33 replies to this topic

[Leif Snellman]

I'm pleased to inform you that articles by our friends Hans Etzrodt and Tony Kaye with expert information about the obscure 1925 World Championship are now available at my homepage!

You can find it either via my main index
http://www.kolumbus....llman/index.htm
(preferable as it will be registered on my counter);)

Or cheaters can go straight to
http://www.kolumbus..../1920s/1925.htm

Welcome!

[Leif Snellman]

Due to my fault there were two errors in the table showing the standings after the Italian GP. These have now been corrected.
Sorry!

[angst]

Originally posted by Leif Snellman
I'm pleased to inform you that articles by our friends Hans Etzrodt and Tony Kaye with expert information about the obscure 1925 World Championship are now available at my homepage!

You can find it either via my main index
http://www.kolumbus....llman/index.htm
(preferable as it will be registered on my counter);)

Or cheaters can go straight to
http://www.kolumbus..../1920s/1925.htm

Welcome!

Great. Thanks to Hans and Tony for the hard work. It's nice to see this era getting some coverage. I had no idea, for instance, that Brooklands was considered as a venue for an international event then, nor that they were facing possible litigation due to what we, today, would call noise pollution. Obviously this latter problem was sorted out by 1926. The timing of everything seems to have been just out to make the thing work.

What else it does is show up the AIACR and the CSI for a bunch of politically motivated muddlers. The AAA being shunned despite being the dominant force in the USA. The German's being excluded due to them not being allowed in the AIACR, only to be voted in later on that same year. The San-Sebastian race being declined from the championship. All in all a missed opportunity on all sorts of levels. If only........

[Vitesse2]

Angst - re the "German question", you might find these references useful: firstly, a surmision from David McKinney -
http://forums.atlasf...9358#post619358
and Hans' response which follows it. Then some contemporary press cuttings:
http://forums.atlasf...3487#post933487

WB says in his Brooklands book, referring to the 1926 British GP, that Brooklands had been offered a race in 1925, but had been unable to accept. I now wonder if the noise was just used as an excuse, since the fishtail silencers were already in use before 1925 and WB makes no mention of any new litigation during that year. IIRC the Autocar was talking about "threatened" litigation, so perhaps it came to nothing .....

[Don Capps]

Excellent work by Hans on a most difficult subject. Well done. Thank you so much for allowing us a much better view of the 1925 championship. I am sure the folks at Alfa Romeo would be interested to find all this out....

Kudos to Tony as well. The American scene, especially the trials and tribulations covered in some detail, that Tony describes are often lost shufffle due to the general disinterest in this era. There is actually more to the story Tony tells, but only Tony has done the rooting and digging to bring all the major elements together in one place. There are some residual aspects of this whole affair, especially twix the ACA & the AAA & the AIACR, but that is something that falls out of the story that Tony lays out so well.

And a tip of the hat to Leif for once again providing the space for important historical material to be published.

[fines]

Thanks for this elucidating piece of digging!

As usual, I'll be a menace and pose further questions ; Any notions as to why Tommy Milton suddenly returned to the Duesenberg squad after the less than amicable way of splitting with them four years earlier? He still retained his own team of Millers, I hasten to add...

[uechtel]

Hans, brilliant!

So of course the next thing for you to do will be to deal with the championships of the following years, and in particular with the question how it came to its premature end in 1928?

[Hans Etzrodt]

Originally posted by fines
...Any notions as to why Tommy Milton suddenly returned to the Duesenberg squad after the less than amicable way of splitting with them four years earlier?...

Please tell me more about Milton's return to Duesenberg. I thought he raced on his own after his 1920 split until his retirement.

[Don Capps]

Please tell me more about Milton's return to Duesenberg. I thought he raced on his own after his 1920 split until his retirement.

As Michael infers, it was not quite that simple since Milton did, apparently, return to the Duesenberg fold for a time. It is my understanding that his return was at the request of the Duesenberg team. I would hesitate to directly link his return to the fold with the Championship, but then again....

I will try to remember to check into this after I get home since I do have notes stashed somewhere on Milton that should cover this.

[Hans Etzrodt]

Originally posted by Don Capps
...Milton did, apparently, return to the Duesenberg fold for a time. It is my understanding that his return was at the request of the Duesenberg team...

I will try to remember to check into this after I get home since I do have notes stashed somewhere on Milton that should cover this.

After the split, Tom Milton only raced a Duesenberg in the last three races of 1925, when the Duesenberg team was made up of Peter DePaolo, Red Schafer, Peter Kreis and Wade Morton. At the Miami Board track in February 1926, Milton announced his retirement from racing before the start of his last race. Here he also drove a Duesenberg. I do not have contemporary reports to find out why Milton changed to Duesenberg at the end of his career. Maybe Don Capps, who said he might perhaps have something at home, or possibly Phil Harms, who has access to these old journals, or even Tony with his gigantic collection might know.

[Hans Etzrodt]

To Don Capps and Michael Ferner:

I received the following e-mail from Tony:
"I don't know if this helps, but in 1925 Tommy Milton ran his own team, independently of any factory. He could therefore choose to run whichever make offered the greatest chance of a win. He started the year with two Millers, for himself and Bob McDonogh. As the season progressed DePaolo's victories in the works Duesenberg must have been the writing on the wall for Milton. Anyway, for whatever reason, he added a Duesenberg to his stable and forsook his Miller. The decision was justified by his only win of the year at Charlotte. Incidentally the nature of that win would have been dear to Ross Brawn and Michael Schumacher. With a failed supercharger Milton slipstreamed his team mate McDonogh and thereby maintained his lead to the end. It brings to mind Stirling Moss at the 1956 Italian Grand Prix."

[Doug Nye]

Having only just now had the opportunity to read your pieces - Hans, Leif, Tony - congratulations on a fine piece of work...and an immensely useful clarification.

DCN

[Holger Merten]

Congratulation's too. There's one more question, what happened between 1926 and 1935? AFAIK 1935 is the year when we had a new EC, but for drivers: First one was Caracciola, followed by Rosemeyer, again Caracciola and than the 1939 EC, which we discussed already here on TNF.

[angst]

Originally posted by Holger Merten
Congratulation's too. There's one more question, what happened between 1926 and 1935? AFAIK 1935 is the year when we had a new EC, but for drivers: First one was Caracciola, followed by Rosemeyer, again Caracciola and than the 1939 EC, which we discussed already here on TNF.

AFAIK the World Championship for manufacturers ran fro two more years (1926 and 1927) being won by Bugatti and Delage respectively, then disappeared.

There was a EC for drivers in 1931(Giuseppe Morandi) and 1932(Tazio Nuvolari), some info on this on Quinton Cloud's site. Then again , as you say, the EC starts in 1935.

[Holger Merten]

Unfortunatly for Hans Stuck and his 1934 season on AU.

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by angst


AFAIK the World Championship for manufacturers ran fro two more years (1926 and 1927) being won by Bugatti and Delage respectively, then disappeared.

There was a EC for drivers in 1931(Giuseppe Morandi) and 1932(Tazio Nuvolari), some info on this on Quinton Cloud's site. Then again , as you say, the EC starts in 1935.

Heh heh! It gets a little bit more complicated than that ....

http://forums.atlasf...=&threadid=8352

Oh, and Holger - according to Leif's calculations in the above thread, it actually works out to be Chiron in 1934, not Stuck!

[alessandro silva]

Originally posted by angst




There was a EC for drivers in 1931(Giuseppe Morandi) and 1932(Tazio Nuvolari), some info on this on Quinton Cloud's site. Then again , as you say, the EC starts in 1935.

The 1931 European Champion was Minoia NOT Morandi

[angst]

Originally posted by alessandro silva


The 1931 European Champion was Minoia NOT Morandi

I must remember to check my facts
I must remember to check my facts
I must remember to check my facts .....





With such a terrible memory for names, I really should check these things.

Originally posted by Vitesse2


Heh heh! It gets a little bit more complicated than that ....

;)
Doesn't it always with the pre-war championships?

[Holger Merten]

Originally posted by Vitesse2


Oh, and Holger - according to Leif's calculations in the above thread, it actually works out to be Chiron in 1934, not Stuck!

But it doens 't matter. In30 min I will start my trip to the Nürbugring to join some TNF members by visiting the 1000km race for this weekend. Yes.

[Patrick Italiano]

Hans,

I read your paper with wery high interest. Thanks and congratulations for such a deep research.

BTW, did you send it to Mrs Biffignandi? I guess she would be interested.

[Hans Etzrodt]

Neither Donatella Biffignandi nor Adriano Cimarosti were contacted. If they have their antennas extended they might already know.

[Hans Etzrodt]

Originally posted by Holger Merten
...There's one more question, what happened between 1926 and 1935?...

I answered that in my Grand Prix Winners list on Leifs website:

World Championships
were held as early as the Roaring Twenties, using a simple point scoring system. Only the first three of six championships for manufacturers actually took place. Alfa Romeo won in 1925, Bugatti the following year and Delage in 1927. During the succeeding three years the World Championship was always cancelled at year's end. To qualify for the 1928 championship, the rules required contestants to participate in at least two of the seven planned races. Since only one event was held to the formula, the championship was null and void. The A.I.A.C.R. cancelled the 1929 World Championship in October that year after an European Grand Prix had not taken place and holding that event was obligatory to authorize the championship. From the seven Grandes Épreuves planned for 1930, only one was held to the formula. The A.I.A.C.R. commission decided at year's end not to award the title. Some overenthusiastic statements in contemporary publications proclaimed Robert Benoist as the 1927 World Champion and Louis Chiron as the 1928 and 1930 European Champion. This, of course, is total nonsense since the World Championships were for makes, not for drivers.

European Championships
In 1931, the A.I.A.C.R. finally introduced a European Championship for drivers. Without winning a single event, Ferdinando Minoia on Alfa Romeo became European Champion, narrowly beating his teammate Campari, ending his driving career, which had started in 1904. The unusual 1932 European Championship was for manufacturers and single drivers, both competing with each other for points. Only the best placed car of a factory team counted, regardless of who was driving. Alfa Romeo won, with Tazio Nuvolari second as the European Champion of the drivers, followed by Borzacchini, Caracciola, Dreyfus and Officine Maserati in sixth place.

The European Championship of drivers from 1935 to 1939 is better known. Rudolf Caracciola was champion in 1935, 1937 and 1938, Bernd Rosemeyer in 1936 and Hermann Lang usually is quoted for 1939. This 1939 title is rather doubtful, since the A.I.A.C.R. never issued any official results or awarded the title that year. When applying the previous years' scoring system to the 1939 results, H.P. Müller would have been the rightful 1939 champion. But Lang was undeniably the fastest driver that year, having won also two minor Grands Prix. The neutral Swiss AUTOMOBIL-REVUE reported that to score points for 1939 either a new French Plus or the old German Minus system was to be applied. After the conclusion of the Swiss GP, the A.I.A.C.R. obviously had this dispute not yet settled and the new European Champion was not known. This created an unprecedented, totally absurd situation in the history of world sports: the assessment of a championship was to take place not before but after the conclusion of the series. A settlement was then planned for the October conference "at the green table" but this never happened since the A.I.A.C.R. in Paris could not meet with the world at war since 3 September. Consequently, in December of 1939, Korpsführer Adolf Hühnlein, head of the NSKK-Nazis, who simultaneously was also President of the ONS (Oberste Nationale Sportbehörde) in Germany, declared Lang as the European Champion. After racing had stopped in September, at the onset of WW II, the ONS had revised the system to make Lang champion with 23 points. How exactly the scoring system was altered to carry out this injustice remains a mystery. The ONS, a national German motorsport controlling force, did not have the authority to decide on any of the European Championship outcomes but did so nevertheless in 1939, totally ignoring international agreements. To announce the European Champion was an international matter and only the A.I.A.C.R. could decide on it and award the title in Paris.

[quintin cloud]

Cool, great articals Leif

[Kvadrat]

Originally posted by Hans Etzrodt
Since only one event was held to the formula, the championship was null and void.
...
From the seven Grandes Épreuves planned for 1930, only one was held to the formula.

Which formula do you mean? Wasn't formula free in those years?

[Hans Etzrodt]

1930 regulations called for the following:

• Formula Libre; minimum car weight 900 kg - 1980 lb.
• Two-seater body with minimum body width of 100 cm - 39.3 in.
• Fuel consumption formula: permitting up to 30% benzol mixed with commercial fuel, which was mandatory, with a consumption limit of 14 kg fuel and oil per 100 km - 14.5 mpg,
• Minimum race distance 600 km - 373 mi.
• Two mechanics in addition to the driver(s) allowed to assist at pit stops.
• Minimum engine capacity of 1.1-liter; minimum race distance 600 km - 372 mi.

These regulations were only applied for the European Grand Prix at Spa. This event was not even run to the required minimum distance but presumably still acceptable to the AIACR (the governing body).

[Hans Etzrodt]

Originally posted by Kvadrat
Which formula do you mean? Wasn't formula free in those years?

The meaning of Formula Libre or a Free Formula in this case refers to the freeing or lifting of restrictions regarding engine capacity.

• 1921-1923 a maximum of 3-liter engines were introduced for the International Formula, as it was called.
• 1922-1925 lowered this to 2-liter engines for the grand prix cars and
• 1926-1927 engine capacity was reduced once more to 1.5-liter engines. From
• 1928-1933 the maximum engine capacity restriction was lifted altogether and therefore it was called a "Free Formula".

The AIACR always imposed restrictions and/or regulations one way or another which I have written down here.

[uechtel]

What always has made me wonder why does everybody talk about "free formula years ending in 1934 with the introduction of a new grand prix formula".

In my opinion the 1934 was still more or less a "free formula", for example with less restrictions than (thanks to Hans´ explanation) 1930:

restriction		 1930	  1934

engine capacity	   -		 -

weight limit		 min	   max

body width			X		 X

fuel consumption	  X		 -

In my opinion the big difference was the entry of the Mercedes-Benz and the Auto Union teams, which surprised the others with more competitive cars. If that hadn´t been the case I think we would have still regarded those years as continuation of the Free Formula.

Hope I could explain what I mean.

So is it another case of Silberpfeil propaganda?

[David McKinney]

Free formula is in fact a misnomer
As Hans says, it was used to differentiate from the engine-size limitations which had previously applied. But the existence of weight/dimension etc requirements means the formula was not "free".
Also, the decision by so many organisers to ignore the Grand Prix formula altogether meant an increase in the number of events which would more closeley fit under the formule libre heading

[GIGLEUX]

If remembering well, in 1931 there was a race duration of 10 hours which was lowered to 5 hours in 1932.

[uechtel]

Originally posted by David McKinney
Free formula is in fact a misnomer
As Hans says, it was used to differentiate from the engine-size limitations which had previously applied.

Yes, that´s what I tried to express. So why was the 1934 formula in contrast to this regarded as a "proper" formula? There were no engine limitations either.

[Vitesse2]

Whether by accident or design, the 1934 Formula was the stimulus for improvements in chassis design. As Court points out in Power & Glory Vol 1, chassis design hadn't advanced since 1914 and by the end of 1933 Guidotti was complaining that the hardest job with the Alfa monopostos was keeping them on the road on the straights, such was the way engine power had outstripped chassis design.

He goes on to quote extensively from Sammy Davis' "Casque" column in The Autocar. Davis was very sceptical when the new Formula was announced in 1932, predicting a car the weight of an MG Midget, capable of about 120 mph. He called any maximum weight limit "ridiculous remembering that the engine size is unlimited". Court points out that the Formula was only a success because MB decided (very late) to build a car for it. Otherwise, it too might have gone the same way as all the others since 1927.

[Roger Clark]

I had not heard before that the period 1928-33 was called the "Free formula" years because there was no engine capacity restriction. I thought it was because most organisers did not follow the AIACR formula but ran their races to a literal Formula Libre. As uechtel says, if that definition of Free formula is used, then it applies equally to 1934-37.

[Kvadrat]

So, there was no anarchy in those years, organizers for some reasons didn't care about engine capacity, but had other rules on car dimensions, second seat necessarity etc. There were also old cars built and based on 1926-1927 1,5 litre formula, which were gathered in so called Voiturette class. Right?

[Hans Etzrodt]

by Uechtel on 28-Jun-04
...So of course the next thing for you to do will be to deal with the championships of the following years, and in particular with the question how it came to its premature end in 1928?

Yes - many years have passed and not much happened with these forgotten World Championships but we introduced a change recently.

Cyril Posthumus in “The Roaring Twenties” published in 1980 wrote about the 1925 World Championship, as did Adriano Cimarosti in 1986 “Autorennen” and again 1990 in “Grand Prix Motor Racing”, also Jean-Paul Delsaux in 1993 “50 Grands Prix de Belgique” and in 2000 by Donatella Biffignandi in “Auto d’Epoca”. The 1926 and 1927 World Championships were briefly described again by both accomplished writers Posthumus and Cimarosti and even 1928 was still mentioned but not properly explained.

These mysterious and forgotten Automobile World Championships stretched over a six year period, from 1925 to 1930. They have just now been described -for the first time- in detail on Leif Snellman’s intricate Golden Era website http://www.kolumbus....ellman/main.htm

Edited by Hans Etzrodt, 09 May 2013 - 04:32.