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#1 Doug Nye

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Posted 24 July 2004 - 18:09

After recent embuggerances - I hope you might all enjoy a return to normal activities - if you feel so moved by the following why not identify, discuss, debate, raise related matters etc???

All photos from The GP Library...of course...under plain wrapper, for personal and private enjoyment only... :stoned:

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#2 starlet

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Posted 24 July 2004 - 19:16

3 : airbox from the Surtees's car ( Ferrari 156 F1 # 16 ) during the 1963 French GP at Reims.

It was to intend to improve the air feeding, and it got a light earning of power for high regime.

#3 starlet

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Posted 24 July 2004 - 19:29

10 : Jacques Swaters during the 1954 Reims 12 Hours, in the Ecurie Francorchamps Jaguar C Type s/n XKC 012/047.

With Roger Laurent, he was classified third.

#4 starlet

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Posted 24 July 2004 - 19:38

Hey !
I' m alone !

5 : Willy Mairesse and its Ferrari 246 F1, during the 1960 Belgium GP.
Retired due to transmission failure.

#5 David McKinney

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Posted 24 July 2004 - 19:45

1. Bira and Dobson
9. A rare shot of Peter Whitehead in his Maserati 300S?

#6 GIGLEUX

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Posted 24 July 2004 - 19:46

No, not completely alone but a French connection.

N°7 1931 Monaco GP: Rudolf Caracciola Mercedes Benz SSKL. Retired on lap 53 with clutch troubles.
Not exactly the car for a Monaco victory.

#7 starlet

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Posted 24 July 2004 - 19:48

2 : 1964 Reims 12 hours.

N° 51 : Alpine M 64 s/n 1711 : Roger De lageneste - Henri Morrogh = 18 th
N° 50 : Alpine M 64 s/n 1709 : José Rosinski - Henri Grandsire = 19 th

#8 FRWL

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Posted 24 July 2004 - 19:50

2. Reims 12h, 1964. #50 Rosinski/Grandsire; #51Delageneste/Morrogh. Alpine M64 Renault.

#9 T54

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Posted 24 July 2004 - 19:53

8: Gurney after his victory at Brands in the 1967 Race of Champions in the Eagle V12.


#10 D-Type

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Posted 24 July 2004 - 19:58

Originally posted by GIGLEUX
No, not completely alone but a French connection.

N°7 1931 Monaco GP: Rudolf Caracciola Mercedes Benz SSKL. Retired on lap 53 with clutch troubles.
Not exactly the car for a Monaco victory.


That's what I thought but his race number was 34.

Could it be Arco's SSK at Monaco in 1930? If not, it isn't Monaco.

#11 FRWL

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Posted 24 July 2004 - 20:02

4. Zeltweg 500 km 1966. #1 Jochen Rindt, Ford GT40. #17 Gijs van Lennep, Porsche 906

#12 fines

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Posted 24 July 2004 - 20:03

I'm pretty sure #7's Nice.

#13 fines

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Posted 24 July 2004 - 20:05

Originally posted by T54
8: Gurney after his victory at Brands in the 1967 Race of Champions in the Eagle V12.

... and Lorenzo Bandini in the background - didn't he finish 3rd there? Must've been one of his last races... :cry:

#14 GIGLEUX

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Posted 24 July 2004 - 20:25

Originally posted by D-Type


That's what I thought but his race number was 34.

Could it be Arco's SSK at Monaco in 1930? If not, it isn't Monaco.


Except that it was in 1929 that the Mercedes Benz of Caracciola wore N°34 and it was a SSK!

Posted Image
Start of the 1931 Monaco GP.

#15 GIGLEUX

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Posted 24 July 2004 - 20:32

Originally posted by D-Type

Could it be Arco's SSK at Monaco in 1930? If not, it isn't Monaco.


In 1930 Arco Zineberg had N°2.

Fines: no trace of such a car at Nice in my tablets.

#16 D-Type

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Posted 24 July 2004 - 21:01

Whoops! I found a picture of 1929 and thought it was the only time he ran the SSK/SSKL :blush:

#17 T54

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Posted 24 July 2004 - 21:58

Originally posted by T54
8: Gurney after his victory at Brands in the 1967 Race of Champions in the Eagle V12....

"and Lorenzo Bandini in the background - didn't he finish 3rd there? Must've been one of his last races..."



Not exactly: from left to right: Goodyear's European racing director Leo Mehl (from the back), Goodyear technician, Jo Ramirez (later of McLaren Racing fame), Mike Lowman (still active), Tim Wall, Dan Gurney, "Haff" Haffenden (mechanic to Dan who stayed during the Indy glory years of the mid 1970's), Bill Dunne, Goodyear technician. No Lorenzo Bandini there, this is an Eagle victory.
Here is a more complete picture:

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100 bottles of decent bubbly for Big Dan, shared with Harry:

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Regards,

T54 :wave:

#18 Ray Bell

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Posted 24 July 2004 - 22:25

Originally posted by T54
8: Gurney after his victory at Brands in the 1967 Race of Champions in the Eagle V12.


Yes, waving to Barry Boor...

#19 Doug Nye

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Posted 25 July 2004 - 16:22

I'm always amused by the little leather 'bonnet strap' on the Ferrari in picture 3 - perhaps the last ever to appear in Formula 1 (unless any of you know better?)...

For years leather bonnet straps had been still required by the RAC scrutineers at some International races held in the UK, and aggrieved visiting teams had to fit them, under protest. Not necessarily the case with this pic, of course, but of interest - I thought - nonetheless?

FRWL did well to recognise the GT40 pic - No 4 - as being on the concrete runways at Zeltweg - while a tiny detail visible on photo 5 might amuse...

This model F1 Ferrari V6 had pannier tanks, the outer skin of the right-side tank being visible here -see the washered rivets and tank straps? - below the detachable upper panel which acted merely as a cockpit surround and windscreen base.

Near the rear end of this surround see that rather jagged looking slot, apparently belted through with a cold-chisel?

Well directly underneath there is the filler neck and cap for the right-side fuel tank, and that slot was to allow a dipstick to be passed straight through and down the neck once the cap - obscured beneath the wrap-over body panelling from this angle - had been flipped open underneath.

It was the only way they could speedily check fuel level without laboriously unfastening and removing the top surround panel.

A neat model making detail...

DCN

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#20 Kvadrat

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Posted 26 July 2004 - 02:01

Originally posted by Doug Nye
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Originally posted by David McKinney
1. Bira and Dobson



Both on ERAs. Donington or Crystal Palace?

#21 Vitesse2

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Posted 26 July 2004 - 09:19

Originally posted by Kvadrat
Both on ERAs. Donington or Crystal Palace?

1938 Nuffield Trophy at Donington? In which case, Bira might have actually just lapped Dobson, since he finished a lap ahead of him.

#22 Doug Nye

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Posted 26 July 2004 - 22:10

Nope - CP...

DCN

#23 Kvadrat

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Posted 27 July 2004 - 04:02

Originally posted by Vitesse2

1938 Nuffield Trophy at Donington?


AFAIK at 1938 Nuffield Trophy Dobson drove white ERA B #24.

But I can't remember such a background at Donington. I'd say it could be Crystal Palace.

#24 Kvadrat

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Posted 27 July 2004 - 04:06

Posted Image

Caption:

9 July 1938
Nuffield Trophy Race

ERA R7B

Arthur Dobson - 3rd place

Source: http://www.tops.co.n...gton/prewar.htm

***

Did I do correctly with copyright matters?

#25 Macca

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Posted 27 July 2004 - 08:39

Dan must indeed have been waving to BB in # 5 - the picture was taken on Bottom Straight behind the pits, whereas my Dad and I were standing halfway from Paddock to Druids. I've got a colour slide somewhere of Dan waving to me too!


Paul M

#26 RAP

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Posted 27 July 2004 - 09:56

1. Crystal Palace 9 Oct 1937 Imperial Trophy. Bira (24) 1st, Dobson (7) 2nd

#27 Michael Müller

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Posted 27 July 2004 - 20:19

Monaco 1931 posted by Gigleux:

Who and what is r/n 58?

#28 Vitesse2

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Posted 27 July 2004 - 20:57

I think it's just the angle that makes the number look like 58, Michael. Surely it must be Stuber's Bugatti #56? Red with a white bonnet? "Interesting" single-seat conversion though! A charitable interpretation would be that the panels were hand-beaten :lol:

#29 Michael Müller

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Posted 27 July 2004 - 21:21

Seems to be the only workable solution.

#30 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 27 July 2004 - 22:09

Originally posted by GIGLEUX
Posted Image Start of the 1931 Monaco GP.

It appears that car #8, driven by Caracciola, was a Mercedes-Benz SSK, not SSKL. His victorious Mille Miglia SSKL from the previous weekend was in the factory for overhaul. Monaco would have been the only race of the 14 events contested by him in 1931 where he did not drive a SSKL.

#56 is Hans Stuber (Bugatti T35C)
#32 is Marcel Lehoux (Bugatti T35B)
#16 is Bernhard Ackerl (Bugatti T37A)

#31 FRWL

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Posted 27 July 2004 - 23:44

Could you show me the full entry list, the grid and the race results for Monaco'31 GP?

By the way I have some information about this race from www.flyandrive.com and it seems that there is one mistake at least:

In 1930, the Bugattis are still very competitive and Louis Chiron remains loyal to the make from Molsheim. That year, however, he looses to a rising young driver, René dreyfus, with a privately owned Bugatti 35 B. The latter is going to give him a hard time during the Monaco Grand Prix 1931. For that event and under pressure of his son, Jean, Ettore Bugatti has produced the new type 51 model, equipped with a double overhead camshaft. With 16 Bugattis in a field of 23 cars, the Monaco Grand Prix in 1931 was pretty close to a single-brand race ! Among those 16 there are four factory-team 51-types driven by the Monegasque Louis Chiron, the italian Achille Varzi and the French Divo and Guy Bouriat. The real challenge comes from the Maseratis 8C 2500 driven by René Dreyfus, the Italian Luigi Fagioli and Clemente Bondietti. Rudolf Caracciola with his huge Mercedes

SSKL (Super Sport Short Light-Weight) doesn't stand a chance. The acronym is misleading, because the car is neither short nor light. It is oversized for the scenic Monaco ride. The victory will be fought for by the blue from Molsheim and the red from Modena.

René Dreyfus leads the attack of the Sainte Dévote climb, before being passed by Williams with a Bugatti and winner of the 1929 Grand Prix. Suddenly, a broken valve spring makes an end to the ride of the Brit. Achille Varzi and Caracciola start chasing René Dreyfus and Varzi manages to overtake the Frenchman in the 7th lap. Caracciola and his Mercedes get into serious problems and in the 53 rd lap its clutch gives way. Almost absent from the start, Louis Chiron finally displays his talent ; little by little he wins back lost ground and in doing so beats the lap record of 1930, like Luigi Fagioli a bit later. He catches up with all his opponents and leaves them behind. The native driver finishes the race some 5 minutes ahead. Jean Bugatti doesn't control his joy, jumps over the parapet of the bleachers and falls into Louis Chiron's arms. For the Monegasque, this victory really confirmed his reputation.

And some illustration :

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© B. Freudenthal

#32 Vitesse2

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Posted 27 July 2004 - 23:53

Originally posted by FRWL
Could you show me the full entry list, the grid and the race results for Monaco'31 GP?

http://www.teamdan.c...931.html#monaco

#33 FRWL

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Posted 28 July 2004 - 00:02

Thank you! There we can see that Rudi used SSKL :confused:

#34 T54

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Posted 28 July 2004 - 00:44

Note that one can still see the "Grande Corniche" on the background in 1929. Nowadays it is chockfull of cornichons... :(

:lol:

#35 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 28 July 2004 - 07:48

Originally posted by FRWL
Thank you! There we can see that Rudi used SSKL :confused:

Just because it is written down there and found also in some other books, does not necessarily mean that it was indeed a SSKL. There is nothing wrong to be skeptical at times.

The SSKL was raced for the first time by Caracciola at the Mille Miglia on April 12-13. The car at Monaco does not appear to be the same as raced in Italy the prior weekend and possibly was a specially prepped SSK. I doubt that Daimler-Benz, first: entered the MM car also at Monaco and second: had their second SSLK already for Caracciola's disposal to practice on April 16 at Monaco, meaning three days after the MM. Therefore I question that this car was a SSKL, as has been quoted in several sources. Another picture of Caracciola’s car would of course be helpful, showing the drilled out chassis sections. I have not yet seen such a picture.

#36 Michael Müller

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Posted 28 July 2004 - 07:51

I fully agree with Hans' argumentation. The 2 photos shown here really look like SSK only.

#37 GIGLEUX

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Posted 22 December 2004 - 20:30

Originally posted by Hans Etzrodt
Just because it is written down there and found also in some other books, does not necessarily mean that it was indeed a SSKL. There is nothing wrong to be skeptical at times.

The SSKL was raced for the first time by Caracciola at the Mille Miglia on April 12-13. The car at Monaco does not appear to be the same as raced in Italy the prior weekend and possibly was a specially prepped SSK. I doubt that Daimler-Benz, first: entered the MM car also at Monaco and second: had their second SSLK already for Caracciola's disposal to practice on April 16 at Monaco, meaning three days after the MM. Therefore I question that this car was a SSKL, as has been quoted in several sources. Another picture of Caracciola’s car would of course be helpful, showing the drilled out chassis sections. I have not yet seen such a picture.


Hans, now you have it!

Posted Image

So, SSK or SSKL? Back of the frame is drilled after all...

#38 Michael Müller

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Posted 22 December 2004 - 21:10

Yes. And in fact it seems to be the Mille Miglia car with the red wheels and the frontal area of the drilled frame covered by this mysterious sheet.

#39 Mike Riedner

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Posted 22 December 2004 - 21:55

But why should they have covered the drilled holes with a "mysterious sheet"? To put more weight on the car for a GP?? :confused:

And could the wheels not be black instead of red? Hard to tell from a B&W photo! :

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#40 Michael Müller

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Posted 22 December 2004 - 22:06

http://forums.atlasf...&threadid=62608

Posted Image

And how do we know that the racing numbers had been red? About the red wheels, I'm sure Rückwarth knows the answer. And also about these sheets, he told me 20 years ago, but frankly spoken I do not remember the details.

#41 GIGLEUX

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Posted 22 December 2004 - 22:09

Originally posted by Mike Riedner
But why should they have covered the drilled holes with a "mysterious sheet"? To put more weight on the car for a GP?? :

It was longly discussed here:

http://forums.atlasf...y=&pagenumber=1

#42 Mike Riedner

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Posted 22 December 2004 - 22:29

Perfect. Thanks. :up:

When you look at my entry date into this forum you will understand that I have not yet read all the threads...

Will take some weeks I guess.

#43 VAR1016

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Posted 22 December 2004 - 23:07

Is No 5 Peter Collins?

PdeRL

#44 GIGLEUX

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Posted 22 December 2004 - 23:13

Originally posted by VAR1016
Is No 5 Peter Collins?

PdeRL

Of course no! it's Willy Mairesse 1960 Belgium GP.

#45 Ray Bell

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Posted 22 December 2004 - 23:15

Originally posted by Mike Riedner
.....When you look at my entry date into this forum you will understand that I have not yet read all the threads...

Will take some weeks I guess.


Undoubtedly... over 200,000 posts, 11,000 threads.

#46 VAR1016

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Posted 22 December 2004 - 23:27

Originally posted by GIGLEUX

Of course no! it's Willy Mairesse 1960 Belgium GP.


Thank you. Looks like him though.

PdeRL

#47 bill moffat

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Posted 22 December 2004 - 23:51

Anyone familiar with the work of Alfredo de la Maria will no doubt have seen his rendition of the first corner at Monaco in 1931. His painting depicts Caracciola's "SSKL" hounding Chiron's Bugatti through Ste Devote.

I have a gorgeous print of this painting, for what it's worth the Merc's wheels are red and the racing number greyish/black..Artistic licence may be but I guess he must have researched things...

#48 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 23 December 2004 - 17:10

Originally posted by GIGLEUX


Hans, now you have it!

Posted Image

So, SSK or SSKL? Back of the frame is drilled after all...

Jean-Maurice – looking more careful at the low resolution picture from DCN's collection it appears to be a SSKL because the drilled out holes can just be made out at the main frame in front of the L/R wheel and the front frame ahead of the front axle shows white dots as holes. Your latest picture is now the final proof that the Monaco car was a SSKL.

By logic you could also make an educated guess that it should have been one and the same car for the Mille Miglia and the Monaco Grand Prix, because Daimler-Benz, already on a very tight budget, could not provide 2 cars for Caracciola's semi-private racing effort. But I cannot find supporting proof for this argument. Günther Molter's 1995 book on Caracciola does not mention the 1931 Monaco GP. None of the older Caracciola books refer to this race and Alfred Neubauer's book only states in very few words that Caracciola retired in this race. AUTOMOBIL-REVUE writes in 1931 that Caracciola retired after 50 laps while in third place. No further details about Caracciola's car. David Hodges reports on p33 in his 1964 book "The MONACO Grand Prix" that: ..."Caracciola, who had driven this [SSKL] light version of the SSK so successfully in its Mille Miglia debut the week earlier, was present, his car stripped of wings, lights, ect..."

#49 GIGLEUX

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Posted 23 December 2004 - 17:19

Thank you Hans.