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Alfa Romeo TZ1 histories


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#1 Doug Nye

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Posted 18 June 2004 - 19:07

Tricky area - does anybody here have a reasonable grasp on how many TZ1 cars were really built, which went where, etc??? They have long interested me but I have never found the time to get into them properly.

DCN

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#2 dretceterini

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Posted 18 June 2004 - 19:11

Doug:

This looks pretty accurate to me (without thorough checking), and covers the TZ1 and TZ 2s..

http://www.zagato-ca...n-us/pg_83.html

#3 Doug Nye

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Posted 18 June 2004 - 19:34

:blush: .... thanks Stu, as is sometimes the way with these things I have just found what I wanted to know buried in an old file here.... too quick to give up and ask TNF...

DCN

#4 dretceterini

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Posted 18 June 2004 - 23:05

I'm sure if I spent a month or two sorting out piles of stuff, I could find things I have been looking for too :

#5 Don Capps

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Posted 18 June 2004 - 23:10

I was under the mistaken assumption there were the TZ and TZ2 cars -- or did I miss something as usual?

#6 dretceterini

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Posted 18 June 2004 - 23:49

Don:

You didn't miss anything, but many call the TZ the TZ 1, even though it isn't technically correct.

#7 Doug Nye

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Posted 19 June 2004 - 07:59

Originally posted by dretceterini
Don: ....even though it isn't technically correct.


Yep - that's me :blush: - might we describe it as 'retrospective nomenclature'??? If you say 'TZ' the usual reflex question is "a 1 or a 2?"...

#8 Don Capps

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Posted 19 June 2004 - 14:09

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Yep - that's me :blush: - might we describe it as 'retrospective nomenclature'??? If you say 'TZ' the usual reflex question is "a 1 or a 2?"...


I was politely but firmly corrected by some true Alfa purists when I asked that very same sort of question some time ago.

"....TZ or TZ2?"




#9 Patrick Italiano

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Posted 21 June 2004 - 13:26

What I can say is that anyone interested in the real history of TZs should NOT rely on Philippe Olczyk's book...

Now, I would describe myself as a quite purist Alfist, but I rather use an apocryphal designation, such as "TZ1", than keep my interlocutor in a deep doubt about what car I'm telling...

Now the story goes that some TZs were possibly in later stage turned into TZ2s, but I never came across one, while there are at least 23 fake cars compared to a maximum of 105-110 real cars ever built. Nice ratio, isn't it?

#10 dretceterini

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Posted 21 June 2004 - 17:19

Originally posted by Patrick Italiano
What I can say is that anyone interested in the real history of TZs should NOT rely on Philippe Olczyk's book...


I would agree, but at the moment, outside of personally researching each car yourself, it is the best we have.

TZs are kind of like Ferrari Daytona convertables.....of the 73 built, 250 exist....

If I had the money to buy a TZ (and I don't), I would spend a lot of time seaching the history of the particular vehicle I was considering...and would want a LOT of documentation from the owner.

#11 Patrick Italiano

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Posted 21 June 2004 - 17:22

Originally posted by dretceterini

I would agree, but at the moment, outside of personally researching each car yourself, it is the best we have.


Or ask knowledgeable and reliable people. There are some even in the Alfa world. :rolleyes:

#12 dretceterini

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Posted 21 June 2004 - 18:13

Originally posted by Patrick Italiano
There are some even in the Alfa world.


and yes...Patrick is one of them :)

......But the key is "some". It seems to me they are few and far between, and it is getting more and more that way. Many of the people who I considered reliable and trustworthy have passed away. Many of the dealers who have TZs for sale are simply delears, and not Alfa people. Quite frankly, at this point, I don't think there is a single dealer in the world that I would trust, and I would do the research myself.

#13 RAP

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Posted 21 June 2004 - 19:19

I am reserching cars that raced at Crystal Palace. In 1965 Walker-Day Racing ran two TZs in the UK. Classicscars.com identifies 073 as the one in which Hegbourne was killed at Spa but does not give the other except it could be 053 as that says "Walker". However, as I understand this information is linked to the Olczyk book whose accuracy others have doubted, I guess this is all suspect. Are any of the Alfa experts able to help me with these two cars?
Thanks
RAP

#14 dretceterini

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Posted 21 June 2004 - 21:19

Elvira Ruocco at the Alfa archives should be able to give you the original owner of every car.


elvira.ruocco@fiat.com

#15 Pedro 917

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Posted 21 June 2004 - 22:11

For the Alfanatics : 2 pictures I took at the Spa Historic 6 Hours event in 2003 :

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#16 xkssFrankOpalka

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Posted 22 June 2004 - 04:38

I remember a TZ1 in a repair garage in the north suburbs of Chicago sitting with no engine, belonged to Harry Theodocropolis I think, could have been had for $2500. This was some yrs ago.

#17 Patrick Italiano

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Posted 22 June 2004 - 11:25

Originally posted by RAP
I am reserching cars that raced at Crystal Palace. In 1965 Walker-Day Racing ran two TZs in the UK. Classicscars.com identifies 073 as the one in which Hegbourne was killed at Spa but does not give the other except it could be 053 as that says "Walker". However, as I understand this information is linked to the Olczyk book whose accuracy others have doubted, I guess this is all suspect. Are any of the Alfa experts able to help me with these two cars?
Thanks
RAP


My data say that the two Walker - Day racing TZs were:

750073 rosso/nero
26.3.65 London, GB Alfa Romeo Ltd.
“ex Walker Day Racing Team”
#53 Pittard 500 km Spa 65, 1st GT 1600

and

750044 celeste/nero
3.3.65 Lugano, CH Alfa Romeo
Racing car, Sant'Ambroeus or Autodelta
GB Walker – Day Racing Team
1965 accident at 500 km Spa 1965 by Hegbourne (killed at Blanchimont)

But with this one, I have the remark : "Some doubt has been expressed as to whether this was 750043 or 750044?"

Indeed, the first owner ot 75043 is "Alfa Romeo Ltd. London", and that seems to fit better Walker - Day way to buy the car when new rather than a Sant'Ambroeus racing car sold through the Swiss importer. But the sources for the two infos (Sant'ambroeus or Walker-Day) are different. Now I have a colour pic of the two cars at Francorchamps, unfortunately not at hand. I would like to check Hegbourne's car colour.

However, there is an highly doubtful "75043" in existence now...

The man who should know that for sure is Jon Dooley.

You guessed well: Olczyk and classicscars.com are one and the same.

Stu, please don't turn every question to Elvira. She's busy enough, you know.... ;) And the first owners of the TZs are no mistery: they have been publicated.

Pedro: nice picture. At first sight, the Red/white one is Angelo Chiapparini's racing car , should be 75056. The other pic offers no clue to me, since I missed the event.

#18 richardspringett

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Posted 22 June 2004 - 13:14

Hi everyone,

What a surprise to see TZ's warranting their own thread.

As a custodian of TZ1 chassis #10 since 1989 I have for a long time tried to sort out the race histories of individual cars. Not very successfully.

One of the original sources for TZ histories (excluding Minerbi) must be the Directory of Owners produced by George Pezold. My edition dates from October 94 but there may be more recent. The confusion over the Walker Day cars is highlighted. Peter Crutch, who sadly died not so long ago, confirmed that #43 was the Walker Day car. I will be pleased to provide copies of my list to genuine enquiries if no longer available.

Another more recent Register has been compiled by Koobs de Hartog. Pezold seems to have relied on word of mouth but Hartog states his sources.

My interest is how to match chassis number to race results? I look in envy when Porsche Abarth's have meticulously matched chassis numbers to results. Hows it done? My TZ was delivered on 22 April 64 through Alfa Romeo Lugano and then ..... There is strong circumstantial evidence that the first owner was Silvio Moser with which he won his class in the Coppa Europa at Monza. There is then a trail to Karl Froitek and others, but no conclusive proof. Where do I start?

Finally, may I declare a previous unintended mention in your columns? I am the perfidious 'Japanese collecter' who bought Australia's most famous race car (the '65/'65 Sandown winning Alfa Romeo - 1973 Hang Ten 400 thread). I am pleased to say I use the car as daily transport it runs well and will be maintained in it's magnificent original condition. If any TNFers are in this part of the world they are more than welcome to come and see it - though the wine will be Italian.

Enough... Richard Springett

#19 Patrick Italiano

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Posted 22 June 2004 - 14:57

Richard,

I hardly imagine anyone starting a TZ register without using the previous versions, when available.

Pezold's 1994 version is the last one, as far as I know, and I worked with Jack to update it at the best of our knowledge. We don't spread it, leave question marks where we don't know, and we credit our sources at our best. I think that's the way such things should be handled in this world.

But I know that other knowledgeable people made similar attempts. It would be interesting to cross-check everyone's effort. Hopefully, it should be done one day, when we find time for that.

Unfortunately, I have added nothing to Jack's entry about your car 750010, so I'm sorry I can't help further.

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#20 dretceterini

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Posted 22 June 2004 - 16:37

Patrick:

I agree that every question should not be refered to Elvira, but as far as I'm aware, she is the person one has to go though to gain access to whatever is in the archives. I was not trying to make more work for her.

I was unaware that there is actually a "legitimate" TZ register.....I have only seen bits and pieces of various attempts.

The problem with many registers is that someone gets started, and gives up. Cars get bought and sold any number of times during the period that the register is inactive, and as you are aware, tracing cars "backwards" is a massive effort.

I have worked mainly on the 6c2500, 1900, 750, 101, 102 and 016 models with others, and realize what a monumential task an accurate register is.

Thanks for your efforts...

Stu

#21 RAP

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Posted 22 June 2004 - 18:01

Thank you everyone for your informative replies. On dretceterini's suggestion I have e mailed Elvira Ruocco. I will post any reply.
RAP

#22 Ray Bell

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Posted 23 June 2004 - 01:44

Max Brunninghausen hasn't been mentioned yet, so I guess I'll have to be the name-dropper...

#23 Marcov

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Posted 23 June 2004 - 15:16

Originally posted by richardspringett
Hi everyone,

What a surprise to see TZ's warranting their own thread.

As a custodian of TZ1 chassis #10 since 1989 I have for a long time tried to sort out the race histories of individual cars. Not very successfully.


Don't speak me about Alfa Romeo TZ!! My father bought a second-hand one - a TZ1 - in the second part of the '60s together with his brother (my uncle). This last raced it in Italy (hillclimbs) until 1973. Then they sold it for VERY few money. Neither my father neither my uncle have memory of the chassis number, so it would be very hard to start a research for discovering where this car actually is (and first of all if it still exists). Double pity! To have no longer such a car in our hands and to not know its destiny...

#24 Paul Newby

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Posted 25 June 2004 - 14:45

Originally posted by richardspringett
Hi everyone,

What a surprise to see TZ's warranting their own thread.

As a custodian of TZ1 chassis #10 since 1989 I have for a long time tried to sort out the race histories of individual cars. Not very successfully.

One of the original sources for TZ histories (excluding Minerbi) must be the Directory of Owners produced by George Pezold. My edition dates from October 94 but there may be more recent. The confusion over the Walker Day cars is highlighted. Peter Crutch, who sadly died not so long ago, confirmed that #43 was the Walker Day car. I will be pleased to provide copies of my list to genuine enquiries if no longer available.

Another more recent Register has been compiled by Koobs de Hartog. Pezold seems to have relied on word of mouth but Hartog states his sources.

My interest is how to match chassis number to race results? I look in envy when Porsche Abarth's have meticulously matched chassis numbers to results. Hows it done? My TZ was delivered on 22 April 64 through Alfa Romeo Lugano and then ..... There is strong circumstantial evidence that the first owner was Silvio Moser with which he won his class in the Coppa Europa at Monza. There is then a trail to Karl Froitek and others, but no conclusive proof. Where do I start?

Finally, may I declare a previous unintended mention in your columns? I am the perfidious 'Japanese collecter' who bought Australia's most famous race car (the '65/'65 Sandown winning Alfa Romeo - 1973 Hang Ten 400 thread). I am pleased to say I use the car as daily transport it runs well and will be maintained in it's magnificent original condition. If any TNFers are in this part of the world they are more than welcome to come and see it - though the wine will be Italian.

Enough... Richard Springett


Mmm, that was my post about the ex-Mildren Giulia Ti Super! :wave:

I met the previous owner John Emery early this year and he said there are still some club members who are cut up with him and won't talk to him over selling the Ti Super overseas!

I can see their point. We have been losing a lot of big dollar classic racers to overseas with our weak Australian peso and the lack of prestige events to run some of these cars. The Ti Super was easily the most recognised racing history of any post-war Alfa in Australia. Winning the Sandown 6 Hour outright in 64 and 65 is hugely significant in a country where touring car racing reigns supreme.

While I commend you for driving and cherishing the Ti Super, surely you can't be using it as a daily driver. :eek: It's a race car (and one that has to my knowledge never been crashed.)

And I take it that the car isn't in Japan? :confused:

#25 Jack KdH

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Posted 26 June 2004 - 12:13

Hi Guys,

:blush: For I saw that Patrick Italiano (he is much more an Alfanatic than I am) mentioned my name in relation to the TZ register, please feel free to ask me. It would be a pleasure to me to be of any help :wave:

Ciao,
Jack

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#26 eldougo

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Posted 26 June 2004 - 22:49

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Max Brunninghausen hasn't been mentioned yet, so I guess I'll have to be the name-dropper...

__________________________________

Thanks Name-dropper RAY! this has left it open for my quest to find a chap Roy Compton who sold Max Brunninghausen the GTZ1 in 1964 (white in colour) and this soon became a popular sight around OZ tracks ,when the GTZ2 became available Max took delivery of the new car the dealer Roy Compton who bought back the GTZ1 which was now (bronze in colour).Roy got it ready to race that season himself however CAMS ruling on monocular vision precluded him from racing and it was sold to Fred Calloway,he in turn was injured in a speed boat accident which prevented him from using a manual gearshift car,and was sold for $3000 in 1965 and i guess Paul or some body will know the story from there. this info was taken from SCW magazine April 1969 where it is on the front cover.

I do digress what i want to find is Mr Compton he lives here in Sydney somewhere out in the Hawkesbury area he turned up at E/Creek HSRCA meetig a few years ago an spoke to Max but he did not get his address and i would like to talk to him about my car's history ,i tryed every means i know to find Mr Compton. HELPpppppp .

#27 Catalina Park

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Posted 27 June 2004 - 08:09

Looking at http://www.whitepages.com.au/ there is an R & JD Compton at 3 Victoria Pl RICHMOND NSW 2753
I hope this helps :wave:

#28 275 GTB-4

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Posted 27 June 2004 - 11:14

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Max Brunninghausen hasn't been mentioned yet, so I guess I'll have to be the name-dropper...

:cool:

Where was Max? The beautiful Chevron B8 did not make an appearance at the Eastern Creek Historics leading to great dissapointment from this individual!!

GT40 and Lola 430? Matich SR3 Marcos 1800 GT partially made up for it though ..... :cat:

#29 eldougo

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Posted 28 June 2004 - 09:07

Originally posted by Catalina Park
Looking at http://www.whitepages.com.au/ there is an R & JD Compton at 3 Victoria Pl RICHMOND NSW 2753
I hope this helps :wave:

______________________________________________

Thanks Catalina Park ,however his name is RAY Compton i talked to him along time back.

#30 Ray Bell

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Posted 29 June 2004 - 04:32

The only time I can ever recall speaking to Max Brunninghausen was about five or six years ago when he had just bought the B8...

#31 RAP

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Posted 07 July 2004 - 11:34

Below is the reply I received from Elvira Ruocco

According to our documentation files, the chassis number AR 750073 originally corresponds to an Alfa Romeo Giulia TZ (105.11), manufactured on the 27th October 1964 and sold on the 26th March 1965 to Alfa Romeo from London, Great Britain.

The body colour is red, with black interiors.



According to our documentation files, the chassis number AR 750053 originally corresponds to an Alfa Romeo Giulia TZ (105.11), manufactured on the 4th February 1965 and sold on the 10th February 1965 to Società per il Commercio dei prodotti Alfa Romeo from Agno, Switzerland.

The body colour is blue, with black interiors.



Please be advised that this answer is intended solely for information use, and its contents does not certify the authenticity of these cars.

#32 richardspringett

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Posted 26 July 2004 - 13:55

While I commend you for driving and cherishing the Ti Super, surely you can't be using it as a daily driver. It's a race car (and one that has to my knowledge never been crashed.)

And I take it that the car isn't in Japan?


Not sure if my paste of Paul Newby comments work, but in belated response the answer is yes to both questions.

The rear axle has been returned to it's correct configuration from sliding block and shortly the 6j wheels will be replaced with correct Campagnolos, all else remains much the same. It's a trifle tempremental in traffic but a few revs clear it's throat. A rebuild of the original engine of which the block and head came with the car is underway.

The Alfa lives here in central Tokyo.

I would like to re-instal the additional dash mounted rev counter do any photos of the interior exist?

Thanks

#33 Ken Smith

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Posted 26 July 2004 - 18:34

I find the level of knowledge on these forums daunting but curiosity overcomes trepidation.

In the mid sixties a family friend turned up to see us in his brand new TZ having traded in his Appia Zagato. We were treated to blasts up the Western Avenue and slides around the Savoy Circus the Cinturas having lost much of their tread in the drive from home in Genoa to down town East Acton.

The car was an absolute knock out and it was difficult to believe that it only had a 1200cc engine.

I've often thought about and lusted after that car but I've yet, inspite of spending too much time with my nose in a book or my specs pointed monitorwise, to see an image of the exact model.

The car was, unsurprisingly red, it had no additional intakes on the bonnet but the most distinctive feature was its typical Kamm tail but absence of the two distinctive shallow side windows that seem to typify the model with just a single moulded perspex rear window to see what had been left behind. I believe it had a live axle.

Scant details I know but can any learned contributor shed light on whether this was one of a series or a one off. I do have the original owners name if that is of any help.

#34 Jack KdH

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Posted 26 July 2004 - 19:15

Hi,

Please e-mail the name of the first owner of the TZ and I will try to find out what one it was.
It wasn't a 1200cc engine. That's for sure.

Ciao,

Jack
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#35 richardspringett

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Posted 27 July 2004 - 04:34

Sounds very much like a SZT. A development of the Alfa Romeo Giulietta SZ featuring the same 1290cc engine and live rear axle but lower roof line and a Kamm tail hence name coda tronca - chopped tail.

The development line from SZ - SZT - TZ seems quite clear.

The Racing Giuliettas by Donald Hughes & Vito Witting da Prato is a good reference.

#36 Ken Smith

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Posted 27 July 2004 - 13:00

:clap: Thanks Richard you have solved something that has puzzled two enthusiasts in my family for many a year, it certainly sounds like the right car and what a car it was.

You probably noticed that I called the tyres Cinturas just to bring back the spirit of the age, no doubt being mainland sourced they were Cinturatos but being a bit of a pedant such things make me happy.

When our friend 'Steve' had the Lancia we often used to drive to the Bristol showrooms to compare the lines of their Zagato with his, Tony Cook also had a helicopter on sale in the showrooms, now that started an entirely new thread...

Happy days!

#37 dretceterini

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Posted 27 July 2004 - 17:41

Originally posted by richardspringett
Sounds very much like a SZT. A development of the Alfa Romeo Giulietta SZ featuring the same 1290cc engine and live rear axle but lower roof line and a Kamm tail hence name coda tronca - chopped tail.

The development line from SZ - SZT - TZ seems quite clear.

The Racing Giuliettas by Donald Hughes & Vito Witting da Prato is a good reference.



I'm confused by your SZT designation. The first 14 Giulietta Zagatos were built on standard sprint chassis which had the Bertone coachwork removed. They were longer, narrower and more "squashed" looking that the round tail Zagatos which were built on bare chassis after these 14 cars. There was alos a one-off Scaglietti rebody of a Bertone car.

http://f6.grp.yahoof.....1819 1957.jpg


The long tail Giulietta Zagatos actually look a lot like the Giulia TZs.

Giulittas are 1300cc and Giulias are 1600cc.

#38 richardspringett

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Posted 28 July 2004 - 07:32

I was unable to open the thread but at the risk of further confusion my understanding is that about 22 SVZ's have been identified. Privateers simply took their usually Sprint Veloces - though some Sprints as well - to Zagato who fitted a light weight body. Zagato body designs varied considerably; and I can add one more to the one-offs with Michelotti's highly successful 'La Goccia' (the drop).

I understand Alfa attempted to replicate SVZ's racing success with the Giulietta SS but quickly introduced the official SZ on the shorter Spider chassis. About 171 produced but....

There followed the model in question built by Alfa and Zagato on the existing SZ floor plan. It retained the same engine. A quick count of chassis in Minerbi suggest 41 built. I've not come across an official name mostly referred to as 'coda tronca' (chopped tail - which is a bit of a nonsense since it's about 6 inches longer that the round tail!) to differentiate it from the SZ , others call it 'series 11', and apparently Alfa simply unchanged as SZ. According to Hughes/Prato Elio Zagato referred to the model as SZT and this nomenclature has stuck in some circles....

The TZ was - apparently - a development of the SZ but with tubular chassis, independent rear, and a prototype/s ran with 1300 engines, yet when it appeared in final form it shared more features with the Giulia, initally utilising a canted over Giulia engine and much else common running gear. But the body shape, lines and some detailing is without doubt a development of the SZ coda tronca.

Universally known as the 1300 (mille tre) and 1600 (mille sei) I believe the actual engine capacities are 1290cc and 1570cc.

#39 dretceterini

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Posted 28 July 2004 - 16:18

Rixchard:

OK, so what you are calling the SZT is what I call the long tail SZ. The terminology SZT doesn't make any sense to me, as the T isn't for tube chassis. I haven't checked the numbers in a long time, but didn't realize that so many had been built.

The rebodied Bertone coupes are what I call SZ Series 1 and the later round tails are what I call SZ Series 2. Agian, I didn't realize that there were that many Series 1....are you including the cars that weren't really rebodied; the Bertone cars with modified noses and such, as appear in the Racing Giuliettas book?

By the way, do you have any idea as to what happened to the Scaglietti bodied car? (the link is nothing more than a photo of that car)

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#40 dretceterini

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Posted 28 July 2004 - 16:22

Richard:

OK, so what you are calling the SZT is what I call the long tail SZ. The terminology SZT doesn't make any sense to me, as none of the Giulietta based cars have tube chassis. I haven't checked the numbers in a long time, but didn't realize that so many "long tails" had been built.

The Bertone coupes rebodied by Zagato are what I call "SZ Series 1" or "SVZ" and the later round tails are what I call "SZ Series 2". It's been my understanding for a long time that there were only 14 "Series 1" cars. Is it possible that your figure of 22 cars includes the Scaglietti bodied car and the Bertone bodied cars with modified noses such as those that are pictured in the Racing Giuliettas book?

By the way, do you have any idea as to what happened to the Scaglietti bodied car? (the link is nothing more than a photo of that car)

Regards,
Stu

#41 richardspringett

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Posted 29 July 2004 - 07:17

Stu

I guess when Elio Zagato called the coda tronca 'SVT' the tubolare had not even been thought about!

According to my references there were 22 SVZs. This includes the Scaglietti car so this is not really a SVZ, it also includes 'La Goccia'. Excluded from this list are 7 grey area SVZs of which one is definitely a recreation.

Funnily enough I too was surprised when looking up the numbers of SZ coda tronca/ SZT's, in my mind I always thought of 18-20, but according to Minerbi 172-217 (178/9, 189 not built) 41 were built (182 only chassis?).

Sorry no information at all on the whereabouts of the Scaglietti SVZ.

Richard

#42 hhh

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Posted 29 July 2004 - 10:02

:evil:
What better waqy to "create" the history for fake cars than writing a book about the cars and their chassisnumbers!!
The TZ is one of the most copied historic GT's around.
Be carefull!

#43 dretceterini

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Posted 29 July 2004 - 17:41

Richard:

I have spent quite some time examining the photos in the Racing Giuliettas book and in other places, and it appears to me that for the SVZs:

14 are real cars that look like the later round tails, but are longer and more "squashed" looking (don't know the S/Ns offhand)

1 car is the Scaglietti (S/N 1819)

1 car is the Conrero La Goccia (S/N 4718)

4 cars are real cars that still have Bertone bodies, but with modified noses and other changes (don't know the S/Ns off hand)

? are recreations


hhh:

I am aware that at least 25%, if not more of the Giulia TZs (both 1st and 2nd series) are recreations. I'm not sure of what percentage of the Giulietta SZ round tail and long tail cars are recreations, but I am certain there are quite a few; expecially round tails.

I would very much like to know what happened to the Scaglietti car and to the 4 "modified" Bertone bodied cars.

#44 Pedro 917

Pedro 917
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Posted 30 July 2004 - 20:51

Just found these pictures from the Historic Spa 6h event in 2002. The car competed in the "Gentlemen Drivers" race and was driven by Wright-Walker. The car has a Goodwood Festival Of Speed sticker (133).

Posted Image

Posted Image

#45 dretceterini

dretceterini
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Posted 30 July 2004 - 20:56

Pretty car, but as some of the recreations are of superb quality, I have no idea if it is real or not.