49 replies to this topic

[Michael Oliver]

Having now come to terms with ImageShack, I'm now going to deluge you with images! Well alright, just a few.

This slightly crumpled roll of film was given to me by my Old Man quite a long time ago, but I only got round to scanning it the other day. It appears to show a pre- or post-British GP cricket match, with Graham Hill entering into the spirit of the occasion and Jim Clark looking on in amusement (or bemusement, perhaps!). Also featuring S. Moss as umpire! Not sure about chap in final shot in boater, McLaren maybe? I'm sure someone will put me right/shoot me down in flames if it isn't! Any other postive IDs welcome...


Hill and Clark

Hill and Moss, not sure about other umpire.

Hill strafes the crowd while Clark looks on...

The opening pair come in to bat, with Hill looking particularly purposeful!

Erm, that's some shirt you're wearing sir...

Since I'm assuming (always a very dangerous thing!) that my OM took the photos himself, I'd better lay claim to all images being copyright Robert Oliver!

[Ted Walker]

The man in the shirt is Les Leston

[Gary C]

that's certainly Chunky behind Sir Stirling in pic no.2.

[Don Capps]

that's certainly Chunky behind Sir Stirling in pic no.2.

Absolutely.

And the year? 1964, perhaps?

[Michael Oliver]

Originally posted by Don Capps


Absolutely.

And the year? 1964, perhaps?

Yes, now I've looked at it again, it's definitely Chapman! Year, I was going to say 1965 so... The unidentified photos on my other thread were on the same roll of film, so if you can identify the car shown in the first two shots from the race number, it should tell you the year of this cricket match, if you see what I mean...

[Ruairidh]

Oh my heavens - what absolutely lovely shots. This has quite made my day. Thanks so much for sharing. Sad to think that this time will never come again with the obvious relaxation and ease of the drivers, the absence of any obvious commercial explotation and the closeness of the "heroes" to their fans - the looks on the faces of the boys when Hill strafes the crowd - fantastic.

[Don Capps]

1965 would still be very much in the window I was thinking about. It just "feels" like 1964 or 1965.....

[Roger Clark]

THese cricket matches usually tool place after the Grand Prix. In 1965 there was a formula 2 race on the Sunday (the Grand Prix was a Saturday) and the Dutch Grand Prix was a week later. So although I can't prove it, I think there was no match in 1965.

Also, if there had been a match in 1965, J Y Stewart would have been there, and I can't imagine him not appearing in pictures of any event he attended.

[Michael Oliver]

Originally posted by Roger Clark
THese cricket matches usually tool place after the Grand Prix. In 1965 there was a formula 2 race on the Sunday (the Grand Prix was a Saturday) and the Dutch Grand Prix was a week later. So although I can't prove it, I think there was no match in 1965.

Also, if there had been a match in 1965, J Y Stewart would have been there, and I can't imagine him not appearing in pictures of any event he attended.

OK, I've just thought of something rather obvious! My Old Man said something about them being taken at the cricket club near Brands Hatch (somewhere around the bottom of the hill by the roundabout, IIRC), so it has to be 1964, as in 1965 the British GP was held at Silverstone. OTOH, it could be 66 but since all the other photos on the roll would seem to be from an earlier year, I would go with 1964.

[glyn parham]

IIRC these post GP cricket matches were played at Mersham-le Hatch, just a couple of miles east of Ashford. The pavilion certainly looks like the one on that ground. (I passed it just last Thursday between appointments).
The ground that you are thinking of is that of Farningham (another one I have played on many times), but the pavilion is a bit more modern although I cannot remember exactly how old it is.
Were these games a fund raiser for charity, if so Mersham would have been an ideal choice as it is on land owned by (the late) Lord Mountbatten of Burma?
Glyn

[glyn parham]

In picture two you can clearly see chunky as the second umpire, plus Paddy Hopkirk and Sir John Whitmore standing behind Graham Hill. I am almost certain that the horseshoe still hangs proudly over the pavilion entrance and that the matches were played in 1964 and 1966.
Glyn

[Vitesse2]

In picture 2 Bette Hill is fourth from the right, behind the deck chairs. She can also be seen right behind Clark in picture 4 - looks like two other Doghouse Club ladies with her: can anyone ID them?

In picture 4, note also that Graham and Jimmy appear to have each taken one of two pairs of pads - one set clean, one dirty. Which reminds me of a story about Peter Sainsbury and Barry Richards .... which has no place here, other than that it involves cricket pads!

[bill moffat]

Most definitely on Lord Brabourne's estate at Mersham. I live in Aldington the next-door village and this is most definitely the Mersham pavilion.

The cricket match was a regular charity fixture on the day after the Brands GP. Graham Hill's country retreat was just around the corner in Brabourne, hence (partly) the chosen venue. Graham is still remembered with immense fondness around here and most of the older locals have fond memories and tales to tell. A retired local copper assures me that he managed to stop GH for speeding, although the uneven match between his asthmatic Anglia and Graham's Zodiac was only just won. An autograph and one of GH's disarming winks was enough to win the day..

[Twin Window]

On pic 2, as Glyn says, the blokes between Hill and Moss are John Whitmore and Paddy Hopkirk. The chap to the right of Clark's face looks like it could be Max Mosley...

Is the fellow in the white shirt standing behind Clark on pic 3 David Phipps?

Can anyone explain to me what the gentleman on Clark's right is doing on pic 4?!

I have the programme for the 1974 match, so if anyone's interested I'll scan it and post it up here.

Twinny

[bill moffat]

Originally posted by Twin Window
I have the programme for the 1974 match, so if anyone's interested I'll scan it and post it up here.

Twinny

I would love to have sight of this.

At Retromobile a few years ago an advertising poster for this event was up for grabs. Graham Hill ( bat in hand) stared out of the poster and, in Kitchiner style, requested your attendance at the match. This item had been signed by most of the drivers present, hence the price of a thousand pounds or so..

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by bill moffat


I would love to have sight of this.

Here it is, page by page (except for the empty autograph page). Having seen those present in '74, this must be the programme for the 1972 match, and therefore the pics used were presumably taken in '70...











...and here are two shots from the '74 match. Missing from the left of the scan are Ken Tyrrell, John Watson and Jody Scheckter...


(Source: 'Through The Lens' by Nigel Snowdon)


I presume 1974 was the last time the match took place, given that it was a G Hill event.

Twinny

[Michael Oliver]

Originally posted by Twin Window
On pic 2, as Glyn says, the blokes between Hill and Moss are John Whitmore and Paddy Hopkirk. The chap to the right of Clark's face looks like it could be Max Mosley...

Showed these to my Old Man and he suggested that the person to the right of Clark's face in pic 2 was Tony Maggs, who I think is visible in a later pic (can't remember which one now) talking to Whitmore.

[Michael Oliver]

Originally posted by bill moffat
Most definitely on Lord Brabourne's estate at Mersham. I live in Aldington the next-door village and this is most definitely the Mersham pavilion.

The cricket match was a regular charity fixture on the day after the Brands GP. Graham Hill's country retreat was just around the corner in Brabourne, hence (partly) the chosen venue. Graham is still remembered with immense fondness around here and most of the older locals have fond memories and tales to tell. A retired local copper assures me that he managed to stop GH for speeding, although the uneven match between his asthmatic Anglia and Graham's Zodiac was only just won. An autograph and one of GH's disarming winks was enough to win the day..

My OM thinks he may still have the programme for this match - only now that his policy of never throwing anything like that away is coming into its own! However, he is adamant that he never went to a match at Mersham and that this was at Farningham. If he finds the programme, perhaps he might change his mind! Then again, he might not!

[bill moffat]

Thanks for the scan Twinnie, it makes fascinating reading.

Before we move on a little history here. John Knatchbull, the current Lord Brabourne, married Patricia daughter of Earl Mountbatten of Burma. Norton Knatchbull, who according to Twinnie's scan played a good game of cricket that day, was their first-born son and was thus grandson to Earl Mountbatten. I guess, he would be in his mid fifties now. Ashford's large boys' Grammar school is named in his honour. Alas Norton's youngest brother Nicholas died with Earl Mountbatten when the IRA unforgiveably targeted his yacht in 1979.

Graham Hill's country retreat was just around the corner from the Brabourne estate and I can only presume that the post-GP event was conceived as the consequence of a rather posh version of a chat over the garden fence.

The 1000 acre Brabourne estate and the accompanying Mersham le Hatch cricket ground remain largely unchanged although commercial pressures have put an end to active farming. Only this morning I drove past the cricket ground. The square looked in fine order, the F1 testing ban is imminent and it struck me that there will be plenty of bored F1 drivers and mechanics sitting around. Added to this JYS remains a fine mover of men and is never one to shy away from a charitable cause...just dreaming ;)

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by bill moffat
Thanks for the scan Twinnie, it makes fascinating reading.

Before we move on a little history here. John Knatchbull, the current Lord Brabourne, married Patricia daughter of Earl Mountbatten of Burma. Norton Knatchbull, who according to Twinnie's scan played a good game of cricket that day, was their first-born son and was thus grandson to Earl Mountbatten. I guess, he would be in his mid fifties now. Ashford's large boys' Grammar school is named in his honour. Alas Norton's youngest brother Nicholas died with Earl Mountbatten when the IRA unforgiveably targeted his yacht in 1979.

Quite unbelievable... My son, who lives with his mother in Tenterden, has been attending Norton Knatchbull for three years! Not only that, but tomorrow (sorry, today - just) is his very last day there, as he's transferring to a grammar school in Canterbury...!

I neither spotted the name in the prog, nor knew any of the other information. Thanks, Bill!

Twinny

[Lotus23]

Michael, thank you, and your Dad, so much for sharing these photos of Simpler Times. Like most Yanks, I know next-to-nothing about cricket, but it's terrific to see these first-rank drivers having such a good time.

Thanks also, Twinny, for the '72 programme. Whoever wrote the notes therein is top-notch in my book; I wish I could write half as well!

[bill moffat]

Originally posted by Twin Window
Quite unbelievable... My son, who lives with his mother in Tenterden, has been attending Norton Knatchbull for three years! Not only that, but tomorrow (sorry, today - just) is his very last day there, as he's transferring to a grammar school in Canterbury...!

I neither spotted the name in the prog, nor knew any of the other information. Thanks, Bill!

Twinny

The Moffat dynasty involves 3 sons at "Scratchballs" as they affectionately know it.

I'm off to Brands this weekend and will aim to post photos of both the Mersham and Farningham cricket pavilions so that we can settle this debate !

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by bill moffat
The Moffat dynasty involves 3 sons at "Scratchballs" as they affectionately know it.

I spoke to my son briefly and he thinks he knows of a Peter Moffat, who might even have been in his year; ie year 9, which finished today.

Is Peter one of yours, Bill? My Thomas wasn't even sure about the name! A big school, though.

Twinny

[bill moffat]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bill moffat
[B]Most definitely on Lord Brabourne's estate at Mersham. I live in Aldington the next-door village and this is most definitely the Mersham pavilion.


I'm out of the door on my way to Brands but will post later today. Basically the message is similar to the one that I used to give after over-exuberant parties.."ignore everything I said".

I've been out and about around Kent with my digital camera and, having mastered Image Shack, will post images of Mersham and Farningham tonight....

..and Twinny, yes Peter is the middle Moffat !

[glyn parham]

Before Bill posts his photos, don't be surprised to discover that the Farningham pavilion is a lot more modern (ie brick) than Mersham which is still timber.
Glyn

[bill moffat]

Ironically the villages of Mersham and Aldington were hit by an almighty electrical storm yesterday and power has just been restored. Once I've sorted the House out I'll post as promised, Bill.

[bill moffat]

Gentlemen, courtesy of Image Shack, restored electrical power and Olympus cameras I present my latest contribution to the Kentish cricket pavilion debate:

Mersham.

Farningham

..from which I guess we conclude that Michael's OM was correct all along and I was talking nonsense. Scenario would seem to be that Mersham has a small,rustic pavilion whilst the Pavilion photographed with GH etc was the Farningham pavilion prior to a rebuild. Unless of course it was neither...

[bill moffat]

[bill moffat]

Try again..

Mersham.

Farningham

[bill moffat]

..and a few miles South of Farningham at the weekend time to visit the ancient Church of St Bartholomew at Otford to quietly pay respects...

[Twin Window]

To paraphrase a popular expression appropriate to the 70s period of this thread; 'Nice one, Bill!'

Isn't it strange to see these places deserted!

Twinny

PS Please whisper a respectful word on my behalf, the next time you visit Tom...

[sabatinitennis]

I have a load of photos from the Mersham le Hatch matches from 1972 and 1974, plus I still have the autographs of Schenken, Hill, Stewart, Fittipaldi and Hulme that I got when a wee lad. The Formlua One drivers played a Showbiz eleven and in the photos that I have Prince Charles and Prince Philip captained AND played for the Showbiz X1. What chance today of getting the current bunch of overpaid Formula One media-savvie prima-donnas to give up their time to play cricket? I got to this thread as someone had just mentioned professional football teams sending down many first team players for a testimonial match in Ashford and wondered if they would do it today .... how times change eh? The web-site is that of Ashford United and the relevant thread is oddly called Dave Mackay ....  the thread wandered a bit after its beginning!

 I'm not a Formula One fan at all, but thought I'd share this with you. Whilst here though, can someone please tell me what the attraction is with racing cars? Have I missed a trick ... or the point. It is like watching paint dry and very expensive to do so too! Where is the skill ??.... please tell me!!! Is is a male testosorone thing .... fast cars etc? !!

Edited by sabatinitennis, 06 March 2015 - 11:49.

[Michael Ferner]

Where is the skill? Well, have you ever opened the bonnet of a car? If you have, and you're still asking, then you've missed the point...

[Vitesse2]

I think it's fair to say that if you asked twenty random motor sport fans you'd get at least nineteen different answers ...

[arttidesco]

Whilst here though, can someone please tell me what the attraction is with racing cars? Have I missed a trick ...

 

 

... I guess you either know it, smell it, hear it and feel it... or you don't
 

[P.Dron]

Where is the skill ??

 

If it's that bloody easy, you are obviously a potential world champion.

[kayemod]

 

 I'm not a Formula One fan at all, but thought I'd share this with you. Whilst here though, can someone please tell me what the attraction is with racing cars? Have I missed a trick ... or the point. It is like watching paint dry and very expensive to do so too! Where is the skill ??

 

Well, so far you haven't "shared" a single thing with us, so what was the point of coming on this forum other than to cause offence?

 

As to your gratuitously offensive "Where's the skill" comment, although we still have more than nine months of 2015 to go, I feel safe in nominating that question as the single most brain-dead thing we'll see on here all year.

[Jack-the-Lad]

I think we're being trolled.

I suggest sabatini pose the question in the Racing Comments forum.....

[stuartbrs]

Funny I read this today.. I was talking to my trainee the other day, who is into soccer. He hasn't even the remotest interest in cars, and was adamant that compared to Soccer (or football as it seems to be called elsewhere) it takes no skill to race a car because its all "about the car".. and you just "sit there and drive". Anyway, it was one of those conversations I was happy to leave alone...

 

Ive always believed that professional motorsport is one of the biggest team sports there is.

[ian senior]

Jeeeez.....

 

WE know the skill that's involved in driving racing cars. Plenty of other people have no interest in the sport and don't get it at all.  No reason to be nasty to them.  I don't understand tennis or golf.  No interest in them at all, don't see the appeal, don't know what skill (if any) is involved, don't bloody care.

 

No wonder that some people think TNF isn't what it used to be.  I'm  starting to agree with them.

[GMACKIE]

What about cricket, then? How difficult is it to prevent a ball - much smaller than the bat - from hitting the wicket...too easy.

[sabatinitennis]

Now that cars are much faster - have we lost the skill element though? Many other sports have become a tad too technical since 1990 ---- football is now played on surfaces like a snooker table, cricket is now like a game of chess and has had its rules in the one-day version tinkered with so much that it now resembles a baseball match where the bowlers are just flogged, there's no muddy pitches for rugby players to get dirty on, there's powerful rackets for tennis players so I wondered where the skill was in Formula One ........................ if I had a car that was much faster than Hamilton's say .....................he could have as much skill as he wished for and I would beat him. This is not the same for Mr Usain Bolt as I would have to use my own legs and body to beat him and not a bleedin' car ..... mind you, the latter would be very handy in this quest!

 I have obviously missed the point with racing cars as to me (if no-one else) - it's a tad boring just watching cars going round and round .... and round and round .... and round (yawn) and round ..... but thank-you for your replies ...... all most helpful.

[GMACKIE]

 - it's a tad boring just watching cars going round and round .... and round and round .... and round (yawn) and round ..... but thank-you for your replies ...... all most helpful.

 

Could not agree more...however, try hopping into any race car [doesn't need to be faster than Hamilton's] and lapping a race circuit within 1 second of any 'top' driver, and see how you go.
 

[RogerFrench]

Try hopping into a racing car faster than Hamilton's and completing one lap......at any speed.

[D-Type]

It's true of any sport.  If you give  an honest answer to the question "What is the point?" it has to be that there isn't one.
 

Let's take a sport that is neutral to this discussion - golf.  Presumably people play golf because they enjoy hitting a ball.  The better you get, the less you hit the ball so presumably you enjoy the game less.  And top golfers must be either the most miserable or the most masochistic of sportsmen.  Where's the flaw in the logic?

[RogerFrench]

Hmmm, so when racing you should go as slowly as possible so you'll spend more time doing it?
Or am I getting confused?

[kayemod]

It's true of any sport.  If you give  an honest answer to the question "What is the point?" it has to be that there isn't one.
 

Let's take a sport that is neutral to this discussion - golf.  Presumably people play golf because they enjoy hitting a ball.  The better you get, the less you hit the ball so presumably you enjoy the game less.  And top golfers must be either the most miserable or the most masochistic of sportsmen.  Where's the flaw in the logic?

 

As a non-golfer, I've long suspected that to many, the main appeal of walking around trying to hit small balls into far-away small holes, is being able to wear lurid trousers in public without getting arrested.

[stuartbrs]

Golf.. spell it backwards and its a more accurate description.

[Rob Ryder]

I'm a golfer, and I consider it an enjoyable test of individual skill.

22 guys (or gals) chasing a piece of leather (now plastic) around a field to knock it into a giant net is another matter  

[Slurp1955]

It's just not cricket, a reference the English One Day International XI I presume.

Edited by Slurp1955, 10 March 2015 - 05:40.