Doug, and others,
I was cleaning out my room yesterday and found some old stuff about the first Ferrari.
Doug, you wrote an article for a magazine several years ago (Classic Car I think) stating that it was your opinion that the now Touring Coupe 0020 was the first Ferrari. I even have a hand written letter from you about some pictures and your advice that I should contact Geof. Goddard.
Doug, have you revised your opinon on which car is actually the first Ferrari ??? I am under the impression that many now claim it is the Spyder Corsa 010 that was in england for a long time and is now in the States.
How's this for a wild idea as the first Ferrari ??? The Alfa bi-motore !!! or the AAC 815 ?? I'm sure that the AAC car would have been named a Ferrari had not Enzo signed that agreement with Alfa.
Thanks
Mark
The first Ferrari?
Started by
GBORSARI
, Apr 26 2004 22:19
27 replies to this topic
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#2
Vitesse2
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Posted 26 April 2004 - 22:24
I'd go with the Bimotores myself, but even before the Auto-Avio 815 you can also make a case for the Alfa 158 being inspired, if not actually built by Ferrari.
#3
Doug Nye
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Posted 27 April 2004 - 09:11
Without the time presently to double-check the original story I think my general drift was that the original postwar 1947 V12 Piacenza car had disappeared, and had not - apparently - been sold to a willing victim, as one might have expected - since Ferrari was hard-pressed for cash and The Old Man would by nature (at that time) sell anything that was either not bolted down, or for which he had no further need.
That early Berlinetta had a very odd chassis, with some amputation and re-weld marks enshrined in its metal fabric. When I tried to trace the story through - talking to the few remaining people involved at the time - it appeared that somebody (I can't check right now - but from pure memory wasn't it Franco Cornacchia of Scuderia Guastalla fame????) had bought a stripped chassis frame from Maranello, and had it bodied in that Berlinetta form? There was a possibility that the redundant stripped chassis bought was in fact all that survived of the Piacenza car - straightened and stored after a later accident I think.
When it comes down to the question of the car being 'The First Ferrari' this is really a convenient piece of journalese I suppose which a) sold the story and so b) helped pay my family's rent....a factor which readers should perhaps always consider when reading that kind of material...;)
In the sense that the 1947 Piacenza 'first Ferrari' chassis frame could conceivably have survived underneath that later body, the notion seemed to be supported by the evidence presented.
As far as I am concerned there is no doubt in my mind that the 1947 Piacenza car has every right to be regarded as 'the first Ferrari' - while the 1935 Bimotori pair, the 1937-39 Alfetta cars and the 1940 AAC 815s are all variably well qualified as having been 'Ferrari's precursors'.
The Bimotore model was ingeniously confected around basic Alfa Romeo-originated mechanicals.
The Alfetta was a in effect a contract job undertaken for Alfa Romeo and with major components Alfa Romeo-made.
The AAC 815s were Fiat-derived in design and owed much to Nardi...
But the 1941 125S had been tailor-designed from a clean sheet of paper to Ferrari's specific and custom-built commission, and its mechanicals owed virtually nothing to any other manufacturer.
As an entity - therefore - I do indeed regard that car as being the most worthy claimant to the title of being 'the first Ferrari'.
Whether or not a proportion of that original car's structure has come down to us in the form described in my old magazine feature is a matter for further research/debate. I believed it to be highly likely at the time I researched and wrote that piece....and I have seen little definitive evidence since to confirm otherwise.
DCN
That early Berlinetta had a very odd chassis, with some amputation and re-weld marks enshrined in its metal fabric. When I tried to trace the story through - talking to the few remaining people involved at the time - it appeared that somebody (I can't check right now - but from pure memory wasn't it Franco Cornacchia of Scuderia Guastalla fame????) had bought a stripped chassis frame from Maranello, and had it bodied in that Berlinetta form? There was a possibility that the redundant stripped chassis bought was in fact all that survived of the Piacenza car - straightened and stored after a later accident I think.
When it comes down to the question of the car being 'The First Ferrari' this is really a convenient piece of journalese I suppose which a) sold the story and so b) helped pay my family's rent....a factor which readers should perhaps always consider when reading that kind of material...;)
In the sense that the 1947 Piacenza 'first Ferrari' chassis frame could conceivably have survived underneath that later body, the notion seemed to be supported by the evidence presented.
As far as I am concerned there is no doubt in my mind that the 1947 Piacenza car has every right to be regarded as 'the first Ferrari' - while the 1935 Bimotori pair, the 1937-39 Alfetta cars and the 1940 AAC 815s are all variably well qualified as having been 'Ferrari's precursors'.
The Bimotore model was ingeniously confected around basic Alfa Romeo-originated mechanicals.
The Alfetta was a in effect a contract job undertaken for Alfa Romeo and with major components Alfa Romeo-made.
The AAC 815s were Fiat-derived in design and owed much to Nardi...
But the 1941 125S had been tailor-designed from a clean sheet of paper to Ferrari's specific and custom-built commission, and its mechanicals owed virtually nothing to any other manufacturer.
As an entity - therefore - I do indeed regard that car as being the most worthy claimant to the title of being 'the first Ferrari'.
Whether or not a proportion of that original car's structure has come down to us in the form described in my old magazine feature is a matter for further research/debate. I believed it to be highly likely at the time I researched and wrote that piece....and I have seen little definitive evidence since to confirm otherwise.
DCN
#4
Michael Müller
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Posted 27 April 2004 - 10:47
Well, well, so we have this topic again...
The first "real Ferrari" was in fact the s/n 01C which was the Piacenza Roadster. There is some evidence that this car in winter 1947/48 was converted to one of the Grupo Inter's Spyder Corsas, and renumbered #010I.
Second car was #02C, the cycle fender car. It is claimed that this one in 1949 has been renumbered to #020I and sold to Cornacchia as rolling chassis, who ordered a berlinatta body at Touring for it. I do not like to dig too deep into this car's history, because TNF is too public...!
Strange thing is that #020I appeared on the scene when there had still been rumours about the existance of #018I, which later had been withdrawn. Last SC was #016I, only some parts had been numbered already with #018I to #022I. The cars never had been assembled, and engines, transmissions, and rear axles with these numbers had been sold as spares.
The first "real Ferrari" was in fact the s/n 01C which was the Piacenza Roadster. There is some evidence that this car in winter 1947/48 was converted to one of the Grupo Inter's Spyder Corsas, and renumbered #010I.
Second car was #02C, the cycle fender car. It is claimed that this one in 1949 has been renumbered to #020I and sold to Cornacchia as rolling chassis, who ordered a berlinatta body at Touring for it. I do not like to dig too deep into this car's history, because TNF is too public...!
Strange thing is that #020I appeared on the scene when there had still been rumours about the existance of #018I, which later had been withdrawn. Last SC was #016I, only some parts had been numbered already with #018I to #022I. The cars never had been assembled, and engines, transmissions, and rear axles with these numbers had been sold as spares.
#5
GBORSARI
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Posted 27 April 2004 - 13:49
Thanks for the info.
a fascinating subject !!
a fascinating subject !!
#6
ry6
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Posted 27 April 2004 - 17:29
Dear Doug
The local TV people recently showed a story on Mr Ferrari. It was quite good and included some interviews with you.
What interested ,e was the painting in the background when they "shot" you talking.
It looked real good. What car, where, when, who is painter?
Regards
Rob
The local TV people recently showed a story on Mr Ferrari. It was quite good and included some interviews with you.
What interested ,e was the painting in the background when they "shot" you talking.
It looked real good. What car, where, when, who is painter?
Regards
Rob
#7
Doug Nye
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Posted 28 April 2004 - 08:19
It's an oil depicting an Alfa Romeo 8C-35 versus a 1936 Mercedes-Benz on some loose-ish surface faintly suggesting Roosevelt Raceway - painted in the early 1970s by Lionel Rouse. We saw it tucked away in the gloomy recesses of a gallery on Guildford High Street - and I snapped it up for a price we couldn't afford (£40). 
DCN
DCN
#10
Michael Müller
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Posted 28 April 2004 - 19:07
I know this article, and as said, there is some evidence that 010I in fact is the old #01C. Besides what is written by Maestrejuan there are some other indices, e.g. that the front of #010I is different to all other Spyder Corsas, the fact that #010I appeared earlier than #008I, and last but not least that it was delivered to a privateer (Grupo Inter - Sterzi & Troubetskoy). Whereever possible Enzo avoided to sell really new racing cars, and #01C disappeared from the scene in September 1947.
Obviously the text has been copied by OCR software, this would explain the “0101” which must read “010I”.
Stanley Nowak in fact was the first who did research on these early Ferraris as early as the 60’s, but very often he made history fit to the car, and not the other way round. When he sold #004C to Henry Austin Clark he asked - and received - a premium of $ 500 for the “oldest Ferrari existing”, and when he later discovered #002C he was somewhat in trouble with his argumentation. He then brought up various stories, among them that #01C was renumbered #004C, in order to make both customers happy. And when some of his “histories” stood at the point to collapse, he “invented” #03C”, a car which never existed...!
Unfortunately a lot of good old Stan’s “history creations” are still alive today.
Quote from the article: "Probably the car referred to is the Tipo 125 two-seater racing car with cycle mudguards from 1947, number 01C”.
In my opinion this is wrong, the cycle fender car was #02C, #01C was the Piacenza Roadster. This picture shows Enzo himself at the rollout of the very first car, and it is clearly a roadster.
As far I remember also Colombo in his memoirs refers to the Piacenza Roadster as car No. 1, but I’m lacking the time to check at this moment.
Wrong is also that #010I did win the 1950 Gran Premio di Napoli for F2 cars, this was Franco Cortese with his single seater #06C, one of the original Grand Prix cars from 1948 which has been converted to F2, and which was used by Cortese up to 1952.
Obviously the text has been copied by OCR software, this would explain the “0101” which must read “010I”.
Stanley Nowak in fact was the first who did research on these early Ferraris as early as the 60’s, but very often he made history fit to the car, and not the other way round. When he sold #004C to Henry Austin Clark he asked - and received - a premium of $ 500 for the “oldest Ferrari existing”, and when he later discovered #002C he was somewhat in trouble with his argumentation. He then brought up various stories, among them that #01C was renumbered #004C, in order to make both customers happy. And when some of his “histories” stood at the point to collapse, he “invented” #03C”, a car which never existed...!
Unfortunately a lot of good old Stan’s “history creations” are still alive today.
Quote from the article: "Probably the car referred to is the Tipo 125 two-seater racing car with cycle mudguards from 1947, number 01C”.
In my opinion this is wrong, the cycle fender car was #02C, #01C was the Piacenza Roadster. This picture shows Enzo himself at the rollout of the very first car, and it is clearly a roadster.
As far I remember also Colombo in his memoirs refers to the Piacenza Roadster as car No. 1, but I’m lacking the time to check at this moment.
Wrong is also that #010I did win the 1950 Gran Premio di Napoli for F2 cars, this was Franco Cortese with his single seater #06C, one of the original Grand Prix cars from 1948 which has been converted to F2, and which was used by Cortese up to 1952.
#11
Michael Müller
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Posted 28 April 2004 - 19:36
@ Wayne
Don’t want to split my posts between 2 places, so I comment here.
” 01C originally had a full spyder body (not cycle-fendered) when it made it's first appearance at Piacenza in 1947 at the hands of Franco Cortese. With this same coachwork, it also competed in 1948 at the Rome GP, the Cicuito di Vercelli (Coppa Faini), the Mille Miglia, the Circuito di Parma, the Circuito delle Cascine (Florence), and the Circuito di Montenero (Livorno). Ferdinando Righetti later crashed the car during practice in Modena and it was subsequently rebodied with the cycle-fendered coachwork and renumbered 010I.
I believe that 02C was also slated to run at Piacenza (to be driven by Nino Farina, yet never started), but that it was a cycle-fendered car from the beginning.
Again, this is just what I understand from what I've read and information provided by others. I have never personally researched these early cars any further. I would be curious to see what Gerald and others have to say.”
#01C resp. the Rodster in fact was raced Piacenza, Roma, Vercelli, Mille Miglia, Parma, Firenze, and Livorno (with slightly changed bodywork). For Modena the new tipo 159 engine was fitted, but as you say, the car was crashed by Righetti during testing. Therefore Righetti at Modena drove #02C, which now also had a roadster body similar to #01C (already for Pecara #02C had this body).
The picture posted by Gilles in fact shows #02C during the MM 1948, it is exactly the same car as driven at Modena 1947 by Righetti.
By the way, does anybody know what Cortese/Righetti did not finish the 1948 MM?
PS: I feel honoured that in your forum pictures from my archive are posted.....
Don’t want to split my posts between 2 places, so I comment here.
” 01C originally had a full spyder body (not cycle-fendered) when it made it's first appearance at Piacenza in 1947 at the hands of Franco Cortese. With this same coachwork, it also competed in 1948 at the Rome GP, the Cicuito di Vercelli (Coppa Faini), the Mille Miglia, the Circuito di Parma, the Circuito delle Cascine (Florence), and the Circuito di Montenero (Livorno). Ferdinando Righetti later crashed the car during practice in Modena and it was subsequently rebodied with the cycle-fendered coachwork and renumbered 010I.
I believe that 02C was also slated to run at Piacenza (to be driven by Nino Farina, yet never started), but that it was a cycle-fendered car from the beginning.
Again, this is just what I understand from what I've read and information provided by others. I have never personally researched these early cars any further. I would be curious to see what Gerald and others have to say.”
#01C resp. the Rodster in fact was raced Piacenza, Roma, Vercelli, Mille Miglia, Parma, Firenze, and Livorno (with slightly changed bodywork). For Modena the new tipo 159 engine was fitted, but as you say, the car was crashed by Righetti during testing. Therefore Righetti at Modena drove #02C, which now also had a roadster body similar to #01C (already for Pecara #02C had this body).
The picture posted by Gilles in fact shows #02C during the MM 1948, it is exactly the same car as driven at Modena 1947 by Righetti.
By the way, does anybody know what Cortese/Righetti did not finish the 1948 MM?
PS: I feel honoured that in your forum pictures from my archive are posted.....
#12
alessandro silva
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Posted 28 April 2004 - 20:25
Originally posted by Michael Müller
By the way, does anybody know what Cortese/Righetti did not finish the 1948 MM?
Cortese's codriver in the 1948 MM was Adelmo Marchetti (a mechanic I suppose) not Righetti. They arrived in Rome in 5h53m0s behind Nuvolari, 5h40m22s, Sanesi, Alfa, 5h52m55s and preceding Ascari, Maserati, 5h54m20s. No other car arrived in Rome within 6 hours from the start. They retired shortly afterwards with a broken gearbox (Auto Italiana 15/5/1948).
I think it is sure that Farina DNS in Piacenza in the cycle fender car, which was 02C. The roadster was shown to the press in late April whereas I was not able to find any article on 02C before Piacenza. It is also correct, to my knowledge, that 02C received a roadster body for Pescara.
#13
GTE4289
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Posted 28 April 2004 - 20:44
Originally posted by Michael Müller PS: I feel honoured that in your forum pictures from my archive are posted..... [/B]
Michael, thanks for your input. If you don't mind, I would like to post your response in the F-Chat thread as well. As you noticed, I used images from your site to make my point. Again, thanks. You have really built up and identified a great collection of photographs there!
#14
dretceterini
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Posted 28 April 2004 - 21:11
Tino Martinoli was a mechanic with a shop in Rome and eventually came to America as a mechanic with the Ferrari Indy team in the 50s. He actually repaired a spun main bearing on the car so it could run.
He always implied that the first car was 01C and it became 010I. This was mentined by me in a number of letters to the editor in Forza and other Ferrari magazines over the last 10 years or so...
He always implied that the first car was 01C and it became 010I. This was mentined by me in a number of letters to the editor in Forza and other Ferrari magazines over the last 10 years or so...
#15
Michael Müller
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Posted 28 April 2004 - 22:09
@ Alessandro
Cortese / Righetti - oops, sorry, mixed it up with the Targa Florio...
The reason I asked for the DNF in the MM is the fact that #02C later at Pecara appeared with a completely new nose bodywork. I always expected that Cortese crashed it in the Mille Miglia, but transmission failure is no reason for a new nose...
I could not find any entry for #02C between the MM and Pescara, so the new bodywork remains a miracle for me, especially if one considers that #02C was outdated and put out of service after Pescara.
@ Wayne
Surely you can quote me in your Ferrari forum, but I'm lacking the time for simultaneous posting for the time being. Concerning my website, although these data are online it's normally for internal use only. If you don't mind kindly send me an e-mail to michael@axos.nl
Cortese / Righetti - oops, sorry, mixed it up with the Targa Florio...
The reason I asked for the DNF in the MM is the fact that #02C later at Pecara appeared with a completely new nose bodywork. I always expected that Cortese crashed it in the Mille Miglia, but transmission failure is no reason for a new nose...
I could not find any entry for #02C between the MM and Pescara, so the new bodywork remains a miracle for me, especially if one considers that #02C was outdated and put out of service after Pescara.
@ Wayne
Surely you can quote me in your Ferrari forum, but I'm lacking the time for simultaneous posting for the time being. Concerning my website, although these data are online it's normally for internal use only. If you don't mind kindly send me an e-mail to michael@axos.nl
#16
GBORSARI
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Posted 29 April 2004 - 03:51
Thanks guys, for all the info.
I guess things are all straightend out now ??????????
ahhhhhh, the good old days !!
I guess things are all straightend out now ??????????
ahhhhhh, the good old days !!
#17
prova66
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Posted 19 October 2005 - 07:48
...i had a chance to crawl around 010I...and it was a thrill in light of the fact i'm charged with re-restoring 012I...010I, now having a replica piacenza body installed...correctly shaped or not...the first thing i noticed of the chassis was there was no vaccari number on the front cross-member...having a copy of an original 1947 blueprint in my hands, it clearly should...no?....although the correct diff was in place, and a radiatore that was correct for a cycle-fendered corsa...no longer the square radiatore shown in the early photos with enzo...the alleged chassis stamp as stated by Mr. Noon of "symbolic motors"...seemed hastly overstamped, and in no way showed continuity with documented stampings of the genre...the provenence shows it is 010I...and the obviousness of this from 01C is easy to see...but...i continue to wonder...
unconvinced...
p66
unconvinced...
p66
#18
MKIVJ6
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Posted 19 October 2005 - 15:25
Michael
Would you say 002C is the oldest surviving Ferrari as 01C and 02C were scrapped, possibly restamped and possibly reconstructed at a later date than 002C was manufactured?
Best
Would you say 002C is the oldest surviving Ferrari as 01C and 02C were scrapped, possibly restamped and possibly reconstructed at a later date than 002C was manufactured?
Best
#19
Michael Müller
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Posted 19 October 2005 - 15:43
Hello James,
basically yes. #01C was not scrapped, there are a lot of good reasons to believe that it was rebodied and restamped to #010I somewhere in winter 1947/48. For #02C the story is different, I doubt the renumbering to #020I.
For any lawyer reading this:
This is only my personal opinion, and in no case a public statement!
basically yes. #01C was not scrapped, there are a lot of good reasons to believe that it was rebodied and restamped to #010I somewhere in winter 1947/48. For #02C the story is different, I doubt the renumbering to #020I.
For any lawyer reading this:
This is only my personal opinion, and in no case a public statement!
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#20
zg1972
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Posted 25 January 2009 - 11:56
I have recently came upon this thread and wanted to revive it with a somewhat different question: are the chassis numbers of the three 125 Grand Prix cars that debuted at Valentino Park in 1948 known?
I was unable to find any such information, in fact I've never seen 125's chassis numbers for 1948-49.
I was unable to find any such information, in fact I've never seen 125's chassis numbers for 1948-49.
#21
Michael Müller
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Posted 25 January 2009 - 12:04
02C, 04C, 06C
But don't know which was which.
But don't know which was which.
#22
zg1972
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Posted 25 January 2009 - 13:32
Very good, thank you! Hopefully someone would also provide the information to connect the chassis to the drivers.Originally posted by Michael Müller
02C, 04C, 06C
But don't know which was which.
#23
Michael Müller
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Posted 25 January 2009 - 14:15
For 1949 this is known, for 1948 I tried for 9 years now and failed...
#24
ERault
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Posted 25 January 2009 - 16:24
Don't be so hard on yourself ! More seriously, I know of the very thorough research you have been conducting on early Ferraris for years. Are you planing to publish, maybe in a book ?
#25
Michael Müller
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Posted 25 January 2009 - 20:53
Still too much unsolved questions. For writing a book even deeper research is required, which would mean diving into archives (Ferrari, newspapers, magazines etc.). I'm lacking the time to do so, and I don't speak Italian. May be when I'm on retirement...
#26
Arjan de Roos
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Posted 27 July 2016 - 14:01
Having read Motorsport this week, Doug Nye posted a request for a picture of the 'other' Ferrari that was present at Piacenza but was shunted by Farina and DNS. This SC (Cigar) is/was an unknown to many.
No one here at TNF maybe has this elusive picture? Now I could think of maybe finding a picture in an Italian newspaper archive or local photographers. Yet TNF has surprised so often.
Doug also mentioned the car had number 1, yet this page suggested the car would have had 166. http://www.racingspo...1947-05-11e.jpg
(Courtey RacingSportsCars.com).
Did Ferrari want to promote his cars with running number 128 (for the 125) and 166 for the SC, he was a number guy?
#27
group7
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Posted 27 July 2016 - 16:55
there is mention of Farina in a "125 S" at Piacenza on May 11th. 1947 in this article. can't read Italian so don't really know if there is any info here.
http://www.modelfoxb...947_Ferrari.htm
Mike
