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Ecclestone & the Monaco 1958 non-qualifiers


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#1 Barry Boor

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Posted 17 June 2004 - 22:05

Can anyone supply the times of the LARGE number of cars that failed to qualify for the 1958 Monaco Grand Prix, please?

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#2 Vitesse2

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Posted 17 June 2004 - 22:26

Godia 1'46.0"
Kessler 1'50.5"
Emery 1'50.4"
Flockhart 1'45.9" (in Walker's Cooper T43 #22 - no time in the BRM #10)
Gould 1'54.0"
de Filippis 1'50.8"
Gerini 1'49.8"
Kavanagh 1'49.0"
Cabianca 1'52.0"
Piotti 1'52.4"
Testut 1'51.4"

Ecclestone 6 minutes plus!

#3 bretonbanquet

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Posted 17 June 2004 - 22:36

Does anyone know what Bernie was actually doing in this instance? It clearly wasn't a serious attempt, but did he only complete one slow lap in his Connaught, or what? :confused:

#4 David McKinney

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Posted 18 June 2004 - 05:02

And, more to the point perhaps, can anyone confirm that he was an official entry?

#5 Barry Boor

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Posted 18 June 2004 - 05:58

According to the L.A.T. Photographic image of Paul Emery in his Connaught, Mr. Ecclestone was the entrant of the Connaughts.

Maybe it was simply that he felt that gave him the right to 'have a go'. Remember, things were much more easy-going back then....

#6 David McKinney

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Posted 18 June 2004 - 06:20

My point exactly - a number of people (engineers, mechanics, friends) did a lap or two in practice in those days. I don't believe they should be included in the dreaded statistics. Which is why I'm interested to know whether Ecclestone was officially entered, or just "had a go" for fun

The list of non-qualfiers published in The Motor (21/5/58) is slightly different from Vitesse's
I reproduce it here, with “Black Book” times in brackets
Flockhart 1m 45.9s
Godia 1m 46.0s
Emery 1m 47.7s (1m 50.8s)
Taramazzo 1m 49.0s (no time)
(Kavanagh 1m 49.0s)
de Filippis 1m 49.8s (1m 50.8s)
Gerini 1m 49.8s
Kessler 1m 50.5s
Testut 1m 51.4s
Cabianca 1m 52.0s
Piotti 1m 52.4s
Gould 1m 54.0s
Campbell DNS (DNA)
(Chiron)
(Halford)
no mention of Ecclestone (6min plus)

Kavanagh and Taramazzo shared the same car, so either could have done the time

#7 Rob29

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Posted 18 June 2004 - 07:30

Bernie was in fact the owner of 2 Connaghts having bought them at the auction the previous year.

#8 Hugo Boecker

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Posted 18 June 2004 - 07:36

Originally posted by David McKinney
My point exactly - a number of people (engineers, mechanics, friends) did a lap or two in practice in those days. I don't believe they should be included in the dreaded statistics. Which is why I'm interested to know whether Ecclestone was officially entered, or just "had a go" for fun


Remember who did the fifth fastest practice lap at Reims ? -- and crashed the car! A case of denigner/engeneerer driver his own car but not a car with his name or lable.

so long

#9 Hugo Boecker

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Posted 18 June 2004 - 07:39

Originally posted by Hugo Boecker


denigner/engeneerer



oooohhhhhh tooo early

designer/engineer

#10 ensign14

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Posted 18 June 2004 - 09:30

Originally posted by Hugo Boecker


Remember who did the fifth fastest practice lap at Reims ? -- and crashed the car!

The 5th fastest time was actually set by his team-mate driving his car...

#11 Alexey Rogachev

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Posted 18 June 2004 - 12:27

Originally posted by David McKinney
Campbell DNS (DNA)


Campbell??? :drunk: Not Donald Campbell, of course? :confused:

#12 Vitesse2

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Posted 18 June 2004 - 13:08

Originally posted by Alexey Rogachev


Campbell??? :drunk: Not Donald Campbell, of course? :confused:

No. Keith Campbell. Australian motorcycle racer who bought a 250F in early 1958. Ran in a couple of non-champ F1 races without much success (9th in the Glover Trophy, DNF in the BARC 200) - died at Cadours in a bike accident.

#13 Alexey Rogachev

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Posted 18 June 2004 - 13:29

Thanks :up: Really I've never heard of any circuit race in which Donald Campbell took part, so I was amazed seeing 'Campbell' in the list of the non-qualifiers. But perhaps D. Campbell however raced any other car than his record 'Bluebirds'...

#14 Hugo Boecker

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Posted 18 June 2004 - 16:08

Originally posted by ensign14
The 5th fastest time was actually set by his team-mate driving his car...


Sheldon's times were
car No 22 2'26,1"
car No 24 2'27,0"
car No 26 2'26,8"

Who did which time ? What was the common grid-qualy/position rule (place by car or driver)

Did you know who was also consdered for the third car?

so long

#15 anjakub

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Posted 18 June 2004 - 16:29

The list of non-qualifiers published in French sports paper l’Equipe :

#4 Godia 1m 46.0s
#22 Flockhart 1m 46.2s
#44 de Filippis 1m 48.8s
#50 Taramazzo 1m 49.0s
#48 Gerini no time
#56 Chiron 1m 49,8s
#14 Kessler 1m50.5s
#12 Emery 1m 50.8s
#56 Testut 1m 51.4s
#52 Cabianca 1m 52.0s
#54 Piotti 1m 52.4s
#42 Gould 1m54.0s

#16 David McKinney

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Posted 18 June 2004 - 18:36

That makes it more confusing, not less :lol:
[I}Motor Sport[/I] didn't publish a list of non-qualifiers but did mention in the text of their report that de Filippis had done 1m 48.8s, so maybe that's right.
Wonder if we'll ever know...

#17 David McKinney

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Posted 18 June 2004 - 18:41

That makes it more confusing, not less :lol:
[IMotor Sport[/I] didn't publish a list of non-qualifiers but did mention in the text of their report that de Filippis had done 1m 48.8s, so maybe that's right.
Wonder if we'll ever know...

#18 ensign14

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Posted 18 June 2004 - 18:51

That makes it more confusing, not less
Motor Sport didn't publish a list of non-qualifiers but did mention in the text of their report that de Filippis had done 1m 48.8s, so maybe that's right.
Wonder if we'll ever know...

:p

#19 David Beard

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Posted 20 June 2004 - 15:05

Errr.....what was the criteria for qualifying in 1958 and 1959?

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#20 marat

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Posted 20 June 2004 - 15:29

Criteria was: the 16 best practice time were allowed to race.

#21 D-Type

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Posted 20 June 2004 - 22:38

Curioser and curioser.

In his 1964 history of the race David Hodges says

At the other end of the scale, Maria-Theresa de Felippis' time (1 min 49.8 sec) would have put her on the fifth row of the grid ...


But 1m 49.8s would not have done so as the slowest car on the 1957 fifth row was Stuart Lewis-Evans Connaught at 1m 49.1s. So if Hodges's contention is correct, her time must have been 1m 48.8s as reported by Motor Sport. Or perhaps Hodges got the time from Motor Sport and is compounding their error.

marat,
Although there was clearly no need to apply it in 1957-58, did the rule of automatic qualification for previous winners apply then?

#22 marat

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Posted 21 June 2004 - 21:54

I found only evidence for the rule qualifying former winners in 1961 and 1963.

#23 GIGLEUX

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Posted 21 June 2004 - 23:13

Number of starters:
-1950 no limitation
-1955 best 20
-1956 to 1960 best 16
-1961 16 cars to start; 2 for each following team: Ferrari Cooper Lotus BRM Porsche + Moss and Trintignant as ex-winners.
-1962: 16 cars to start 2 for the following team: Porsche BRM Cooper Lotus Ferrari so six places to qualification.
-1963: 16 cars to start 5 drivers on invitation: World champions G.Hill, P.Hill, J.Brabham and ex winners M.Trintignant and B.McLaren.
-1964: best 16.
-1965: 16 cars to start qualifications following 1964 season drivers classifications.
-1966: best 16.

#24 gbl

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Posted 22 August 2004 - 11:01

This is totally new to me :eek:

http://www.f1total.c...tails.php?d=210

#25 Gary C

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Posted 22 August 2004 - 11:10

not to us though !!!

#26 Lukin

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Posted 22 August 2004 - 11:19

I cant read the article due to the langauge barrier but as far as I can recall, Bernie owned a team at the time and frustrated that his drivers couldnt qualify the cars he decided to jump in and give it a show. He failed too, but earnt a little respect I guess.

#27 GIGLEUX

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Posted 22 August 2004 - 11:58

Have a look here: http://forums.atlasf...&threadid=70320

#28 GIGLEUX

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Posted 22 August 2004 - 12:07

And he was also alternative driver in the Connaught B7 he entered for the 1958 British GP. He quietly did some practise laps, best reported time: 2.38.4.; the regular driver of the car, Jack Fairman turned in 1.58.8.

#29 gbl

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Posted 22 August 2004 - 16:07

Thanks for the info, I always thought that he was a pure business man / team owner, he doesn't even look like a race car driver :lol:

#30 David McKinney

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Posted 22 August 2004 - 17:29

Oh he was a racing-driver all right - a regular competitor in F3 races at Brands Hatch in the early 1950s and by no means an unsuccessful one

#31 Eric McLoughlin

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Posted 22 August 2004 - 17:42

There's a nice painting by Michael Turner featured in the artists 2004 calender of Bernie leading in his 500cc Cooper at Brands in the 1950s.

#32 Kuwashima

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Posted 22 August 2004 - 17:48

Along with Michael Andretti, Bernie is the most submitted name to F1 Rejects...

#33 AAA-Eagle

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Posted 22 August 2004 - 18:40

Originally posted by David McKinney
Oh he was a racing-driver all right - a regular competitor in F3 races at Brands Hatch in the early 1950s and by no means an unsuccessful one

Yes he became the champion in 500cc class (FJ) among the juniors on the 13th of April, 1951.

#34 LB

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Posted 22 August 2004 - 19:52

Originally posted by Kuwashima
Along with Michael Andretti, Bernie is the most submitted name to F1 Rejects...

I thought Michael Andretti didn't qualify for it as he podiumed... guess Andretti bashers just can't read :p

#35 D-Type

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Posted 22 August 2004 - 20:25

Originally posted by AAA-Eagle

Yes he became the champion in 500cc class (FJ) among the juniors on the 13th of April, 1951.

In 1951 it was Formula 3 not Formula Junior.

April sounds early for finishing a championship. Was it possibly a race that called itself "500cc Championship"?

#36 Roger Clark

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Posted 22 August 2004 - 21:02

Originally posted by D-Type

In 1951 it was Formula 3 not Formula Junior.

April sounds early for finishing a championship. Was it possibly a race that called itself "500cc Championship"?

The 13th was a Friday. i think the meeting being referred to eas on the 8th. It consisted of an Open Challenge Race in three 7-lap heats and a 15-lap final, the Brands Hatch Championship and the Junior Brands Hatch Championship. Ecclestone won the last of these, which was open to members of the Half-Litre Club who had been unplaced in a 500cc race.

#37 David McKinney

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Posted 22 August 2004 - 21:16

That was pretty much the standard format for Brands meetings at that time, IIRC

#38 Geoff E

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Posted 22 August 2004 - 22:31

Originally posted by LB

podiumed


Is this breaking new ground for TNF I wonder? :D

#39 Don Capps

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Posted 22 August 2004 - 22:45

...podiumed...


Is this breaking new ground for TNF I wonder? :D


Only among the tykes here since that term is not -- nor will it ever be, in my racing dictionary.....

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#40 Geoff E

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Posted 22 August 2004 - 23:14

Originally posted by Geoff E


Is this breaking new ground for TNF I wonder? :D


I summoned up the enthusiasm to do a search :rolleyes: In fact, this is the 22nd thread on Atlas to use the "word" but it's the first time this particular combination of letters has been used on TNF. :eek:

#41 Vitesse2

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Posted 23 August 2004 - 13:21

Originally posted by soubriquet


But not the Scousers or the Geordies?

Tykes of the world Unite!

Eh oop, lad! Tha's gonna totally confuse those boogers 'cross t'Pond if tha ga's on aboot that .... :p

Short explanation for the terminally confused:

Tyke - inhabitant of Yorkshire.
Scouser - inhabitant of the city of Liverpool or its environs.
Geordie - inhabitant of the city of Newcastle-upon-Tyne or its environs.

My first comment should of course be read in a Yorkshire accent ..... :cool:

And I doubt the OED will ever adopt "podium" as a verb!

#42 ian senior

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Posted 23 August 2004 - 15:17

Originally posted by Vitesse2

Eh oop, lad! Tha's gonna totally confuse those boogers 'cross t'Pond if tha ga's on aboot that .... :p

Short explanation for the terminally confused:

Tyke - inhabitant of Yorkshire.
Scouser - inhabitant of the city of Liverpool or its environs.
Geordie - inhabitant of the city of Newcastle-upon-Tyne or its environs.

My first comment should of course be read in a Yorkshire accent ..... :cool:

And I doubt the OED will ever adopt "podium" as a verb!


I don't think you'd find any Yorkshireman who would willingly refer to himself as a "tyke" - unless he's a Barnsley supporter. It's just a word used to describe us by soft southerners who don't know what they are talking about. On t'other 'and, Scousers and Geordies don't seem to mind being so-called.

#43 Vitesse2

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Posted 23 August 2004 - 15:53

Just Barnsley? Nay, lad .....

And I'm no soft southerner either :p

#44 ensign14

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Posted 23 August 2004 - 15:58

Hampstead worn't good enough for yer, worrit? You 'ad to go poncing off to Barnsley.

#45 D-Type

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Posted 23 August 2004 - 16:43

So, are we all agreed that Mr Ecclestone was a moderately successful Formula 3 driver but was never a Grand Prix driver?

#46 Don Capps

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Posted 23 August 2004 - 16:43

Until the next time this pops up......

#47 Alan Lewis

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Posted 23 August 2004 - 19:42

Originally posted by ian senior
...and Geordies don't seem to mind being so-called.


Well, you have to be careful (I learned very quickly when I moved up here). Geordies are - as stated - from Newcastle and the surrounding area, but it has to be NORTH of the Tyne. Denizens of Sunderland are Mackems, citizens of South Shields (like, for example, Sir Francis Owen Garbutt Williams) are proud to call themselves Sand Dancers.

And then there's Hartlepool and the monkeys...

APL

#48 GIGLEUX

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Posted 24 August 2004 - 00:06

Well, Don, Soubriquet, Geoff E, Richard and all others, is it full moon time?

#49 Vitesse2

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Posted 24 August 2004 - 00:29

Originally posted by ensign14
Hampstead worn't good enough for yer, worrit? You 'ad to go poncing off to Barnsley.

:cool:

Well I recognised it, even if no-one else did .....

Jean-Maurice - it's August. Here, we call it the "silly season". You French just go "en vacances" ....

#50 Milan Fistonic

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Posted 24 August 2004 - 02:44

One of our TV commentators at the Olympics referred to a competitor as having "medalled in this event previously"

And he meant "he won a medal in this event" not "he messed about in this event".