Jump to content


Photo

Experiments: weird, bizarre, useless, etc...


  • Please log in to reply
175 replies to this topic

#101 aerogi

aerogi
  • Member

  • 103 posts
  • Joined: March 04

Posted 18 March 2004 - 19:17

Brabham BT44B

This was an experiment during the practice sessions of the Grand Prix of France 1975. I don't know the function of this bizarre feature, it might be an experiment for if it would rain? Because often visibility is zero when there is water on the track because water gets in the air because of the tyres? Just a wild guess here. In the book where I got it from, there is no information given (Grand Prix 1975 by Ulrich Schwab).

Posted Image

Advertisement

#102 Kojima_KE007

Kojima_KE007
  • Member

  • 115 posts
  • Joined: October 03

Posted 18 March 2004 - 21:42

Originally posted by aerogi
Brabham BT44B

This was an experiment during the practice sessions of the Grand Prix of France 1975. I don't know the function of this bizarre feature, it might be an experiment for if it would rain? Because often visibility is zero when there is water on the track because water gets in the air because of the tyres? Just a wild guess here. In the book where I got it from, there is no information given (Grand Prix 1975 by Ulrich Schwab).


Or, could it be a device to reduce drag created from the rolling tyres rather than to create less water spray?

#103 Reyna

Reyna
  • Member

  • 630 posts
  • Joined: March 02

Posted 18 March 2004 - 22:26

1.974, the Elf2 Formula 2. No comment !!!

Posted Image
© DPPI




Rafa

#104 Wolf

Wolf
  • Member

  • 7,881 posts
  • Joined: June 00

Posted 18 March 2004 - 23:27

I don't get this Elf way of thinking... :confused: I understand airflow might be cleaner back there, but with leverage this big it must have severely compromized front end grip.

#105 Coogar

Coogar
  • Member

  • 139 posts
  • Joined: November 03

Posted 18 March 2004 - 23:42

Looks almost like a UK hill climber ?

#106 p de vos

p de vos
  • New Member

  • 29 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 19 March 2004 - 07:23

And the go-kart sized AVS Shadow (the very first one, with 10" wheels and the radiators on either side of the rear wheels - and a 7 litre V8 engine). I think Follmer and later Elford must have been the bravest of brave drivers to drive this mini monster.

#107 Reyna

Reyna
  • Member

  • 630 posts
  • Joined: March 02

Posted 19 March 2004 - 07:58

Originally posted by bertocchi
SomeBODYs gotta post a pic of the Chaparral 2H with the...'Surtees Wing.'
Dear Lord.


Posted Image
1.969, the Chaparral 2H at Laguna Seca
© Unknown





Posted Image
1.969, the first AVS-Shadow
(1969 Road&Track magazine cover)




Posted Image
1.969, the first test.
(1969 Autosprint magazine)



Rafa

#108 Paolo

Paolo
  • Member

  • 1,673 posts
  • Joined: May 00

Posted 19 March 2004 - 09:31

Originally posted by Reyna



Posted Image
1.969, the first AVS-Shadow
(1969 Road&Track magazine cover)



Rafa


Heyyy, the BFG9000 Mega Laser Blaster on top is cool....

Why it never dawned on me one could just disintegrate opponents instead of overtaking them...

#109 Paolo

Paolo
  • Member

  • 1,673 posts
  • Joined: May 00

Posted 19 March 2004 - 09:36

Since we've been talking Pininfarina, maybe this (sob) neglected thread about Pinifarina ZAZ might be of interest.

http://forums.atlasf...zaz pininfarina

Now, I wonder... were the Sigma or the ZAZ ever tested on a circuit ?

#110 Nanni Dietrich

Nanni Dietrich
  • Member

  • 1,233 posts
  • Joined: February 04

Posted 19 March 2004 - 11:01

Originally posted by p de vos
And the go-kart sized AVS Shadow (the very first one, with 10" wheels and the radiators on either side of the rear wheels - and a 7 litre V8 engine). I think Follmer and later Elford must have been the bravest of brave drivers to drive this mini monster.


:up: :cool:

Is that bearded giant :lol: Mr. Don Nichols?

I recall George Follmer driving the red AVS-Shadow in 1969 (1970?) Can-Am, but Vic Elford had a black one in 1970 Can-Am... it was black, small, with a big wing and a big logo SHADOW...

#111 Reyna

Reyna
  • Member

  • 630 posts
  • Joined: March 02

Posted 19 March 2004 - 11:20

Originally posted by Nanni Dietrich
I recall George Follmer driving the red AVS-Shadow in 1969 (1970?) Can-Am, but Vic Elford had a black one in 1970 Can-Am... it was black, small, with a big wing and a big logo SHADOW...

This one ?

Posted Image
© Unknown



Rafa

#112 Paolo

Paolo
  • Member

  • 1,673 posts
  • Joined: May 00

Posted 19 March 2004 - 11:39

Originally posted by Reyna

This one ?

[


Please, someone tell me the thing was overheating, with radiators in that position, just aft the rear tyres. Or I'll have to go back learning aero from scratch.

#113 Nanni Dietrich

Nanni Dietrich
  • Member

  • 1,233 posts
  • Joined: February 04

Posted 19 March 2004 - 12:02

Originally posted by Reyna

This one ?



Rafa



:up:
:eek: :eek: :eek:


Interesting for my favourite multi-purpose driver
http://forums.atlasf...&threadid=66137
:smoking:



Originally posted by p de vos
And the go-kart sized AVS Shadow (the very first one, with 10" wheels and the radiators on either side of the rear wheels - and a 7 litre V8 engine). I think Follmer and later Elford must have been the bravest of brave drivers to drive this mini monster.

YES!

Can-Am 1970, Mid-Ohio circuit: Vic Elford started 7. with this monster, and retired for unbalanced wheel :rolleyes: His best time in practice was 1'31,4 and Denny in pole-position 1'27,6 not so far I think... for this incredible monster!!!

#114 Manfred Cubenoggin

Manfred Cubenoggin
  • Member

  • 770 posts
  • Joined: October 02

Posted 19 March 2004 - 12:26

What a shame that the original Shadow failed to live up to expectations. It was, IMO, simply brilliant but something was lost in the translation, I guess.

For the 1970 CanAm season opener at Mosport, my buddy, Nick, and I went up to the track every day from the Monday prior in hopes of seeing some pre-race testing and were especially looking forward to seeing the new Shadow. Day after day, baking in the hot sun and nothing showed. Finally for official practice and qualifying, the Shadow did appear but we were heartilly disppointed with the debut appearance as it was now sporting all manner of bits sticking out into the airstream and only faintly resembling the original pix in Road & Track. But it was facsinating nonetheless.

#115 aerogi

aerogi
  • Member

  • 103 posts
  • Joined: March 04

Posted 19 March 2004 - 15:02

In reply to Reyna's post, here's a few more of the AVS-Shadow:

The first picture shows George Follmer at Saint-Jovite.
The second picture shows a slightly changed car (like in Reyna's post), this time with Vic Elford at the wheel at Mid-Ohio.

Source and credits: L'année automobile 1970-1971 (French annual)

Posted Image

Posted Image

And during the 1970 season, there was another strange appearance: the famous Chaparral 2 J, which used the same technique as the later Brabham fan car of 1978...

The Chaparral 2 J was a very famous CanAm racing car. It was the revelation of the race at Watkins Glen, raced by J. Stewart! It recorded the fastest lap until he had to withdraw from the race because of brake problems.

The first 3 pictures are from the race at Watkins Glen. The fourth is taken from Road Atlanta.

Source and credits: L'année automobile 1970-1971 (French annual)

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Enjoy!

#116 blewgo

blewgo
  • New Member

  • 12 posts
  • Joined: January 04

Posted 20 March 2004 - 17:12

Here are a couple of different rear wing configurations used by Ferrari in practice at Long Beach in 1979.

Posted Image

Posted Image

#117 Marcel Visbeen

Marcel Visbeen
  • Member

  • 237 posts
  • Joined: July 03

Posted 20 March 2004 - 17:52

Originally posted by Wolf
Marcel, I think this is what You're thinking of:

Posted Image


With excuses for my slow reaction, Wolf, but this was exactly what I was thinking of. Although I wasn't aware of the fact that the Nardi is apparently still around and running!
The only picture I have is from the paddock at Le Mans in '55, where they made a hole between the booms, which was supposed to be the obligatory 'passenger space' !

#118 Frank S

Frank S
  • Member

  • 2,155 posts
  • Joined: September 02

Posted 20 March 2004 - 19:31

Debating whether to post here or in this thread...

The unidentified car in Number Four is a Gemini, one of only two built.
Posted Image

It was most advanced for its (1961 or '62) time, with inboard disc brakes front and rear. The weird, bizarre, useless part is the exaggerated nostril-effect intakes, which did not work, as somehow the cooling air just didn't enter and do its job.

A little later this car ran at Willow Springs, with a standup-tall wing. The wing was self-trimming at speed, with valve springs compressed by aerodynamic loads. The wing and other innovations were the work of Fred Puhn, whose monocoque wheels first appeared (maybe) on this car.

The driver is Chuck McCarty, the pictures at Pomona (Los Angeles County Fairground).


Frank S

#119 Felipe Senna

Felipe Senna
  • New Member

  • 12 posts
  • Joined: January 03

Posted 20 March 2004 - 23:12

Posted Image
The " Carcará" one brazilian project.

Posted Image
one more brazilian

Advertisement

#120 panzani

panzani
  • Member

  • 17,845 posts
  • Joined: September 03

Posted 21 March 2004 - 03:18

Other images of the very interesting "Carcará" can be found in this page: http://www.obvio.ind.....bsoluto !.htm

Thanks for the memories Felipe!

#121 Buford

Buford
  • Member

  • 11,173 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 21 March 2004 - 04:06

Originally posted by Nanni Dietrich


They invented the half-slick tyres... :lol:


Indy 500 is an incredible source of ideas.
I recall cars built only for left-bend, with different tyres and suspensions on right and left.


Wow!!! My favorite race car of my youth. The car I modeled my Pinewood Derby car after in Cub Scouts.

#122 gdecarli

gdecarli
  • Member

  • 1,038 posts
  • Joined: June 03

Posted 23 March 2004 - 14:30

I know some modern 6 wheels racing cars like Tyrrell, March and Williams, but I never heard (before yesterday) about Rondeau M579 (click to enlarge) :

Posted Image

This pic came from Autosprint #4/1978 (page 40), dated January 1978. It says that this is an advanced project, supposed to be ready to race at Le Mans on following year, 1979.
It should have had Cosworth DFX Turbo engine (2142 cc).
Do anybody know anything more about?

Ciao,
Guido

(I post this pic also on 6 wheel f1 car, 2 front 4 at the rear thread)

#123 gdecarli

gdecarli
  • Member

  • 1,038 posts
  • Joined: June 03

Posted 23 March 2004 - 15:03

Another F.1 bizarre car: Ferrari 126 C2 used at Long Beach 1982 by Gilles Villeneuve.

Unfortunately I have no photos, I could find only a 1:43 model but it's god enough to understand what I'm talking about:

Posted Image
(from Alpimodel official website)

Villeneuve arrived 3rd, but he was disqualified as this strange rear wing was considered illegal.

Ciao,
Guido

#124 Manson

Manson
  • Member

  • 2,064 posts
  • Joined: October 00

Posted 23 March 2004 - 17:44

Originally posted by Paolo


About the front wing on the 1978 Wildcat of Gordon Johncock, as posted by Gigleux, it should be said that this kind of arrangement has often been tried on full width nosed single seaters, and with sports cars.

Of all places, Indy is the last where I would have thought of seeing it. Was it just an experiment, or did it actually race ?


Jockcock was leading comfortably in 77 with this car is STP livery, lost the motor around lap 180. Finished 3rd in 78 with the pictured car.

#125 Paolo

Paolo
  • Member

  • 1,673 posts
  • Joined: May 00

Posted 23 March 2004 - 18:24

Originally posted by Manson


Jockcock was leading comfortably in 77 with this car is STP livery, lost the motor around lap 180. Finished 3rd in 78 with the pictured car.


Never say never...
Live and learn..

Etc.

#126 Paolo

Paolo
  • Member

  • 1,673 posts
  • Joined: May 00

Posted 23 March 2004 - 18:29

Originally posted by gdecarli
Another F.1 bizarre car: Ferrari 126 C2 used at Long Beach 1982 by Gilles Villeneuve.

Unfortunately I have no photos, I could find only a 1:43 model but it's god enough to understand what I'm talking about:

Posted Image
(from Alpimodel official website)

Villeneuve arrived 3rd, but he was disqualified as this strange rear wing was considered illegal.

Ciao,
Guido


Discussed also in Tech forum :

http://forums.atlasf...&highlight=wing

#127 anjakub

anjakub
  • Member

  • 606 posts
  • Joined: October 01

Posted 29 March 2004 - 17:18

Here are two more oddities, but only project:

Piero Taruffi's racing car:
http://l2.espacenet.... 2608264A1 I

Aerodynamic wing for racing car by Robert D. Green:
http://l2.espacenet.... 3512825A1 I

#128 Pavel Lifintsev

Pavel Lifintsev
  • Member

  • 143 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 30 March 2004 - 02:25

Originally posted by gdecarli
Ferrari 126 C2 used at Long Beach 1982 by Gilles Villeneuve.

Unfortunately I have no photos...


I have some! (Click on thumbnails to see larger photos.)

Posted Image
© Rainer W. Schlegelmilch, ''Ferrari F1" (Berlin, 2002).

Posted Image
Long live rally driving style! © N/a

Posted Image
Gilles closely followed by Keke Rosberg in his 'ordinary' Williams FW07C-Cosworth. © N/a

Posted Image
Why everyone is thinking only Gilles used this wing? © N/a

Some words about the story behind the double rear wing:
It was in summer 1981 when Harvey Postlethwaite became Scuderia Ferrari chef designer after Mauro Forghieri had been demoted to a head of engines department. He got very upset with the fact that Italian cars will be now developed by the Englishman (BTW first non-Italian since 1947!) and angry because of that trick with 'brakes-cooling water' widely used by several British teams. FISA and FOCA were involved in battle for power and authorities and (still) closed their eyes to this, so Forghieri thought he could read technical regulations between the lines too. Dr. P at that time was busy with the carbon monocoques technology and Forghieri got chance to show his designer's talent once again. Unfortunately it was wrong time...

Gilles later said: "These wings aren't necessarily more efficient than normal." So was Forghieri's invention useless? I believe it wasn't. IMHO he proved that even on such conditions he stayed great designer always being able to create something new. As to Villeneuve... Guys, did he really need all those wings to drive fast?!

#129 Mihai

Mihai
  • Member

  • 170 posts
  • Joined: January 04

Posted 17 November 2006 - 23:10

World's first 'weed front wing' made using an advanced technology that produces bio-degradable racecar parts: :lol:

Posted Image

French driver Vasilije Calasan in Brit F3 (2004).

#130 D-Type

D-Type
  • Member

  • 7,903 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 17 November 2006 - 23:25

:up: :) :D :lol: :rotfl:

#131 Graham Clayton

Graham Clayton
  • Member

  • 1,044 posts
  • Joined: January 01

Posted 27 July 2012 - 06:10

I stumbled across the following webpage and thought that it might be of interest in this thread.
While I am aware of attempts to save weight through the machining of various components,
I have never seen the body of a car lightened and drilled so much that it looks like Swiss cheese!

http://www.catamount...column_T800.htm

Does anyone else know of other examples of such extreme weight reduction?

#132 Graham Clayton

Graham Clayton
  • Member

  • 1,044 posts
  • Joined: January 01

Posted 12 December 2012 - 23:32

The six-wheeled BRISCA F1 stock-car built and driven by "Gentleman" John Stirk from Halifax in 1977:

Posted Image

The inspiration for the car was a Chinese 6-wheeler truck that Stirk used in his haulage business:

And keeping on the six-wheel thread, a 6-wheel twin-engined rear-seat driven Mazda 323 from New Zealand:

Posted Image



#133 layabout

layabout
  • Member

  • 97 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 13 December 2012 - 04:56

Debating whether to post here or in this thread...

The unidentified car in Number Four is a Gemini, one of only two built.
Posted Image

It was most advanced for its (1961 or '62) time, with inboard disc brakes front and rear. The weird, bizarre, useless part is the exaggerated nostril-effect intakes, which did not work, as somehow the cooling air just didn't enter and do its job.

A little later this car ran at Willow Springs, with a standup-tall wing. The wing was self-trimming at speed, with valve springs compressed by aerodynamic loads. The wing and other innovations were the work of Fred Puhn, whose monocoque wheels first appeared (maybe) on this car.

The driver is Chuck McCarty, the pictures at Pomona (Los Angeles County Fairground).


Frank S


Actually four, or maybe even five, of the Gemini Mk IVs were made. The cooling issue was not due to the nose design, but rather due to the two side radiators employed. The later, single radiator mounted under the same nose solved the problem.


#134 layabout

layabout
  • Member

  • 97 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 14 December 2012 - 21:23

Dosco- I think those in picture were the same peda (V shaped) in order to allow for left and right foot braking... IIRC, Hans posted a four pedal layout from pre-war Mercedes.

Aerogi- Auto-Union for hillclimbs also had twin rear wheels (this is what Ferrari tried in '70-ies)...

Posted Image

And to show that not only cars got weird aerodynamic improvements( thanks to Rob Ryder) :

Posted Image


Re: Graham Hill's helmet

It is an odd looking device, but it has an interesting background. It was "invented" by Graham's friend & racer, Lance Macklin. Lance got the idea from the spinning visor used to clear the sea spray from the screen on the gun boats he was commanding during the war. If anyone is interested look at the 2008 July issue of Motorsport Magazine, page 80.


#135 D-Type

D-Type
  • Member

  • 7,903 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 14 December 2012 - 21:41

Re: Graham Hill's helmet

It is an odd looking device, but it has an interesting background. It was "invented" by Graham's friend & racer, Lance Macklin. Lance got the idea from the spinning visor used to clear the sea spray from the screen on the gun boats he was commanding during the war. If anyone is interested look at the 2008 July issue of Motorsport Magazine, page 80.

On page 17 of John Tenant's Motor Racing the golden age there's a photo from 1951 of Nino Farina demonstrating a similar device. So is this another urban myth?

As Macklin retired from racing after the 1955 TT, when Hill was just starting racing, would they have even known each other?

#136 layabout

layabout
  • Member

  • 97 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 15 December 2012 - 04:29

On page 17 of John Tenant's Motor Racing the golden age there's a photo from 1951 of Nino Farina demonstrating a similar device. So is this another urban myth?

As Macklin retired from racing after the 1955 TT, when Hill was just starting racing, would they have even known each other?


Macklin retired from racing in 1956 at the behest of his girl friend & later wife, Shelagh Cooper. However he remained active in the racing community, ergo his connection with Graham Hill, and in the automotive industry via his connection with Facel Vega. MotorSport Magazine is a wonderful source of well researched information thanks to writers like Mr Nye. Anyone interested should have a look at the comments by family & friends in the 2008 July issue.

Edited by layabout, 15 December 2012 - 18:21.


#137 Graham Clayton

Graham Clayton
  • Member

  • 1,044 posts
  • Joined: January 01

Posted 21 January 2013 - 09:57

Jim Shampine’s 1979 rear-engined offset Oswego NY super modified:

Posted Image

Posted Image

Sources:

http://oswegocountytoday.com/?p=88043

http://www.retrorock...es/jimrear4.jpg

The car was banned shortly after it debuted, as the Owesgo track authorities feared it would make all the front-engined cars obsolete.

#138 Geoff E

Geoff E
  • Member

  • 1,208 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 21 January 2013 - 18:22

Posted Image

#139 962C

962C
  • Member

  • 125 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 22 January 2013 - 23:02

Turbo visors are still pretty common in kart racing.

Advertisement

#140 Graham Clayton

Graham Clayton
  • Member

  • 1,044 posts
  • Joined: January 01

Posted 07 February 2013 - 05:46

The prototype 1981 Anson SA3 F3 car featured very unusual rear bodywork, with abbreviated sidepods and an integrated rear wing.

Posted Image

The bodywork was unsuccessful, and was replaced with a normal rear wing and full-length sidepods for the SA3C production model.

#141 JacnGille

JacnGille
  • Member

  • 1,533 posts
  • Joined: July 02

Posted 07 February 2013 - 15:01

The prototype 1981 Anson SA3 F3 car featured very unusual rear bodywork, with abbreviated sidepods and an integrated rear wing.

Posted Image

The bodywork was unsuccessful, and was replaced with a normal rear wing and full-length sidepods for the SA3C production model.

Looks a lot like the '81 Gurney Eagle.
http://www.pbase.com...image/127806629

#142 Graham Clayton

Graham Clayton
  • Member

  • 1,044 posts
  • Joined: January 01

Posted 28 April 2013 - 07:20

Bill Bowman's fully streamlined Caracal D Formula Vee:

Posted Image

#143 Paolo

Paolo
  • Member

  • 1,673 posts
  • Joined: May 00

Posted 28 April 2013 - 13:51

Bill Bowman's fully streamlined Caracal D Formula Vee:

Posted Image


Please. more info on this wonder!


#144 alansart

alansart
  • Member

  • 3,968 posts
  • Joined: March 07

Posted 28 April 2013 - 14:06

Bill Bowman's fully streamlined Caracal D Formula Vee:

Posted Image


A similar idea to Hugo Spowers, Prowess FF1600 in the 80's.

http://www.interney....owessFFordC.jpg


#145 Michael Ferner

Michael Ferner
  • Member

  • 2,080 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 29 April 2013 - 14:05

It's pretty ridiculous seeing that ancient Volkswagen front axle on such a futuristic design! It looked odd enough on a "normal" car already...

#146 Alan Cox

Alan Cox
  • Member

  • 7,510 posts
  • Joined: March 03

Posted 29 April 2013 - 15:18

Turbo visors are still pretty common in kart racing.

Alongside Jim Redman, Graham Hill was probably its most high-profile user.
http://homepage.ntlw...tlas/visor1.jpg

#147 Sharman

Sharman
  • Member

  • 2,283 posts
  • Joined: September 05

Posted 29 April 2013 - 16:01

Re: Graham Hill's helmet

It is an odd looking device, but it has an interesting background. It was "invented" by Graham's friend & racer, Lance Macklin. Lance got the idea from the spinning visor used to clear the sea spray from the screen on the gun boats he was commanding during the war. If anyone is interested look at the 2008 July issue of Motorsport Magazine, page 80.


Gunboats which were probably built by one of his father's businesses "Fairmile Marine"

#148 Graham Clayton

Graham Clayton
  • Member

  • 1,044 posts
  • Joined: January 01

Posted 24 July 2013 - 11:39

Race footage and discussion of Tom Johnson's late 1990's sprintcar with an unusual front and top wing arrangement:



#149 JtP1

JtP1
  • Member

  • 753 posts
  • Joined: September 08

Posted 24 July 2013 - 11:54

Re: Graham Hill's helmet

It is an odd looking device, but it has an interesting background. It was "invented" by Graham's friend & racer, Lance Macklin. Lance got the idea from the spinning visor used to clear the sea spray from the screen on the gun boats he was commanding during the war. If anyone is interested look at the 2008 July issue of Motorsport Magazine, page 80.



The MTB rotating windscreen was produced by Kent Industries and senior member of Kent Industries was Graham's next door neighbour in Mill Hill.

#150 mariner

mariner
  • Member

  • 1,327 posts
  • Joined: January 07

Posted 24 July 2013 - 16:27

I think, but by no means sure , that the spinning GH visor appeared in a famous photo of him ramming a bank at a VERY wet Snetterton in '63 aimed right at the photographer. It may have been one of the first outings of the then-new BRM monocoque car.