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#1 Nanni Dietrich

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Posted 31 March 2004 - 16:44

I have found different names probably for the same driver.

I'm talkin' about "His Serene Highness Prince Max zu Schaumburg-Lippe ", as wrote the page http://user.tninet.s...iq291w/1939.htm , that was classified 5th at Le Mans 24 Hours 1939 with German co-driver Fritz-Hans Wenscher on a BMW 328 Touring Coupè.

The same Prince (and the same BMW?) just an year before, arrived 3th at Spa-Francorchamps 24 Hours 1938, with other German co-driver Ralf Roese, and I presume Prince Max is also the same that was classified 6th at the 1926 Grosser Preis Von Deutschland at Avus Circuit, driving an italian OM, (13 years before!)

Now, in some other fonts I have found for 1939 Le Mans 24 Hours, the name Paul Schaumburg-Lippe, or the name Max von Schaumburg-Lippe.
Is he an other driver? Or are Paul and Max brothers? Or was the complete name Paul-Max? :confused:

And then (an OT question only for german friends ;) ) what's the difference between zu and von before the surname?

Thanks.
:)

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#2 dbw

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Posted 31 March 2004 - 17:58

quite interesting to see some of these chaps in the class of '39....

Rob Walker...went on to a great career in...well,...hell, let's just have a drink to him.[perhaps two]

Veyron...now with a [truly mythical] german supercar named in his honor.

Gordini....made a few good [real]supercars himself..

B.Bira....more royalty-in-motorsportsport.[also brought rodents to the world of racing.]

Luigi Chinetti....went on to become a pretty damn good car salesman.

Pierre Levegh....singlehandedly put racing in the media in a big way.

Baron Von Hanstein....became very involved in the air-cooled car business.

i'm sure i missed a few....;)

#3 David McKinney

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Posted 31 March 2004 - 18:30

Wilhelm Eugen Georg Constantin Maximilian zu Schaumburg-Lippe - nope, can't see a Paul there anywhere :lol:
I have only ever seen reference to one Schaumburg-Lippe racing at that time

#4 RTH

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Posted 31 March 2004 - 19:10

Anyone got anything on ex- German Royal family member - Prince Nicholas Von Preussen he raced FF and F3 in the 70's I have a particular local interest as the family lived about a mile from where I am sitting now at that time and I would like to put a little Biog on our village website.

#5 uechtel

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Posted 31 March 2004 - 22:04

Originally posted by Nanni Dietrich

And then (an OT question only for german friends ;) ) what's the difference between zu and von before the surname?

[/B]


translated literally "von" = "of" and "zu" = "at".

I think this varies quite freely (perhaps regionally) and there is even the variation "von und zu".


And even with the nobility abolished since some 85 years now in Germany we still have our problems to handle that issue properly:

http://www.rechtsanw...rg-lippe_84.pdf

http://www.rechtsanw...ippe_replik.pdf

http://www.rechtsanw....de/presse.html

(everything in German of course)

#6 bobbo

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Posted 31 March 2004 - 22:31

Originally posted by dbw
quite interesting to see some of these chaps in the class of '39....

Rob Walker...went on to a great career in...well,...hell, let's just have a drink to him.[perhaps two] . . .


. . . and make those drinks GOOD SCOTCH, too! (Wonder what brand?)

Bobbo

#7 GIGLEUX

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Posted 31 March 2004 - 23:13

I read somewhere that the "zu" were of older and higher nobility than the "von". Exact?

#8 Nanni Dietrich

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Posted 01 April 2004 - 08:50

You can found a "Paul" von Schaumburg-Lippe (with an important "?" :p ) in this page: http://www.teamquail...gister/1939.htm
I don't know what is correct. Perhaps the complete name Wilhelm Eugen Georg Constantin Maximilian zu Schaumburg-Lippe, DavidMcKinney posted is the best...

About "zu" and "von", I think is the same of italian "de/di" or "De/Di": for example we know De Cesaris, or De Angelis, or De Simone, and these are common italian surnames (not from Nobility!), but also Luca Cordero di Montezemolo, or Fabrizio Serena di Lapigio, that means an aristhocratic family origin or a title of nobility. I don't know if it's all clear...

For me there is still a doubt: in alphabetical order how can I list the names?
Von Schaumburg-Lippe (and Von Stuck, Von Bayern, Von Gartzen, Von Brauchitsch, etc...) under the "V" letter? and zu Schaumburg-Lippe or zu Leiningen under "Z"?
I say, is the complete surname Von Stuck or zu Leiningen more correct than Stuck and Leiningen?
In Italy we have Andrea De Cesaris or Fabrizio De Simone under "D", and Luca di Montezemolo usually under "M" :drunk:

Perhaps is the same problem for Dutch "Van" (Van Lennep, Van Amersfoors, Van Der Merwe, etc.), or British "Mac" or "Mc"???
:confused:
I don't know...


Thanks again, guys...
:)

#9 David McKinney

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Posted 01 April 2004 - 09:11

Some lists show Continental surnames one way, some another, especially in the era when more and more are compiled by computer programs
Personally, I would always list von Brauchitsch under the 'B's and so on. You could show it as Brauchitsch, Manfred von, or von Brauchitsch, Manfred. Again, from personal choice, I wouild go for the last example
British telephone directories always used to list names beginning with 'Mac' and 'Mc' together on the basis that people mightn't know if they were looking for Macdonald, MacDonald or McDonald. The were (and are) always under 'M', as they're each only one word - which is different from the Continental model
Furthermore, they used to be listed at the start of the 'M' section, though - again - computer programs don't allow for this, so they could be anywhere....

#10 uechtel

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Posted 01 April 2004 - 11:41

Originally posted by Nanni Dietrich
You can found a "Paul" von Schaumburg-Lippe (with an important "?" :p ) in this page: http://www.teamquail...gister/1939.htm
I don't know what is correct. Perhaps the complete name Wilhelm Eugen Georg Constantin Maximilian zu Schaumburg-Lippe, DavidMcKinney posted is the best...

AFAIK it´s also Fritz Wencher (not Wenscher) and I think this error is originating from this picture (to be found in the BMW Historisches Archiv ) on which his name is typed wrong.

But if you use the search function you will find the results using "Wencher", which is also common use in the literature, so I think this way it is correct.

About "zu" and "von", I think is the same of italian "de/di" or "De/Di": for example we know De Cesaris, or De Angelis, or De Simone, and these are common italian surnames (not from Nobility!), but also Luca Cordero di Montezemolo, or Fabrizio Serena di Lapigio, that means an aristhocratic family origin or a title of nobility. I don't know if it's all clear...

Sometimes the "von" is (or better was) indication of nobility and sometimes it is not. In particular in the northern parts of Germany the "von" was often only to indicate the origin of a familiy.

For me there is still a doubt: in alphabetical order how can I list the names?
Von Schaumburg-Lippe (and Von Stuck, Von Bayern, Von Gartzen, Von Brauchitsch, etc...) under the "V" letter? and zu Schaumburg-Lippe or zu Leiningen under "Z"?

"Mathematically" (or juristically) correct would most probably be to list "von Brauchitsch, Manfred", as since the official "abolition" of nobility at the end of the German Empire 1919 the "von" and "zu" is no longer sign of nobility, but has been turned simply into a part of the surname only. But for means of better practicability in lists and telephone books the "Brauchitsch, Manfred von" is preferred, probably to avoid the endless "von" list or perhaps also because of the danger of mismatching "von" and "zu".

Also still today many people with some kind of "nostalgic" touch try to introduce new "rules" how to treat nobility titles, and that often with some success. By searching for the answers to this thread I found also discussions whether a Baron should be talked to as "Baron von Thisandthis" or "Mr. Baron von Thisandthis". Of course if the "title" is only a part of the name now the latter should be the correct one.

Also in an international list (of drivers for example) you might get problems with such countries, in which nobility is still "officially" in place. Hence you might have to tret them differently:

Bagration, Jorge de
von Bayern, Leopold

???

:drunk:

So I think the best is to find the way that suits your own purposes.

I say, is the complete surname Von Stuck...

Stop!!! :eek:

Please no [b]von
Stuck any more!!! Always Hans Stuck only! Otherwise you would have to list his son as Hans-Joachim von Stuck either and I don´t think he had ever a name change.


And Jean-Maurice,

Originally posted by GIGLEUX
I read somewhere that the "zu" were of older and higher nobility than the "von". Exact?

Interesting theory, but if so I would have expected "zu Preußen" and "zu Bayern" instead of "von" as these seem to be the highest possible "ranks".

And in spite of having done some research about this today I did not find any confirmation or any other systematical explanation for the difference. :

#11 Vitesse2

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Posted 01 April 2004 - 11:53

Originally posted by uechtel


Stop!!! :eek:

Please no von Stuck any more!!! Always Hans Stuck only! Otherwise you would have to list his son as Hans-Joachim von Stuck either and I don´t think he had ever a name change.

We've been this way before, but it bears repeating, to try to stamp it out! For some reason the British press started referring to him as "Hans von Stuck" in the 30s - I think Rodney Walkerley of The Motor may be the original culprit, but it might be Sammy Davis of The Autocar. "Von Stuck" persists in a lot of subsequent literature, so it passed into more common usage than it deserved in English-language sources.

There's a similar situation with "Raph", who is often referred to (totally incorrectly) as "George Raph".

#12 David McKinney

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Posted 01 April 2004 - 12:21

Did he not race as "Georges Raph"?
Or are you making the point that George is wrong but Georges is right?

#13 Vitesse2

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Posted 01 April 2004 - 12:33

No, he raced as "Raph". No "George" or "Georges".

"There remains one footnote to the life of Raph : tha fact that many motor racing histories, and indeed many journalistic articles during his lifetime have assigned him the forename "Georges". Why this is remains obscure : it might be some unintentional confusion with the name of the actor, George Raft. What is certain is that Raph annotated a newspaper cutting in his personal scrapbook with the following words: "I do not know why, in North and South America, "Georges" is added as forename before "Raph". When I point this out, journalists reply that they add this forename when they have no others to put! As for Gordini, he insisted until his death on calling him "Ralf".

from: Jean-Pierre Wimille: A Bientot La Revanche by JM Paris & WD Mearns, page 181 (English translation by Felix Muelas of original French text)

:)

#14 Nanni Dietrich

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Posted 01 April 2004 - 12:52

Originally posted by Nanni Dietrich


For me there is still a doubt: in alphabetical order how can I list the names?
Von Schaumburg-Lippe (and Von Stuck , Von Bayern, Von Gartzen, Von Brauchitsch, etc...) under the "V" letter?


I wrote Von Stuck only to have your reaction... :cool:

:rotfl:

I knew Mr. Hans Stuck wasn't discendent of a noble german family (I think he was born in Austria???), he had the "von" added to surname AFTER his motorsport success.

Sorry, I'm trying to be funny ;)

Italian driver Giovanni Lavaggi is a Baron. In the past there were a lot of Nobility sons in motorsport.

Other question: ant what about the British Lords?
Again at the Le Mans 24 Hours I have found two names of winners written as:
Lord Howe (1931)
and
Lord Selsdon (1949)
without other names or surnames (perhaps Lord Howe's first name is Earl?)

#15 Vitesse2

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Posted 01 April 2004 - 13:01

Originally posted by Nanni Dietrich


I wrote Von Stuck only to have your reaction... :cool:

:rotfl:

I knew Mr. Hans Stuck wasn't discendent of a noble german family (I think he was born in Austria???)


Poland, actually. But it was part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire at the time.

Originally posted by Nanni Dietrich
Other question: ant what about the British Lords?
Again at the Le Mans 24 Hours I have found two names of winners written as:
Lord Howe (1931)
and
Lord Selsdon (1949)
without other names or surnames (perhaps Lord Howe's first name is Earl?)


Nope, his first name was Francis. There's no hard and fast rule on this as regards the British aristocracy. In some cases the surname is the same as the name in the title, in others it's different.

#16 uechtel

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Posted 01 April 2004 - 14:33

Originally posted by Vitesse2


Poland, actually. But it was part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire at the time.


Wasn´t it Warsaw?

If so then it was of course part of the Russian empire.

But I think nothing in his biography has ever been easy...

Here is a biography: http://www.ddavid.co...mula1/stuck.htm

and here another "von Stuck" appearance: http://www.f1total.c...tails.php?d=655

so the question is where does that "Villiez" come from?


Nope, his first name was Francis. There's no hard and fast rule on this as regards the British aristocracy. In some cases the surname is the same as the name in the title, in others it's different. [/B]


and I believe Lord Peter Selsdon. Right?

#17 Nanni Dietrich

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Posted 01 April 2004 - 15:15

From
http://user.tninet.s...iq291w/1931.htm
I found: Lord Howe (5th Earl Howe, Edward Richard Francis Assheton, Viscount Curzon),

and from
http://user.tninet.s...iq291w/1949.htm
I found: Lord Selsdon, (Hon. Peter Mitchell-Thompson)


uuhmmm...

In some old reports the Targa Florio 1921-1922 winner Giulio Masetti was simply listed as Count Masetti. Probably in more of a language the nobility title is the same than a name.

#18 Vitesse2

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Posted 01 April 2004 - 15:34

Originally posted by uechtel


Wasn´t it Warsaw?

If so then it was of course part of the Russian empire.


:blush: He was Austrian though!

Nanni:

Howe's official title was Earl Howe, since this was the most senior title. He was also Viscount Curzon, but Earls outrank Viscounts, so he used the more important one. His family name was Assheton: I'm not sure of the family history, but this would presumably mean that at some point a commoner, or knight, or more minor noble called Assheton was ennobled as the first Earl Howe. Colloquially, our man would technically have been Francis Assheton, but in practice he would have been known as Francis Howe, otherwise no-one would have known who was being referred to!

Stefan's reference to Selsdon is wrong, though, since he would have dropped "Honourable" from his name when he succeeded to the title. "Honourable" is a courtesy title extended to the eldest son of a peer.

#19 Nanni Dietrich

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Posted 01 April 2004 - 16:17

Thanks Vitesse2 (I have a golden tiepin like your TN Turtle!) :)

Do you know the grat italian actor called Totò? He is an italian legend, perhaps one of the greatest comic actors in Italy. He was born in 1898 (the same age of Enzo Ferrari!) in Naples, he was a no-father child (I don't know the correct word, perhaps abandoned child), his complete name was Antonio Clemente. When he becoma an actor he assumed the name-nickname of Totò. He was so famous in Italy than they used his name in the title of a lot of movies for more appeal ("Totò a Parigi", "Totò sceicco", "Totò, Peppino e la malafemmina"... and now all the italian friend in TNF are laughing... :rotfl: ).
In 1945 he won the civil suit and the Law Court gave him back the complete name of his natural father: Antonio Griffo Focas Flavio Dicas Commeno Porfirogenito Gagliardi De Curtis di Bisanzio,altezza imperiale,conte palatino,cavaliere del sacro Romano Impero,esarca di Ravenna,duca di Macedonia e di Illiria,principe di Costantinopoli,di Cicilia,di Tessaglia,di Ponte di Moldavia,di Dardania,del Peloponneso,conte di Cipro e di Epiro,conte e duca di Drivasto e Durazzo
But for us and for all the world he remains just Totò!

:)

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#20 conjohn

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Posted 01 April 2004 - 17:23

Originally posted by Vitesse2
Howe's official title was Earl Howe, since this was the most senior title. He was also Viscount Curzon, but Earls outrank Viscounts, so he used the more important one. His family name was Assheton: I'm not sure of the family history, but this would presumably mean that at some point a commoner, or knight, or more minor noble called Assheton was ennobled as the first Earl Howe. Colloquially, our man would technically have been Francis Assheton, but in practice he would have been known as Francis Howe, otherwise no-one would have known who was being referred to!

Wasn't his totally lovely daughter known as Lady Sarah Curzon before she became Sally Courage? Or should she have been Lady Sarah Assheton?

#21 Vitesse2

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Posted 01 April 2004 - 20:52

Sorry - posted the above in a hurry. Assheton appears to be his fourth forename. Curzon is indeed the family name, so before succeeding to the title in 1929 he would probably have been known as The Honourable Francis Curzon (unless he had another minor title - these things get bloody complicated!)

#22 uechtel

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Posted 01 April 2004 - 21:04

Originally posted by Vitesse2


:blush: He was Austrian though!


And really sorry, I have even my deep doubts about that. At least never a "proper" Austrian nationality.

Having now become curious I hav done a little deeper investigation on him today. Here is what I have found.

His grandfather had been of Swiss nationality and his name had been "Stucki", but had dropped the "i" to make the name sound more "German" when he moved to Germany.

And then I also did a quick read across his biography "Der Bergkönig erzählt", which has been printed as a series of stories in the East German magazine "Illustrierter Motorpsort" in 1953/54.

He was born on a journey of his parents to Poland, where his father, Wilhelm Stuck, had a branch of his sewing-silk factory.

Interesting to read this I learn, that the former name of his mother had been Maria von Villiez, so this seems to be the reason for the usage of the "von" on some occasions.

Other than that the family lived at Waldkirch near Freiburg in the Southwest of Germany (not far from Switzerland) and also the Villiez family seems to be from the Mannheim or Rastatt area, so no Austrian nationality by birth, which is confirmed by the following passage (about 1946):

"Of course Stuck wanted to take part in racing again, which was not possible as long as he remained German, because Germans could not get a license. Also he had to move away from the new Austria, as the community of St. Anton did not give land to him (to build up a workshop) as he was German. So he had to return to his home country.
By accident he made a halt on his way home at Grainau, where he remained and set foot.
[...]
The new Italian company Cisitalia had developed a new 1100 cc race car. Porsche was about to design a Grand Prix car for the company and they were looking for a world class driver. Stuck was in the choice, but he was German, hence without a license. But he was again lucky. In 1929 and 1930 he had won the European [mountain] Championship for Austro Daimler and to thank him for this he had been granted Austrian natinality "honoris causa". This was new reason for Stuck´s hopes and he began negotiations with the clubs and the government and indeed he was granted the Austrian license No.1. Right from the beginning he was stating, that he would use that only for the time until he would be able to get a German license again."

So if the text is telling the truth I understand, that he had only some kind of a "semi-nationality" in Austria and was driving with Austrian license from 1947 to 1949. All the rest he was always full-time German.

#23 David McKinney

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Posted 01 April 2004 - 21:29

Originally posted by Vitesse2
Sorry - posted the above in a hurry. Assheton appears to be his fourth forename. Curzon is indeed the family name, so before succeeding to the title in 1929 he would probably have been known as The Honourable Francis Curzon (unless he had another minor title - these things get bloody complicated!)

No, no Richard!
He started racing as Viscount Curzon, then as Earl Howe from 1929
A bit like the Earl of March, who uses his father's second title but will in due course become the Duke of Richmond and Gordon
To confuse matters further, I thought Earl Howe's family name was Penn - can't check at the moment

#24 Tim Murray

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Posted 02 April 2004 - 10:03

According to my old (1995) edition of Who's Who, the holder of the title at that time (and I believe still) was Frederick Richard Penn Curzon, Baron Howe, Baron Curzon, Viscount Curzon and Earl Howe. He has no sons, so the heir to the titles is his cousin, Charles Mark Penn Curzon. If he had sons, the eldest would take the title Viscount Curzon.

Similarly, the current Marquess of Bute, who succeeded his father in 1993, was previously known as Johnny (Earl of) Dumfries. The current Earl of Dumfries is Johnny's son.

#25 Nanni Dietrich

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Posted 02 April 2004 - 10:41

So... probably titles of nobility open doors of motorsports career...;)

Consequence (last question): what is the poorest driver even arrived in the Olympus?
Without noble (and rich) family, without bank or industry family, no money and chance: only talent, a poor boy on top.

I remember Nelson Piquet sleeping at circuit into the van of Team Ravarotto... the Andretti brothers emigrants with family in America from Trieste-Italy in the late 40s... Siegfried Stohr that arrived to european circuits to run with the Arrows F. 1 from home driving his own Alfasud... young teenagers from Brazil Felipe Massa or Marco Campos living at Adriano and Nadia Morini (Team Draco's owners) home... perhaps the list of desperados is longer than the rich drivers one... :)

#26 Vitesse2

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Posted 04 September 2004 - 22:33

Originally posted by Vitesse2
There's a similar situation with "Raph", who is often referred to (totally incorrectly) as "George Raph".

.... or, in a source I came across today "Bodoignet Raph" :confused:

To be precise, the Motor Sport report of the 1938 Donington GP, where the two Ecurie Bleue Delahaye drivers are referred to as "René Dreyfus and Bodoignet Raph".

An Auguste Bodoignet raced at Le Mans from 1932 to 1935. Some Le Mans results sources give his name as "R Bodoignet". Auguste Bodoignet also competed in the 1100cc Picardie GP in 1932.

So, was "Auguste Bodoignet" actually another nom de course of Sr de los Casas?

#27 Muzza

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Posted 05 September 2004 - 01:05

Pardon my ignorance, Vitesse, but should I write Lord Howe or Earl Howe?

I am divided between these two forms - and I fear that calling him Lord Earl Howe, as many non-British publications do, is incorrect...

Thanks for clarifying,


Muzza

P.S.: Judging by a few books I have in front of me right now, I am confident a number of people believe Earl was his first name.

#28 fines

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Posted 05 September 2004 - 09:29

Francis Penn.

#29 Vitesse2

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Posted 05 September 2004 - 10:07

Originally posted by fines
Francis Penn.

No, Michael. If you're seeking to omit the title it's either Francis Howe (as per Sheldon) or - before he succeeded to the earldom - Francis Curzon.

Originally posted by muzza
Pardon my ignorance, Vitesse, but should I write Lord Howe or Earl Howe?

Both are correct. If you wish to indicate just that he was an aristo then call him "Lord Howe". If you want to indicate his rank within the aristocracy, then it's "Earl Howe". I'd recommend the former as you would then get into problems with titles like the Earl of March (see above!) - it's just as correct to call him "Lord March".

Originally posted by muzza
I am divided between these two forms - and I fear that calling him Lord Earl Howe, as many non-British publications do, is incorrect...

It is totally incorrect!

#30 GIGLEUX

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Posted 05 September 2004 - 10:12

Francis Richard Henry Penn Curzon 5th Earl Howe (1884-1964)

#31 Stefan Ornerdal

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Posted 05 September 2004 - 11:45

So, to make it right in my Le Mans files, should I list his name as:

Lord Howe (Frederick Richard Penn Curzon, Baron Howe, Baron Curzon, Viscount Curzon and Earl Howe)

:confused:

Stefan von Ornerdal zu Le Mans Register

#32 GIGLEUX

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Posted 05 September 2004 - 12:03

Stephan, it is Francis; Frederik is born in 1951!

#33 Muzza

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Posted 05 September 2004 - 15:13

Originally posted by Vitesse2

No, Michael. If you're seeking to omit the title it's either Francis Howe (as per Sheldon) or - before he succeeded to the earldom - Francis Curzon.


Both are correct. If you wish to indicate just that he was an aristo then call him "Lord Howe". If you want to indicate his rank within the aristocracy, then it's "Earl Howe". I'd recommend the former as you would then get into problems with titles like the Earl of March (see above!) - it's just as correct to call him "Lord March".

It is totally incorrect!


Thanks, Vitesse.

#34 Vitesse2

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Posted 02 July 2005 - 22:17

Hmm ... back to Stuck. In "Bugatti Queen", his entry in Hellé-Nice's address book is quoted as:

"Hans von Stuck von Villiez and Paula"

Contemporary source and personal friend ....;)

#35 Vitesse2

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Posted 10 November 2005 - 22:52

Originally posted by Vitesse2

.... or, in a source I came across today "Bodoignet Raph" :confused:

To be precise, the Motor Sport report of the 1938 Donington GP, where the two Ecurie Bleue Delahaye drivers are referred to as "René Dreyfus and Bodoignet Raph".

An Auguste Bodoignet raced at Le Mans from 1932 to 1935. Some Le Mans results sources give his name as "R Bodoignet". Auguste Bodoignet also competed in the 1100cc Picardie GP in 1932.

So, was "Auguste Bodoignet" actually another nom de course of Sr de los Casas?

Not only the Motor Sport report, but also in the programme, which must have been compiled from the entry forms. Curiouser and curiouser ....

#36 Wolf

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Posted 11 November 2005 - 01:11

I think, if I may raise another point, which I recall discussing elsewhere a while back, and of which I was recently reminded in another thread*...

I don't think people should jump at conclusions about nationality of the driver based on a place of birth or passport... E.g. a person does not automatically qualify for citizenship if born in certain country (but I guess it will help with eventual application for it). E.g. Stuck my have been born in Warsaw, and Poland being the part of (a kingdom in, IIANM) Austro-Hungarian Empire at the time, doesn't qualify him as Polish or Austrian. If he was of Polish or Austrian blood, I'm sure he'd qualify for both**. Even so, I think he would still be German national (it's German rather than Swiss, innit?) with Austrian citizenship (or, should we say papers)- Caracciola wasn't Swiss, was he?

* just to poke good dr. Lawrence, in good humour, I'd like him to tell me what his nationality is according to his passport. :p Even worse, I've heard even people from NI get their nationality as British in pasports, because they don't even live in Britain.

** I'm sure for Austria and Germany- e.g. I can apply for and have both Austrian and German (but I think it's rather either/or- as will be seen later) citizenship issued 'by default', but I would not consider it because Germans AFAIK do not allow dual citizenship (if they are second country) and I would never relinquish my Croatian citizenship

#37 uechtel

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Posted 11 November 2005 - 07:10

Originally posted by Wolf
I don't think people should jump at conclusions about nationality of the driver based on a place of birth or passport... E.g. a person does not automatically qualify for citizenship if born in certain country (but I guess it will help with eventual application for it). E.g. Stuck my have been born in Warsaw, and Poland being the part of (a kingdom in, IIANM) Austro-Hungarian Empire at the time, doesn't qualify him as Polish or Austrian.


Warsaw was never part of the Austro-Hungarian empire. This part of Poland was "owned" by Russia. But wasn´t the real place of his birth at Krakau? Have to loook that up again...

If he was of Polish or Austrian blood, I'm sure he'd qualify for both**. Even so, I think he would still be German national (it's German rather than Swiss, innit?)


Stuck´s grandfather was Swiss, but had moved to Germany and I think adopted German nationality. And remember, something like an "all-German" nationality could not have existed before 1871.

** I'm sure for Austria and Germany- e.g. I can apply for and have both Austrian and German (but I think it's rather either/or- as will be seen later) citizenship issued 'by default', but I would not consider it because Germans AFAIK do not allow dual citizenship (if they are second country)


It is not "allowed", but I know many cases in which it happened as a matter of circumstances. For example everybody born in the USA by parents with a German passport can have both nationalities.