48 replies to this topic

[Barry Boor]

It is possible that this thread should be on the Racing Simulators forum but given the interest in racing history on TNF, I hope it is allowed to remain.

I make no apologies while admitting to being a Legends racing sim player. I know there are many on TNF, but for those who are not - I would like to offer an observation.

My respect for racing car drivers from the years pre-Stewart (or more correctly, pre-Stewart influence!) has always been immense. However, now that I am getting the hang of Legends, and can get a Lotus 49 around in under 3 minutes 40, that respect has grown ten-fold. I can only guess at the relief those drivers must have felt as they climbed from their cars at the end of the Belgian Grand Prix, knowing that they had survived and could go home.

And remember, I'm slow by the standars of people like Wolf and Tyrrell P34.

BELIEVE ME, IT'S SCARY!!! Even sitting in my own computer room, my hands are sweating and I am shaking from the pure elation of going around that awesome place.

Now don't laugh..... if you haven't tried it, try it and then laugh. I DARE YOU!

[WDH74]

Truly, Spa is a scary circuit, especially with its lack of barriers in GPL. Lots of places to slide off into a hill or smack into someone's front stoop. Of the original tracks that came with the game, only the Nurburgring comes close, but the Ring's got enough slow turns that I'm far more comfortable there than at Spa (even though I'm abominably slow there!). No other track in the game-original or add on-gives me the yips like Spa.
-William

[Dave Ware]

I think this is an extremely relevant thread!!

I have a FF wheel but have never set up a proper desk to use both the wheel and pedals. So I haven't done much w/ GPL. I sure don't have much in the way of time either.

Hopefully I can get to is someday soon.

Dave

[fester82]

I still haven't mastered getting thru the Masta kink without lifting. After I downloaded some setups, I've gotten close, but always seem to get just enough of the grass. Next thing I know, I'm next to a farm house just like Sir Jackie.

I did get to the original track in person after it was deemed unsafe for F1 at a 24hr race when the Bimmer 3.0CSLs were battling the Ford Capris ('75). My father and I watched a good portion at the kink. Later, we actually drove on some of the track that was part of the roads then when they weren't racing. Eau Rouge was too steep for normal road traffic to follow, so the road extended past that portion of the track and then came back to the original pits. TV never gives you a real perspective for the elevation changes.

[Buford]

I was surprised how hard Mosport was. I drove it in real life but in a tiddler car. Actually though, GPL is way way off on grip. The tracks are great but the cars are like driving on ice. No I never drove a 1967 GP car but I drove Formula cars about 5 years later and you could not spin them out at 35MPH no matter how hard you tried. If they could just figure out a way to give them 50% more grip, it would be much more realistic and I would actually be able to drive 2 laps in a row without flying off the track.

[Barry Boor]

Buford, you have a very good point there. Two in fact!

Mosport is quite difficult; the corners are very long and require later apexes than appears correct on first viewing.

I have long felt that these cars slide and spin far too easily but then if guys are getting around the 'Ring in 8 minutes and a few seconds, and Spa in 3. 20 ish, there can't be much wrong with the dynamics of the game.

Thanks to WOLF, I am learning about set ups and there is no doubt that a lot of the inherent oversteer can be removed with roll bar juggling.

THE MASTA KINK FLAT OUT? Err.... Not in this world, I say, not in this world!!! (For me anyway!)

[scags]

I've driven Watkins Glen several times( for real), but in the GPL, I still can't get through the turn at the bottom of the straight without rolling the car into the fence. I see why they changed it in real life. What you need for extra realism is someone behind you to smack you with a stick when you screw up.....

[Uwe]

Originally posted by Barry Boor
My respect for racing car drivers from the years pre-Stewart (or more correctly, pre-Stewart influence!) has always been immense. However, now that I am getting the hang of Legends, and can get a Lotus 49 around in under 3 minutes 40, that respect has grown ten-fold. I can only guess at the relief those drivers must have felt as they climbed from their cars at the end of the Belgian Grand Prix, knowing that they had survived and could go home.

Barry,

I made exactly the same observation, but with the Nurburgring. When I am driving the Ring and pushing, its so easy to get beyond the edge and crash. Thinking of Jim Clark surrounding the Green Hell in its old shape in 8:04 (and not having Shift-R available) is a frightening feeling.

Since GPL my respect for the F1 drivers of that era has grown tremendously. If someone would offer a drive in a Ferrari 312 to me and said "you have to do the same laptime for real you did in GPL" I really don't know if I would accept. Probably not.

Uwe

[Dave Wright]

Originally posted by Buford
I was surprised how hard Mosport was. I drove it in real life but in a tiddler car. Actually though, GPL is way way off on grip. The tracks are great but the cars are like driving on ice. No I never drove a 1967 GP car but I drove Formula cars about 5 years later and you could not spin them out at 35MPH no matter how hard you tried. If they could just figure out a way to give them 50% more grip, it would be much more realistic and I would actually be able to drive 2 laps in a row without flying off the track.

I agree that is how it feels. But if you look at your laps in the replay analyser you will find you can corner at around 1.4g in GPL. If you increase this by 50% as you suggest to 2.1G, you are really getting into downforce territory. And your laptimes will not be realistic.

The 65 mod may well suit you. The cars generate no more G's than the 67s but feel like they have more grip and are more forgiving.

[Wolf]

Barry, same here with Spa- no matter how much I drive it there is always a slight nervous 'trembling' on some points on the track. One learns to enjoy that sensation, but I think I'd be shaking if I were in a real car- not to mention a nervous wreck after the race... BTW, there is a splendid shot in Cruel Sport of Phil Hill's face after the Monaco race - that distinctive look of the eyes that can't blink after body has absorbed more than fair share of adrenaline (I know the feeling, it happened to me once on the road trip when I pushed car on most dangerous section far beyond any reason*, and couln't compose myself, let alone blink, for 15min after leaving the car). I still find Spa and Ring most satisfying tracks to drive on (the exploits of real drivers awe me and belittle my feeble armchair-enthusiast expirience in GPL- that's why I adore this sim). BTW, there is historically accurate Spa (much narrower and with flattened Malmedy section) in the works- I think our scary expirience will only be enhanced...

Speaking of Ring, as you-know-whos fan let me just remind of Golden Boy's four connsecutive laps in '61: 9'01.2" - 9'01.5" - 9'01.4" - 9'01.0" (the last one is his fastest of the race- it'd be interesting to compare it with 2nd best Lotus time)... Now, that's genius at work.

* if I must brag, the trip took 40min less in my tiny car (24BHP) than my friends drive in 'normal' cars, on 200km distance

[Keir]

I have spent countless hours on GPL and have been a racer in real life, but the level of traction in GPL is very close to what could really be expected. Remember, there is no direct acurate feedback in which to judge when the wheels are breaking loose, or when your roll center has gone past the "great beyond"!!!

So, GPL'ers, enjoy! They don't make them like that anymore!

[oldtimer]

I've enjoyed reading the reactions about the sensations generated by the GPL simulations. Interesting how they seem to echo some driver's reactions in the old days.

It also prompted the thought, "Where was Hermann Lang's headspace when he was timed at over 190 mph in a 1937 W125?"

[LittleChris]

Originally posted by Wolf
BTW, there is historically accurate Spa (much narrower and with flattened Malmedy section) in the works- I think our scary expirience will only be enhanced...

Any updates available on this Wolf ? I'm looking forward to a few curves after Raidillon rather than the inaccurate straight section all the way up to Haut de la Cote / Les Combes.

[Arska]

I remember reading about a real racer trying out GPL, and his complaint was that there wasn't enough grip at low speeds, but otherwise it seemed quite realistic to him.

[D-Type]

Originally posted by Arska
I remember reading about a real racer trying out GPL, and his complaint was that there wasn't enough grip at low speeds, but otherwise it seemed quite realistic to him.

Try post 5 of this thread

[Wolf]

Come to think of it, I would like to raise few points.

First, Barry, I hate it when people say they're slow- it's just that they havent realized their full potential yet (and their times are not fast, yet).;) It's not being PC: I'm a firm believer that any passionate GPLer can go 'negative'*-it's only matter of effort vs. time... You may think I'm fast Barry- but I'm far from it. Use Rank as a measure, I'm at rank -12, and there are people below -80, or that there is someone named Paul Wintrip who can lap Ring at 7:44.5, or that Leonardo Grandis holds Spa WR with 3:11.25... Mind You, rumour has it that they're aliens.

* for those 'uniniated'- that means drive all GPL tracks around benchmark times (say, 3:20.2 on Spa, 8:21.9 on Ring, 1:30.8 on Silverstone, 1:20.8 on Kyalami, &c). GPL Rank we mention is difference, in seconds, of one's aggregated time on all tracks and benchmarks- where less means better ('negative' means negative Rank).

Secondly, GPL immersion can unfortunately work the other way around...;) I believe I have already related my first expirience with GPL and wheel, when I was at friend's place. Driving home, I tried to catch the green traffic light on the intersection where I was supposed to make a turn. Normally, I don't trailbrake on the road (actually, I try to brake as little as possible- Pa Wolf once managed to make aforementioned trip without once applying brakes; something I dearly wish I could emulate), but this time I did with squeeling tyres and as I shifted down and went to throttle had to countersteer the oversteer, powering off like a madman in broad daylight! But the instant rear end started going out, I thought to myself I should adjust the rear ARB by one click down first chance I get- before the realization struck me: "You moron! You're in the real car, not in F3 Brabham, you idiot!"...

Thirdly, what do You GPLers think of this observation (the whole article is splendid read, but the very end about Monza '73)? http://forums.atlasf...205#post1249205 .

Edit:
D-Type- I think I've heard JYS said that. But I don't think it's level of grip tat seems off in GPL, but that optimal slip anfle of ~10° is constant, wheras IRL it changes with speed (smaller slip anfle at smaller speeds)- which could attribute to feeling car is having less grip than it should. The thing to bear in mind (when I speak of such matters), is that I could be likened to Sir Percy of Blackadder when comparing blueness of Infanta's eyes to that of famouls blue stone of Galvestone (having seen neither of the two)...;)

[prettyface]

Originally posted by Arska
I remember reading about a real racer trying out GPL, and his complaint was that there wasn't enough grip at low speeds, but otherwise it seemed quite realistic to him.

Buford is not alone in this. As Wolf mentioned above, Jackie Stewart has said the same thing about the low speed grip; but I believe he was quite dismissive of the game as a whole (maybe he was just being sore for not being included int he game due to his high licensing fee ;) )

It's been mentioned that Jack Babham has tried and enjoyed GPL. Maybe it was him who made the original quote? I know Emerson Fittipaldi enjoyed it a lot. The folks at hyperstim (a company that makes race simulator cockpits) used a picture of him trying their cockpit. Apparently, he came back for more and requested to try it with GPL

Oh yeah, as mentioned by Dave Wright; the 65 mod will apparently address the low speed grip in a very positive way.

[David Shaw]

Yes, I don't know if I will ever get the hang of Spa in GPL. It sure is daunting.
I have gone negative overall, but Spa is one of the 5 tracks where I am still +. Driving the Brabham exclusively to go negative didn't help on the fast circuits, and doing it as a right-foot-braker didn't help either, even if it was more appropriate for the era.

[Uwe]

Originally posted by Keir
I have spent countless hours on GPL and have been a racer in real life, but the level of traction in GPL is very close to what could really be expected. Remember, there is no direct acurate feedback in which to judge when the wheels are breaking loose, or when your roll center has gone past the "great beyond"!!!

Another point which can be misleading is the field of view, which is like looking through a wide-angle lens and which makes you feeling slower than you actually are.

Keir, what type of cars did you race and where? For me its not coming from real race cars. I have some experience in GPL and now I am starting real racing. My first race will be next weekend and it will be - guess where - in Spa. Boy, am I excited.

Uwe

[David Shaw]

Lucky Uwe.

[Pedro 917]

You can find some pictures of the old Spa track here
My brother took them on a dark & gloomy day in 1990. This should give you a pretty good idea of the race conditions in 1966....

[Pinchevsky Moshe]

Interesting reading. It's always a pleasure seeing so many people at TNF enjoying GPL.

As for Spa, it used to be my worst track except for Monaco. At first I felt I just couldn't get under 3:26 with the Ferrari. After a lot of practice I managed a one off 3:22 in qualifying for the Atlas F1 league race there. I then could not repeat it until a new member joined a different league and started doing insane times in the Ferrari. It took me a week, but I actually did a one off 3:18 in the Ferrari. As far as I can remember, I am NOT negative, although I have not updated my rank in years. My times are not great, but compatative for on-lie racing (back marker...). However, at Spa, I managed that time because I studied quick replays, took a nervous set up and most importantly, cut the fast corners sooner than what felt right. You need to cut those corners and use the dirt. After some practice you learn to be on the edge without launching yourself over the earth banks a-la poor Mike Parkes. The 3:18 was done with a lift at the Masta kink. The real difference is after Stavellot in those quick corners up hill. Anyway, knowledge is not enough in GPL. Practice is everything and now days when I get to Spa I don't know if I can do a 3:20.

Something else interesting is that there is a differnce in difficulty between Spa and the Nurburgring, that is in the mind. At Spa you've got time to prepare for the difficult fast corners. That is both easier and at the same time, more difficult than the Ring. At the ring you are cornering almost all the time, so you almost don't have enough mental capacity to get scared, but at Spa you have these long straights where you gather so much speed and have time to think about what's coming your way...

I've also found it interesting that among the wonderful original tracks, you have not mentioned Zandvoort. I find it the most FUN track to practice alone at. However, when racing on-line there, it turns into a sandy hell. Put one wheel off line at the fast corners at the back of the circuit and you are rallaying in the dunes if you're lucky, causing a huge pile up if you're not. Alone however, the fast corners with elevation changes in Zandvoort give the best sensation of speed IMHO.

[David Shaw]

I agree on Zandvoort, it was my original GPL love. But then I had learned the Nordschleife (many apologies for the spelling). I love the Nuerburgring partly because you must know it, and to know it you must first practice it. It is a labour of love.

[Uwe]

Originally posted by David Shaw
I agree on Zandvoort, it was my original GPL love. But then I had learned the Nordschleife (many apologies for the spelling). I love the Nuerburgring partly because you must know it, and to know it you must first practice it. It is a labour of love.

David, you spelled it correctly. Not Nordschliefe, Nordschlieffe and other permutations I've seen already. :

Uwe

[Bernd]

I hate Spa in GPL for the simple fact that it is so damn inaccurate. How so you ask?

1. It's to wide for the most part.
2. The scenery is totally wrong in parts, specifically around Blanchimont & Malmedy.
3. Corners.. Phew Eau Rouge is completely wrong and is based on the later realignments.
4. Blanchimont is not tight enough.
5. Malmedy is completely wrong it's far to tight in GPL
6. Masta is fairly good but very bad scenery wise, completely sparse (in common with most of the track)
7. Stavelot is totally wrong both in terms of the corner itself and the surrounds.
8. The Back stretch is not shockingly bad but is pretty bad. La Source is completely wrong though.

A chap called John Basara is currently working on a much more accurate version which I'm looking forward to very much.

[Ray Bell]

So how are Longford and Lakeside going?

[smithy]

All of the tracks in GPL are great, not the least of which are Spa, Nurburgring and Zandvoort. I also love the old Silverstone, without that stupid Stadium section between Bridge and Woodcote. Kyalami is great because it's where I went to my first GP. Mexico is terrific (even though I suck at it) because of the long T1, the old hairpin and Peralta. Monza without the chicanes. They just don't make them like that anymore.

Back on track.... Spa is frustrating because due to the high speed one small mistake screws up a hot lap. Barry, as with anything it's practice practice practice. Being able to take Eau Rouge without touching the brake; braking late into Les Combes; the light touch on the brakes into Malmedy; no brakes through Stavelot; keeping it flat through the first right hander at The Cottage; no lifting after the first left hander at Blanchimont all the way to La Source, including flat out in fourth through what is now the Bus Stop. When you get it right though.........

My thanks to Wolf for this - download the WR line and follow that. Knowing the fast line and when to brake/back off will make all the difference. I went from 3:24 to 3:18 within about 10 laps!

[Bernd]

Lakeside is finished.
Levin is finished.
Wigram is progressing superbly well.
Teretonga is in the early stages of construction.
The Farm is creeping along.
Longford is on hold due to technical difficulties.

[Keir]

UWE,
I drove Formula Vee's in the States and I'm not comparing my experience with that of GPL, but from the overall feeling the computer mods give us in the game.

[Arturo Pereira]

Originally posted by Bernd
I hate Spa in GPL for the simple fact that it is so damn inaccurate. How so you ask?

1. It's to wide for the most part.
2. The scenery is totally wrong in parts, specifically around Blanchimont & Malmedy.
3. Corners.. Phew Eau Rouge is completely wrong and is based on the later realignments.
4. Blanchimont is not tight enough.
5. Malmedy is completely wrong it's far to tight in GPL
6. Masta is fairly good but very bad scenery wise, completely sparse (in common with most of the track)
7. Stavelot is totally wrong both in terms of the corner itself and the surrounds.
8. The Back stretch is not shockingly bad but is pretty bad. La Source is completely wrong though.

A chap called John Basara is currently working on a much more accurate version which I'm looking forward to very much.

I agree that the original GPL Spa-Francorchamps is not very accurate.

John Basara is working with a factastic version of Spa (1967 layout) as well as with Monza 10k, Monza (1967 layout) and East London (1965 layout). All of them will be great tracks once released

ANd now some pictures to let many people know a bit more about GPL






















To get a good idea of how is GPL in action, then visit GPLEA and download any of their movies about the Ferrari 312, the Honda RA300 or the BRM P83 (Cars menu). The Tracks menu is also fantastic, with great recreations of Crystal Park, Snetterton, Goodwood and Solutide.
Also visit this sites Legends of '67 & '65 , GPL++ The Addons , GPL Track Database? and also RaceSim Central - GPL Forums .

[Cal]

Originally posted by prettyface
It's been mentioned that Jack Babham has tried and enjoyed GPL. Maybe it was him who made the original quote? I know Emerson Fittipaldi enjoyed it a lot. The folks at hyperstim (a company that makes race simulator cockpits) used a picture of him trying their cockpit. Apparently, he came back for more and requested to try it with GPL

If you look in the credits for GPL, Sir Jack was in the original development team.

Hyperstimulator make a series of GPL inspired cockpits. I have the Ferrari 312:

http://www.hyperstim.../ferrari67.html

Cheers,

Cal.

[Cal]

Bugger, pic didn't work, here's a link: http://www.hyperstim.../ferrari67.html

Cal.

[Wolf]

Ouch- I fear I might have bored poor ol' Barry to death... I sent him my tour of the lap of Spa (too long) and he hasn't posted since.

Bernd, maybe it's too wide, but can you imagine pickup VROC race on accurate Spa? Just for the tecord, I once had to make three Shift-Rs before T1 in a race on Silver. : I still think Papy Spa will remain my fav for a while- my poor old computer can't handle too many add-on tracks (frame rate drops to below 30, and that substantially hurts my enjoyment, not to mention times). :

Arturo, old friend- long time, no see!;) How have You been doing?

[Arjan de Roos]

Originally posted by Pedro 917
You can find some pictures of the old Spa track here
My brother took them on a dark & gloomy day in 1990. This should give you a pretty good idea of the race conditions in 1966....

What a great site Pedro. I liked the pictures from Spa very much!

[Arjan de Roos]

GPL is a very nice game but I havent found the time to get 'deep' into it. I have however been playing "The Spirit of Speed" some time.

I find many things quite basic: handling of the cars, sounds of crashes, names of opponents, tactics of fellow competitors when passing (more Italian F3 style than prewar racing...). Still it gives me a special feel playing it. Especially Tripoli and Brooklands give a realistic, even sentimental feel when playing. Even with the minus points I mentioned.

I am still disappointed that a upgraded 2nd version was not made. Also there are no add ons to be found on the net, are there?

What are your thoughts on this game? Do you still play it, or did you uninstall it years ago?

[Cal]

To be honest, I seriously hated Spirit of Speed. I bought it, loaded it and drove it for 15 minutes. Left me wondering why I had bothered. Just my opinion of course.

Cal.

[Mawerick]

I think Spirit of Speed 1957 is in the making.


Anyway, I love Spa in GPL. My fastest lap is currently 3:14.766 (with a few mistakes).

But it's an awesome feeling, a real high-speed thrill ride. Just yesterday we had a league race there, doing constant 3:17-3:18 laps, battling wheel-to-wheel

[PLAYLIFE]

I've had small stints of GPL where I get into it and play it daily for about a week, and then don't touch it for another 5 months.

After reading this thread I had to go home and drive Spa. Unfortunately I don't have a steering wheel and I can only play it on my laptop, so using F4 and F5 to brake and accelerate, F8 and F9 to steer is not really the best control set! I did a few laps without setting the car up and could only manage a 3:52. I scratched around for a downloaded setup and got my time down to a 3:36 on my first flying lap. I checked my best laps and found that a few years ago i did a 3:31.

Mawerick, please don't tell me you drive with the keyboard. I don't think I can even beat my 3:31!

[Vicuna]

Originally posted by Cal
To be honest, I seriously hated Spirit of Speed. I bought it, loaded it and drove it for 15 minutes. Left me wondering why I had bothered. Just my opinion of course.

Cal.

Cal you cannot be serious!

Apart from the banking at AVUS and all of PAU, it is brilliant!

See if you can break 44 seconds at Brooklands in the Bimotore.

[byrkus]

Originally posted by PLAYLIFE
Mawerick, please don't tell me you drive with the keyboard. I don't think I can even beat my 3:31!

Well, I still use the keyboard. My personal best at Spa is 3:23.54. Maybe I'll go and try to beat that. But, on the other hand, it's been a loong time...

[SEdward]

I have to agree with Cal about Spirit of Speed. Performance is miserable, I cannot believe that acceleration was THAT bad in the cars of the period. The circuit reproduction is very poor (an unknown hamlet suddenly appears on a lap of Montlhéry). If there's a 1957 version on the way, then I hope that it's much, much better. I'll probably buy it nervertheless.

Edward.

[PLAYLIFE]

Originally posted by byrkus


Well, I still use the keyboard. My personal best at Spa is 3:23.54. Maybe I'll go and try to beat that. But, on the other hand, it's been a loong time...

I think it's time for me to retire

[dolomite]

Originally posted by Cal


If you look in the credits for GPL, Sir Jack was in the original development team.

Hyperstimulator make a series of GPL inspired cockpits. I have the Ferrari 312:

http://www.hyperstim.../ferrari67.html

Cheers,

Cal.

Forget that, what you really need is one of these

http://www.interacti...ators/Lotus_49/

[ehagar]

Originally posted by Buford
I was surprised how hard Mosport was. I drove it in real life but in a tiddler car. Actually though, GPL is way way off on grip. The tracks are great but the cars are like driving on ice. No I never drove a 1967 GP car but I drove Formula cars about 5 years later and you could not spin them out at 35MPH no matter how hard you tried. If they could just figure out a way to give them 50% more grip, it would be much more realistic and I would actually be able to drive 2 laps in a row without flying off the track.

Yeah... I had a hard time knowing how much grip there was until I flew off the track. Too late.

I found getting a Force Feedback wheel helped quite a bit. For some reason, with FF, I had a better sensation with the front end of the cars and where the limits are. I started to trail brake better and my lap times on shorter tracks tumbled 4-5 seconds to 20-30 seconds on the longer ones.

The other thing is with braking. Racing-wheel sets don't have a progressive feel to them so I had to retain myself on how to use the brake pedal.

The good news with GPL is that it sounds like the 1965 mod has a redone tyre model and the cars behave closer to real life. The cars have less power in the 1.5 litre era but it will probably mean for better racing than the original 67 cars.

I'm more impressed with some of the add-on tracks than the original 67 tracks. I never heard of Solitude, but it is sort of a combination between the Ring and Spa... great track. Or Bremgarten. You feel like you are navigating down a narrow forrest country lane.

[Cal]

The other thing is with braking. Racing-wheel sets don't have a progressive feel to them so I had to retain myself on how to use the brake pedal.

The Hyperstimulator has a progressive brake pedal. In fact the brakes would be the best feature of the cockpit. That and the wonderful sequential shift lever designed to make the driving experience more realistic by having to remove your hand from the wheel to change gears.

Cal.

[Lutz G]

I'm into Grand Prix Legends too ;)

But I managed only to win in Monza and Spa so far. And in f3 "only"

If you haven't got a clue what GPL is about, please have a look at this movie I did of my Monza win (34 MB). And If you love GPL and groovy music from the late 60s and early 70s please check it out too...;)

http://www.alexa-sik...ie/gplmonza.mpg

BTW: Here's a spa (old/new comparison) map:



Lutz

[Barry Boor]

......and if you are looking for a smaller scale alternative to Spa, try downloading St. Jovite!

[Buford]

St Jovite like Mosport is one of the few I drove in real life. But unlike Mosport, I can do that one pretty well.

[Barry Boor]

St Jovite....I drove in real life.

Really, Buford? So, how does the Legends version compare?