This is a circuit that interests me; I've got the trackplan from websites and more-or-less matched it from Multimap, but I seem to recall that someone pointed out a link to aerial photography of Italy, which would be interesting, especially to see how the new autodrome fits in.
Also, has anyone made a trip there in recent years, or are there any then-and-now pictures online anywhere?
I've tried to identify the locations of photos from the GP over the years; for example, there were several pictures in the Motor Sport report for 1961, and a couple for 1966, which I have no idea about. There are quite a lot of pictures of cars turning into what must be the hairpin at the end of the start-finish straight, and there was a cover colour pic on Motor Sport in IIRC 1964 or 1965 which I believe was the exit of the last corner onto the finish straight.
Can anyone give any more pointers?
Thanks.
PWM
Syracuse
Started by
Macca
, Apr 21 2004 15:03
30 replies to this topic
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#2
Macca
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Posted 22 April 2004 - 09:15
So nobody's ever been there and no-one can remember the link to aerial photos of Italy?
PWM
PWM
#3
gdecarli
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Posted 22 April 2004 - 10:20
Yes, of course! I didn't see your message before...Originally posted by Macca
So nobody's ever been there and no-one can remember the link to aerial photos of Italy?
Go to AtlanteItaliano.it! It's in Italian only, if you need instructions, you can give a look to my post on pictures of Pescara Grand Prix ? thread.
However, track map on my website is drawn from this aerial photo.
As regards photos... I'm sorry I have nothing you are looking for, at least now.
Ciao,
Guido
#4
Buford
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Posted 22 April 2004 - 10:34
I guess you are not talking about the dirt mile track at Syracuse, New York?
#5
gdecarli
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Posted 22 April 2004 - 10:42
No we are talking about Siracusa (Syracuse), located in Sicilia (Sicily), Italy.Originally posted by Buford
I guess you are not talking about the dirt mile track at Syracuse, New York?
Ciao,
Guido
#6
Rob29
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Posted 22 April 2004 - 14:28
'Under construction 1998' Any chance it will ever be completed?
#7
Macca
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Posted 22 April 2004 - 14:45
Guido,
Many, many thanks for that; I had tried to do a search but could not remember the thread and could not find it.
Buford,
Well spotted, I did mean the 'other' one; guess I should be careful to avoid duplicate placenames................unless, of course, there are stories that are more interesting to be told about Syracuse, NY than about Siracusa, It.
PWM
Many, many thanks for that; I had tried to do a search but could not remember the thread and could not find it.
Buford,
Well spotted, I did mean the 'other' one; guess I should be careful to avoid duplicate placenames................unless, of course, there are stories that are more interesting to be told about Syracuse, NY than about Siracusa, It.
PWM
#8
gdecarli
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Posted 22 April 2004 - 14:46
Its construction begun in 1973 
, so don't hurry! 
Unofficially it was inaugurated on December 8th 2000, but it was not finished yet.
According to Team Melluzzo (Italian only), it was opened in 2003 and it is used for car and motorbike free practice and for a driving school. I have no info about any race.
By the way, map on that site shows a different layout where short circuit join the long one.
Ciao,
Guido
, so don't hurry! Unofficially it was inaugurated on December 8th 2000, but it was not finished yet.
According to Team Melluzzo (Italian only), it was opened in 2003 and it is used for car and motorbike free practice and for a driving school. I have no info about any race.
By the way, map on that site shows a different layout where short circuit join the long one.
Ciao,
Guido
#9
gdecarli
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Posted 22 April 2004 - 14:48
On my website - Link page - I have a links to all sites I know with aerial photos. If anybody knows some more, they are welcome!Originally posted by Macca
Guido,
Many, many thanks for that; I had tried to do a search but could not remember the thread and could not find it.
Ciao,
Guido
#10
McRonalds
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Posted 22 April 2004 - 16:20
There's a small Italian site about the Syracuse GP - it even contains some photos:
http://www.hobbytime.it/siracusa.html
http://www.hobbytime.it/siracusa.html
#11
Barry Boor
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Posted 30 July 2008 - 21:59
Dug Macca's thread up again to try to satisfy my curiosity regarding the western end of the old circuit.
My circuit map, in the Autosport Directory 1955, has always looked pretty authentic to me. Measuring the sections of the circuit, I find that the straight after the hairpin at the eastern end is just about 1.5 times the length of the straight at the north side of the circuit, i.e. the bit before the first of the two roughly 90 degree left handers that brought the cars back onto the start/finish straight. (It should be remembered that this was an ANTI-clockwise circuit.)
Right, now, looking at Google Earth, comparing the two sections mentioned above and measuring them, I arrive at a left hand corner. Fine so far.... BUT, the line of the road after this corner looks all wrong. According to my map, it was not quite a straight, but was virtually so, ending in another, more or less 90 degree bend.
I know that things change in 50 years but the road shown on G.E. runs past some houses, then between buildings and is in nothing like the position that the old circuit maps show; it then bends to the right, again nowhere near the sort of shape on any circuit map I have seen.
Thereafter, the old circuit is obliterated by the new autodrome, and can only be picked up again a third of a mile before the hairpin.
I know that this is picking the nit to an extreme degree, but I always feel that if these things are not pinned down now, they may be lost forever.
So what, I hear you memble.......
My circuit map, in the Autosport Directory 1955, has always looked pretty authentic to me. Measuring the sections of the circuit, I find that the straight after the hairpin at the eastern end is just about 1.5 times the length of the straight at the north side of the circuit, i.e. the bit before the first of the two roughly 90 degree left handers that brought the cars back onto the start/finish straight. (It should be remembered that this was an ANTI-clockwise circuit.)
Right, now, looking at Google Earth, comparing the two sections mentioned above and measuring them, I arrive at a left hand corner. Fine so far.... BUT, the line of the road after this corner looks all wrong. According to my map, it was not quite a straight, but was virtually so, ending in another, more or less 90 degree bend.
I know that things change in 50 years but the road shown on G.E. runs past some houses, then between buildings and is in nothing like the position that the old circuit maps show; it then bends to the right, again nowhere near the sort of shape on any circuit map I have seen.
Thereafter, the old circuit is obliterated by the new autodrome, and can only be picked up again a third of a mile before the hairpin.
I know that this is picking the nit to an extreme degree, but I always feel that if these things are not pinned down now, they may be lost forever.
So what, I hear you memble.......
#12
lil'chris
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Posted 30 July 2008 - 22:48
Barry,
I've also wondered about this but still not been able to work out whether the maps are right and the road has been rerouted since 1967 or the original maps were wrong / maybe not detailed enough. Looking at the 3D view, I favour the latter.
Of course, we've seen mapping errors in the past, in particular, for Reims ( between Gueux/ Musso and Muizon ) and Spa ( between Kemmel and Les Combes ).
Cheers
Chris
I've also wondered about this but still not been able to work out whether the maps are right and the road has been rerouted since 1967 or the original maps were wrong / maybe not detailed enough. Looking at the 3D view, I favour the latter.
Of course, we've seen mapping errors in the past, in particular, for Reims ( between Gueux/ Musso and Muizon ) and Spa ( between Kemmel and Les Combes ).
Cheers
Chris
#13
Peter Leversedge
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Posted 31 July 2008 - 05:57
Syracuse - thats a race track in up state New York were sprint cars/modifieds and champ dirt cars run wide open is it not? I think I did hear of it being refered to as "the moody mile"
Is that correct Buford?
Is that correct Buford?
#14
Rob29
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Posted 31 July 2008 - 06:21
See posts at the start of this thread 
Reading this again,including my own post of 4 years ago reminds me there seems to have been no progress with Sicilian racing.Besides Siracusa what has happened to Enna-Pergusa?
Reading this again,including my own post of 4 years ago reminds me there seems to have been no progress with Sicilian racing.Besides Siracusa what has happened to Enna-Pergusa?
#15
Marcel Visbeen
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Posted 31 July 2008 - 08:06
Originally posted by Barry Boor
Right, now, looking at Google Earth, comparing the two sections mentioned above and measuring them, I arrive at a left hand corner. Fine so far.... BUT, the line of the road after this corner looks all wrong. According to my map, it was not quite a straight, but was virtually so, ending in another, more or less 90 degree bend.
I went to Syracusa three years ago and tried to find the old circuit, I took the left hand corner you mention above (I think this was called Ascari-bend) and continued through a weak bend (indeed not just a straight), passed a couple of houses and came up to this:
I took the picture standing on the track. Here the old ciruit ends and behind the fence is the terrain of the new one.
I did make a lot more pictures of how the old course looks today (well, in 2005) but I don't have time to upload them now.
If anyone is interested I can do that in the next couple of days.
@Rob:
On the same holiday by the way, I went to Enna-Pergusa and that track is still used and hasn't been altered much after the chicanes were put in (at sometime during the 80s?).
#16
Barry Boor
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Posted 31 July 2008 - 08:37
Marcel, many thanks for the picture. 
I for one would LOVE to see any pictures you have of the old place. However, I wonder if you can explain a little more about where that picture was taken. Am I correct in thinking it must have been at about point C on this image:
Scaling up from other, unaltered parts of the circuit, the section from A to B brings us to THE corner. The corner and the following section is nothing like any circuit map I have ever seen and although I accept what Lil' Chris says about circuit plans, somehow it just don't seem right to me.
In fact, looking at this image again, I wonder if, in fact, the actual corner is the one just AFTER my point B - a much narrower piece of road? This only extends a short way and then bends around a bit and ends in a farm! It could have continued straight down before.....
The piece of road I am questioning looks very new......
I for one would LOVE to see any pictures you have of the old place. However, I wonder if you can explain a little more about where that picture was taken. Am I correct in thinking it must have been at about point C on this image:
Scaling up from other, unaltered parts of the circuit, the section from A to B brings us to THE corner. The corner and the following section is nothing like any circuit map I have ever seen and although I accept what Lil' Chris says about circuit plans, somehow it just don't seem right to me.
In fact, looking at this image again, I wonder if, in fact, the actual corner is the one just AFTER my point B - a much narrower piece of road? This only extends a short way and then bends around a bit and ends in a farm! It could have continued straight down before.....
The piece of road I am questioning looks very new......
#17
Marcel Visbeen
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Posted 31 July 2008 - 10:29
Thank you Barry,
you just gave me the best excuse to postpone my work for today just a little bit more...
;)
You are correct, the picture I took was more or less at point C in your Google Earth picture.
Furthermore, I am positive that B indicates the corner of the original circuit. Here is a picture of the 'piece of road you are questioning':
This picture is taken from point B looking towards point A. Maybe it is not so obvious from the picture, but standing there I was convinced it was clearly part of the old track, you could still see it on the surface. If you look in the lower left corner of the picture you can also see that the corner still has a slight camber.
The next picture is taken from the same spot but looking in opposite direction:
If we go into the corner a bit more and zoom in you can see there is a double armco attached to the wall on the outside:
This is definitely your corner B.
Now we move on (skip a bit) and are approaching C:
The laundry on the right belongs to a big gypsy family that lived by the old trackside. They had turned the rest of the track up to C into their farmyard. Their two adolescent sons where fittingly tryng to bring an old motorcycle to life and they confirmed that this was indeed the old track. I asked them if I could proceed because I wanted to see what more was left of it and wanted to take pictures. They told me there was nothing more to see, but if I really wanted to go...
In the distance you can see the same fence, more or less at point C, that was in my earlier post.
Standing at the fence looking back:
Slightly dissapointed that I could not drive the old track anymore, I returned and was greeted by the doubtful smiling family, who had all come out to see who was that loony from Holland, taking pictures of an unused peace of road and a fence...
you just gave me the best excuse to postpone my work for today just a little bit more...
;)
You are correct, the picture I took was more or less at point C in your Google Earth picture.
Furthermore, I am positive that B indicates the corner of the original circuit. Here is a picture of the 'piece of road you are questioning':
This picture is taken from point B looking towards point A. Maybe it is not so obvious from the picture, but standing there I was convinced it was clearly part of the old track, you could still see it on the surface. If you look in the lower left corner of the picture you can also see that the corner still has a slight camber.
The next picture is taken from the same spot but looking in opposite direction:
If we go into the corner a bit more and zoom in you can see there is a double armco attached to the wall on the outside:
This is definitely your corner B.
Now we move on (skip a bit) and are approaching C:
The laundry on the right belongs to a big gypsy family that lived by the old trackside. They had turned the rest of the track up to C into their farmyard. Their two adolescent sons where fittingly tryng to bring an old motorcycle to life and they confirmed that this was indeed the old track. I asked them if I could proceed because I wanted to see what more was left of it and wanted to take pictures. They told me there was nothing more to see, but if I really wanted to go...
In the distance you can see the same fence, more or less at point C, that was in my earlier post.
Standing at the fence looking back:
Slightly dissapointed that I could not drive the old track anymore, I returned and was greeted by the doubtful smiling family, who had all come out to see who was that loony from Holland, taking pictures of an unused peace of road and a fence...
#18
Barry Boor
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Posted 31 July 2008 - 14:18
Don't worry, Marcel, there have been many cases of similar people wondering what another loony, from London, via Wales, was doing taking similar pictures of similar pieces of road in Rome, Ospedaletti, Comminges, Cadours, Rouen and various other places....
Anyway, much thanks for settling, once and for all, the matter of the line of the circuit at Siracusa.
I would LOVE to see an aerial photo from BEFORE the autodrome was constructed. Just to see if the road that ends in your fence ran straight down to the last corner.
I suppose we shall never know but at least we DO know something that we never knew before. (Apart from you, that is!!!)
Anyway, much thanks for settling, once and for all, the matter of the line of the circuit at Siracusa.
I would LOVE to see an aerial photo from BEFORE the autodrome was constructed. Just to see if the road that ends in your fence ran straight down to the last corner.
I suppose we shall never know but at least we DO know something that we never knew before. (Apart from you, that is!!!)
#19
D-Type
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Posted 31 July 2008 - 17:02
Marcel,Originally posted by Marcel Visbeen
Thank you Barry,
you just gave me the best excuse to postpone my work for today just a little bit more...
;)
~Slightly dissapointed that I could not drive the old track anymore, I returned and was greeted by the doubtful smiling family, who had all come out to see who was that loony from Holland, taking pictures of an unused peace of road and a fence...
Just for interest which language did you use to communicate with a (presumably) Italian gipsy?
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#20
Marcel Visbeen
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Posted 31 July 2008 - 17:19
Originally posted by D-Type
Marcel,
Just for interest which language did you use to communicate with a (presumably) Italian gipsy?
I would be in big trouble (and wasted a lot of money) if I could not manage a little dialogue like that after five years of lessons in the Italian language.
(Although I must admit that they did not make it any easier with their Sicilian accent)
#21
bschenker
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Posted 31 July 2008 - 18:17
From the track in the site from Guido DeCarli I overlaid the map on the Googlemap.
I’m not sure but I think the track in the blue camp was a straight road; it’s a long time since 1967 when I was there.
.
I’m not sure but I think the track in the blue camp was a straight road; it’s a long time since 1967 when I was there.
.
#22
Barry Boor
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Posted 31 July 2008 - 19:12
The first bend was a gentle right, followed by a gentle left, then two more gentle rights down to the hairpin.
I wonder if Tony Brooks would remember; or even J.S?
I wonder if Tony Brooks would remember; or even J.S?
#23
Macca
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Posted 31 July 2008 - 19:55
The pictures here:
http://www.jmfangio....956siracusa.htm
show a left corner after a gentle right curve - many photos I've seen from Syracuse in different years show this bend. Would it be the now-obscured final corner onto the start/finish straight?
(Also, is the 'Collins' photo bottom-left actually Syracuse?)
Paul M
edit: does anyone know which part of the track in shown in the photo on this page of Hawthorn's 1954 crash/fire?
http://www.ferrarist...html&lang=en-us
http://www.jmfangio....956siracusa.htm
show a left corner after a gentle right curve - many photos I've seen from Syracuse in different years show this bend. Would it be the now-obscured final corner onto the start/finish straight?
(Also, is the 'Collins' photo bottom-left actually Syracuse?)
Paul M
edit: does anyone know which part of the track in shown in the photo on this page of Hawthorn's 1954 crash/fire?
http://www.ferrarist...html&lang=en-us
#24
Barry Boor
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Posted 31 July 2008 - 21:09
Macca, three of those four pictures are taken at the hairpin. The one in the bottom left corner.... well, it doesn't look like Syracuse at all, to me. The number on the car doesn't look like 28, either.
The Hawthorn/Gonzales fire was somewhere between the hairpin and the corner we have been discussing. I think, actually, at the first of the gentle left handers after the hairpin.
BTW, look at the circuit maps on BOTH those websites.... it's no wonder I was confused!
The Hawthorn/Gonzales fire was somewhere between the hairpin and the corner we have been discussing. I think, actually, at the first of the gentle left handers after the hairpin.
BTW, look at the circuit maps on BOTH those websites.... it's no wonder I was confused!
#25
bschenker
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Posted 31 July 2008 - 21:58
I’m sure the road after the start (box aerial) was straight for a shorter time, but I cant remembers an S like on the map. The road to the hairpin was also the road to the centre of Siracusa (Hotels), or counter wise from Siracusa to the boxes.
These in the Ferrari stuff looks more as I can remember.
.
These in the Ferrari stuff looks more as I can remember.
.
#26
Alan Cox
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Posted 01 August 2008 - 10:04
Scope, surely, for an occasional magazine in the style of the excellent "After the Battle" series featuring "then and now" photos. With Barry Boor in the role of Winston G Ramsey as chief researcher and photographer.
#27
Macca
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Posted 07 August 2008 - 11:50
Originally posted by Barry Boor
Macca, three of those four pictures are taken at the hairpin. The one in the bottom left corner.... well, it doesn't look like Syracuse at all, to me. The number on the car doesn't look like 28, either.
The various photos and links, and the Youtube film, show that the left-hander with the painted centreline on the road, after a right curve, is NOT the hairpin, which is an acute junction with straw bales round it; and as it isn't the corner at the end of the long back straight ( seen in the last photo here, of the slowdown lap in 1967: http://www.hobbytime.it/siracusa.html ), it must have been the one onto the start/finish straght.
Paul M
#28
LittleChris
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Posted 25 April 2010 - 22:32
Using googlemaps streetview, you can now travel around the circuit from just before the hairpin to the point at which Marcel met the gypsy family
#29
Eric Dunsdon
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Posted 26 April 2010 - 14:09
The first bend was a gentle right, followed by a gentle left, then two more gentle rights down to the hairpin.
I wonder if Tony Brooks would remember; or even J.S?
According to the commentator at Silverstone on saturday, Tony Brooks famous 1955 Connaught victory was at Pescara!.
#30
Odseybod
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Posted 26 April 2010 - 14:21
According to the commentator at Silverstone on saturday, Tony Brooks famous 1955 Connaught victory was at Pescara!.
Glad I wasn't the nnly one to hear that and make puzzled noises.
#31
simonlewisbooks
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Posted 26 April 2010 - 15:18
Chris Ellard's newly released CD-ROM ,"MORE FORGOTTEN RACES" ( which compliments his two books) has a rather nice Syracuse photo on the cover...
The hairpin I assume? Quite surprised the local cops, visible in the shot facing the crowd not the cars, have managed to prevent the spectators from sitting on that wall, legs dangling....
The hairpin I assume? Quite surprised the local cops, visible in the shot facing the crowd not the cars, have managed to prevent the spectators from sitting on that wall, legs dangling....
