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1950s numbering systems


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#1 Barry Boor

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Posted 14 July 2004 - 17:46

Having explained to a young American acquaintance the method (or lack of it) concerning the numbering of cars at races through the years up to the mid-1970s, I got to thinking about some strange anomalies.

Like.... why did Ferrari always seem to be given very high numbers at Monaco? (this ran from 1955 right through to 1962)

Also, although I know that the Belgian organisers fiddled with numbers to try to avoid pirate program selling, the 1962 entry was very strangely numbered; BRM 1 & 2, no 3, Campbell-Jones 4, Bowmaker 5 & 6 (6 didn't arrive); de Beaufort 7, no 8; Ferrari 9, 10, 11 & 12 etc etc with the factory Coopers last on the list at 25 & 26. Odd!

Anyone know any reasons????

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#2 GIGLEUX

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Posted 14 July 2004 - 18:48

Barry, at Monaco the numbers were allocated following the nationality of the entrant so that if we consider Ferrari, Italy is of course after Allemagne (Germany), Belgique (Belgium), France, Grande Bretagne (Great Britain). In the Italy allocation Ferrari is before Maserati, and in Great Britain in 1958 for example you have in alphabetic order BRM (8-10) Connaught (12-14) Cooper (16-18)
Cooper Walker (20-22) Lotus (24-26) Vanwall (28-30-32). N°2 was for K.Campbell Maserati as being from Australia, N°4 Godia Espagne (Spain), N°56 Testut as being from Monaco and 58 Bonnier Sweden.

#3 Barry Boor

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Posted 14 July 2004 - 19:01

Well, well, Jean-Maurice, I never knew that!

Thanks very much indeed for that info.

#4 David McKinney

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Posted 14 July 2004 - 21:20

Me neither and ditto
I just presumed allocation was done according to the order each team's entries were received

#5 GIGLEUX

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Posted 14 July 2004 - 22:50

And the same rule applied from 1930 up to 1965! with sometimes little variations; and it was also valuable for minor races of the events, FJ and F3.
Sometimes the alphabetical order was changed: in 1960 the two last numbers were for the Scarabs of Reventlow because of USA and in 1961 the Camoradi entry was under the E letter for Etats Unis (USA in French). Very interesting because these lists allow to guess what were the first entries: in 1961 Moss N°20 was not justified except if we consider that RRC Walker first entry was for a Cooper changed after that for the Lotus 18. In 1957 Masten Gregory had N°2 (Etats Unis) though his Maserati was a Centro Sud one, so the entry was certainly at first taken by Gregory himself.
In 1958 Sheldon give N°2 to Fangio with an alternative entry for Campbell which can be right if the entry was taken by Fangio, A for Argentina; but I don't agree as the official program and preliminary lists published in local newspapers always put Campbell with first position A for Australia; always on official program N°42 was for the first Maserati with no name of driver and be sure it was the entry for Fangio if he came; as he didn't N°42 was lately allocated for Gould and Sc Centro Sud.

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#6 Macca

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Posted 15 July 2004 - 08:33

Maybe it's just me being dim so early in the morning, but................

Monaco 1966: McLaren & Amon (who didn't appear) - # 1 & 2

Did the organisers mistakenly have them down as Australian?



Paul M

#7 David McKinney

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Posted 15 July 2004 - 08:40

Originally posted by Macca
Maybe it's just me being dim so early in the morning, but................

Monaco 1966: McLaren & Amon (who didn't appear) - # 1 & 2

Did the organisers mistakenly have them down as Australian?



Paul M

Where was Brabham?
Maybe the heading was 'Australasian'?

#8 GIGLEUX

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Posted 15 July 2004 - 17:52

Originally posted by Macca
Maybe it's just me being dim so early in the morning, but................


Paul , absolutely you were, read the first sentence of my post: "And the same rule applied from 1930 up to 1965". Weren't you speaking of 1966?!!!......

#9 Vitesse2

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Posted 24 January 2005 - 19:59

Just noticed that the Swiss did this as well! But in German. The 1936 Prix de Berne entry list starts with McEvoy (Australien), Kohlrausch (Deutschland), Mélinant (Frankreich), Embiricos (Griechenland), Seaman etc (Grossbritannien), Belmondo etc (Italien), Herkuleyns (Niederlande), Hug etc (Schweiz) and Bira (Siam). The final name on the list is Reggie Tongue - presumably a late entry or reserve.

In the GP: #2-16 Deutschland, 18-22 Frankreich, 24-26 Grossbritannien, 28-38 Italien, 40 Schweiz.

#10 D-Type

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Posted 25 January 2005 - 00:10

Why was it only the Belgians who were concerned about pirate programmes? Are Belgian copyright laws less stringent or something.

#11 Rob29

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Posted 25 January 2005 - 09:34

Originally posted by Macca
Maybe it's just me being dim so early in the morning, but................

Monaco 1966: McLaren & Amon (who didn't appear) - # 1 & 2

Did the organisers mistakenly have them down as Australian?



Paul M

No,numbers seemed to depend on nationality of the ENTRANT. McLaren was based and built in GB.Looking at the entry list ;numbers 1-15 were all GB;16-17 Ferrari,Italy,18,Swiss,19 USA. Guy Ligier may have been a late entry?

#12 Stephen W

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Posted 25 January 2005 - 12:52

The same numbering scheme, using nationalities of the drivers, was still being used at Monaco for the Formula Three teams in 1972.

Allemagne (Germany) were first followed by America, Australie, Austriche, Belgique, Bresil, Danemark, France, Grande-Bretagne, Irlande, Italie, Liechstenstein, Nouvelle-Zelande, Suede, and finally Suisse.

This often led to Team Mates having wildly different numbers. Although it wasn't fool proof as Francois Rousselot, who was definately French, was allocated a number in the middle of the Brits. This probably came about due to him driving for the works GRD Team who probably put down that he lived in England. :p

#13 Vitesse2

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Posted 25 January 2005 - 14:08

Just to clarify, the Swiss numbering was also based on the nationality of the entrant, not the driver, although as most of the Voiturette entries that year were privateers there was only one difference: Baumer's Austin was a works entry, so he appears in the middle of a clutch of British drivers.

#14 anjakub

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Posted 29 January 2005 - 18:32

Similar was on Hungary. The numbers seemed to depend on nationality of the entrant (of course in Hungarian alfabetical order).
The fragment of race program Grand Prix Hungary 1936 (Hivatalos Program - Magyarorszag Automobil Nagydija - 1936 Junius 21)
Anglia
2 Miss Ellison...Maserati
4 Dobson...Alfa Romeo
6 Martin...Alfa Romeo
Franciaorszag ( = France)
8 Raph...Maserati
Magyaorszag ( = Hungary)
10 Hartmann...Maserati
Nemetorszag ( = Germany)
12 von Stuck...Auto Union
14 Varzi...Auto Union
16 Rosemeyer...Auto Union
18 Caracciola...Mercedes Benz
20 Chiron...Mercedes-Benz
22 von Brauchitsch...Mercedes-Benz
Olaszorszag ( = Italy)
24 Nuvolari...Alfa Romeo
26 Brivio...Alfa Romeo
28 Tadini...Alfa Romeo
Romania
30 Cristea...Ford special
Spanyorszag ( = Spain)
32 Villapadierna...Alfa Romeo

#15 Peter Morley

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Posted 30 January 2005 - 08:05

Originally posted by D-Type
Why was it only the Belgians who were concerned about pirate programmes? Are Belgian copyright laws less stringent or something.


Probably more an issue of enforcement - Spa at the time was a huge circuit, on public roads, so very accessible to any dodgy programme vendor
Most other circuits were smaller and closed off, so much harder to gain access.

And as with many copyright issues, by the time you have prosecuted the crook the event is over or he has sold his entire stock so you can't stop him selling the item which is what you really want to do.

#16 Barry Boor

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 11:32

Following on from Jean-Maurice's excellent description of the Monaco numbering system in the 1950s, I notice an anomaly in 1950. Everything seems to go according to the alphabetical order but suddenly, in at #42 is Raymond Sommer.

Working on the basis of the entrant's nationality, it appears this must have been a works Ferrari.

Does this mean that Sommer's Ferrari was a factory car? If so, I never realised that he drove for the factory in F.1 - so how many times did he?

#17 Vitesse2

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 11:47

"Le Grand Prix de Monaco 1929-1979" makes a distinction between the "deux voitures officielles" of Ascari and Villoresi and Sommer's short-chassis car. Perhaps he hired it?

#18 Tim Murray

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 12:28

Allen Brown, on the Old Racing Cars 1950 Monaco GP page, says that Sommer's Ferrari was loaned to him for the early-season French races, including Monaco, and was returned to the factory in June. Sheldon shows the entrant for all Sommer's 1950 Ferrari races as Scuderia Ferrari.

#19 Michael Ferner

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 20:00

I think you have to distinguish between "entrant" and "owner", in general. Some private owners have had their cars entered by the factory, for whatever reasons (a service agreement, a sort of sponsorship by the works etc.). There are a few examples around for this, also privatly owned cars entered by individuals or companies other than their owner(')s.

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#20 Barry Boor

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 21:53

Well the Monaco organisers certainly considered Sommer's car to be a works entry, otherwise he would have been numbered with the French entries, i.e. 10 - 22.

#21 David McKinney

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 22:44

That'll be because it was entered by Scuderia Ferrari (see the post before yours)

#22 john medley

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Posted 12 February 2011 - 07:36

When I wrote" Bathurst-- Cradle of Australian Motor Racing" I encountered a skeleton that I have kept in the closet all these years. I think only two people have noticed the skeleton.

In one prewar race, the organizers changed some but not all numbers after practice. I think I was too wearied trying to solve the problem that I didnt solve it. I just reproduced the printed program, reproduced the photos of cars with a mixture of numbers, remained silent, and hid in the closet. Only two people appear to have noticed