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Toleman TG183


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#1 Thodore33

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Posted 13 March 2004 - 19:32

Hy,

About this Toleman TG183 (very strange car), I would like to know why it had no front wing and if it was really a good idea, because the TG183B, in 1984, had a front wing.
I also would like to know if Téo Fabi drove this car.
Finaly, I only have found one picture of this car on the web : http://www.allf1.inf...lery/nelson.php. So, does someone has another pictures of this car ?

Thanks

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#2 Rob Ryder

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Posted 13 March 2004 - 19:55

I think your years are incorrect. The TG183 was used in 1982 at two GP's, Italy and USA, driven by Derek Warwick. The TG183B was the 1983 modification...
Also the pictures in your link are all Brabhams :drunk:

Posted Image
1982 Italian GP, Monza (Photo : Automobile Year)

#3 Vrba

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Posted 13 March 2004 - 20:19

Originally posted by Rob Ryder
I think your years are incorrect. The TG183 was used in 1982 at two GP's, Italy and USA, driven by Derek Warwick. The TG183B was the 1983 modification...
Also the pictures in your link are all Brabhams :drunk:

Posted Image
1983 Italian GP, Monza (Photo : Automobile Year)

The picture above looks more like from 1982 than 1983....
Back in 1982, the cars were still built to the "wing car" concept, harnessing the airflow beneath the car to achieve downforce. Many cars (at certain faster tracks) run with no front wing during that era. They simply didn't need nose aerofoils as all necessary downforce was created by the sidepod wings. For 1983, when the concept was banned, front wings became necessary again.

Hrvoje

#4 Rob Ryder

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Posted 13 March 2004 - 20:26

Originally posted by Vrba
The picture above looks more like from 1982 than 1983....


Ooops.. I correct the dates in Théodore33 post and then put a typo in the photo caption :blush: :blush: .. it is Monza in 1982.
In my defence I did say that the TG183 was only used for two races though, both in 1982...
Rob
P.S. I've corrected the caption ;)

#5 ensign14

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Posted 13 March 2004 - 21:10

Question is, what happened to the TG182?

And what did they do to the TG181 that took it from perennially DNQing in '81 to setting fastest laps and being a serious points contender in '82?

#6 dolomite

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Posted 13 March 2004 - 21:17

I have some nice pictures of TG183Bs from Silverstone 83, will post them in a day or two.

#7 Vicuna

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Posted 13 March 2004 - 21:36

Originally posted by ensign14
Question is, what happened to the TG182?

And what did they do to the TG181 that took it from perennially DNQing in '81 to setting fastest laps and being a serious points contender in '82?


The same thing that happened to the McLaren M27 and the Brabham BT51?

#8 ensign14

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Posted 13 March 2004 - 22:37

Originally posted by Vicuna


The same thing that happened to the McLaren M27 and the Brabham BT51?

There actually was a BT51, there were pics &c in Grand Prix International at the end of the '82 season. It was a ground effect turbo built for pit stops. Then they banned ground effects so it never got to race.

The M27 was a postulated replacement for the M26, but when ground effects were pushed by Lotus McLaren dropped it & went to the M28 (per Nye, McLaren: GP/Indy/Can-Am Cars).

Maybe the 181B was what the 182 was meant to be...

#9 Vrba

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Posted 14 March 2004 - 09:16

Originally posted by ensign14
There actually was a BT51, there were pics &c in Grand Prix International at the end of the '82 season. It was a ground effect turbo built for pit stops. Then they banned ground effects so it never got to race.....

A bit off the topic - does anyone have any pic of BT51 (it was not built at all but just designed)? I am very curious to compare it with BT50 and BT52.

Hrvoje

#10 Vrba

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Posted 14 March 2004 - 09:17

Originally posted by Rob Ryder

Ooops.. I correct the dates in Théodore33 post and then put a typo in the photo caption :blush: :blush: .. it is Monza in 1982.
In my defence I did say that the TG183 was only used for two races though, both in 1982...
Rob
P.S. I've corrected the caption ;)

No need to blush, it was obviously a typo and I put the remark only for correctness's sake :)

Hrvoje

#11 uechtel

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Posted 14 March 2004 - 12:16

Originally posted by Vrba

A bit off the topic - does anyone have any pic of BT51 (it was not built at all but just designed)? I am very curious to compare it with BT50 and BT52.

Hrvoje


Posted Image

For search of other such mysteries you´ll probably like to take a look here

#12 Maldwyn

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Posted 14 March 2004 - 12:44

Originally posted by Théodore33
Finaly, I only have found one picture of this car on the web : http://www.allf1.inf...lery/nelson.php. So, does someone has another pictures of this car ?

Posted Image

#13 Thodore33

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Posted 14 March 2004 - 13:17

Thanks at everyone.

Sorry, I was absolutly wrong for the years :blush: :blush: :blush:

#14 dolomite

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Posted 14 March 2004 - 20:03

Originally posted by Vrba

A bit off the topic - does anyone have any pic of BT51 (it was not built at all but just designed)? I am very curious to compare it with BT50 and BT52.

Hrvoje


http://forums.atlasf...&highlight=bt51

#15 dolomite

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Posted 14 March 2004 - 21:05

This is the 1983 TG183B. Instead of nose wings, a full width nose containing the radiators was fitted, with venturi underwing beneath in an attempt to generate ground effect downforce in an area not affected by the flat bottom rule.

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Posted Image

#16 Vrba

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Posted 14 March 2004 - 22:44

uechtel, dolomite, thank you. I had no idea BT51 was really built and tested!!

Hrvoje

#17 Gert

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Posted 14 March 2004 - 23:57

Great pictures, dolomite!
Thanks :up:

#18 275 GTB-4

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Posted 15 March 2004 - 02:40

Originally posted by Vrba

The picture above looks more like from 1982 than 1983....
Back in 1982, the cars were still built to the "wing car" concept, harnessing the airflow beneath the car to achieve downforce. Many cars (at certain faster tracks) run with no front wing during that era. They simply didn't need nose aerofoils as all necessary downforce was created by the sidepod wings. For 1983, when the concept was banned, front wings became necessary again.

Hrvoje


Jusy watched a short part of the Spa race in 83 - Murray Walker was concerned that the Warwick Toleman was not going to hold together!!

#19 Graham Clayton

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 02:28

What was the rationale behind the twin rear-wing arrangement on the TG183B?
Wouldn't the decrease in drag caused by two wings negate any increases in downforce?

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#20 Spaceframe

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 10:01

What was the rationale behind the twin rear-wing arrangement on the TG183B?
Wouldn't the decrease in drag caused by two wings negate any increases in downforce?

By putting the most forward of the rear wings in front of the rear wheels another 40 centimetres of width could be added. Ferrari followed the same rationale at Monaco in 1979 and 1980, when the used a rear wing in front of the rear wheels - at a slow track it apparently was the best compromise to sacrifice a bit of top speed for a bit more downforce.

During 1983 several teams experimented with ways of exploiting the wider bodywork allowed between the front and rear wheels. But towards the end of the season the teams apparently agreed that the small winglets in front of the rear wheels (first used by Ferrari!) was the way to go, and in 1984 everybody had them.

1983 was in many ways a year of transition. Very late in 1982 flat bottomed rules were introduced - so late that many teams already had begun building their 1983 wing cars, and hence the initial aerodynamics were quite diverse: Most followed the path chosen by Williams and Brabham (a narrow mopnocoque, with the radiators and centre of gravity right in front of the rear wheels - others quickly realized that McLaren's coke bottle rear bodywork (of the MP4/1C) was a better solution, and as early as the first European GP the first modification in this direction was introduced by ATS and others.

Toleman chose a different path: The massive front end was designed as a wing profile, but although it gave massive downforce at the front, it also created problems with porpoisoning. The arrangement with double reart wings was also an attempt to create more downforce under the new rules.

An extra complication was the rise of the turbo engines. In 1982 a parity still existed between the 3-litre atmospherics and the 1,5-litre turbos (as witnessed by several pole positions scored by DFV-powered cars), but in 1983 the turbos had developed into far more powerful units than their atmospheric counterparts. The extra power meant that bigger wings became feasible not only on slow street circuits.

So to conclude: The combination of a sudden loss of downforce due to new regulations and a big increase in engione power meant that the previous balance between straight line speed and cornering speed was gone and a new one had to be found.