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Experiments: weird, bizarre, useless, etc...


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#151 Tim Murray

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 17:14

Yes indeed - the photo was taken by Michael Cooper and appears in BRM Vol 3, but that Snetterton race was in 1964 (Hill won the 1963 race).

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#152 Ray Bell

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 20:18

Originally posted by 962C
Turbo visors are still pretty common in kart racing.


Graham Hill also used and championed this visor...

There's a photo of him at Longford in the torrential '68 race posted by Rod Mackenzie on another thread.

#153 D-Type

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 22:09

And in 1951 Farina demonstrated a similar visor! A photo (copyright the Ludvigsen Collection) can be found in John Tennant's MOTOR RACING the golden age on page 17. See post #135

#154 Graham Clayton

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 07:30

The much-touted Hydrolink suspension that Tyrell used on the 023 car for the 1995 World Championship season, which was removed from the cars halfway through the seasn due to its problems and inefficiences.

 

I am not sure if qualifies as an experiment, but the transparent cockpit cover on Graham McRae's F5000 GM3 was certainly different - has anyone else used a similar transparent cover?



#155 alansart

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 09:11

 

I am not sure if qualifies as an experiment, but the transparent cockpit cover on Graham McRae's F5000 GM3 was certainly different - has anyone else used a similar transparent cover?

 

Why did McRae do that?

The early 6 wheeled Tyrrells had windows in the cockpit so the drivers could see the front wheels.


Edited by alansart, 31 January 2014 - 09:11.


#156 Macca

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 09:22

Vanwall tried a streamline perspex cockpit cover in 1957 or '58, I think, and Brabham definitely used one in practise at Monza in 1967; both were apparently ineffective - I don't know if the McRae version was similar.

 

Paul M



#157 Stephen W

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 09:26

 

I am not sure if qualifies as an experiment, but the transparent cockpit cover on Graham McRae's F5000 GM3 was certainly different - has anyone else used a similar transparent cover?

 

 

Why did McRae do that?

The early 6 wheeled Tyrrells had windows in the cockpit so the drivers could see the front wheels.

 

Protos and Brabham both experimented with a Perspex bubble style screen but soon discarded them.



#158 Glengavel

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 09:28

Why did McRae do that?

The early 6 wheeled Tyrrells had windows in the cockpit so the drivers could see the front wheels.

 

I think the windows were added after initial testing when the drivers complained. Incidentally, what happened to Projects 1 to 33?

 

I remember one of the columnists in Autocar writing about the P34 and betting that 6-wheel cars would be banned the following season. When they weren't I wrote in and reminded him of his comments but I've yet to receive my winnings...



#159 2F-001

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 10:28

The windows on P34…

I'm sure I recall reading a report that, prior to the transparent panels being fitted, one of the drivers came in from a run in testing and said he thought he may have low pressure in one of the front tyres; one of the crew gestured to him to get out and take a look… as one of the front wheels was missing completely.
Does anyone know if this tale is actually true?

Edited by 2F-001, 31 January 2014 - 10:29.


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#160 Catalina Park

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 10:32

The McRae clear cockpit was not a bubble over the drivers head, it was a windscreen that started in front of the drivers feet.
He just used a sheet of Lexan to make the cockpit body instead of the usual fibreglass.

#161 nicanary

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 11:31

Why did McRae do that?

The early 6 wheeled Tyrrells had windows in the cockpit so the drivers could see the front wheels.

Nothing new under the sun - the Tyrrells copied the Austin/Morris FG trucks of the 50s/60s. Windows in the lower part of the cab for manoeuvering in narrow streets.



#162 Stephen W

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 12:20

The early 6 wheeled Tyrrells had windows in the cockpit so the drivers could see the front wheels.

 

 

I think the windows were added after initial testing when the drivers complained.

 

 

In 1976 at the British GP the 'windows' in the Tyrrells were increased in size. One of the commentary team said it was "so the spectators could see the drivers at work" but was it really done to help the drivers take a quick glance at the front wheels?



#163 E.B.

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 12:28

I think Scheckter (never a P34 fan) commented that they were of little benefit in that regard. I can't remember if that's because they got dirty very quickly or whether they were trying to solve a problem that he felt didn't exist.

#164 Ray Bell

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 15:13

Surprisingly, the cast alloy monocoque/s from de Tomaso haven't yet been mentioned in this thread...

 

There's some  detail in this thread, but precious little else to be found on the internet about them.

 

I'm of the opinion that the '62 F1 car with de Tomaso's own flat eight and 6-speed gearbox was made of cast sections while the Indianapolis version is said to be a one-piece mono.

 

Definitely different...



#165 Peter Morley

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 08:46

In 1976 at the British GP the 'windows' in the Tyrrells were increased in size. One of the commentary team said it was "so the spectators could see the drivers at work" but was it really done to help the drivers take a quick glance at the front wheels?

Weren't the windows so that the drivers could actually see the front wheels which were too small to be seen over the cockpit top - e.g. so that they could place them the appropriate distance from a kerb?



#166 D-Type

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 09:14

The windows on theTyrrells were definitely added so that the drivers could see the wheels.  But I always understood that the reason they needed to see them had nothing to do with placing the car - after all anybody in a modern saloon with a 'dropaway' bonnet doesn't have problems nor did drivers of Minis, Can-Am cars and indeed any sports cars with an all-enveloping body (as opposed to cycle wings).  The purpose was to allow them to check the wheels, for condition (e.g. wear and graining),  whether they were still pointing in the right direction after a bump and, if the story above is true, to check whether they were still there.

 

I don't have the Motor Sport disc for the 1970's to see what DSJ wrote at the time, but I know he would have written about them as it's the sort of detail he revelled in..



#167 Ray Bell

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 09:37

Not only that, the rear wheels formed a much wider car section, they'd have climbed kerbs that the front wheels missed...

 

These kinds of judgements most drivers would make as a matter of course.



#168 Catalina Park

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 10:34

Not only that, the rear wheels formed a much wider car section, they'd have climbed kerbs that the front wheels missed...


Yep.

P34Archive001.jpg

#169 Roger Clark

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 10:59

Surprisingly, the cast alloy monocoque/s from de Tomaso haven't yet been mentioned in this thread...
 
There's some  detail in this thread, but precious little else to be found on the internet about them.
 
I'm of the opinion that the '62 F1 car with de Tomaso's own flat eight and 6-speed gearbox was made of cast sections while the Indianapolis version is said to be a one-piece mono.
 
Definitely different...

The flat eight car had a tubular space-frame.

#170 arttidesco

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 11:29

In 1976 at the British GP the 'windows' in the Tyrrells were increased in size. One of the commentary team said it was "so the spectators could see the drivers at work" but was it really done to help the drivers take a quick glance at the front wheels?

 

The window's were definitely not in place when the car was launched, IIRC larger windows were fitted for the British GP and Uncle Ken said he would suggest they become mandatory to the authorities if he got enough support, which regrettably he did not.



#171 2F-001

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 12:58

E.B. said:
"I think Scheckter (never a P34 fan) commented that they were of little benefit in that regard. I can't remember if that's because they got dirty very quickly or whether they were trying to solve a problem that he felt didn't exist."

I think the latter possibility rather reflected Scheckter's view, at the time, of the six-wheeler project as a whole, rather than just the 'windows', didn't it?

#172 Michael Ferner

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 17:46

Yep.

P34Archive001.jpg


:D

#173 onelung

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 01:35

Can't for the life of me understand why this was never picked up for Formula 1...

hgb9.jpg



#174 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 08:03

Yep.

P34Archive001.jpg

That's what modern F1 needs, proper tyres! And that pic is fabulous, just back em into a corner and drive them out. Spectacular. And near impossible to do on modern tyres as they have so much grip.

#175 Michael Ferner

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 10:50

Can't for the life of me understand why this was never picked up for Formula 1...
hgb9.jpg


A whacky concept... like "cornering on rails"... Hey, wait a minute!

;)

#176 Allan Lupton

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 11:09

Can't for the life of me understand why this was never picked up for Formula 1...

 

Wasn't it?

Something makes 'em corner boringly well these days.



#177 Graham Clayton

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 10:27

Ike Eichelberger's 1969 Porsche-Keil, with movable central body panel giving variable downforce:
 

http://www.virhistor...s/keil/keil.htm

 



#178 Henri Greuter

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 07:33

The windows on P34…

I'm sure I recall reading a report that, prior to the transparent panels being fitted, one of the drivers came in from a run in testing and said he thought he may have low pressure in one of the front tyres; one of the crew gestured to him to get out and take a look… as one of the front wheels was missing completely.
Does anyone know if this tale is actually true?

 

 

I don't know if the story you descrribe is true. But....

I have read in a column (Ghost?)written by Jody Scheckter in a Dutch magazine that on one occasion he had noticed he had lost a wheel and decided to have a little fungame by driving on to find out it the crew would notice it too when he passed the pitlane. They did....

 

Henri


Edited by Henri Greuter, 23 April 2014 - 07:38.


#179 DanTra2858

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 06:29

That's what modern F1 needs, proper tyres! And that pic is fabulous, just back em into a corner and drive them out. Spectacular. And near impossible to do on modern tyres as they have so much grip.


Lee I agree with you on this one, at the last GP IT WAS HARD TO PASS A CAR ON THE STRAIGHT due to the amount of Marbles that had been deposited, in the end what happens to all the marbles are they disposed of correctly or do they become more toxic waste.

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#180 Catalina Park

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 10:00

I know that some European circuits have to vacuum the track after each meeting to remove the rubber waste to prevent it from entering the polluted waterways.

#181 Henri Greuter

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 10:40

I know that some European circuits have to vacuum the track after each meeting to remove the rubber waste to prevent it from entering the polluted waterways.

 

 

So to avoid the tire marbling, let's make them much harder again like in the pre-tire changes era.

Will slow the cars down massively if forced to run on much harder (= less grippy) tire

I don't mind but I wonder how the majorituy of the current day fans, speed and noise obsessed as they appear to be (See the racing forum) will think about that....

Some of them are still complaining about track records set in 2004 which are still not broken......

 

 

 

Henri



#182 Allan Lupton

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 11:14

So to avoid the tire marbling, let's make them much harder again like in the pre-tire changes era.

Will slow the cars down massively if forced to run on much harder (= less grippy) tire

I don't mind but I wonder how the majorituy of the current day fans, speed and noise obsessed as they appear to be (See the racing forum) will think about that....

Some of them are still complaining about track records set in 2004 which are still not broken......

 

 

 

Henri

Well we've put up with the over-prescriptive rules that wrecked motor racing as we knew it for long enough, so surely it's the fanboys' turn!

We remember the upset when in 1958 Cooper first thought of running a full Grand Prix without changing tyres - it'd be good if they were allowed to try that again.

What sort of advert is it that the tyres don't last 20 laps - and that's a valid point before I bleat on about the rule that forces the cars to use a tyre that is not what is thought most suitable.



#183 Graham Clayton

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 07:19

At the 1996 Italian Grand Prix, the Tyrell team ran a solid front wishbone, in an attempt to cut drag. The FIA banned it, on the grounds of being a moveable aerodynamic device.

 

 

up024a.jpg

 

http://www.racecar-e...1/09/up024a.jpg



#184 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 08:24

I know that some European circuits have to vacuum the track after each meeting to remove the rubber waste to prevent it from entering the polluted waterways.

There is some here too. Not just [legitimate] enviro concerns but the grass does not grow in rubber on the edge of the track.



#185 Duc-Man

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 15:57

I think this has not been mentioned here yet: Lebacq DL7

http://www.oto6.fr/6...roueslebacq.htm

Okay, it's in french....

6wheelerliege77.jpg

 

The picture is from that site.


Edited by Duc-Man, 31 May 2014 - 15:59.


#186 Graham Clayton

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 07:42

1972 Formula 2 Crossle 22F, with unusual mid-mounted wings:

 

 22f.jpg

 

Source: http://www.crossle.c...ssle_20_22F.htm



#187 Graham Clayton

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 04:26

The 2011 BRISCA "tilt car" stockcar of Craig Finniken, with the body radically tipped over the left. Finniken seems to have gone back to a standard body, so the "tilt car" musn't have worked too well.

 

55upclose0-Medium-590x442.jpg

 

 

http://f1stockcars.c...ig-finnikin-55/



#188 Graham Clayton

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Posted 18 September 2014 - 23:10

The Lancia Delta S4 Group B rally car used both a supercharger and turbocharger, with an intercooler for each one. The supercharger worked at low speeds, after which the turbocharger took over, with a bypass valve relieving the pressure from the supercharger.

 

strange_pic_lancia_s4_charge.jpg

 

With the banning of Group B and replacement by the less complicated Group A, there was no need to develop such a complicated system in future cars.



#189 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 18 September 2014 - 23:17

The 2011 BRISCA "tilt car" stockcar of Craig Finniken, with the body radically tipped over the left. Finniken seems to have gone back to a standard body, so the "tilt car" musn't have worked too well.

 

55upclose0-Medium-590x442.jpg

 

 

http://f1stockcars.c...ig-finnikin-55/

All oval track cars lean left. That one a little more than most. The car squares up on the track with the chassis roll. And oval cars have to be soft and supple to get traction.

On that car the wing will be all wrong upon cornering, the object of that big left wing fence is to channel the air right to left, and push down on the l/r more



#190 Duc-Man

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Posted 19 September 2014 - 15:51

The Lancia Delta S4 Group B rally car used both a supercharger and turbocharger, with an intercooler for each one. The supercharger worked at low speeds, after which the turbocharger took over, with a bypass valve relieving the pressure from the supercharger.

 

strange_pic_lancia_s4_charge.jpg

 

With the banning of Group B and replacement by the less complicated Group A, there was no need to develop such a complicated system in future cars.

 

They went even further with the engine for the ECV that was in development for the Gr.S.

Gents, here is the Triflux engine:

motor2.jpg

And they had it actually build and running.

tumblr_lqsx5f4uj91qk65n6o1_1280.jpg



#191 Dick Dastardly

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Posted 19 September 2014 - 19:32

I suppose you can add the 2-seater F1 cars to the list of oddities. 

I know this was a few years ago [10+] and they are not current F1 spec, but are they used anywhere for demos, promo work etc? Martin Brundle taking Murray Walker round Silverstone sticks in my mind. I vaguely remember something about a proposed series of races for them but that never happened, or did it?

If that spec of F1 became eligible for Historic F1, would these cars also be eligible, even with no passenger?



#192 scheivlak

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Posted 19 September 2014 - 21:05

1972 Formula 2 Crossle 22F, with unusual mid-mounted wings:

 

 22f.jpg

 

Source: http://www.crossle.c...ssle_20_22F.htm

 

Clearly inspired by Ferrari 

 

Ickx-312b.jpg



#193 scheivlak

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Posted 19 September 2014 - 21:16

I suppose you can add the 2-seater F1 cars to the list of oddities. 

I know this was a few years ago [10+] and they are not current F1 spec, but are they used anywhere for demos, promo work etc? Martin Brundle taking Murray Walker round Silverstone sticks in my mind. I vaguely remember something about a proposed series of races for them but that never happened, or did it?

 

A series never happened but there was a 'race' in Rockinham in 2003 won by Verstappen sr. and a certain mister Kay, look at the headline :D   http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/24425



#194 dolomite

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Posted 19 September 2014 - 23:25

A series never happened but there was a 'race' in Rockinham in 2003 won by Verstappen sr. and a certain mister Kay, look at the headline :D   http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/24425

I seem to recall also a race at Donington that featured a fairly nasty shunt involving Mr Mansell