159 replies to this topic

[Slyder]

Can someone please tell me any details on whatever happened to this Austrian driver in Watkins Glen in 1974?

Anyone care to discuss or bring out any memories of what happened there, if I can?

[Vitesse2]

Well, if you really want to know ...

Koinigg's car ran through three layers of catch fencing and then through a double Armco barrier, between the two levels of Armco. He was killed instantly (I think I read somewhere that he was actually decapitated)

[Slyder]

ugh,


is there any concrete reports on the accident?

[Vitesse2]

I checked the basic details in Mike Lang's Grand Prix 3 - the bit in brackets is purely from memory, but I'm pretty sure I'm right ....

[Jonathan]

Basically under impact the bottom rows of Armco barriers gave way, but the top ones stayed in place.

[jondoe955]

I saw the accident from the opposite end of the boot straight. Nothing unusual - just a cloud of dust in the distance. Word at the track was that his throttle stuck and he punctured the armco. I have read that it was caused by tire failure. But the force of the impact sounds like throttle.
I don't remember them stopping the race (??), but I do remember the ambulance was down there.
I was maybe a quarter mile away and would have walked down there if I would have known how serious it was. Word spread very slowly as I don't think we heard he was dead (and decapitated)until after the race.

[moody]

...I cannot remember the year, but does anyone recall seeing a photo of Clay Regazzoni at the chicane at Monte Carlo, when his F2 Techno went under the armco, Clay actually ducked his head underneath as the car impacted. My memory of this is sketchy, perhaps someone could enlighten me on the incident...

[ghinzani]

Originally posted by moody
...I cannot remember the year, but does anyone recall seeing a photo of Clay Regazzoni at the chicane at Monte Carlo, when his F2 Techno went under the armco, Clay actually ducked his head underneath as the car impacted. My memory of this is sketchy, perhaps someone could enlighten me on the incident...

Yeah it was in a recent Autosport - thats what happened and he obviously avoided decapitation. Dangerous game it used to be!

[Vitesse2]

The Regazzoni incident was at the Monaco F3 race in 1968 - the car slid under the barrier at the chicane after the tunnel and a length of Armco ended up wedged between the back of his neck and the roll-over bar See Motor Sport Dec 2001, p51

[David M. Kane]

Both the Birrell and Bret Hawthorne died in armco accidents that were very
similar to the GP ones described in the various thread running around.
The sport was very slow to take corrective action. When they designed them
no one had imagined that formula cars could slid under them. Now at the Glen, for example, they have big foam blocks that are very effective in keeping cars from getting to the armco with so much velocity.

Its not how I want to die.

[Rediscoveryx]

With the possible exception of Monaco, I can't think of a single modern F1 track that uses armco in the way that it was used back in the 70's, so hopefully these types of accidents will never happen again

[Slyder]

What surprises me is that there is so little that it's known about Koinigg and the details of the crash. The same with many other drivers, very little is known

[David M. Kane]

Try the Research Center at Watkins Glen. They are strictly racing oriented
and they probably have copies of the accident reports in their archives. Membership and access to their website is very reasonable.

[leegle]

Glynn Scott died at Lakeside in 1970 when he went through Armco that had been damaged by a Mustang in a previous race and not repaired properly.

[Ralliart]

Surer's co-driver was Michael Wyder - Hesse Rally of 1986 in the town of Schotten, Germany
Surtees would have nothing to do with the "experimental", if you will, Honda that Schlesser raced and was amazed to see it in the paddock at Rouen, let alone to be raced that day.
I taped the 1985 Spa 1000 when it was shown on ESPN and watched it, again, very recently. Ickx had a camera in his car, took the normal line through Eau Rouge and Bellof tried to pass him there. There's no indication that Ickx was blocking Bellof so I don't know where that came from. The accident was then replayed in slow motion, with Ickx getting out of his Porsche, as he crashed himself, as the smoke from the fire starts seeping into his car. I'm not sure any car on the grid that day would have saved him and I realize the 956 had the driver's legs up front. I believe Bellof was too fast for his own good - he had a massive shunt a year or so before on the Nordschleife in a 956 - and tried a pass in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Surtees has gone on record as being adamatly against armco and couldn't understand why Stewart pushed for their widespread use

[tyrrellp34]

I just know that he was Austrian, (like meee) and supported by Bergmann who was also the Teamboss of Niki Lauda some years before in Formula V.

In Laudas book is mention, that Koinigg had a puncture and than went of at the same place where Cevert crash..

[David M. Kane]

Cevert's crash happened at the beginning of the front straight, Helmut's took place at the end of the boot over 1 and 1/2 miles further the track
three turns away.

[tyrrellp34]

So sorry!

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by tyrrellp34
So sorry!

No need for you to be embarrassed! It's Niki's mistake, if that's what he wrote. Just another in the long list of published errors we've found here!

[DOHC]

In F1 Racing, September 2001, p 86, Max Mosley is interviewed by Damon Hill. While talking about safety, Mosley mentions Koinigg's fatal accident in a comment of his own (Mosley's) racing career:

"I liked the environment but I didn't like the danger. Of the 21 people on the grid at that Hockenheim F2 race I did [that's 7 April, 1968, the race in which Clark was killed], three were dead within three months. When you came up against the reality -- the real reality, like when they pulled the remains of Roger Williams out of his car (Zandvoort, '73), or when that marshal went to pick up Helmuth Koinigg's helmet and his head was still in it (Watkins Glen, '74) -- and you realized that, by applying a modicum of technology, you could avoid most of these things, it seeemed to me completely immoral not to do it."

[Keir]

Having been at the Glen that day. Helmut's accident did occur at the last turn before the pit straight.

The cause of the accident is listed as "driver error" (going too fast on cold tires.)

The Cevert accident happened at the esses, two turns down the track from the pit straight.

Armco, was a well accepted form of protection, but accidents like these changed a lot of minds.

[Leif Snellman]

I once read that because of Cevert's crash there had been rearrangements of the Armco for
1974, making it higher and that was the reason for Koinigg's car going in UNDER the Armco.
I admit I have some doubts about that story.
Can anyone confirm/deny it?

[Doug Nye]

The story as I understood it was missing bolts on the lower Armco rail, secure fixings on the upper Armco rail. So the Surtees's nose impacted the lower rail which promptly folded back allowing the car to run through underneath, the upper rail scything off everything above scuttle level... I mentioned all this to John just the other day. He's still shaken by it all...so unnecessary. He thought of Koinigg as being a very nice lad - and a truly promising driver.

My recollection is different to Keir's, surely the last turn before the Watkins Glen pit straight was a right-hander in plain view from the pits? The accident as I recall it occurred was down in the right-hander at the end of the Anvil section, away from the pits. I'm sure I was at the foot of the slope by the left-hander entering the Anvil section and saw the car go straight on in the distance, at the end of the following straight, into the right-hander there...or is my recollection really scrambled?

DCN

PS - General sentiment was that the essential cause of the incident was a tyre delamination - the cause of the fatality was the barrier failure.

[Keir]

Doug,
I may very well be wrong about the location, I was at a different point of the track, but heard that someone had gone off on the first lap at the begining of the straightaway. The assumption was the pit straight. After the Cevert accident, the track officials decided it was better to keep everyone in the dark about this accident and it's aftermath. Most of the crowd that day learned of Helmut's fate on the way home!! This would be two difficult years for the Glen management, who always strived for the very best racing conditions.

[Leif Snellman]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
The story as I understood it was missing bolts on the lower Armco rail, secure fixings on the upper Armco rail.

Aha! That gives a new dimention to how the drivers must have felt at Montjuich 1975 - half a year later!

[Vitesse2]

And in Stommelen's accident at Montjuich, the Armco was too solid, and too low. His GH1 ran along the top of the barrier and ended up in what should have been a safe area. Three officials and a photographer were killed and a number of spectators injured

[Buford]

All I can add was my friend was there and saw it. He said they put a tarp over the car and left it there until after the race, so everybody who was in the vacinity knew he was dead.

[Henri Greuter]

Austrian journalist Heinz Prüller write his annual Grand Prix story books
In his '74 annual he wrote the following about the accident of his fellow countryman.

The two lower guardrails had opened af if they were curtains.

About how Koinigg could crash in the first place:
Pruller was with the team during the night after the accident when the car was inspected. The gear lever was in furth gear though that could have been done by a marchal in the aftermath.
The left rear tire however was damaged in a manner that could not be explained by the accident.

For all security I want to say this: It reads as if Pruller stated all this as an observation of what he saw, he did not make any accusation to whom or what was to blame onin the car that made it crash.
Neither do I accuse anything or anybody.


Henri Greuter

[Ralliart]

First I'd like to apologize for my earlier contribution to this thread - it belonged in another - guess I was half asleep.
In Surtees' autobiography (which I have but can't get to at this moment to quote), he talks about why he was not in favor of Armco and felt there were better/safer ways to stop an errant car. Maybe someone out there has a copy. Also there was an article in Motor Sport about Armco fairly recently and it might've gone into when and why it was introduced. Terribly sad thing that happened to Helmut Koinigg.

[Doug Nye]

Originally posted by Henri Greuter
For all security I want to say this: It reads as if Pruller stated all this as an observation of what he saw, he did not make any accusation to whom or what was to blame onin the car that made it crash.
Neither do I accuse anything or anybody.Henri Greuter

Henri??? What's this paragraph about????

DCN

[Henri Greuter]

Hi Doug,

I state this because on one occasion I answered a question someone had by quotingciting from a book. But I read it in a Dutch book and my English translation obviously wasn't perfect and I was then accused of making accusations about the affair instead of just trying to help someone out with an answer. And in other threads I have been very firm in venting my opinions. Too ferm perhaps.

I just put quote in because I wanted to make clear that, as I read Pruller's comments, he wasn't making any accusations about the car Koinigg drove one way or another. Pruller only stated that the tire damage they saw could not be explained properly by the accident that befell Koinigg.
And I only tried to reproduce what Pruller wrote and how he described it. In my opinion, Pruller didn't accuse anybody, and that is what I tried make clear.
And that I put it down could be interpretated as if I claim that it happened because of a tire failure.
Which I'm not. I only reproduced what somebody else has seen and published. And how he has published it.

Hope this helps to explain what I meant?

Greetings,

Henri Greuter

[ghinzani]

Henri

sounds like your free to go then ;-) I vote "not guilty"!!

[Henri Greuter]

I think it's about time for me to regret that I replied on this thread at least at the manner I did.

My apologies to everyone who felt I went too far for whatever reasons because that was definitely not the intention.



Henri

-----------------------------------------------------------------
" Cause I'm just a soul who'se intentions are good
Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood."

[ghinzani]

Originally posted by Henri Greuter
I think it's about time for me to regret that I replied on this thread at least at the manner I did.

My apologies to everyone who felt I went too far for whatever reasons because that was definitely not the intention.



Henri

-----------------------------------------------------------------
" Cause I'm just a soul who'se intentions are good
Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood."

Henri, I cant see anything bad in what you said, Im sure all of us who speak english as their mother tongue can get the gist of what you are saying - I would imagine the chances of us being taken out of context in your native language were we to reply in it would be far greater! Keep on posting, your Pruller comments are most welcome as they are from a man who would have had the sort of access and insight we crave.

keep up the good work!

ps I get taken out of context in my own language reguarly :-)

[Doug Nye]

No need to apologise for ANYTHING here Henri. What you wrote kind of suggested that you were in mortal fear of becoming the victim of litigation from person or corporate body unknown. That's what intrigued me...and that is why I asked what this was all about...

DCN

[Bladrian]

The number of decapitations I'm reading about here disturbs me. A friend of mine (Mike Kort) was marshalling at Crowthorne (at Kyalami) when Peter Revson went off at Barbecue; his Shadow went under the armco on the outside of the bend (Barbecue was a pretty fast downhill righthander, and the runoff area was slicker than owlshit). Peter's head was crushed between the armco and the car.
Three years later I was in the pits, again at Kyalami, and I happened to be looking right at Renzo Zorzi's (sp?) car when Tom Pryce collected a fire marshall (again a friend of mine - Jansen van Rensburg) next to it and his head was crushed. My mate was also killed.
Those were just two fatal head injuries, amongst what now, to me, appears to be a rash of them at the time. I wonder if better headgear would have helped these poor chaps? Or can fate not be appeased so easily?
A question, therefore - any stories where good headgear actually saved a race driver's life?

[Buford]

Actually the helmets then were pretty good. No real difference in crash protection from now. Today's helmets are lighter though. There must be hundreds of helmets saving lives stories. The most recent I saw was a couple weeks ago when Tony George's stepson, Ed Carpenter was saved in a Sprint Car flip when his head hit the wall and he walked away, very pissed off, but unhurt.

[DOHC]

Originally posted by Bladrian
A question, therefore - any stories where good headgear actually saved a race driver's life?

I have no expertise, but doesn't it happen all the time? In F1, how about Luciano Burti's crash at Blanchimont, Spa, last year? He "only" got a concussion. With the old fashioned headgear my guess is that his crash would have been more serious.

[Slyder]

I don't remember what year but Johnny Rutherford suffered a huge crash at Phoenix when his Chaparral smacked the wall with the rear-end and one of the rear wheels got into the car which made it sommersault and land upside down. The roll-bar was crushed, but Rutherford escaped with only a shaking, but a BIG dent was shown in his helmet.

That crash would've been fatal but his helmet took the bang to save him.

[John Fransson]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
The Regazzoni incident was at the Monaco F3 race in 1968 - the car slid under the barrier at the chicane after the tunnel and a length of Armco ended up wedged between the back of his neck and the roll-over bar See Motor Sport Dec 2001, p51

in an article I have abour Peterson, it was 1969.

The car was totalled up until the engine, which was in one piece.
Since Clay also drove F2 for Tecno, he flew away from Monaco to drive an F2 race somewhere else, and Ronnies team was allowed to take whatever they wanted from Clays wreck.

This was useful since Ronnie had blown an engine during practice.

- John

[William Hunt]

At the end of 1974 a young Austrian made his debut in F1 : Helmut Koinigg.

Koinigg had his first shot for Finotto, they ran a private Brabham for him in Zeltweg but he couldn't qualify. But he was back for the last two races in Mosport and Watkins Glen. He got a chance from John Surtees in the car that was previously occupied by Jochen Mass. Jean-Pierre Jabouille and José Dolhem had also driven that car when Mass left.

Koinigg did extremely well on his debut, placing his car on the 22nd. position on the grid, ahead of his teammate Derek Bell who was back in 27th and wasn't qualified. Koinigg was a complete second faster than the more experienced Bell ! He finished in a solid 10th position. Clearly Surtees had made a strong choice. At Watkins Glen Bell was replaced by Frenchman José Dolhem. Again Koinigg beat his teammate, he ended up 23rd on the grid. Dolhem also qualified, but in 26th and a second behind Koinigg. However in the 10th lap tragedy struck, in a fast corner the Surtees went straight ahead demolishing the guardrail. Helmut died immediately.... only one month before his 27th birthday.

I'm pretty sure that had the accident never happened, Koinigg could have been a star in Formula 1. He ended up 2nd in the European Formula V championship in 1972 and won that title in '73. In '74 he was integrated in the Le Mans team of Martini Racing for his 3rd participation in the French classic, he was a very good sportscar and touring car driver as well. But how good was Helmut Koinigg ? And was he already talking to other teams at the end of '74, after his promissing race in Mosport, or would he stay at Surtees ? How should we rate this guy ?

[ghinzani]

Helmut Marko rated him highly, as did Ian Phillips when he wrote his obit for Autosport. The Austrians had a hard time really, what with Rindt, Konigg and Hans-George Burger (was that his name?) all dying before they (arguably in Rindts case) reached their prime. However on the upside they did have Lauda. Konnig looked good in 74 in the works Porsche carrera as well.

[Rob G]

Originally posted by ghinzani
The Austrians had a hard time really, what with Rindt, Konigg and Hans-George Burger (was that his name?) all dying before they (arguably in Rindts case) reached their prime.

Add to that Marko's career-ending eye injury, Jo Gartner's death, and the near-fatal injuries to Lauda and Karl Wendlinger, and it does seem as if they have suffered much more than their fair share of tragedy and near-tragedy.

[William Hunt]

They still have Alexander Wurz. And Patrick Friesacher and Bernhard Auinger are also excellent drivers that could do well in F1.

[Ralliart]

I think Dieter Quester, who I believe still races, would have some good stories to tell, as well, and has had his share of moments in a long and excellent career.

[AndreasF1]

Dont forget Markus Hoettinger, who was a very succesfull F2 racer and would have made it to F1. He died I believe on the Oesterreichring.

[cheesy poofs]

Hoettinger lost his life at Hockeheim.

[fines]

... and Hans-Georg Bürger is as much of an Austrian as I am - he was from Welschbillig, which is just about 10 miles going south from here and, like 23 years ago, still part of the Eifel, Germany!

[ghinzani]

Andreas,Cheesypoofs and Fines - apologies , I meant Hottinger, very hard to seperate in my mind as their deaths occured so close together. Probably because I was mixing my Burgers with my Bergers... at the end of the day they are all "towns folk" to me.
Obviously I should have also added poor Jo Gartner. I wonder what his girlfriend who ran the f2 team did after he passed away, I wonder if she stayed involved in racing? Think she was called Doris IIRC. Of course Jo's friend and team-mate Pierre Chauvet/Umberto Calvet et al was to die at the wheel of a race car at Most a couple of nyears back.

[Prostfan]

Add Rupert Hollaus to the list of Austrians who died too young.