24 replies to this topic

[AUSTRIA]

I have got a note, that says, the first race in Spa was in 1896 (!) - called a 'course handicap', that simply means 'handicap-race'. It looks like the first effort of the then new formed 'Automobile Club de Belgique'.

An interesting matter, does anybody know some more details?

E.T.

[Ray Bell]

You'e way ahead of me, AUSTRIA, the best I have is the 1924 24-hour race, the Belgian Touring Car Grand Prix, won by Springuel and Becquet in a Bignan at 48.7mph. Second was Lagache and Pisart in a Chenard & Walcker, with no third placegetters.
Interestingly, the next year when the first Grand Prix for GP cars was held, there were only two finishers as well - Ascari and Campari in Alfas. This was also the European Grand Prix (as well as the first Belgian GP) and ran at 74.56mph.
Alberto Ascari also won a European GP and his home (Italian) GP. Alan Jones, of course, won the European GP and his home GP, but his father never won a European GP. Any other father and son home GP winners? I don't think so...

[Leo]

Wasn't the 1925 GP the race that Ascari and Campari stopped for an one hour "pitstop"? Since they were the only cars running, the team decided to pull them into the pits and have dinner!! After the meal, the racing resumed. The spectators must have had a real good time....

[Ray Bell]

Reminds me of the scratch men in the 1947 Australian GP. These were handicap races from about 1930 to 1948, and there were some handsome differences in the cars. Lex Davison etc went off after the start and had lunch... then sauntered back down to be ready to go when their time came.

[Hans Etzrodt]

There was indeed a four day Concours d'Automobiles meeting held at Spa in 1896, the first automobile sport event in Belgium. On 11 July 1896, the 12 km race was won by Rossel (Rossel) from the town of Lille ahead of Laumaillé (Peugeot) from Nice in France and third was Craninckx (Benz)...
...and yes, the Spa-Francorchamps circuit did not yet exist. But the Automobile Club of Spa was founded and future races would have Spa at their center.

Maybe our Belgian friends can expand on this?[p][Edited by Hans Etzrodt on 10-18-2000]

[Boniver]

Hans,
was the first race in Spa in 1886 OR 1896

I think its was a race in 1896 but not in Spa but in Lille
(France)

the first race in Belgium was in ?.??.98
Brussel to Spa (city to city race)
1° Pierre de Crawher - Panhard

3.09.01 the first Automobile meting of Oostende
on the Willington Hippodroom
1° Gabriel - Darracq <650 kg
1° de Caters - Mors >650 kg

15.09.08 Coupe Pilette (auto club de Spa) in Spa
1° Morane - Imperia

31 july 02 circuit des Ardennes (first race)
it was the first race on a close circuit
circuit of Bastogne
1° Jarrott Panhard

Boniver,

[Hans Etzrodt]

Boniver,
The first race took place in 1896. I am sorry about my mistake, I had written 1986 instead of 1896 (a serious case of dyslexia). I corrected it just now, so it is not any longer visible.

My sources are Jean-Paul Delsaux’s 100 Ans de Sport Automobile Belge and 60 Ans de Compétition Automobile en Belgique * 1896-1956 by Yvette and Jaques Kupélian and Jaques Sirtaine.


The Brussel to Spa race was on 25/26 June 1898
1. Pierre de Crawhez (Panhard)
2. Émile Mors (Mors)
3. Antony (Mors)

[Falcadore]

Ray,
Did Antonio Ascari ever win the Italian Grand Prix?

Frank and Paul Radisich at the New Zealand Grand Prix?

For all,
How far back to the various Grands Prix of Europe go?

yours
Mark Jones

[fines]

Antonio Ascari won the Italian GP of 1924, 25 years before his son. The only other double of that kind that I am aware of was Stan/Alan Jones in 1959/80.

Paul Radisich won the New Zealand GP in 1988.

The first French GP was held in 1906, but earlier races organised by the ACF were retrospectively called French GP from 1895 onwards.

The first American GP was run in 1908; the first Italian GP in 1922, with a 1921 race named retrospectively.

Spanish GP in 1913, Belgian GP in 1925, German GP in 1926, English GP also in 1926, Monaco GP in 1929.

[Ray Bell]

First Australian GP was 1929, with a 1928 race renamed retrospectively, and a contest of some kind bearing the name in 1927...
It was won by Stan Jones in 1959, Alan Jones in 1980.
Italian GP won by Antonio Ascari in 1924, Alberto Ascari in 1949 (and 51 and 52)..
I've made this point before... Jones and Ascari are the only fathers and sons ever to have won their home GPs.
Frank Radisich was never going to win anything. You never saw him, did you?
Oh, yes, The European GP was won by both Ascaris (conveniently being the Belgian of '25 and '52 for the Ascaris) and by Jones.
The first European GP was at Monza in 1923.

[Egon Thurner]

Hello Hans and Boniver !

Thank you for your replies. I'm sorry about my answering so late.

I think, we can trust Hans' and my sources. If I'm informed right, the winning Rossel was a steamer?

It was always my oppinion, that Belgium is underrated as a forerunner in motorsports. They must have had the third motoring organization worldwide, formed early in 1896 (who knows the exact date and the instigators/proponents?) after the AML (American Motor League, formed on 1.11.1895) and the ACF (Automobilclub de France, formed on 12.11.1895). They soon were followed by the britisch MCC (also in 1896) and later the italian ACT (Automobile Club di Torino, 1898; the ACI was finally formed in 1905).

Some more early belgian races are from interest. There had been a series (for production racers?), called the 'Liederkerke Cup', at least in the years 1905 - 1907. Also there must have been a 'Coupe de la Meuse' and the Ostend speed weeks, mainly for speed records. Do you have some facts about that obscure events?


Egon Thurner

____________

The former AUSTRIA ;)


P.S.
Here you can admire an amazing poster, advertizing the Bruxelles-Spa race on 25./26. June 1898




[p][Edited by Egon Thurner on 12-01-2000]

[fines]

Originally posted by Egon Thurner
I think, we can trust Hans' and my sources. If I'm informed right, the winning Rossel was a steamer?

I recently stumbled about this info on the Rossel, apparently it was based on an early V2 Peugeot.

So that would make it a Rossel-Peugeot/Panhard & Levassor-Daimler - or rather a Peugeot-Rossel/Daimler-Panhard & Levassor? Discuss?

[anjakub]

More about the Bruxelles to Spa race from the magazine of those times.

Course Bruxelles-Chateau d'Ardenne-Spa
June 25-26, 1898

First day: June 25, Bruxelles-Chateau d'Ardenne - 108 km
Second day: June 26, Chateau d'Ardenne-Spa - 102 km

Entry list (start number, drivers name and address, type of car, number of places, power) :
1. baron Pierre de Crawhez, duc, 2 places, 6 hp
3. Grégoire, dogcart, 2 places, 6 hp
5. comte Cahen (Paris), limousine, 4 places, 6 hp
7. A. Lienart, victoria, 4 places, 6 hp
9. baron Duquesne (Nice), break, 4 places, 4 hp
13. Vincke, victoria, 3 places, 5 hp
21. Colard, dogcart, 4 places, 6 hp
23. Van der Speek, dogcart, 2 places, 6 hp
29. L. Mors (Paris), dogcart, 4 places, 6 hp
31. Antony et Broc (Paris), dogcart, 4 places, 6 hp
33. Descamps (Paris), phaëton, 4 places, 6 hp

motorcycles:
Bardin, Osmont, Corre, Marcellin, Deckert (Paris), Meeus (Bruxelles) - tricycle Dion
Bourgeois - voiturette Bollée
Orban-Viot - voiturette Knap
Dernier - tandem a petrole


Results first day:
1. Marcellin 3h47m
2. Corre 4h
3. Osmont 4h02m
4. Bardin 4h03m
5. Meeus 4h28m
6. Crawhez 4h29m
and Duquesne, Mors, Antony, Bourgeois, Grégoire, Descamps, Colard, Cahen

Final results
Cars:
1. P. de Crawhez = 26,675 km/h (average speed)
2. L. Mors = 26,367 km/h
3. Antony et Broc
4. Grégoire
5. Descamps
6. Colard
7. Cahen

On second day in Ouergesche Vincke's car turned somersault.

Motorcycles:
1. Marcellin = 30,800 km/h
2. Bardin = 28,377 km/h

Marcellin was not regularly entered. He was declasse but the race committe gave him an amount of money equalizes the value of the first price.



After the Course Bruxelles-Spa was held the Concours d'Automobiles de Spa .
List of the winners:
Corso fleuri: ex-aequo comte Cahen and Descamps
Concours d'adresse: Grégoire
Prix Sir David Salomons (for the prettier car) : Ch. Craninckx - electric car F.N.
Prix du Touring Club (for the best tourist car) : Wantier
Prix du comte de Hemricourd de Grune: comte Cohen


Source: Le Sport Universel Illustré, July 16, 1898, pages 162-463.

[anjakub]

Sorry. Mistake.
Le Sport Universel Illustré, July 16, 1898, pages 462-463.

[fines]

Thanks, Andrej! That's fabulous information!


__________________
Michael Ferner

I am not a priori against war - indeed I am of the opinion that every available option
to get rid of the people who pull the strings on George W. Bush should be evaluated.

[fines]

I'm having trouble with another pair of Belgian races, namely Bruxelles - Namur - Spa on July 1 and Spa - Bastogne - Spa on July 4, both in 1899. Apparently, both races were won by De Knyff, although sources differ as to whether it was René or his brother, Gaétan, or even both of them! The car in question is sometimes given as a Peugeot, sometimes as a Panhard & Levassor.

1899-07-01 (Sat)
Bruxelles - Namur - Spa

1 Gaétan de Knyff, Peugeot (or Panhard & Levassor), 3:52'48"
2 Pinson, Panhard & Levassor
3 Pierre (or Jean-Marie) de Crawhez, Panhard & Levassor

1899-07-04 (Tue)
Spa - Bastogne - Spa

1 Gaétan (or René) de Knyff, Peugeot (or Panhard & Levassor)
2 Fernand Charron, Panhard & Levassor
3 Pinson, Panhard & Levassor

Anyone knowing more?


__________________
Michael Ferner

I am not a priori against war - indeed I am of the opinion that every available option
to get rid of the people who pull the strings on George W. Bush should be evaluated.

[gerrit stevens]

Originally posted by fines
I'm having trouble with another pair of Belgian races, namely Bruxelles - Namur - Spa on July 1 and Spa - Bastogne - Spa on July 4, both in 1899. Apparently, both races were won by De Knyff, although sources differ as to whether it was René or his brother, Gaétan, or even both of them! The car in question is sometimes given as a Peugeot, sometimes as a Panhard & Levassor.

1899-07-01 (Sat)
Bruxelles - Namur - Spa

1 Gaétan de Knyff, Peugeot (or Panhard & Levassor), 3:52'48"
2 Pinson, Panhard & Levassor
3 Pierre (or Jean-Marie) de Crawhez, Panhard & Levassor

1899-07-04 (Tue)
Spa - Bastogne - Spa

1 Gaétan (or René) de Knyff, Peugeot (or Panhard & Levassor)
2 Fernand Charron, Panhard & Levassor
3 Pinson, Panhard & Levassor

Anyone knowing more?

________________
Michael Ferner

Below something which I copied from another thread (I cannot remember which one) concerning the same race.

Originally posted by DCN
Yvette and Jaques Kupélian & Jaques Sirtaine in 60 Ans de Compétition AUTOMOBILE en Belgique 1896-1956 mention Madame Lambrose, who drove an 8 hp Panhard to fifth place in the “Meeting Automobile de Spa”. On July 1, 1899 the cars started from the ”Place Royale” in Bruxelles, the Automobile Club’s location (if I translated that correctly from French), for the first stage, which went from Brussels over Wavre to Namur. Then from Namur over Marche and Hamoir to Spa. The 1st categorie was won by [Gaétan –as per Delsaux] de Knyff (Panhard) at 46.5 km/h average ahead of Count Cahen (8 hp Panhard) and Pierre de Caters (15 hp Bolide). Madame Lambrose was entered in the 2nd categorie, which saw Pierre de Crawhez (Amédée Bollée) first at 23 km/h average with Grégoire (6 hp Germain) in second followed by her in third.

Incidentally July 1-2 1899 actually witnessed the first event organised as part of that year's 'Meeting Automobile de Spa' which was a 2-stage 179km run Brussels-Namur-Spa. The valiant Mme Labrousse was placed 3rd in the 2nd category, completing the course in 8hrs30mins 29secs. This contrasts with Rene de Knyff's time for the same course of 3hrs 52mins 48secs, 35km/h. I cannot find a Paris-Spa event on the same date.

DCN

In my files I found the next results.
Brussel-Wavre-Namur-Marche-Hamoir-Spa 336,350 km
FP Driver Car Time / Reason of Retirement
Cars (15 entries) 1-2 July 1899
Categorie 1
1 Rene De Knyff Panhard 12CV 46.5 kmh
2 Pinson Panhard 8CV
3 Comte Sahen Panhard 8CV

Categorie 2
1 Baron Pierre de Crawhez Amedée Bollée 23 kmh
2 Gregoire Germain 6CV
3 Mme Labrousse Panhard 4.5CV
4 't Serclaes Vincke 6CV

Categorie 3
1 Hautvast de Dion Bouton



Cars 4 July 1899, Spa-Bastogne-Spa
1 Rene De Knyff Panhard 12CV
2 Fernand Charron Panhard 12CV
3 Pinson Panhard 8CV

CV means hp.

I thought I had these results from the same source: 60 Ans de Competition Automobile en Belgique 1896-1956, which I used in a library. BTW the book isn't there present anymore. But seeing the above results I doubt if I copied the data right, or maybe I added some from another source.

I am not sure about the distance (336 km), perhaps I added the Brussel-Namur-Spa and the Spa-Bastogne-Spa races.
The racing speed of Brussel-Namur-Spa seems to be fairly right.
The distance and race speed of Spa-Bastogne-Spa remains a mystery. Probably the distance is somewhere between 150-200 km.

Remains one question; is it madame Lambrose or madame Labrousse.

Gerrit Stevens

[Marcor]

1899 races, etc

Race Bruxelles - Namur - Spa (2 days), 15 starters
Oscar Grégoire
Vanderspeck
Albert Mans
Baron Pierre de Crawhez
Comte de Cahen
Madame Marie Labrousse
Baron de t'Serstevens
Pinson
René de Knyff
J. de Crawhez
Chauchard
Rivière
Baron Pierre de Caters
Lucien Hautvast
Craninckx

Results at Namur (70 km)
1- René de Knyff
2- Pinson
3- Chauchard
4- de Cahen
5- Labrousse
6- Grégoire
7- Mans
8- de Caters
9- Pierre de Crawhez
...
DNF- Rivière

Second day: Namur - Spa, 14 starters
results of the 2 days
1- René de Knyff (Panhard-Levassor, 4 places), cat 1
2- Pinson (Panhard-Levassor), cat 1
3- P. de Crawhez (Panhard-Levassor), cat 2
4- Cahen (Panhard-Levassor), cat 1
5- Grégoire, cat 2
6- Labrousse (Panhard-Levassor), cat 2
7- J. de Crawhez, cat 2
8- Hautvast, cat 3
9- Vanderspeck, cat 2
10- de t'Serstevens, cat 2
11- de Caters, cat 1

2nd cat 3- Craninckx
DNF (crash)- Chauchard
?- Mans

4 July 1899, Spa - Bastogne - Spa, 6 starters, speed race
Oscar Grégoire, Germain 6 HP, start at 9:11
Baron Pierre de Crawhez, Bollée 12 HP: start at 9:11:30
Charron, Panhard-Levassor 16 HP, start at 9:12 AM
Chevallier de Knyff, Panhard-Levassor 16 HP, start at 9:12:30
Pinson, Panhard-Levassor, start at 9:13
Camille Jenatzy, Lefèbvre 12 HP, start at 9:13:30

results (rain during the race)
1- de Knyff
2- Charron
3- Pinson

3 finishers

Sources: La Meuse* (Liège),Le Figaro (Paris), Le Matin (Paris).
* most comprehensive source.

[gerrit stevens]

Originally posted by Marcor
[B]1899 races, etc

Race Bruxelles - Namur - Spa (2 days), 15 starters
Chauchard

Could this be Paul Chauchard, winner of Mont Ventoux hillclimb 1902 (see Hans Etzrodt's list).

Results at Namur (70 km)

Assuming the total distance was 179 km, the distance Namur-Spa was 179-70 = 109 km.

Second day: Namur - Spa, 14 starters
results of the 2 days
3- P. de Crawhez (Panhard-Levassor), cat 2
5- Grégoire, cat 2
7- J. de Crawhez, cat 2
8- Hautvast, cat 3
10- de t'Serstevens, cat 2
11- de Caters, cat 1

Cars according to already used sources;
3. Amédée Bollée, also given in the Spa-Bastogne-Spa
5. Germain 6CV, also given in Spa-Bastogne-Spa
7. Panhard Levassor?
8. de Dion Bouton
10. Vincke 6CV with driver 't Serclaes???
11. Bolide 15 CV

According to the same sources the average speed of De Knyff was 46,5 kmh.
Average speed of the winner of second category de Crawhez was 23 kmh. He finished third overall. I think this is a big difference to number one, De Knyff.

4 July 1899, Spa - Bastogne - Spa, 6 starters, speed race
results (rain during the race)
1- de Knyff
2- Charron
3- Pinson

Any idea about race time and distance?


Gerrit Stevens

[gerrit stevens]

Close related to the Spa races is the career of Lucien Hautvast.

here a quote from Danny1 in old thread about this driver.

1901 cote de la citadelle de namur 3 june
voiturettes 1é on Vivinus

1901 namur bastogne namur in june
voiturettes 1é on vivinus

1902 1é circuit des Ardennes
24é on Pipe
1903 2é circuit des Ardennes
16é on pipe


1900 Spa Bastogne Spa 25-26 august
voiturettes 4 CV 1é vivinus

In Nederlandsche Sport 985 (8 June 1901) I found some results about the 1901 Namur-Bastogne-Namur race in June 1901.
According to this Dutch weekly the race was held on 2 June.

No information about cars and distance as they were not given.
26 partants.
cars 6-10 hp
1 Roland, 4:25.50
2 Conrard, 4:45.58
3 Dernier, 4:50,29
4 Parmez, 6:53.25

cars +10 hp
1 Daubredy, 4:37.34
2 de 't Serclaes, 5:24.25
3 Coppée, 5:55.03

voiturettes
1 Lucien Hautvast, 6:18.31 apparently on Vivinus
2 Martiny, 6:49.40
3 De Smedt, 7:02.40
4 Francette, 7:44.23
5 Joostens, 7:53.41

Motocycles/cyclettes
1 Gaste, 4:26.38
2 Chisagne, 5:02.41
3 Houx, 5:08.09
4 Siersaeck, 7:26.40


Does anyone knows more about this race and also about the race on 25-26 August 1900.


Gerrit Stevens

[Marcor]

Gerrit
yes I can provide more infos about those Belgian events. Just a few now (as I had to left my PC)
1)- yes this is Paul Chauchard from the Automobile Club de Nice (he was in the Comitee).
2)- please read Chisogne not Chisagne.

I will compare my data with the ones already in this thread ... Tomorrow, I promise.

[Marcor]

This was from La Meuse

4 July 1899, Spa - Bastogne - Spa, 6 starters, speed race
Oscar Grégoire, Germain 6 HP, start at 9:11
Baron Pierre de Crawhez, Bollée 12 HP: start at 9:11:30
Charron, Panhard-Levassor 16 HP, start at 9:12 AM
Chevallier de Knyff, Panhard-Levassor 16 HP, start at 9:12:30
Pinson, Panhard-Levassor, start at 9:13
Camille Jenatzy, Lefèbvre 12 HP, start at 9:13:30

results (rain during the race)
1- de Knyff
2- Charron
3- Pinson

3 finishers

Now this was the information given by L'Etoile Belge (other Belgian newspaper)
Spa-Bastogne-Spa
start Thuesday morning 4 July at Le Pouhon (Spa), 6 starters, 181 km.
Heavy rain during the race.

results
1- René de Knyff in 4h 38 m 18s, finished at 1:50:48: 4/5 PM
2- Charron, finished at 2:43:36 2/5 PM
3- Pinson, finished at 3:04:01 PM
4- Pierre de Crawhez, finished at 5:12 PM
5- de Caters, finished at 5:55 PM

La Meuse have said that Jenatzy did the race in a car owned by Pierre de Caters.
In l'Etoile Belge, the name of the cars were not mentioned.

[gerrit stevens]

Originally posted by Marcor
This was from La Meuse

4 July 1899, Spa - Bastogne - Spa, 6 starters, speed race
Oscar Grégoire, Germain 6 HP, start at 9:11
Baron Pierre de Crawhez, Bollée 12 HP: start at 9:11:30
Charron, Panhard-Levassor 16 HP, start at 9:12 AM
Chevallier de Knyff, Panhard-Levassor 16 HP, start at 9:12:30
Pinson, Panhard-Levassor, start at 9:13
Camille Jenatzy, Lefèbvre 12 HP, start at 9:13:30

results (rain during the race)
1- de Knyff
2- Charron
3- Pinson

3 finishers

Now this was the information given by L'Etoile Belge (other Belgian newspaper)
Spa-Bastogne-Spa
start Thuesday morning 4 July at Le Pouhon (Spa), 6 starters, 181 km.
Heavy rain during the race.

results
1- René de Knyff in 4h 38 m 18s, finished at 1:50:48: 4/5 PM
2- Charron, finished at 2:43:36 2/5 PM
3- Pinson, finished at 3:04:01 PM
4- Pierre de Crawhez, finished at 5:12 PM
5- de Caters, finished at 5:55 PM

La Meuse have said that Jenatzy did the race in a car owned by Pierre de Caters.
In l'Etoile Belge, the name of the cars were not mentioned.

Could it be that the owner of the was mentioned in L'Etoile Belge and that Jenatzy drove the car in reality. I don't see Pierre de Caters in the start list. Or did De Caters start in stead of Gregoire.
I suppose La Meuse did not consider De Crawhez and De Caters (or Jenatzy?) as finishers since they were more than 2 hours back.


Gerrit Stevens

[gerrit stevens]

Originally posted by Marcor
1899 races, etc

Race Bruxelles - Namur - Spa (2 days), 15 starters
Comte de Cahen
Pinson

First name Comte de Cahen.
Could it be Marcel? Third in Saint Germain-Vernon-Sant Germain 1898.
There was also a Comte Cahen (from Paris) in Brussel-Spa 1898.

Any ideas about Pinson?

Gerrit Stevens

[Marcor]

1899 Spa-Bastogne-Spa: Pierre de Caters's car was driven by Jenatzy, so he was not in the 6 starters (given by La Meuse).

I have Comte R. de Cahen, from Paris or Anvers (or maye both).

Pinson: his first name is never mentioned in my sources; He was from Nice, or from his Automobile Club.