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#1 stavelot

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Posted 30 March 2004 - 21:08

Hallo,

I'm missing my favourite site

f1experts.tomsku.ru

with gorgeous pics.

Does anybody know what happened with this site.

Many thanks

Stavelot

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#2 Paul Taylor

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Posted 30 March 2004 - 21:41

Someone uploaded a HUGE file to the server, and after that it slowed down and slowed down and slowed down...then went offline! All the pictures were stolen from other sites anyway; mostly Motor Racing Retro...which was a GREAT source of images...Now both are gone :cry:

#3 Kvadrat

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Posted 31 March 2004 - 02:03

I am responsible for the site. That was my personal 18 GB HDD installed at local internet providers' server. Since 2001 I've been searching for various motorsport information and downloading a lot of pictures which is great help in my historical researches.

The idea of the site was to share the information with limited number of fellow Russian historians and for some time in the beginning nobody except them used the site. When I learned much on motorsport history I started participation in TNF discussions and actively used pictures from f1archive.tomsk.ru to illustrate my opinions.

People know how to find picture's source - you have just to copy full link from pictures properties and delete picture's name. This will lead you to source folder. I think many forums readers did this way and found my pictures and videos archive. I never promoted the site and was very surprised learning from server administrator that traffic is huge and they are going to close the site. Then someone gave me links to some forums discusions on my archive. And I realized how much people used it.

I know that almost all of these pictures are copyrighted. And I guess I'm boycotted here at TNF by leading it's members because of my archive. Or is it paranoia?

I used to ask questions mostly on pictures identification and best TNFers answered them. I highly appreciated their help. Now nobody doesn't and this happened suddenly.

May be my questions are not interesting or too difficult. But if this is because of my site I'd like to apologise and ask for advise. How can I legally use copyrighted pictures to illustrate my questions and opinions?

#4 David Hyland

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Posted 31 March 2004 - 03:38

Originally posted by Paul Taylor
...mostly Motor Racing Retro...which was a GREAT source of images...Now both are gone :cry:

What happened to Motor Racing Retro? I went looking for it a couple of weeks ago, but I wasn't 100% sure about the name - I nearly went insane trying to find it.

#5 eldougo

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Posted 31 March 2004 - 10:55

:wave:

F1experts------ We have BillWoods on Channel 10 he thinks he an F1 expert :rotfl:
There is an old saying X is and unknown quanity & spert is a drop of water.

#6 D-Type

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Posted 31 March 2004 - 11:17

Originally posted by Kvadrat
~ I know that almost all of these pictures are copyrighted.
~ How can I legally use copyrighted pictures to illustrate my questions and opinions?

I leave that one for the moderator to answer.
I believe there is a difference between copying for research and publishing for gain. It also helps to quote the source.

~ And I guess I'm boycotted here at TNF by leading it's members because of my archive. Or is it paranoia?

I think it must be paranoia - there's certainly no reason for anyone to boycott you

~I used to ask questions mostly on pictures identification and best TNFers answered them. I highly appreciated their help. Now nobody doesn't and this happened suddenly.

Maybe my questions are not interesting or too difficult. But if this is because of my site I'd like to apologise and ask for advise.

I find the size of your postings a problem. The pictures take an age to unload and sometimes the computer can't handle it and shows some as red dots. Fewer pictures in one posting, possibly at a lower resolution, would be a great help.

Some of your questions are very difficult to resolve and I think even the experts here don't know.

Keep on posting

#7 Kvadrat

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Posted 01 April 2004 - 02:09

Thank you, D-Type. There were several threads on pictures and copyrights but every person always think his situation is special. If I find another place for uploading of my archive, will best TNFers blame it?

This time access won't be free (not for money but only for fellow historians) and I'd like to use it as always for giving direct links in forums.


eldougo, I'm not real expert comparing to many TNF's real experts but for Russia my knowledge is quite good. Being behind the Iron Curtain for decades Soviet Union did not get much information on world's motor sports. We're now trying hard to close the gap.

The site had two names: f1experts and f1archive. The first one was original and appeared when I planned to create Russian historic discussion forum. There were some technical problems with forum and we closed it. Since then I used mainly f1archive name.

#8 DoubleFault

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Posted 01 April 2004 - 04:43

I'm not real expert comparing to many TNF's real experts but for Russia my knowledge is quite good. Being behind the Iron Curtain for decades Soviet Union did not get much information on world's motor sports. We're now trying hard to close the gap.



Kvadrat,

I also was “behind the Iron Curtain for decades” too. Nevertheless, your position that “my knowledge is quite good for Russia, but I am not really good expert” seems strange to me. Are you knowledge quite good for Western Samoa, for instance?

Iron Curtain falls, thanks God, 15 years ago. I suppose that now our hard childhood behind the Iron Curtain can hardly justify the lack of appropriate knowledge. It’s some kind of “Soviet inferiority complex” and there is no basis for it in your case. For more that 10 years here in Russia we have access to the same sources of information as the rest of the world. And even living in the Soviet Union one could find opportunity to obtain information on past and present of motor racing in the world. I know this on my own experience. The individual level of knowledge is purely individual issue, not (much) depending on place where you live.

Sorry for moralizing, but plea like “I am from Russia, so treat me another way” always irritates me.

#9 Kvadrat

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Posted 02 April 2004 - 03:27

Vadim, I think eldougo just joked and I got this joke too seriously and tried to explain origin of f1experts name. And I'm afraid you understand my explanation wrong.

Look at the window. Snow is melting and we think it's hot for our Siberian early spring. But there's snow! Is it really hot for Western Samoa? Remember anecdote about "green" and "white" Russian winter? Russian summer is green winter for African student. We always smile watching on TV snowfalls problems in Europe or America because we live in these conditions a half of every year. But people there don't smile, they are very serious.

You help is great for me and I would be far behind without it. I've been learning very much since you started helping me and now I can tell you something new, but we have to confess we are both just amateurs comparing to writers of books we read. And this is not humiliating. Just understanding that the road is long.

Yes, now we can get foreign magazines. I have good collection of Russian ones. It's simple to buy it now. But where can you find them ten years later? Our librares don't subscribe or buy them. It was simple for people in 50s to buy magazines of their time. And there're collections of such a priceless information sources in the world. But not here. Well, we can collect money and buy used books and magazines. But can we buy for money Doug Nye's vision of motorsports' inside? We miss this vision of great old persons because when they saw races, talked to drivers and drove racing cars themselves we heard from our media mainly little news on cruel and rotten Westren world.

Yes, I'm expecting a little bit special treatment until I completely understand what and how to do. But I never said something like this: "I'm little poor motor sports enthusiast from poor Russia. Ple-e-e-ase let me be pirate and share copyrighted information with others." I'm going to do right and expect someone explain me if I do wrong. Is it bad? And is it possible?

I have some great books and gigabytes of various information, but I have not that feeling I'm looking for. I'm sure people living in Western Europe are inside this top motorsports world and they feel this world in special way. How much people here don't think of motorsport in 50s through todays situation? I mean many of local F1 "experts" still know only so called WDC races and are not interested in so called "non championship" events. They divide drivers to F1 and non-F1 ones. If some unknown amateur entered WDC race he is real F1 driver. If some driver didn't score a point he's bad driver. And it doesn't matter if he liked sport cars and was good endurance competitor. He must be bad F1 driver.

It's wrong, but we can't feel it. Most of present F1 fans can't feel all F1 taste having only TV, Internet and a couple of magazines. Journalists say Bernie made F1 a closed world. I guess even paddock access don't give real opportunily to understand what is going on.

The only way to feel it is to learn and learn more. And we are still far behind. And we still need some help. That's why I ask my "too difficult" questions. Ironically words "too difficult questions" mean that we CAN answer "simple" questions and I must calm and just do my best.

#10 Frank de Jong

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Posted 02 April 2004 - 06:53

I too miss Motor Racing Retro, but this site consisted of many stolen images too - without reference to the original source.
For my own site, I've taken a different route - I ask for amateur pictures (and their permission) and put them on the site, including the names of the people who helped me. Many people from all over the world are glad to help, going as far as sending a CD full of pictures.

And what's more, the pictures are unique most of the time and tend to include the lesser-known competitors as well - and that's most interesting for research.

#11 uechtel

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Posted 02 April 2004 - 07:46

Originally posted by Kvadrat

I have some great books and gigabytes of various information, but I have not that feeling I'm looking for. I'm sure people living in Western Europe are inside this top motorsports world and they feel this world in special way. How much people here don't think of motorsport in 50s through todays situation? I mean many of local F1 "experts" still know only so called WDC races and are not interested in so called "non championship" events. They divide drivers to F1 and non-F1 ones. If some unknown amateur entered WDC race he is real F1 driver. If some driver didn't score a point he's bad driver. And it doesn't matter if he liked sport cars and was good endurance competitor. He must be bad F1 driver.


Kvadrat, I really don´t think the "western world" is so much ahead with that. The fact, that Formula 1 started in 1991 is common knowledge here and only a small group of absolutely weird people try to destroy Michael Schumacher´s glory of being the only great driver ever and tell such nonsense as, that there has been top motor racing already before the last decade.

Perhaps the situation is a little bit better in the UK?

And let me tell you, the greatest advantage of TNF is, that it brings people together from ALL places of the world, as no single person and not even a separate region is able to have a "full" picture of motor racing. Since I am here I have enjoyed so many valuable contributions from people from behind the former iron curtain, who have an impressive knowledge and who were in many cases the only help. Also there has been an interesting scene there of which I know as much as of the Indy history or the Japanese Formula 2 (means: almost nothing) and is always a pleasure to read information about that. And I also enjoy threads like that of your fifties X-pics very much.

So keep on posting :up:

And don´t be too much disappointed if not every question finds an answer. I think, many of us here had already such experience and it is only proof, that nobody here can know everything. And perhaps the TNF is the wrong place to ask very special questions on last week´s Grand Prix...

#12 Vitesse2

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Posted 02 April 2004 - 09:29

Vladimir, can I just reinforce what D-Type, Frank and uechtel have said. You are a valued poster here, but you have perhaps been a bit naive in putting all your pictures up on the net - and laudably, unlike Franco, you have not sought (AFAIK) to profit from other people's work and images. I too enjoyed your X-Pics and spent some time working on the first couple of lots - the last set were so obscure that I (and probably others) had to admit defeat!

Until I found TNF, I thought I was pretty well-informed about the history of our sport - I now realise just how much I didn't know! I learn something new every day: as we all do. In return, I try to put something back in ....

#13 stavelot

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Posted 02 April 2004 - 23:26

Originally posted by Frank de Jong
I too miss Motor Racing Retro, but this site consisted of many stolen images too - without reference to the original source.
For my own site, I've taken a different route - I ask for amateur pictures (and their permission) and put them on the site, including the names of the people who helped me. Many people from all over the world are glad to help, going as far as sending a CD full of pictures.

And what's more, the pictures are unique most of the time and tend to include the lesser-known competitors as well - and that's most interesting for research.


I'm disappointed about this discussion.

What do you mean with "stolen"?

My understanding of the internet is that you can use the data (incl. pics) for your private (non commercial!) purposes.

Is it important if Kvadrat post a pic copied from the not more existing public site like Motor Racing Retro or if he scaned it from any magazine?

The site owner don't want to give free acces to their contents may use the access resticted sites.

#14 Vitesse2

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Posted 02 April 2004 - 23:46

Stavelot: there have been several discussions here about MRR. Franco Varani spent years trawling the web and lifted many pictures from other sites, lots of them copyright. Had he contented himself with just putting them on a website, then probably no-one would really have complained. Unfortunately, he then proceeded to produce CDs for sale, in order to finance the site: then, unsurprisingly, he found himself being undercut by people who had made and were selling illegal copies of his original illegal CDs!

He's not a popular chap around here .... :rolleyes:

Kvadrat, OTOH, has, as I said above, been more naive than anything else. He has not sought to profit from the pictures, nor has he (as I believe Franco did) attempted to claim copyright on images he doesn't own. As he has pointed out, his site was essentially private, but the number of images he has posted here and elsewhere means that you and many others have explored his archive. Once he can sort out his access criteria I'm sure he will make the images available again.

#15 rgsuspsa

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Posted 03 April 2004 - 00:14

This topic is descending into a contest. If certain persons are pilfering materials, stop.
No more discussion necessary.

R. Sparks

#16 Kvadrat

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Posted 05 April 2004 - 09:53

Thank you all for support. I hope next set of the X-Pics will be easier.

#17 Frank de Jong

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Posted 05 April 2004 - 10:00

Originally posted by stavelot


What do you mean with "stolen"?


With "stolen" I mean that no permission of me was asked AND no reference to the original source was made - I discovered my own images on another site.
Copyright is a grey area on the internet but at least we can be polite to each other - at least ask if you use anyone's pictures.