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Before we lose track...the Black Books case history


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#51 Kvadrat

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Posted 17 June 2004 - 07:08

I have NO any copy of original Black Books, but once I got volumes 5, 6 and 7 for some time and scanned them. So now I DO have copies, not originals.

Barry, was your idea to give information on how to find someone who can make copy or share information from the Black Books for others, who have not them? I'de like to find someone of the books owners who could help me.

And is it good or bad that I scanned these quite expensive and rare books and gave copies to my fellow real motor racing history enthusiasts?

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#52 Darren Galpin

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Posted 17 June 2004 - 07:25

Acquired the three I have in the last three years or so, and have never seen any for sale elsewhere apart from the places Vitesse mentions (and the prices the books fetched made me blanche a little. I just can't bring myself (yet!) to spend quite that much on a book which is quite that small).

Vitesse - is Book Barn still open? The last time I was down in Somerset, the shops in Wells and Glastonbury had closed, so is there another one which is still open?

I got to hear about the black books first from Jimmy Piget, who asked me why I never acknowledged them as a source on my website. That was because I had never heard of them, seen them, or used them, and I didn't know who Paul Sheldon was. Then Felix showed me his collection, and since then I've been on the lookout, and picked them up when I have found them cheap. I still hold on to the little faint hope that one day I might find one in a charity shop.......

#53 Frank de Jong

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Posted 17 June 2004 - 07:51

I bought the record book and milestones behind the marques both very cheap in the early 80's (the record book for an equivalent of 4 euros - and they had piles of them in the netherlands).
In those days I was very intyerested in F1 statistics and chassis numbers, both books have given me hours and hours of enjoyment.

#54 David McKinney

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Posted 17 June 2004 - 08:06

Originally posted by Kvadrat
And is it good or bad that I scanned these quite expensive and rare books and gave copies to my fellow real motor racing history enthusiasts?

If you had sold them to your friends it would definitely be a breach of copyright.
I suspect any copying is a breach as well

#55 Kvadrat

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Posted 17 June 2004 - 08:46

I didn't sold, I just gave them discs with files. So if I ask a certain person for scanning or copying of his book, would it be bad? May be stupid question, but I sincerely don't know answer.

And I'm going to ask for copying the books some of TNFers who have them.

#56 Vitesse2

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Posted 17 June 2004 - 09:15

Originally posted by Darren Galpin
Vitesse - is Book Barn still open? The last time I was down in Somerset, the shops in Wells and Glastonbury had closed, so is there another one which is still open?

Very much so, as Vanwall can attest: he and I spent a couple of hours there back in January! They transferred all the stock from Glastonbury and the two Wells shops to a new "Country Book Barn", on the Hallatrow Business Park, which is at White Cross on the A37, just north of Farrington Gurney (travelling south, turn left just after the Gatso!). It's enormous (four or five times the size of the bigger Wells shop), but they're having to build an extension because they're running out of space! There's also a very good pub within 200 yards - the Old Station Inn: very well-kept beer and good food!

There's also a new Book Barn closer to you, which I haven't yet visited, in Brislington (not sure exactly where) - they did a deal with Bristol libraries to buy a lot of withdrawn stock, so I suspect most of that went in there.

Originally posted by Darren Galpin
I still hold on to the little faint hope that one day I might find one in a charity shop.......

:rotfl: :rotfl:

#57 Bengt

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Posted 17 June 2004 - 13:36

When the Black Books where first released it was like manna from heaven for a fact starved Scandinavian like me. I wasn't alone in the universe of collecting statistics from old motor races. When the Internet became available... I just died!

My contribution to this list:

Volume 1: unnumbered
Volume 2: 135
Volume 3: 207
Volume 4: 119
Volume 5: unnumbered
Volume 6: unnumbered
Volume 7: 217
Volume 8: 194
Volume 9: 148
Volume 10: unnumbered

Record of the RAC Hillclimb Championship: 53
F1 Record Book 1966 (Don't know the number)

F1R Fact Book F3 1953-55
F1R Fact Book F3 1956-58
F1R Fact Book F3 1959-62
F1R Fact Book F3 1964-66
F1R Fact Book F3 1967-69
F1R Fact Book F3 1970-72
F1R Fact Book F3 1973-77
F1R Fact Book F3 1978-84
F1R Fact Book F3 1985-88

F1R Fact Book FJ 1958-61
F1R Fact Book FJ 1962-64

F1R Fact Book Tasman 1964-70/F5000 1968-71
F1R Fact Book F5000 72-1981

F1R Fact Books on F1/F2 1976-78
F1R Fact Books on F1/F2 1979-81
F1R Fact Books on F1/F2 1972-84

#58 Allen Brown

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Posted 18 June 2004 - 13:10

OK, this will make you jealous. I have the 1965-69 Volume 8 in electronic form - Paul's word processing files. He and I talked about how we might convert it to a database or HTML form but the (Apple) word processing software he used proved inpenetrable.

But this was about five to eight years ago. I have no idea where the files are now :(

Allen

#59 Don Capps

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Posted 18 June 2004 - 13:56

Allen, Betty and I went back and forth on this several years ago -- about the time you mention, but after checking with my resident Technogeeks realized that, sadly, it would be a lost cause and dropped the idea of getting the files. :( Don

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#60 Ruairidh

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Posted 18 June 2004 - 15:12

Originally posted by Barry Boor
I was thinking of starting a thread for those who have (whisper it) NO black books! :(

You have no idea how utterly inadequate I now feel.....


Me too.

Is there any chance these will be reprinted?

#61 petefenelon

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Posted 18 June 2004 - 16:03

I only have Milestones behind the Marques. :(

#62 Phil Harms

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Posted 19 June 2004 - 04:09

Originally posted by Allen Brown
OK, this will make you jealous. I have the 1965-69 Volume 8 in electronic form - Paul's word processing files. He and I talked about how we might convert it to a database or HTML form but the (Apple) word processing software he used proved inpenetrable.

But this was about five to eight years ago. I have no idea where the files are now :(

Allen


A couple of years ago Paul provided me with 1900-1950 in electronic form in MS Word format. Just as they appear in the books. This may have been in response to my unsuccessful search (STILL) for Vol 7. Wouldn't it be nice if they were available in PDFs on a CD? I really should check with him and see if he has any interest in this. Of course Vol 7 is 1960-64, so maybe that wasn't the reason.

#63 Ruairidh

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Posted 19 June 2004 - 05:13

Originally posted by Phil Harms


Wouldn't it be nice if they were available in PDFs on a CD? I really should check with him and see if he has any interest in this.


Yes it would be nice!!!!!

#64 Alan Lewis

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Posted 19 June 2004 - 16:01

Originally posted by fines

:lol: That's probably the one I sent back to Paul complaining about the fact, and receiving a pristine one for exchange. Should've noted the #, though, I wonder how many were fouled up. :confused:


Then thank you, Michael, for sending it back!

Like I said; who cares about stuff like upside down pages? None of the information is actually missing and I don't buy them to display and make the neighbours jealous, I buy them to use. The same with the Volume XII that Mill House wouldn't give me - I still don't know exactly what "insufficient quality" meant because they never let me see it. Ah well.

I'm sure it all stems, as Don correctly mentioned, from remembering how it used to be. There has been such an explosion of racing literature in the last twenty years or so that we forget there was a time when you couldn't find out anything about anything. When the Black Books came out, I thought I'd died and gone to heaven (where I found that Janos Wimpfen had done the same thing for sportscar racing).

APL

#65 Kvadrat

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Posted 21 June 2004 - 06:04

Originally posted by Allen Brown
...I have the 1965-69 Volume 8 in electronic form - Paul's word processing files. He and I talked about how we might convert it to a database or HTML ...


It could take a lot of time but it worth it. I could make this job.

#66 Frank de Jong

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Posted 21 June 2004 - 07:24

Originally posted by Allen Brown
OK, this will make you jealous. I have the 1965-69 Volume 8 in electronic form - Paul's word processing files. He and I talked about how we might convert it to a database or HTML form but the (Apple) word processing software he used proved inpenetrable.

But this was about five to eight years ago. I have no idea where the files are now :(

Allen


I can hardly imagine why. Any Apple wordprocessing software can export to flat text. From there, the sky is the limit.
My early (apple) HTML pages have been processed into (windows) excel and from there into an apple database (filemaker); from there, a script generates my web pages these days (unix perl)

The difficult part is the processing of the data (clearing typos, double entries etc), and writing the script - not the apple/windows link, in my view.

Frank
Apple user since 1986...

#67 Roger Clark

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Posted 28 June 2004 - 21:41

for those who are interested, here is the Register as published on this thread. We have one duplicate.

Volume 1
(All unnumbered)
Roger Clark
David Mc Kinney
Rewind
ensign14
vitesse 2
Jeremy Jackson
Rob G
Tim Murray
Rob29
Don Capps
Felix Muelas
Brian Lear
Conjohn
Adam Ferrington
M Tanney
Fines
Allen Brown
Barry Lake
Marcor
Darren Galpin
Hans Etzrodt
Alan Lewis
Hugo Boecker
gerrit stevens
Bengt
Volume 2
3 ensign14
20 Jeremy Jackson
42 conjohn
44 Hans Etzrodt
45 rewind
47 Adam Ferrington
78 Allen Brown
105 Hugo Boecker
122 Tim Murray
133 Don Capps
135 Bengt
157 fines
171 Rob29
173 Alan Lewis
192 M Tanney
322 Brian Lear
349 vitesse 2
406 gerrit stevens
422 Felix Muelas
428 Roger Clark
440 Rob G
448 Marcor
Unnumbered David McKinney
?? Barry Lake
Volume 3
8 Jeremy Jackson
28 M Tanney
49 conjohn
61 ensign14
69 Don Capps
102 gerrit stevens
105 Rob29
106 d.c.a. mulcahy
108 Roger Clark
122 Alan Lewis
153 Adam Ferrington
188 Hugo Boecker
207 Bengt
231 Hans Etzrodt
242 Tim Murray
262 Brian Lear
266 rewind
294 David McKinney
301 Allen Brown
322 fines
337 vitesse 2
484 Rob G
499 Felix Muelas
?? Barry Lake
Volume 4
4 vitesse 2
6 Jeremy Jackson
49 conjohn
53 ensign14
60 rewind
93 Adam Ferrington
117 Brian Lear
119 Bengt
151 Rob29
157 Alan Lewis
172 Hans Etzrodt
188 fines
193 Adam Ferrington
199 M Tanney
226 Don Capps
232 Hugo Boecker
248 Allen Brown
285 David McKinney
279 Tim Murray
385 Roger Clark
404 Rob G
405 gerrit stevens
433 Felix Muelas
?? Barry Lake
Volume 5
(All unnumbered)
Roger Clark
David McKinney
Rewind
ensign14
vitesse 2
Jeremy Jackson
Rob Ryder
Tim Murray
Rob29
Don Capps
Felix Muelas
Brian Lear
Conjohn
Adam Ferrington
M Tanney
Fines
Allen Brown
d.c.a. mulcahy
?? Barry Lake
Darren Galpin
Stefan Ornerdal
Alan Lewis
Hugo Boecker
gerrit stevens
Bengt
Volume 6
(All unnumbered)
Roger Clark
David McKinney
Rewind
ensign14
vitesse 2
Jeremy Jackson
Rob Ryder
Tim Murray
Rob29
Don Capps
Felix Muelas
Brian Lear
Conjohn
Adam Ferrington
M Tanney
Fines
Allen Brown
d.c.a. mulcahy
Barry Lake
Marcor
Darren Galpin
Stefan Ornerdal
Alan Lewis
Hugo Boecker
gerrit stevens
Bengt
Volume 7
7 conjohn
39 fines
42 Allen Brown
63 d.c.a. mulcahy
84 ensign14
96 Tim Murray
110 rewind
155 M Tanney
157 Don Capps
200 Hugo Boecker
217 Bengt
240 Alan Lewis
275 Adam Ferrington
277 Roger Clark
296 Jeremy Jackson
316 Brian Lear
404 David McKinney
unnumbered Felix Muelas
?? Barry Lake
Volume 8
44 conjohn
48 ensign14
61 Alan Lewis
66 Allen Brown
71 Hugo Boecker
79 rewind
80 Don Capps
121 fines
194 Bengt
203 Tim Murray
219 Adam Ferrington
228 David McKinney
264 Brian Lear
283 gerrit stevens
315 Stefan Ornerdal
320 Jeremy Jackson
342 Felix Muelas
372 Roger Clark
406 d.c.a. mulcahy
unnumbered Rob Ryder
?? Barry Lake
Volume 9
4 Adam Ferrington
30 ensign14
33 Allen Brown
40 conjohn
58 fines
86 Tim Murray
113 Jeremy Jackson
148 Bengt
163 Hugo Boecker
186 Alan Lewis
194 rewind
198 Don Capps
228 d.c.a. mulcahy
268 gerrit stevens
297 Felix Muelas
300 Brian Lear
312 Stefan Ornerdal
487 Roger Clark
unnumbered Rob Ryder
?? Barry Lake
Volume 10
5 Adam Ferrington
32 rewind
35 fines
40 Jeremy Jackson
42 Alan Lewis
46 conjohn
59 Allen Brown
79 ensign14
89 Hugo Boecker
100 Don Capps
146 Felix Muelas
244 gerrit stevens
247 Tim Murray
287 Rob Ryder
289 Brian Lear
289 Stefan Ornerdal
293 Roger Clark

?? Barry Lake
Not numbered Bengt

Volume 11
6 Jeremy Jackson
8 Felix Muelas
26 fines
47 Alan Lewis
91 ensign14
98 conjohn
100 Allen Brown
105 rewind
135 Stefan Ornerdal
143 Brian Lear
150 Roger Clark
159 Rob Ryder
167 Adam Ferrington
180 Don Capps
183 Tim Murray
?? Barry Lake
no number Hugo Boecker
Volume 12
33 Hugo Boecker
56 ensign14
79 conjohn
83 Jeremy Jackson
85 Adam Ferrington
94 Brian Lear
101 rewind
121 Rob Ryder
124 Alan Lewis
?? Barry Lake

Addendum
(All unnumbered)
Jeremy Jackson
ensign14
Roger Clark
Rob G
Don Capps
Conjohn
Adam Ferrington
M Tanney
Allen Brown
Barry Lake
Record of RAC British Hill Climb Championship
53 Bengt
54 ensign14
60 Allen Brown
71 Roger Clark
97 Adam Ferrington
114 Alan Lewis
?? Barry Lake
Record of South African F1
41 Don Capps
42 Allen Brown
59 Adam Ferrington
93 Felix Muelas
94 ensign14
unnumbered Ron Scoma
Barry Lake
Record of Tasman Racing 1960-69
51 Roger Clark
79 Brian Lear
99 Allen Brown
100 conjohn
?? David McKinney

Tasman formula 1964-70/ F5000 1968-71
Brian Lear
Allen Brown
Barry Lake
gerrit stevens
Bengt
Ensign14
1966 yearbook
15 conjohn
39 Allen Brown
65 Alan Lewis
106 ensign14
192 Rob29
204 Don Capps
221 fines
234 Hugo Boecker
?? Barry Lake
?? Bengt
Formula 1 & 2 Factbook 1976-78
Fines
Don Capps
Hugo Boecker
Bengt
Formula 1 Factbook 1979-81
Fines
Don Capps
Hugo Boecker
Bengt
Formula 1 Factbook 1982-84
Hugo Boecker
Bengt
Factbook 1985-87
Don Capps
Barry Lake
Hugo Boecker
Factbook 1989
Don Capps
Formula 3 1947-52
Rob29
Roger Clark
David McKinney
fines
Formula 3 1953-55
Brian Lear
Barry Lake
Bengt
Formula 3 1956-63
Barry Lake
Formula 3 1956-54
Bengt
Formula 3 1959-62
Bengt
Formula Junior 1958-61
Don Capps
Felix Muelas
David McKinney
Fines
Barry Lake
Hugo Boecker
Bengt
Formula Junior 1962-64
Don Capps
Felix Muelas
David McKinney
Brian Lear
Fines
Hugo Boecker
Bengt
Formula 3 1964-66
Don Capps
Barry Lake
Bengt
Formula 3 1967-69
Rob29
Don Capps
Bengt
Formula 3 1970-72
Don Capps
Barry Lake
Bengt
Formula 3 1973-77
Don Capps
Barry Lake
Bengt
Formula 3 1978-84
Bengt
Formula 3 1985-88
Bengt
Formula 3 1989-91
Roger Clark
Fines
Barry Lake
Formula 3 1992-94
Fines
Barry Lake
F5000 (Euro) 1969/72
Don Capps
Hugo Boecker
F5000 (Euro) 1973/77
Don Capps
Hugo Boecker


F5000 1972-81
Brian Lear
Allen Brown
Barry Lake
Ensign14
gerrit stevens
Bengt

#68 Vitesse2

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Posted 28 June 2004 - 21:57

Amazing that numbers 44 and 45 of vol 2 have ended up at almost diametrically opposite points on the surface of the Earth! Once upon a time they were sitting on the same kitchen table in Shipley ... and the alleged duplicates are unlikely to meet either, as one's in Australia and the other's in Sweden! I wonder who has the anti-matter one .... :p

#69 DoubleFault

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Posted 29 June 2004 - 06:04

Vol I: no number, bought on-line at Chaters in 2003, 60 J
Vol V: no number, bought at Chaters bookstore, London in 1996, 48 J
Vol VI: 392, bought at Chaters bookstore, London in 1996, 48 J
Vol VII: 484, bought at Chaters bookstore, London in 1996, 48 J

Originally posted by Kvadrat
I have NO any copy of original Black Books, but once I got volumes 5, 6 and 7 for some time and scanned them. So now I DO have copies, not originals.



Couple of years ago volumes V-VII were given to Kvadrat (of course, free) for copying for his personal use, not for distributing. I specially ask him not to put copies to public domain. But if hi published them on his f1.experts.tomsk.ru website (I did not follow the site and I am not sure that it was the case) or reproduced them by some other way for his fellow motor sport enthusiasts, electronic copies of vol V-VII may be distributed as widely as Schlegelmilch's album scans which were made from my original books and published at 'experts' website.

Originally posted by Kvadrat
And is it good or bad that I scanned these quite expensive and rare books and gave copies to my fellow real motor racing history enthusiasts?



Answering the childish question "what is good and what is bad"...

To share the information among 'real motor racing history enthusiasts' is definitely GOOD, but to share it via direct reproducing of copyrighted materials (books, photos, videos) is definitely BAD and against copyright laws.

Moreover, I suppose that it's against the natural approach for any researcher.

Collecting information and distributing it in initial form (i.e., reproducing of books) isn't a way for real motor racing researcher. Researcher tries to create his own 'new results' using available info - i.e., review, article, database etc - any product where the initial information is somehow processed by researcher's mind and hands.

So, I think that Kvadrat needs to find his own approach how to RESEARCH and present the hudge amount of information he has.

#70 fines

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Posted 29 June 2004 - 09:42

Now for something completely different...

The 2004 TNF Formula One Register Championship


Pos	Name		Total	Vol 2	Vol 3	Vol 4	Vol 7	Vol 8	Vol 9	Vol 10	Vol 11	Vol 12

1	conjohn		39	4	4	4	9	9	3	1	1	4

2	ensign14		37	9	3	3	2	6	6	-	2	6

3	Jeremy Jackson	36	6	9	6	-	-	-	3	9	3

4	Adam Ferrington	22	1	-	1	-	-	9	9	-	2

5	fines		16	-	-	-	6	-	2	4	4	-

6	Allen Brown	11	-	-	-	4	3	4	-	-	-

6	Hugo Boecker	11	-	-	-	-	2	-	-	-	9

6	ReWind		11	2	-	2	-	1	-	6	-	-

9	Alan Lewis	9	-	-	-	-	4	-	2	3	-

9	Vitesse2		9	-	-	9	-	-	-	-	-	-

11	Felix Muelas	6	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	6	-

11	M Tanney		6	-	6	-	-	-	-	-	-	-

13	d.c.a. mulcahy	3	-	-	-	3	-	-	-	-	-

13	Hans Etzrodt	3	3	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-

15	Don Capps		2	-	2	-	-	-	-	-	-	-

15	Tim Murray	2	-	-	-	1	-	1	-	-	-

17	Brian Lear	1	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	1

17	gerrit stevens	1	-	1	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
:blush:

#71 Phil Harms

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Posted 29 June 2004 - 10:56

For those who appreciate any stats ----

Vol 2 634
Vol 3 424
Vol 4 429
Vol 8 345
Vol 9 304
Vol 10 254
Vol 12 8

#72 David Hyland

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Posted 30 June 2004 - 01:47

I can't believe I have missed/ignored this thread for so long. My collection:

Vol 1: #17
Vol 5: #47
Vol 6: #56

Can't remember where I bought them - probably Mill House Books. It was a long time ago...

#73 ReWind

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Posted 30 June 2004 - 17:44

Originally posted by fines (28 Jun 04, 11:54 h, in another thread)
I'm not really interested in this Championship stuff.

Originally posted by fines (29 Jun 04, 10:42 h, in this thread)
Now for something completely different...

The 2004 TNF Formula One Register Championship

Wow, what a difference a day makes! :rotfl:

And something more from my book-shelf:
Formula 1 Register Record Book 1966: # 34
A Record of Tasman Formula Racing: # 98 (out of 100!)

#74 Criceto

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Posted 01 July 2004 - 10:43

Don't you just hate it when people jump in long after someone's done all the statistical hard work...

With apologies to those who have been drafting the lists, my addition to the register:

Record of Grand Prix & Voiturette Racing v1 purchased from Chaters, Isleworth
Record of Grand Prix & Voiturette Racing v2 #429 Simon Lewis
Record of Grand Prix & Voiturette Racing v3 #270 Simon Lewis
Record of Grand Prix & Voiturette Racing v4 #434 Motorbooks London (I think)
Record of Grand Prix & Voiturette Racing v5 Chris Knapman's Collectors Carbooks
Record of Grand Prix & Voiturette Racing v6 Chaters, Isleworth
Record of Grand Prix & Voiturette Racing v8 #405 Chris Knapman
F1 Register Fact Book Formula 1 & 2 1976-1978 Chris Knapman
F1 Register Fact Book Formula 1 & 2 1979-1981 Chris Knapman
F1 Register Fact Book Formula 1 & 2 1982-1984 Chris Knapman
F1 Register Fact Book Formula 3 1947-1952 Chaters, Brands Hatch
F1 Register Fact Book Formula 3 1953-1955 TE Warth, USA
F1 Register Fact Book Formula 3 1956-1962 Foyles, central London, filed under English History!
F1 Register Fact Book Formula 3 1964-1966 Chaters, Isleworth
F1 Register Fact Book Formula 3 1973-1977 Chaters, Isleworth
F1 Register Fact Book Formula 3 1989-1991 Simon Lewis
F1 Register Fact Book Formula 5000 1972-1981 Chris Knapman
Record of South African Formula Racing #73 Chris Knapman
Record of Tasman Formula Racing #63 Mill House
Record of Motor Racing at Goodwood #34 direct from Robert Barker, author

#75 Alan Lewis

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Posted 03 July 2004 - 16:23

Originally posted by fines
Now for something completely different...


I would just like to say how proud Team Short Bald Bloke are to have finished in the top ten of this season's Championship, particularly as it was almost certainly raining here in Northumberland when we gained our Volume 8 podium finish, and we are looking forward to taking full advantage of the travel and other benefits that we are now entitled to from "Bernie" Fines' magnificent organisation in 2005.

APL

#76 Vitesse2

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Posted 03 July 2004 - 22:13

[DC mode]Next year ....[/DC mode]

Just shows up the inequalities of the scoring system, since ensign14 has beaten Adam Ferrington and Jeremy Jackson, despite having only one win to their two each! Perhaps we should rename him Keke ..... :rolleyes:

And how come David Hyland's 5 & 6 are numbered? No-one else's are! :confused:

#77 David Hyland

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Posted 05 July 2004 - 00:43

Originally posted by Vitesse2
And how come David Hyland's 5 & 6 are numbered? No-one else's are! :confused:

They're not really. I was just seeing if anyone was paying attention ;)

#78 Kvadrat

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Posted 05 July 2004 - 04:18

Originally posted by DoubleFault
Couple of years ago volumes V-VII were given to Kvadrat (of course, free) for copying for his personal use, not for distributing. I specially ask him not to put copies to public domain. But if hi published them on his f1.experts.tomsk.ru website (I did not follow the site and I am not sure that it was the case) or reproduced them by some other way for his fellow motor sport enthusiasts, electronic copies of vol V-VII may be distributed as widely as Schlegelmilch's album scans which were made from my original books and published at 'experts' website.


I kept my word and NEVER put these scans into F1Archive website. And I did not break our agreement on private copying (do you remember it?). Those person who get files from me are really respectable.

Originally posted by DoubleFault
Answering the childish question "what is good and what is bad"...


I confess that some of my questions like "what is good" are stupid, but I really don't understand it and seek for determination.

Originally posted by DoubleFault
To share the information among 'real motor racing history enthusiasts' is definitely GOOD, but to share it via direct reproducing of copyrighted materials (books, photos, videos) is definitely BAD and against copyright laws.

Moreover, I suppose that it's against the natural approach for any researcher.

Collecting information and distributing it in initial form (i.e., reproducing of books) isn't a way for real motor racing researcher. Researcher tries to create his own 'new results' using available info - i.e., review, article, database etc - any product where the initial information is somehow processed by researcher's mind and hands.

So, I think that Kvadrat needs to find his own approach how to RESEARCH and present the hudge amount of information he has.


It's very sad if you think that my aim is just to collect as more information as possible with no working on it. Copying books isn't research but it's way of helping researchers each other. It's like public library where everybody can read every book. But my collection of information is a part of little motor racing researchers' club. We feel free sharing any information inside this club. And this helps us in our activity. Which activity? May be it's quite little, but we are just beginning in understanding of motor sports of the past.

My favourite period is 40-es, first half of the 50-es and now I started working on 30-es by compiling of 1934 races full list. How can I do this? Only by using of available information. I don't have Black Books Volume IV, so main sources are Leif Snellmann's and Quintin Cloud's websites. While working on this table I found statistics of Mannin Moar race and LAT's picture from a race with similar name - Mannin Beg. Was it the same race or two different? What's the difference? This happened before I found Mannin Beg statistics in Quintin Cloud's files. I made search by keywords on my PC where all TNF threads are stored and found some themes which explained that there were two separate races in Douglas. 'Mannin' means 'Manx', 'beg' means 'little', 'moar' means 'big'. So Mannin Beg was race for minor cars class and Mannin Moar was Grand Prix cars race. After this I added one more race to my list. Also I added these names explanations to file called British Motorsports in which I collect information which helps to follow British Motorsports traditions throughout the years.

Another example. I watched some motor racing features on Discovery, Eurosport and local sports channels and even captured them into AVI files. Then I captured a lot of films' frames on old races. It's very useful stuff as there are not so much visual information on years before 60-es. Some pictures are still unidentified, and I plan to put them into next part of my The X-Pics series.

There was a footage of a race with Jim Clark. And only Sheldon statistics helped to find out that starting grid on the screen is from 1963 International Gold Cup race at Oulton Park. Then I moved these pictures to this race's folder in my archive.

Finally I want to mention recent thread 'Alfa Romeo at Crystal Palace and Donington 1938'. John Medley told about 1938 Crystal Palace races statistics including full lap times and race charts. How I wish I could see them! I want to reconstruct race's events, which would give some imagination on how it used to be in those far and legendary years.

Isn't it 'natural approach for any researcher'?

And my friends do in the same way. Information I gave them helps them in their personal researches of their personal favourite periods. They also give a lot of very useful information. We collect money and buy used books via the Internet for common using inside our club. It's the only way we can obtain them all because everyone of us has too little money.

#79 humphries

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Posted 06 July 2004 - 19:39

Black Books Vol 1-12

Vol 2 #66,
Vol 3 #152
Vol 4 #66
Vol 7 #143
Vol 8 #331
Vol 9 #279
Vol 10 #214
Vol 11 #164
Vol 12 #93

Tasman #64
1966 #68
Hillclimb #86

Addenda, all the 500cc, F. .Junior, F3 books, draft books for F5000 ( Most in tatters and bulging with extra pages - even my Black Books are used as working documents; sacrilege? )

JH

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#80 Arjan de Roos

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Posted 07 July 2004 - 07:16

Any news on the release of the Black CD by Mr. Sheldon??

#81 Henk Vasmel

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Posted 14 July 2004 - 20:33

A bit late, due to holidays etc. I consider these books the core of my collection. However I detect a loss of interest after about 1975. My collection of chassis numbers from before I discovered these books after this date seems to be more comprehensive, especially for spare cars. On the other hand, for older races, I think no collection beats the black books. So much so, that I sort of stopped collecting information on Formula 1 etc. before 1960, except when a very specialistic book appears. That is not as bad as it sounds, because I changed my emphasis to sports car races. Janos Wimpffen (my hero) only treats championship races, and there are lots and lots of others. So many in fact that it hard to see where to draw the line.

But before I digress (too late!), here is my Collection:

The Formula 1 Record Book
Milestones Behind The Marques

A Record Of Grand Prix And Voiturette Racing Vol. 1 – No Number
A Record Of Grand Prix And Voiturette Racing Vol. 2 – Number 118
A Record Of Grand Prix And Voiturette Racing Vol. 3 – Number 130
A Record Of Grand Prix And Voiturette Racing Vol. 4 – Number 133
A Record Of Grand Prix And Voiturette Racing Vol. 5 – No Number
A Record Of Grand Prix And Voiturette Racing Vol. 6 – No Number
A Record Of Grand Prix And Voiturette Racing Vol. 7 – Number 104
A Record Of Grand Prix And Voiturette Racing Vol. 8 – Number 138
A Record Of Grand Prix And Voiturette Racing Vol. 9 – Number 118
A Record Of Grand Prix And Voiturette Racing Vol. 10 – Number 162
A Record Of Grand Prix And Voiturette Racing Vol. 11 – Number 15
A Record Of Grand Prix And Voiturette Racing Vol. 12 – Number 127
A Record Of Grand Prix And Voiturette Racing, Addenda

Formula 1 Register Record Book 1966 – Number 201
Formula 1 Register Fact Book 1989

Formula 5000 Fact Book 1969-1972 (Europe)
Formula 5000 Fact Book 1973-1977 (Europe)

Tasman Formula 1964-1970 / F.5000 1968-1971
Formula 5000 1972-1981

Formula 1 And 2 Fact Book 1976-1978
Formula 1 And 2 Fact Book 1979-1981
Formula 1 And 2 Fact Book 1982-1984
Formula 1 And 3000 Fact Book 1985-1987

Kind Regards,

Henk Vasmel

#82 David Beard

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Posted 06 June 2007 - 19:15

Originally posted by Arjan de Roos
Any news on the release of the Black CD by Mr. Sheldon??


Yeah...

#83 Arjan de Roos

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Posted 06 June 2007 - 20:48

"Yeah?" as in "Yes" or as in "Yeah right"? :)

#84 David Beard

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Posted 06 June 2007 - 21:24

Originally posted by Arjan de Roos
"Yeah?" as in "Yes" or as in "Yeah right"? :)


58 year olds don't say "yeah right" ;)

#85 Doug Nye

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Posted 06 June 2007 - 21:53

I am a great fan of Dr Paul's Registers, produced in conjunction with others including Duncan Rabagliati and John Thompson, even though they include the usual percentage of misinformation from which all of us suffer. I have to say that I think the creation of an owner's club Register is a wonderful accolade for Paul and his missis - who has done a vast percentage of the Real Work - and one that I doubt has ever been afforded any other motoring book title or series.

Or does anybody know better?

DCN

#86 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 07 June 2007 - 06:20

Paul Sheldon’s work had inspired me many years ago to dig through my sources in search to fill some of the existing gaps plus a few corrections in the first four Volumes. These "Black Books" represented the era of my immediate interest and at that time I mailed these additions to St Leonards Press. I have tremendous respect for his indispensable volumes and still admire the laborious work of Dr. Sheldon and his "Gang". Volumes 1 to 4, today, are still my most important books out of several hundreds inside my collection.

Did Paul Sheldon ever receive a reward for his work of the "Black Books"? Like an Oscar of the Guild of Motoring Writers perhaps?

#87 ensign14

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Posted 07 June 2007 - 08:37

I've got a vol 13 now as well, but I can't remember the number (it was unnumbered at the time but Duncan's daughter kindly sent a signed plate through), I'm about 4 hours' drive away from it. From memory it was in the 50s.

#88 Doug Nye

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Posted 07 June 2007 - 09:00

Originally posted by Hans Etzrodt
Did Paul Sheldon ever receive a reward for his work of the "Black Books"? Like an Oscar of the Guild of Motoring Writers perhaps?


One needs to be a member first...

DCN

#89 Stephen W

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Posted 07 June 2007 - 09:19

Originally posted by Hans Etzrodt
Paul Sheldon’s work had inspired me many years ago to dig through my sources in search to fill some of the existing gaps plus a few corrections in the first four Volumes.


Just like Hanz I was inspired by Paul's A RECORD OF THE R.A.C. BRITISH HILLCLIMB CHAMPIONSHIP 1947 - 1994 and have spent a lot of time getting to grips with the British Sprint Championship's history which was covered in the above book as an appendix. The fruits of my labours are on the BMSA website (www.britishsprint.org).

I am now looking to start collecting the 'Black Books' covering the 1970s and 80s.

:wave:

#90 Allen Brown

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Posted 07 June 2007 - 10:20

The Guild of Motoring Writers says it's for journalists, photographers and broadcasters. I'm not sure Paul fits those categories. I would see him as a historian first and foremost.

Like Steve, I was inspired by Paul's Milestones behind the Marques and John's initial 1974 Formula One Record Book to begin my reseach in 1978.

Allen

#91 D-Type

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Posted 07 June 2007 - 10:39

Given that any half-decent motoring writer will have made use of the 'black books' either themselves or in the plagiarised versions on various websites, surely the Guild of Motoring Writers should make Paul and his team Honorary Members.

From one who has none of the books but is aware of the value of the content.

#92 Hieronymus

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Posted 07 June 2007 - 10:59

For what it is worth to those that keep track...I have:

Vol. 8 (Number 133)
Vol. 9 (Number 61)
Vol. 10 (Number 84)

#93 David McKinney

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Posted 07 June 2007 - 11:53

Originally posted by D-Type
surely the Guild of Motoring Writers should make Paul and his team Honorary Members

I'm not sure that the majority of Guild members would have any use for the books

#94 HDonaldCapps

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Posted 07 June 2007 - 13:43

Originally posted by David McKinney
I'm not sure that the majority of Guild members would have any use for the books


That would seem to be quite true for about any of the other various automotive writer's organizations you could name -- on either side of the Atlantic.

Initially, within its admittedly small community, The Black Books, as most here can attest were a revelation. I know that despite years and years of work and frustration I had scarcely scratched the surface. These books were just an amazing resource to suddenly have at hand and the product of obviously much hard work.

It seems unfortunate that this project has never received any formal recognition since it has been the inspiration of no end of folks to dig deeper and continue with was started. The information within the volumes is utterly taken for granted these days, few even give a passing thought to just how difficult such information was to obtain, particularly that in the first several volumes.

Mine have been well-used and several are more than a bit tattered and worn.

I find it ironic that Volume 11 stops at the same point my interest does....

#95 D-Type

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Posted 07 June 2007 - 14:56

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps

I find it ironic that Volume 11 stops at the same point my interest does....

cause and effect? ;)

#96 HDonaldCapps

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Posted 07 June 2007 - 16:06

Originally posted by D-Type
cause and effect? ;)


Simple coincidence....

Perhaps The Clio & Zeitgeist Considered Society for the History of Automobile Racing should award Paul & Betty Sheldon and the others (Duncan and the rest of the contributors) its "Gold Star for Excellence in Research" along with the "Gold Palm for Lasting Contributions to Automobile Racing History" since it seems like that is about the best that can be done at the moment.

#97 ensign14

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Posted 07 June 2007 - 16:27

Originally posted by Doug Nye
I have to say that I think the creation of an owner's club Register is a wonderful accolade for Paul and his missis - who has done a vast percentage of the Real Work - and one that I doubt has ever been afforded any other motoring book title or series.

Given my von Trips-esque mechanical cluelessness, it's probably the only owner's club I will ever end up joining...

#98 BT 35-8

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Posted 08 June 2007 - 09:24

Vol. 1 , no number.
Vol. 2 , 207.
Vol. 3 , 246.
Vol. 4 , 83.
Vol. 5 , no number.
Vol. 6 , no number.
Vol. 7 , 80.
1966 book , no 29.
Vol. 8 , 100 .
Vol. 9 , 152.
Vol. 10 , 325.
Vol. 11 , no number.

Also , The Formula One Record Book , John Thompson.
F1 Register Record Book 1966.
Formula Jnr. 1958-1961 and 1962-1964.
Fact book 1989.
Draft , Tasman fact book.

Bryan Miller.

#99 rateus

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Posted 08 June 2007 - 10:40

Vols 1, 5 & 6, bought direct from St Leonards after seeing an ad in Autosport. I even still have the handwritten notes Betty Sheldon included - apparently I sent them £1 too much for one volume :lol:

Sadly the university gravy train then hit the buffers... :|

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#100 TonyKaye

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Posted 09 June 2007 - 00:40

In common with so many contributors to this thread, Paul Sheldon’s volumes are a core ingredient of my book collection. Since they were published, a number of web sites have become available covering certain formulas or time periods in great depth, nonetheless the Black Books remain the starting point when I need specific information.

If Roger Clark is still out there counting, this is my tally:

Vol 1 -- Not numbered
Vol 2 -- No. 237
Vol 3 -- No. 327
Vol 4 -- No. 241
Vol 5 -- Not numbered
Vol 6 -- Not Numbered
Vol 7 -- No. 241
Vol 8 -- No. 49
Vol 9 -- No. 23
Vol 10 -- No. 80
Addenda

Fact Books
South Africa – incomplete manuscript
1979/81

FJ 1958/61
FJ 1962/64
F3 1947/52
F3 1953/55
F3 1956/62
F3 1964/66
F3 1967/69
F3 1970/72
F3 1973/77
F3 1978/81
F3 1982/85
F3 1986/88

Tasman, F5000 1968/71
F5000 1972/81

As a token of their importance, I have bound each of the flimsy volumes into hard cover versions. They are all on a key shelf along with a few other essential record books. Most important is Gerald Rose’s masterpiece, which is the grandfather of them all. After all these years, it remains the authoritative record of its period. Then there are is Phil Harms’ wonderful web site of American Championship racing, which I have downloaded into three hard cover volumes. (Great stuff, Phil!)

What is missing? Not too much, unless one has a deep interest in the lesser formula like Atlantic and Supervee, both of which are available on the Internet. To my knowledge, racing in Japan and behind the Iron Curtain has never been fully documented in book form. The latter has been discussed in detail in TNF, but it needs to be pulled together in a single book. Maybe this thread would be a suitable place to list the various web sites (like Darren Galpin’s, Phil Harms’ and Leif Snellman’s) which fill many of the gaps.

Top of my wish list would be a detailed book covering racing in the nineteenth century. Rose listed the major races of the time there has been at least one TNF thread devoted to the period, but so far no book with total coverage a la Sheldon.