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One F1 record safe for yet another season


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#1 Henri Greuter

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Posted 22 March 2004 - 10:28

With the fears of a Ferrari whitewash (redwash??) this season coming up, F2004 has failed to improve on at least one record.

Since Rubens failed to score 2nd place in Malaysia it means that the 1979 Ferrari 312T4 and the 1998 McLaren MP4/13 are, to the best of my knowledge, the only F1 cars of modern times that managed to score a double victory within their first two starts.

A bit of nostalgia (1979 at least....) left intact.



Henri Greuter

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#2 mikedeering

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Posted 22 March 2004 - 11:45

What about the 1992 Williams FW14B, or doesn't it count as it's a "B" designation based on the 1991 car and therefore not completely new?

I am sure Mansell and Patrese finished 1-2 in the first 3 races of the year. Mansell won the first 5 races.

#3 Henri Greuter

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Posted 22 March 2004 - 12:03

If you're right (I don't know it out of the top of my head) then that is indeed the record. Wheter B or not. But I can't recall it right now if Williams did indeed ever score 3 doubles in a row. I know about `the handful`. Straight victories from race One on for a new car is of course held by the 1988 MP4/4.

Funny enough, many people still herald the '92 and '93 williams cars as their best ever. But how many people will believe that their best ever car was the 1996 FW18?


Henri Greuter

#4 mikedeering

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Posted 22 March 2004 - 12:23

I think the 1992/93 cars are thought of as dominant primarily due to the qualifying performances - Mansell in particular would often be a second faster in qualifying than anything else, with Patrese a further second ahead of everyone else IIRC. In 1993, Prost took 13(?) poles - and he would be the first to admit he was not brilliant in qualifying. Compare that with the F2002 - 15/17 wins, but IIRC Montoya got 7 poles against that car. Between Canada 1992 and Australia 1993 (24 races?) I think a Williams FW14B/15C started on pole in each race.

It is difficult to judge the most dominant cars - you have to weigh up qualifying performances, race perofrmance, reliability etc. In times of outright pace over 1 lap, the 1992/93 Williams were completely dominant, but in the races they weren't as good due to many reasons - reliability, weather, Prost's inability to get a decent start, Mansell's mistakes etc. The F2002 however was the opposite - completley dominant in race trim but not so good over 1 lap.

The 1982 Renaults were usually outstanding in qualifying, but they never get included in the best car polls, since they never lasted a race distance!

Forix shows 1-2's for FW14B in first 3 races - South Africa, Mexico & Brazil. Patrese spun out of 2nd at round 4 Spain. Mansell won. At the next race (San Marino) they finished 1-2 again, so without the spin the team could have had 5 1-2s in succession. Instead they had just 3 in a row - still good enough for the record though.

#5 x_acto

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Posted 22 March 2004 - 12:29

For me, the best Williams was the 1992, despite the poor championship points by Patrese (one of the my all-time favorites...)

...but the 1993 and 1996 Williams was very good also. Damon Hill who was almost a rookie makes a good season and the rookie Jacques Villeneuve makes a even better first season (Pole in the first race and loose a deserve to win because some problems with the car)

#6 Henri Greuter

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Posted 22 March 2004 - 13:02

Originally posted by mikedeering

Forix shows 1-2's for FW14B in first 3 races - South Africa, Mexico & Brazil. Patrese spun out of 2nd at round 4 Spain. Mansell won. At the next race (San Marino) they finished 1-2 again, so without the spin the team could have had 5 1-2s in succession. Instead they had just 3 in a row - still good enough for the record though.



Thanks, I stand corrected.
Anyway, the Williams record is indeed safe for yeat another year.....



Henri Greuter

#7 Daniel Lester

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Posted 22 March 2004 - 13:10

The F2002 failed as well, Barrichello failed to start in Spain. But it went 1,2 1, DNF.

#8 Henri Greuter

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Posted 22 March 2004 - 15:22

Originally posted by mikedeering
I think the 1992/93 cars are thought of as dominant primarily due to the qualifying performances - Mansell in particular would often be a second faster in qualifying than anything else, with Patrese a further second ahead of everyone else IIRC. In 1993, Prost took 13(?) poles - and he would be the first to admit he was not brilliant in qualifying. Compare that with the F2002 - 15/17 wins, but IIRC Montoya got 7 poles against that car. Between Canada 1992 and Australia 1993 (24 races?) I think a Williams FW14B/15C started on pole in each race.

It is difficult to judge the most dominant cars - you have to weigh up qualifying performances, race perofrmance, reliability etc. In times of outright pace over 1 lap, the 1992/93 Williams were completely dominant, but in the races they weren't as good due to many reasons - reliability, weather, Prost's inability to get a decent start, Mansell's mistakes etc. The F2002 however was the opposite - completley dominant in race trim but not so good over 1 lap.

The 1982 Renaults were usually outstanding in qualifying, but they never get included in the best car polls, since they never lasted a race distance!

Forix shows 1-2's for FW14B in first 3 races - South Africa, Mexico & Brazil. Patrese spun out of 2nd at round 4 Spain. Mansell won. At the next race (San Marino) they finished 1-2 again, so without the spin the team could have had 5 1-2s in succession. Instead they had just 3 in a row - still good enough for the record though.



I have tried to do such a comparison once and took the race results as prime arguements since that's what yielded points and made a driver world champion. Q-results may be of influence but they don't count in the overall standings....

According my selection procedure, The top three dominators, cars that overwhelmed their opposition on Race Day are indeed the MP4/4, the F2002 (only during the 2002 season) and the '96 FW18.
But indeed, if qualification is taken into account, some of the early 90's McLarens (Senna) and Williamses outdid these three cars.
But then, it is near staggering to see how much Fw18 overwhelms its elder sisters on Race day results.
The Race Day records of the MP4/4 and the F2002 are beyond belief, with these two cars marginally bettering anothers record. But how this could have been if the Ferrari had starated 32 races instead of only 29 as it did during 2002, then some more of the records of the MP4/4 may have fallen to the F2002.
F2002 was indeed not the strongest qualifier. But who cared: no points given for qualifications...
For example: Rubens failed to start the reace twice with an F2002: the only occasions that an F2002 failed to finish a race in 2002 and one of only three occasions that the F2002 failed to score any points at the finish (7th at Monaco for Rubens the other non point scoring result)
But I admit, if we add the 2003 results.....

Henri Greuter

#9 wati

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Posted 22 March 2004 - 15:47

Originally posted by Henri Greuter
Funny enough, many people still herald the '92 and '93 williams cars as their best ever. But how many people will believe that their best ever car was the 1996 FW18?


Henri Greuter


Interesting. I think the best williams car from the 90's was the 1995 model, the FW17.

Wattie

#10 gdecarli

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Posted 23 March 2004 - 01:17

I don't recall all details, but I consider 1992 the best season for Williams even if 1996 seems to be better.
Mansell won world championship after 11 GP: he had 8 wins, 2 seconds (Monaco and Hungary) and one crash at Montreal. In the same 11 GP, Patrese has 6 seconds, 1 third (Monaco), 1 eighth (Germany) and 3 stops. Standings were:
  • Mansell (Williams) 92
  • Patrese (Williams) 40
  • Senna (McLaren) 34
  • Schumacher (Benetton) 33
  • Berger (McLaren) 24
  • Brundle (Benetton) 18
  • Williams Renault 132
  • McLaren Honda 58
  • Benetton Ford 51
When Patrese had to stop was second (Spain, Canada); in Germany he was fighting for second position and at Budapest he was leading the race after a spun due to oil on the track. Mansell crashed at Montreal when he was second, trying to overtake Senna.

In 5 remaining GP there were 5 different winners: Schumacher (his first win, at Spa), Senna (Monza), Mansell (Estoril), Patrese (Suzuka) and Berger (Adelaide). Quite interesting, this would be a standing of these 5 GP only:
  • Berger (McLaren) 25
  • Schumacher (Benetton) 20 (best result: 1 win)
  • Brundle (Benetton) 20 (best result: 1 second)
  • Mansell (Williams) 16 (1 win, 1 second)
  • Senna (McLaren) 16 (1 win, 1 third, 1 fifht)
    Patrese (Williams) 16 (1 win, 1 third, 1 fifht)
  • McLaren Honda 41
  • Benetton Ford 40
  • Williams Renault 32
Mansell had 3 stops (Monza: gearbox - Suzuka: engine - Adelaide: crash); but I have to add that he was leading in all three GP, even if at Monza and Suzuka he let Patrese overtake him before his stop.
This is such a big difference, it seems quite incredible to believe that we are talking about the same season. I think there are two reason for this situation:
  • unluck
  • Mansell and Williams were already world championship and they weren't so concentrated as they were before Hungary (they were talking about 1993, ...)
From 1994 to 1997, Williams (or its drivers only) had to compete for world championship nearly to the last GP, so they were much concentrated and they could reach better results.

It's quite difficult for me to explain in English, but I hope you can now understand why I consider 1992 better than 1996 for Williams.

Ciao,
Guido

#11 gdecarli

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Posted 23 March 2004 - 01:30

Originally posted by Henri Greuter
it means that the 1979 Ferrari 312T4 and the 1998 McLaren MP4/13 are, to the best of my knowledge, the only F1 cars of modern times that managed to score a double victory within their first two starts.

Back to old times (and considering world championship only), in 1952 Ferrari 500 has six 1-2 in a row (all drivers listed but Gonzales at Monza drove it) :
  • Switzerland GP: 1st Taruffi - 2nd Fisher
  • Belgium/Europe GP: 1st Ascari - 2nd Farina
  • AC France GP: 1st Ascari - 2nd Farina - 3rd Gonzales
  • Great Britain GP: 1st Ascari - 2nd Taruffi
  • Germany GP: 1st Ascari - 2nd Farina - 3rd Fischer - 4th Taruffi
  • Netherlands GP: 1st Ascari - 2nd Farina - 3rd Villoresi
    Italy GP: 1st Ascari - 2nd Gonzales (Maserati) - 3rd Villoresi - 4th Farina
I haven't checked all seasons, but I think that this is the best ever result!

Ciao,
Guido

#12 gdecarli

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Posted 23 March 2004 - 01:54

Back to modern age again, in 1978 Lotus 79 was close to this result:
  • Belgium GP: 1st Andretti (Lotus 79) - 2nd Peterson (Lotus 78)
  • Spain GP: 1st Andretti (Lotus 79) - 2nd Peterson (Lotus 79)
So Lotus 79 had in its first 3 starts one win and one 1-2.


Williams FW07 had two 1-2 in a row in 1981:
  • Long Beach GP: 1st Jones - 2nd Reutemann
  • Brazil GP: 1st Reutemann - 2nd Jones
but I think they were too similar to 1980 model to consider it in this record.

In this moment I don't recall any more result...

Ciao,
Guido

#13 baggish

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Posted 23 March 2004 - 03:03

Originally posted by Henri Greuter
Since Rubens failed to score 2nd place in Malaysia it means that the 1979 Ferrari 312T4 and the 1998 McLaren MP4/13 are, to the best of my knowledge, the only F1 cars of modern times that managed to score a double victory within their first two starts.


If only P Depailler had finished 2nd instead of 4th in Argentina 1979, then two cars would have managed this feat in a row... But of course we all know about 'if' ;) Ligier did manage two 1-2s in practice for their first two starts, which the T4 did not.

Jon

#14 Henri Greuter

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Posted 23 March 2004 - 07:57

Originally posted by gdecarli
I don't recall all details, but I consider 1992 the best season for Williams even if 1996 seems to be better.
Mansell won world championship after 11 GP: he had 8 wins, 2 seconds (Monaco and Hungary) and one crash at Montreal. In the same 11 GP, Patrese has 6 seconds, 1 third (Monaco), 1 eighth (Germany) and 3 stops. Standings were:

  • Mansell (Williams) 92
  • Patrese (Williams) 40
  • Senna (McLaren) 34
  • Schumacher (Benetton) 33
  • Berger (McLaren) 24
  • Brundle (Benetton) 18
  • Williams Renault 132
  • McLaren Honda 58
  • Benetton Ford 51
When Patrese had to stop was second (Spain, Canada); in Germany he was fighting for second position and at Budapest he was leading the race after a spun due to oil on the track. Mansell crashed at Montreal when he was second, trying to overtake Senna.

In 5 remaining GP there were 5 different winners: Schumacher (his first win, at Spa), Senna (Monza), Mansell (Estoril), Patrese (Suzuka) and Berger (Adelaide). Quite interesting, this would be a standing of these 5 GP only:
  • Berger (McLaren) 25
  • Schumacher (Benetton) 20 (best result: 1 win)
  • Brundle (Benetton) 20 (best result: 1 second)
  • Mansell (Williams) 16 (1 win, 1 second)
  • Senna (McLaren) 16 (1 win, 1 third, 1 fifht)
    Patrese (Williams) 16 (1 win, 1 third, 1 fifht)
  • McLaren Honda 41
  • Benetton Ford 40
  • Williams Renault 32
Mansell had 3 stops (Monza: gearbox - Suzuka: engine - Adelaide: crash); but I have to add that he was leading in all three GP, even if at Monza and Suzuka he let Patrese overtake him before his stop.
This is such a big difference, it seems quite incredible to believe that we are talking about the same season. I think there are two reason for this situation:
  • unluck
  • Mansell and Williams were already world championship and they weren't so concentrated as they were before Hungary (they were talking about 1993, ...)
From 1994 to 1997, Williams (or its drivers only) had to compete for world championship nearly to the last GP, so they were much concentrated and they could reach better results.

It's quite difficult for me to explain in English, but I hope you can now understand why I consider 1992 better than 1996 for Williams.

Ciao,
Guido



Another chink in the armour of the 1996 FW18 is this one:

Schumacher had left Benetton Renault for Ferrari that year.
Now I know the Hill and Villeneuve fans will hit me for this one but I am prety certain that the whitewash season these two 2nd generation drivers had that season should have been much more difficult, if not impossible if Schumacher still had been racing a Benetton-Renault that year......


Henri Greuter

#15 Mohican

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Posted 27 March 2004 - 17:00

Or even a Ligier...

We tend to forget that Ligier won a race in '96.

#16 Jhope

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Posted 27 March 2004 - 19:10

Originally posted by Mohican
Or even a Ligier...

We tend to forget that Ligier won a race in '96.


It's not very hard when only 5 cars remain on track at races end, and the top team left (McLaren and Coulthard) were suffering a horrible afternoon out on track.

#17 Ray Bell

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Posted 27 March 2004 - 23:10

Originally posted by x_acto
.....(Pole in the first race and loose a deserve to win because some problems with the car)


Not really a problem with the car...

It was leaking oil because he had gone over the kerb at the beginning of the race.

#18 D-Type

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Posted 27 March 2004 - 23:25

Originally posted by Henri Greuter



I have tried to do such a comparison once and took the race results as prime arguements since that's what yielded points and made a driver world champion. Q-results may be of influence but they don't count in the overall standings....


How very true. The object of racing is to win. Other statistics, including championship points, are irrelevant. Or at least subservient.

#19 gdecarli

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Posted 28 March 2004 - 00:38

Originally posted by Mohican
Or even a Ligier...

We tend to forget that Ligier won a race in '96.

If that GP was a little longer, I could have won with my Fiat Uno! :)
For sure Panis was very clever not to crash as many other drivers did, but Ligier was not a very good car. If I have to say a third team, I would say Benetton. IIRC, Alesi was leading the same Monaco GP. Look at 1996 final standings:
  • Williams Renault 175 (12 victories)
  • Ferrari 70 (3 victories)
  • Benetton Renault 68
  • McLaren Mercedes 49
  • Jordan Peugeot 22
  • Ligier Mugen 15 (1 victory)
  • Sauber Ford 11
  • Tyrrell Yamaha 5
  • Footwork Arrows Hart 1
  • Minardi Ford 0
  • Forti Ford 0
Ciao,
Guido