs in the USSR as a main point of his journalistic career and he didn't miscalculate: this allowed him to get some fame, respect and money of course. The same as for Paul Karassik. I was always far from idealising this guy, who is often pictured as ''an unselfish saviour of the AUs from Russian barbarians''. OK, partly this is truthful. Just remember, he did it not only being eager to save a (very important) part of European motorsport history, but also to benefit from it.
Back to Alexandrov. I believe during his research he really digged out some interesting facts, docs, shots and memories, so his book is truly worth and I will definitely buy it as soon as I will have enough means for it. Despite that I would like to do some remarks not in favour of Mr. Alexandrov.
First, the style of his articles is rather sensational, but only occasionally well supported with facts. (Hopefully it has nothing to do with his book.) Then, he constantly presents his research as an extraordinary life-threatening adventure, even if it was just sitting in libraries and archives or interviewing some old people. When I for the first time saw the cover of his book with the words ''Abenteuerliche Suche nach den Rennwagen der Auto Union'' under title (BTW, now they're gone!) I thought I won't wonder if he wrote inside somewhat like ''During my investigations I was closely followed by KGB''. And, finally, in the article ''Beute-Boliden'' (Oldtimer-Markt, October 2002) he claims he was deputy editor in Russian Autoshop magazine. I've got almost all (except 2-3) issues of this mag and I can say his name never appeared there neither in staff list nor among authors.

Originally posted by Brun
But he did way, way more than any Russian motoring journalist before him.

Oh yes, he apparently wants to seem the very first who revealed what happened with the Silver Arrows in the Soviet Union. The very first outside Russia – maybe. However it was all well researched years ago by Lev Shugurov – the only man, who (IMHO) could be called ''Russia's leading motoring journalist''. He supported Paul Karassik in his search for Auto Union cars and parts and since the mid-90s wrote about a half-dozen articles on AUs and Sokols in various Russian and Ukrainian magazines.

Originally posted by Brun
The author has found out that there's a more or less complete Auto Union Typ C that was smuggled back across the Ukrainian-Rumanian border somewhere around 1999 or 2000 and should currently reside in Germany... but no one knows where it is and who has it.

I heard the same rumour from the same source two years ago, but I still haven't seen no evidences. Please tell me there is something more in the book than somebody's claims, otherwise I will think it's just a canard from Mr. Alexandrov and nothing more. Actually I want to believe that somewhere in Russia still stays an abandoned shed where a couple of Silver Arrows are stored... But it's hardly possible. Some bits maybe, but no other car survived except of those we are aware of. They just had no chance... Sorry. I want to be wrong.

Originally posted by Brun
One crashed in 1946 during a Soviet race, killing a dozen spectators.

Originally posted by Racer.Demon
It's even more amazing to realize what we don't know as opposed to what we have already unearthed. What about these "Soviet races"? I'm intrigued.

It wasn't a race AFAIK, but speed record attempt. On June 9th, 1946 Leonid Sokolov, test driver of the GAZ automobile factory, drove the 1938/39 Auto Union Grand Prix car (so-called Typ D) on the public road from Gorky (now Nizhny Novgorod) to Moscow, trying to set new national speed record at a distance of 1000 m (with flying start). When he was at full speed, some spectators went on the road right in front of the car. Sokolov braked hard, the car went off the straight into a ditch, turned over several times and finally crashed into a lorry. Sokolov was pulled out and badly injured, the car was fully damaged. Twelve spectators died immediately, six more – at hospital a bit later. This was the most horrific and tragic accident occured during a motorsport event in the USSR and became one of the reasons for the resolution, that was passed on December 27th, 1948 and disallowed foreign cars in Soviet races.
(Source: interview with another GAZ test driver, Mikhail Mokeev, taken by Lev Shugurov in 1985)

Originally posted by Vitesse2
Got mine this morning .... only had a chance to look through the pictures so far, but it's a very impressive production, with some wonderful photos, not just of the Auto Unions: I think our Russian friends are going to be busy explaining some of these (if they'd be so kind ....)

SURE! If somebody would be kind enough to scan and show them to us...

Originally posted by Vitesse2
OMG! A D-type Jag! How did THAT get there? (page 126) A Mille Miglia BMW roadster?? (page 171)

Is OMG for make of the car or for ''Oh my God''? :) OK, seriously. A D-type Jag can be easily explained: it was most probably photographed in 1961, when Finnish driver Heimo Hietarinta drove one (chassis XKD530, owned by Curt Lincoln) in an international race for CAMC USSR trophies at Neva Ring in Leningrad. A BMW 328 MM? There were four of them in the Soviet Union! Unfortunately survived the only one...

Originally posted by Holger Merten
And they are not on the way to russia.
...
@ Brun 2005 will be the year to make holidays in russia!

Dear Holger, I understand you are hurt by those who destroyed these beautiful cars, but could you please write ''Russia'' instead of ''russia'' next time. Thank you in advance!

#56 Ray Bell

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Posted 07 July 2004 - 22:20

Originally posted by Doug Nye
.....Sadly I did NOT take German at school (I have yet to find a good motor racing history in Latin which I did follow to O-level just in case a Roman racer should be salvaged intact I presume...) so it's hard work picking my way through with a dictionary.....


I took German!

In a limited sort of way. Not that I would understand more than a few words...

.....Regardless, the photographic content, though indifferently reproduced, is SUPERB and this is a book absolutely packed with interest....although I frankly doubt the claims that Paul and Barbara Karassik really succeeded in securing quite as many components of quite as many cars.....


You are a right doubting Thomas, aren't you?

.....as the text appears to infer...


Douggy!

#57 Doug Nye

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Posted 08 July 2004 - 08:57

Tell it like it is Ray...tell it like it is..... remember I had the advantage of having held many of the very substantial collection of real ex-Russia bits in my hands and having examined them... :cool:

#58 Holger Merten

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Posted 08 July 2004 - 10:56

Originally posted by René de Boer


Of course I am still a "real" member of TNF, altough I don't always have that much time. And there is no necessity to make the Opel guys better than they are, as they are very good already. We just need that little bit of luck, that is so important in motor racing, too! Let's wait and see what Shanghai brings... I am going there next week, quite curious what it will be like!


You must say this. And enjoy Shanghai, nice city.

#59 Holger Merten

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Posted 08 July 2004 - 11:17

@ René

Ooooohh, what a s**** AAArrrrrrGGHNNSNGHJK :mad:


Soooo bad, I found a picture of you in the internet and I remember your face (cause I heard that you were talking dutch in the press room). You were sitting on the right site next to the entrance (white shirt). While we were sitting in the front, next to the GT-1 guys. Perhaps you remember the guy with the little girl, she is my daughter and got a press accreditation too, which makes it easier to enter the pitlane.

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#60 Holger Merten

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Posted 08 July 2004 - 11:24

@ ru

Thanks for your explanations about Nikolay Alexandrov. I must say, that I would be very careful, with him as journalist. I think he and Kirchberg, who knows a lot about the Auto Union and the GP cars, are a good team as "Keyplayer" and "Historymaker" in the investigation about the Auto Union Silverarrows.

S*x sells. And the history of the AU GP cars is more than sexy, as well as the cars are.

#61 hans stuck

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Posted 08 July 2004 - 15:05

OK, this book is apparently hard to find in the U.S., per my usual outlets, Amazon, Google, etc. Can someone give me a lead on where online I can purchase?

#62 VWV

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Posted 08 July 2004 - 15:31

Hans, I have had very good experiences ordering books from Chaters, with delivery to Canada in 7-14 days. http://www.chaters.c...ftoken=23852322 Chaters has the book for 22.50 pounds.

DEM SILBER AUF DER SPUR,DAS SCHICKSAL DER AUTO-UNION-RENNWAG
ALEXANDROW N
Published by M.B.V.(2).
Year of Publication: 2004
ISBN No: 3-613-02402-0
Our Price: £22.50

* IN STOCK *
LATEST RELEASES


I would order it myself but I have exceeded my monthly book allowance by about 400%!

#63 Alexey Rogachev

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Posted 08 July 2004 - 16:34

I have read what .ru has written, and I completely agree with him as regards Alexandrov's sensation-making, vainglorious, and even sometimes impolite pen. I haven't read the book being duscussed, but recently I found an article by Alexandrov on one of Russian web sites (published on February 21, 2002): http://www.autonet.r...nth=1&year=2002. Now, I don't have enough time to translate it, but I can say that in this article, Alexandrov alleged that Sokol F2 single-seaters hadn't existed at all! He said that they had been nothing than Auto Unions. What can I say on this nonsense? A canard, a newspaper hoax that is reckoned on making a worthless popularity to its author and to his coming book! I don't see any other explanation.

Of course, it is a mis-statement, elsewise we consequently have to admit that Lev Shugurov had knowingly deceived the readers of his numerous articles on Sokols and Auto Unions; then we have to admit that there hadn't been any regulation issued in December 1948, or two cars that raced in 1952 on Minsk highway had been entered the race in defiance of this regulation - you remember, Alexandrov thinks they were Auto Unions, not Sokols! And so on...

In my opinion, such canards are unworthy of a real journalist and historian...

#64 Vitesse2

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Posted 08 July 2004 - 17:12

Originally posted by hans stuck
OK, this book is apparently hard to find in the U.S., per my usual outlets, Amazon, Google, etc. Can someone give me a lead on where online I can purchase?

I ordered mine from www.amazon.de. The site works in exactly the same way as the English-language Amazons and is easy to navigate - you can use your login from other Amazon sites to import your account information, so it's simplicity itself. Price was quite a bit lower than VWV quoted.

#65 hans stuck

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Posted 08 July 2004 - 17:34

Thanks VWV & Vitesse2! I went with Amazon, for the simplicity. Appreciate the help. :drunk:

#66 Brun

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Posted 08 July 2004 - 21:05

Originally posted by .ru

With all my respect to you, Brun, who claimed this? You? Maybe Peter Kirchberg in an intro to the book? Or Nikolay Alexandrov himself? The last option seems most probable to me, because what I think of Mr. Alexandrov is that he is very, very vain person.

.ru, I must apologise, the claim is entirely mine. Somehow I assumed Alexandrov to be a very well-known man in the (Russian) field. But I now realise that he is the only Russian motoring journalist from whom I've read articles :blush: so my claim was a little far-fetched.

Oh yes, he apparently wants to seem the very first who revealed what happened with the Silver Arrows in the Soviet Union. The very first outside Russia – maybe. However it was all well researched years ago by Lev Shugurov – the only man, who (IMHO) could be called ''Russia's leading motoring journalist''. He supported Paul Karassik in his search for Auto Union cars and parts and since the mid-90s wrote about a half-dozen articles on AUs and Sokols in various Russian and Ukrainian magazines.

Well, I'm sure I speak for everyone here if I say we would all DIE of sheer JOY if you could translate some of those articles for us and post them here. Apart from Alexandrovs book and article in Oldtimer Markt, we've never seen any substantial inside information in this part of the world about the Russian history of Auto Union.

I heard the same rumour from the same source two years ago, but I still haven't seen no evidences. Please tell me there is something more in the book than somebody's claims, otherwise I will think it's just a canard from Mr. Alexandrov and nothing more. Actually I want to believe that somewhere in Russia still stays an abandoned shed where a couple of Silver Arrows are stored... But it's hardly possible. Some bits maybe, but no other car survived except of those we are aware of. They just had no chance... Sorry. I want to be wrong.

Nothing more, that's what got me excited in the first place - I have never heard the story before and couldn't find anything else about it in the book.

It wasn't a race AFAIK, but speed record attempt. On June 9th, 1946 Leonid Sokolov, test driver of the GAZ automobile factory, drove the 1938/39 Auto Union Grand Prix car (so-called Typ D) on the public road from Gorky (now Nizhny Novgorod) to Moscow, trying to set new national speed record at a distance of 1000 m (with flying start). When he was at full speed, some spectators went on the road right in front of the car. Sokolov braked hard, the car went off the straight into a ditch, turned over several times and finally crashed into a lorry. Sokolov was pulled out and badly injured, the car was fully damaged. Twelve spectators died immediately, six more – at hospital a bit later. This was the most horrific and tragic accident occured during a motorsport event in the USSR and became one of the reasons for the resolution, that was passed on December 27th, 1948 and disallowed foreign cars in Soviet races.
(Source: interview with another GAZ test driver, Mikhail Mokeev, taken by Lev Shugurov in 1985)

Ah, that's what the book told us, too.

Thank you for giving some inside views on mr. Alexandrov, .ru. Like I said: this forum could really use some more Russian input on the matter...

As for the Sokol/Awtowelo, I am inclined to believe that a quite accurate written history on those cars is on http://8w.forix.com :lol:

#67 Brun

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Posted 08 July 2004 - 21:10

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Bought my copy at the estimable Chater & Scott's shop in Isleworth this lunchtime - eyes like dinner plates ever since. :love:

Sadly I did NOT take German at school (I have yet to find a good motor racing history in Latin which I did follow to O-level just in case a Roman racer should be salvaged intact I presume...) so it's hard work picking my way through with a dictionary. Regardless, the photographic content, though indifferently reproduced, is SUPERB and this is a book absolutely packed with interest....although I frankly doubt the claims that Paul and Barbara Karassik really succeeded in securing quite as many components of quite as many cars as the text appears to infer...

DCN


And I assume you saw the pictures of the Awtowelo being test-driven on the autobahn, with the signs in Russian writing in the background? Mr. Beyer showed the originals to me when I interviewed him last summer, but I didn't have a scanner with me to copy them :cry: :( luckily, they've now been reprinted in this book.

#68 Pavel Lifintsev

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Posted 09 July 2004 - 13:25

Originally posted by Brun
Well, I'm sure I speak for everyone here if I say we would all DIE of sheer JOY if you could translate some of those articles for us and post them here.

I think Nikolay Alexandrov did it pretty good. He also updated and revised all the info with some new data he found out during his research. That's why I wish I had his book too.

#69 Michael Müller

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Posted 09 July 2004 - 16:06

Originally posted by Holger Merten
:cry: :mad: :cry: :mad: :cry: :mad: :cry: :mad: :cry:

I want my copy too.

Must ask heaven, what I have done, that I'm forgotten?

Holger, first the paying customers are supplied, the free-of-charge press specimens have to wait...
:lol:

#70 Holger Merten

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Posted 10 July 2004 - 07:23

That's new, Michael, :eek: but as always you know always a little bit more, perhaps I should believe that.  ;)

I'll try harder. :p

If there will be no book ob monday, Amazon would help me.

#71 Peter Morley

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Posted 13 July 2004 - 10:42

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Tell it like it is Ray...tell it like it is..... remember I had the advantage of having held many of the very substantial collection of real ex-Russia bits in my hands and having examined them... :cool:


I can back up this observation, but Doug's word is worth roughly a million times my own so needs no reinforcement anyway.............

Having just read the table in question I'm surprised that the Kurassik's only 'restored' 2 cars, seemingly they had:

Engine from C-type 76011
Engine from D-type 760??
Engine, body & chassis from C-type 76019 (engine prior to the rest of the car)
Everything from C-type 760??
Engine from C-type 760??

Were these additional engines used as the basis for Audi's replicas? No one has suggested that!

And as for the others:

C type record car went form Belorus to Germany, where is it now?

And a C-type was illegally removed from Rumania in 1999, where is that now?

#72 Vitesse2

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Posted 13 July 2004 - 13:14

Originally posted by Peter Morley

C type record car went form Belorus to Germany, where is it now?

And a C-type was illegally removed from Rumania in 1999, where is that now?


I think you've misread the table, Peter. The record car went to Kharkhov in 1950 or thereabouts and became the Kharkhov-2. This was dismantled in 1953 - it's not clear what happened to the chassis and bodywork, but the engine was retained: so it's actually the engine which is allegedly in Germany.

#73 Jonas

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Posted 13 July 2004 - 20:29

I've now read the book and would like to add to the positive comments about the book! It was defenitely good reading! Incredibly frustrating to learn how the cars and parts were sold off to (or knicked by!) personel and others, though..

But a question arised (well, one of many..) :
Kirschber claims in the beginning of the book that the AU's were numbered 76001 to 76019. A number higher than 76019 was never produced. Of these were (as per Kirschberg) numbers 76001 to 76009 all cars belonging to the 750 kg formula. All well so far!
But in the table at the end 76011, 76017, 76018 and 76019 are all described as Typ C's! Is this a typo? I could perhaps accept one or two of these "late" chassis numbers to be 16-cyl. cars if they are the hillclimb type of car that was made in '38 or '39 (one of which was found in Riga). And being a 16-cyl. car it could be passed off as a Typ C. But there were not four of these!

I do find it odd that so many of the cars in the table are described as Typ C's!

#74 Alexey Rogachev

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Posted 14 July 2004 - 09:09

Originally posted by Vitesse2
The record car went to Kharkhov in 1950 or thereabouts and became the Kharkhov-2.

Kharkov 2 was obviously built greatly under AU unfluence, but it was totally original car designed and built by Vladimir Nikitin. If it had been an Auto Union, the speeds that Kharkov 2 had shown would have been much more fast...

Well, it seems to me that Nikolay Alexandrov has decided that there weren't any Soviet record cars in the USSR in the early 50s, but Auto Unions only... :rolleyes: A new canard, I think... :

#75 Audi quattro

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Posted 17 July 2004 - 20:38

Having just read the table in question I'm surprised that the Kurassik's only 'restored' 2 cars, seemingly they had:





Can anyone tell me how Karassik could have restored 2 Auto Union Type D cars with only an engine form a D-Type and many C-Type parts?

I have read that the Karassik Auto Union D-Type is Chassis number 19 with engine number 11 as a 1938 car. And chassis number 21 with engine number 37 (H.P. Müller’s winning car of the GP of France 1939).

I still did not read Alexandrows book, and I am ashamed for it.
:blush:

#76 Holger Merten

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Posted 21 July 2004 - 07:30

Originally posted by Michael Müller

Holger, first the paying customers are supplied, the free-of-charge press specimens have to wait...
:lol:


Okay, I couldn’t wait fo the book, perhaps they forgot me. Therefore I bought the book on monday. But I'm not satisfied. What is the book about? A lot of the Russian car industry and some rumours about the Auto Union Silverarrows and their history in Russia! The only thing which is very well described, is the history about the Sokol in GDR and Russia(by Kirchberg). That’s all. So next time I will wait until my free of charge issue will arrive at home. Than every book has the chance to be a big surprise.

#77 Brun

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Posted 21 July 2004 - 10:46

Originally posted by Jonas
I've now read the book and would like to add to the positive comments about the book! It was defenitely good reading! Incredibly frustrating to learn how the cars and parts were sold off to (or knicked by!) personel and others, though..

But a question arised (well, one of many..) :
Kirschber claims in the beginning of the book that the AU's were numbered 76001 to 76019. A number higher than 76019 was never produced. Of these were (as per Kirschberg) numbers 76001 to 76009 all cars belonging to the 750 kg formula. All well so far!
But in the table at the end 76011, 76017, 76018 and 76019 are all described as Typ C's! Is this a typo? I could perhaps accept one or two of these "late" chassis numbers to be 16-cyl. cars if they are the hillclimb type of car that was made in '38 or '39 (one of which was found in Riga). And being a 16-cyl. car it could be passed off as a Typ C. But there were not four of these!

I do find it odd that so many of the cars in the table are described as Typ C's!


Well, here is were Alexandrow errors. From the book, it is unclear if he refers to chassis numbers or engines. If it is the latter, 76011, 76018 and 76019 are definately Typ D engines, as we've established in this thread .

The hillclimber from Riga also isn't number 76018, but carries number 25... as can be seen in the museum in Ingolstadt (the small plate sais 'No 25 GEW 19', not sure what the 19-number stands for):
Posted Image

I'm a little surprised that Kirchberg didn't correct this, he has the real thing right in front of his office in the Audi building...

#78 Holger Merten

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Posted 21 July 2004 - 10:56

How should Kirchberg correct that: nobody in Ingolstadt knows what that plate stands for. It was a great discussion during the restauration of the car, what should happen to that plate. At the end, it was decided to leave the plate where it is.

#79 Alexey Rogachev

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Posted 28 July 2004 - 08:33

A question to everyone: are there any web-sites where the AU streamliners detailed technical data can be found?

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#80 aldo

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Posted 29 July 2004 - 10:46

Some data and figures on the AU Stromlinienwagen are in my article on Rosemeyer's January 28, 1938 fatal accident. Pls. go to:
www.kolumbus.fi/leif.snellman/zana.htm

#81 Alexey Rogachev

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Posted 29 July 2004 - 12:54

Thank you, Aldo, very useful info! :clap:

#82 Doug Nye

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Posted 29 July 2004 - 22:19

Aldo - congratulations on what at first read comes across as a formidable piece of work.

DCN

#83 Gary C

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Posted 30 July 2004 - 22:58

.......................is everyting OK with you, Doug ??

#84 Doug Nye

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Posted 02 November 2004 - 17:59

Have any of our Auto Union specialists ever noticed pre-war reference to a V16-cylinder 'show car' having been produced and displayed by the company?

We know of the V12 car which was prepared for display and showroom use....but does anyone recall contemporary pre-war reference to a V16 non-runner prepared for similar purposes???

And no, this isn't involved with either DCN auction sale research, nor book research, nor magazine article research, it's just that there is a story emerging centred upon such a possibility... and it rings no bells with me...

DCN

#85 duby

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Posted 02 November 2004 - 19:06

...and to go with what Doug Nye wrote , i was 2 weeks ago at the Donington Collection and there was Auto-Union car standing .
is there any details about this car , as there was no one that can answer me this at the museum...


thanks

#86 VWV

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Posted 02 November 2004 - 19:32

I'm a little confused. I thought that the V16 C-type in the Deutsche Museum was a show car and the V12 D-type with a dummy engine, that was found in Prauge was a show car at a Auto Union dealership. Are you saying that another car has shown up?

As listed in 8W http://8w.forix.com/au-lineup.html Are you saying that this list is out of date, hopefully?

Just how many Auto Unions exist today? And what’s their history? A quick line-up.


Original cars with racing history
Typ C/D Bergrennwagen 1938-1939. It is in fact the only car that took part in pre-war racing and stayed more or less in one piece until today. Came from a museum in Riga, Letvia, now in the Audi Museum Mobile Ingolstadt.


Original cars without racing history
Typ D 1938, which Karassik found in Russia. Now owned by Audi Tradition.
Typ D 1939, also Karassik, now apparently sold to a mysterious owner in Great Britain. Both cars were in fact a large heap of parts. Crosthwaithe & Gardiner (C&G) built two Typ Ds out of them.
Typ D 1938. A display car that came out of Prague, Czechoslovakia. Czech race driver Pohl sold it to Hubertus Count Donhoff, who then sold it to Kerry Payne. In it is a V12 engine that German collector Martin Schröder smuggled out of Leipzig. Colin Crabbe rebuilt the car. It was sold by Christies at Pebble Beach 1990 and now resides somewhere in a warehouse near Frankfurt. I believe its present owner is from Asia.
Typ C, 1936-1937, a display car that survived the war as an exhibit piece in the Deutsches Museum in Munich.


Replicas
Typ C 1937, Stromlinienwagen, built by C&G, now on permanent display in the Audi Museum Mobile in Ingolstadt
Typ C 1936-1937, a replica from C&G, now in the hands of Audi Tradition, Ingolstadt.
Typ C 1936-1937, a replica from C&G, now in the hands of Autostadt in Wolfsburg.
Typ C/D Bergwagen. 1938-1939, a replica of the original, in the Latvian museum in Riga.
Typ D 1939, by C&G, now in the hands of Audi Tradition, Ingolstadt.
Typ A 1934, by C&G, now in the hands of D'Ieteren Frères, Bruxelles.


Replicas being built
Typ A 1934, by C&G, for Audi Tradition, Ingolstadt.
Typ C 1936-1937, by an unknown workshop in Brisbane, Australia, from original plans, don’t know who ordered and payed for this car.


Cars thought to be Auto Unions, but (perhaps) are not
1933/34 P-Wagen, by Terry Wright, now in Scotland and on sale. Very likely a fake, but strangely enough with some genuine parts that no-one knows where they came from.
1940 Typ E, now known to be an Awtowelo Typ 650 ‘Sokol’ from around 1950. In the Donington Collection.
1940 Typ E, now known to be an Awtowelo Typ 650 ‘Sokol’ from around 1950. Partially scrapped, now in the hands of the Dresden Technical Museum.


Known leftover bits
V16 engine, original from 1934 or 1935, on display in the August Horch museum in Zwickau, a gift from the Dresden Technical Museum.
V16 engine, original, used to be in the hands of the Motorradmuseum Augustusburg near Chemnitz. Stolen and present location unknown.
V12 engine, from the Typ D that came out of Prague. Smuggled into the GDR and stoned-in in the basement of a Leipzig apartment building.

#87 Tim Murray

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Posted 02 November 2004 - 19:39

Originally posted by duby
...and to go with what Doug Nye wrote , i was 2 weeks ago at the Donington Collection and there was Auto-Union car standing .
is there any details about this car , as there was no one that can answer me this at the museum...


thanks

Duby, the main thread on this car is one of the most interesting TNF threads ever (IMHO). Enjoy . . .

http://forums.atlasf...ht=Auto Union E

#88 Doug Nye

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Posted 02 November 2004 - 21:19

Well - the Deutsches Museum display car was converted into a runner for Audi - and now there's another supposed pre-war display car being converted into a runner...as well. In my post above I should have emphasised 'another' pre-war V16 show car other than the celebrated Deutsches Museum machine.... My fault, sorry pardon.

DCN

#89 dolomite

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Posted 02 November 2004 - 22:27

Could it be this one, Doug?

Posted Image

Here's the question I asked about this photo in one of the previous A-U threads:

A very poor quality copy of this photo appears in the 1980 Motor Sport article about the Audi restoration of the Deutsches Museum C-Type, obviously in the belief that this is the original show chassis that formed the basis for that restoration. However, I have another better version of the same picture, published in the 1944 Earl Howe book 'Motor Racing', and this clearly shows that this an early type A-U chassis with leaf spring rear suspension. So this is either a different, earlier show chassis, or a chassis that was subsequently built up as a race car. Anybody care to shed more light?



#90 Vitesse2

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Posted 02 November 2004 - 23:27

As the caption says "original Auto Union chassis", it must be either the original P-Wagen or one of the 1934 GP cars, which did have leaf-spring suspension, but which were modified for 1935. I think it's highly unlikely that AU would have had either the time, inclination or money to have built a show car in 1934.

Can one ask the engine capacity of this V16 Doug?;)

Could this have something to do with the mysterious alleged C-type which Alexandrov says was spirited out of Romania?

#91 dretceterini

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Posted 03 November 2004 - 01:02

Could it be that a former poster here on Atlas, who has now been banned, is involved somehow with these "real" cars that keep popping up?? :rolleyes:

#92 Doug Nye

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Posted 03 November 2004 - 08:38

Stu - how is it you seem to know 'former posters who have now been banned'???? I know I don't pay adequate attention but such intelligence always escapes me. Who he?

Vitesse - oh 6-litres, that's the only Gold Seal size available right now...  ;)

DCN

#93 Holger Merten

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Posted 03 November 2004 - 10:39

Originally posted by VWV
I'm a little confused. I thought that the V16 C-type in the Deutsche Museum was a show car and the V12 D-type with a dummy engine, that was found in Prauge was a show car at a Auto Union dealership. Are you saying that another car has shown up?

As listed in 8W http://8w.forix.com/au-lineup.html Are you saying that this list is out of date, hopefully?

Just how many Auto Unions exist today? And what’s their history? A quick line-up.


Original cars with racing history
Typ C/D Bergrennwagen 1938-1939. It is in fact the only car that took part in pre-war racing and stayed more or less in one piece until today. Came from a museum in Riga, Letvia, now in the Audi Museum Mobile Ingolstadt.


Original cars without racing history
Typ D 1938, which Karassik found in Russia. Now owned by Audi Tradition.
Typ D 1939, also Karassik, now apparently sold to a mysterious owner in Great Britain. Both cars were in fact a large heap of parts. Crosthwaithe & Gardiner (C&G) built two Typ Ds out of them.
Typ D 1938. A display car that came out of Prague, Czechoslovakia. Czech race driver Pohl sold it to Hubertus Count Donhoff, who then sold it to Kerry Payne. In it is a V12 engine that German collector Martin Schröder smuggled out of Leipzig. Colin Crabbe rebuilt the car. It was sold by Christies at Pebble Beach 1990 and now resides somewhere in a warehouse near Frankfurt. I believe its present owner is from Asia.
Typ C, 1936-1937, a display car that survived the war as an exhibit piece in the Deutsches Museum in Munich.


Replicas
Typ C 1937, Stromlinienwagen, built by C&G, now on permanent display in the Audi Museum Mobile in Ingolstadt
Typ C 1936-1937, a replica from C&G, now in the hands of Audi Tradition, Ingolstadt.
Typ C 1936-1937, a replica from C&G, now in the hands of Autostadt in Wolfsburg.
Typ C/D Bergwagen. 1938-1939, a replica of the original, in the Latvian museum in Riga.
Typ D 1939, by C&G, now in the hands of Audi Tradition, Ingolstadt.
Typ A 1934, by C&G, now in the hands of D'Ieteren Frères, Bruxelles.


Replicas being built
Typ A 1934, by C&G, for Audi Tradition, Ingolstadt.
Typ C 1936-1937, by an unknown workshop in Brisbane, Australia, from original plans, don’t know who ordered and payed for this car.


Cars thought to be Auto Unions, but (perhaps) are not
1933/34 P-Wagen, by Terry Wright, now in Scotland and on sale. Very likely a fake, but strangely enough with some genuine parts that no-one knows where they came from.
1940 Typ E, now known to be an Awtowelo Typ 650 ‘Sokol’ from around 1950. In the Donington Collection.
1940 Typ E, now known to be an Awtowelo Typ 650 ‘Sokol’ from around 1950. Partially scrapped, now in the hands of the Dresden Technical Museum.


Known leftover bits
V16 engine, original from 1934 or 1935, on display in the August Horch museum in Zwickau, a gift from the Dresden Technical Museum.
V16 engine, original, used to be in the hands of the Motorradmuseum Augustusburg near Chemnitz. Stolen and present location unknown.
V12 engine, from the Typ D that came out of Prague. Smuggled into the GDR and stoned-in in the basement of a Leipzig apartment building.


Totally correct, this scedule contains all the information I collected over the past 20 years. One fault: the replica Typ A for the Audi Tradition doesn't exist. Audi doesn't own a Typ A Replica, there was only built one for d'Iteren. Although there were rumours Audi wanted to get one too.

#94 Brun

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Posted 03 November 2004 - 15:17

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Have any of our Auto Union specialists ever noticed pre-war reference to a V16-cylinder 'show car' having been produced and displayed by the company?

We know of the V12 car which was prepared for display and showroom use....but does anyone recall contemporary pre-war reference to a V16 non-runner prepared for similar purposes???

And no, this isn't involved with either DCN auction sale research, nor book research, nor magazine article research, it's just that there is a story emerging centred upon such a possibility... and it rings no bells with me...

DCN


The Typ C's were often on display at motor shows. I also have a picture somewhere with one standing as a show model in Auto Union's headoffice in Chemnitz. But I've always assumed they were real cars, not specially-built show cars.

#95 Brun

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Posted 03 November 2004 - 15:26

Originally posted by Holger Merten


Totally correct, this scedule contains all the information I collected over the past 20 years. One fault: the replica Typ A for the Audi Tradition doesn't exist. Audi doesn't own a Typ A Replica, there was only built one for d'Iteren. Although there were rumours Audi wanted to get one too.



Really? But september last year Audi told you they had also ordered a Typ A from C&G?