17 replies to this topic

[my_own_shadow]

Does somebody have a reliable information about the tyres that used Alberto Ascari during German'52 GP and and Maurice Trintignant during Monaco/European'55 GP. I mean was it Pirelli or Englebert?

[Paul Taylor]

Steve Small's Grand Prix Who's Who 3rd Edition says that Alberto Ascari used Pirelli and Trintignant used Englebert

[Geza Sury]

Originally posted by Paul Taylor
Steve Small's Grand Prix Who's Who 3rd Edition says that Alberto Ascari used Pirelli and Trintignant used Englebert

According to Forix, Trintignant used Pirelli in Monaco

[Geza Sury]

...but looking at this picture (courtesy of www.f1i.com) I would say he run on Engleberts...


Click on the image to enlarge

[toprpm]

Originally posted by Paul Taylor
Steve Small's Grand Prix Who's Who 3rd Edition says that Alberto Ascari used Pirelli

I would say (looking on my photos) that he used Englebert too! So, it was the first ever World Driver Championchip win for this tyre company. Trintignant's Monaco'55 win also was the first WDC F1 win for Englebert.

[marat]

[Don Capps]

Scuderia Ferrari and Pirelli had a relatively good relationship until late in 1954 when Pirelli once again changed its method of providing tires to teams. Pirelli announced that its tires were for sale to anyone -- including Scuderia Ferrari, and any renumeration would now come from prize money based on victories or other high placing versus the former setup in the form of merchanise and renumeration. Englebert offered Scuderia a Significant retainer and the Scuderia switched posthaste to the Belgian tiremaker.

As for 1952, the Scudria used Pirelli tires as per its contract with the company.

[my_own_shadow]

Thank you Paul, Geza, toprpm, marat, Don for the information and nice photos! But can someone post here a photo of Ascari during 1952 German GP to make sure of the tires he used to win that race?

[marat]

Englebert!

[my_own_shadow]

Ha! Many thanks for this photo, marat!

[my_own_shadow]

Reading other TNF thread Ford VS Ferrari @176 wins I was a bit surprised to see that during one race weekend driver can used tyres of two different tyre companies:

Originally posted by VAR1016

...Of course the main problem was the fact that for contractual reasons the Lancias (under Ferrari) had to run the hopeless Englebert tyres, the Lancia having been designed to run Pirelli Stelvios. At Oulton Park in 1955, Mike Hawthorn put a D50 on pole uing Dunlop R3s. However in the race he had to use the Engleberts and thus finished a distant second to Moss.

So, maybe Ascari (like Hawthorn at Oulton Park) during 1952 German GP used both Pirelli and Englebert? The same question is with Maurice Trintignant at Monaco'55. And in general, were or not in F1 events other examles of using tyres of different companies during one race weekend?

[Don Capps]

So, maybe Ascari (like Hawthorn at Oulton Park) during 1952 German GP used both Pirelli and Englebert? The same question is with Maurice Trintignant at Monaco'55. And in general, were or not in F1 events other examles of using tyres of different companies during one race weekend?

I am at a bit of a loss as to why you seem to doggedly assume that Ascari did not use Pirellis at the GPvD in 1952. Do you work for Englebert? I never realized that there was any issue as to the use of Engleberts by Scuderia Ferrari in 1955 and 1956 -- excepting of course that they were perhaps not as good as the Pirellis on hand and that the most likely cause of Ascari's death was due to the failure of the Engleberts on the car he was driving when he was killed. Plus, the name on the sidewall and the tread were certainly distinct from the Pirellis and the Dunlops -- which were finding their way into the equation.

In the latter part of the 1960s, there was no end of shuffling amongst the teams and tire makers, with some teams often trying out the offerings of two of the companies on a race weekend.

Or, am I just missing something?

[my_own_shadow]

Don, I don't work for Englebert. I'm trying to find what tires were used by Ascari at that GP because if he used during the race Englebert it means that it was the first win for Englebert at WDC event. When I was looking at marat photo I was 100% sure that he used Englebert, but after reading about Hawthorn car's tires at Oulton Park'55 I'm having a doubt about Ascari car's tires at Nurburgring'52...

[marat]

Just to make things more complicated, Ferrari used Englebert also at the Belgian and Dutch
Grand Prix in 1952.
A good photo of Ascari's car at Spa is in the Christian Moity book on the Ferrari victories.
Also evident is the Pirelli Logo on Ascari's driving suit.

[Don Capps]

Having opened my big mouth after having only glanced at several photos, I began to rethink a few things. The distinct possiblity that one has said something that one just might regret and lead to another meal of crow (....Gus Hutchison, Gus Hutchison....) tends to focus the mind.

The primary user of the Englebert tires in 1952 was the Gordini team. I am certain that once I get home and look more closely at some photos I have at home, that the evidence presented by Marat will most likely be supported.

What I am more interested in, if that is the case, is what motivated the changes. At Spa, it could have been a case where the Engleberts simply worked better in the wet conditions. Perhaps some of the same thinking took place at the 'Ring. Ditto Zandvoort. I will sniff around to see what little I have on tires during this period -- which really is not as much I suddenly would like for it to be....

[marat]

1951: Ferrari used Englebert tires at least for Begium, ACF and British GP. Not in Germany,
Italy and Spain.
So the relationship could continue in 1952.

[Don Capps]

I was aware that Scuderia Ferrari had used Engleberts off-and-on in the late-1940s & early-1950s, but was under the mistaken notion that during 1952 and 1953 and into 1954 it stuck with Pirelli.

Spa & the 1952 Belgian GP it certainly looks like Engleberts on the Ascari machine. GP de l'ACF and British GP, Ascari is on Pirellis.

1951 GP de l'ACF, Ascari is definitely on Engleberts. At Silverstone 1951 for the British GP, some Ferrari cars have Pirellis and others Engleberts, such as Gonzalez.... So apparently the first win for Englebert in the CSI WDC was by Gonzalez at the 1951 British GP.....

A tip of the hat and Gold Stars to my_own_shadow and Marat!

[Kekefan]

Englebert got their 1st win in WDC at the 1951 British GP: