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Merged: Rotary Damper/Ferrari's Revolutionary Damper?


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#1 desmo

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Posted 17 June 2003 - 19:32

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This is from the latest Autosprint and shows the new Sachs rotary dampers fitted to the F2003-GA for Monaco. Very reminiscent of the old lever dampers fitted to some pre WW2 racers, the name "Houdaille" comes to mind though I've probably got that wrong. A much neater looking installation than the recent method of mounting the semi-conventional through-shaft telescopic dampers in 'tunnels' in the gearbox case I'd say. Not sure what other advantages might be had form this arrangement. Better cooling for more consistant damping performance perhaps.

Also note the use of air apparently cooled by the fuel pressure regulator feeding the central FI rail to cool the transverse third damper.

Are there any readers fluent or semi-fluent in Italian who can comment further on the text here?

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#2 IKE

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Posted 18 June 2003 - 08:35

Hello, this is my first post :)

This reminds me very much of the rotary dumper fitted in the Suzuki TL1000S/R (which itself is a descendant of an old ohlins patent -EP0725004-).
For me this is much an improvement of a telescopic one , it can be customized to very specific demands and it has a lot less stiction than a telescopic.
However in this drawing although it has no dimensions the rotary dumper seems extraordinarily small, the suzuki's which was similar in concept seems much larger.
Unfortunatelly I don't know any italian, maybe someone who does can help with the details

#3 jpf

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Posted 18 June 2003 - 17:20

Well my Italian sucks but it seems to indicate that the exposed nut or screw at (5), connected to the damper/bellcrank assembly can be used to adjust the rear ride height. ("facilmente dall'esterno per variare l'altezza da terra"). If so, that is quite a nifty trick, huh? Even easier than adjusting those shims in the pushrods.

#4 Double Apex

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Posted 18 June 2003 - 17:55

There's also a nice pic of it over here:

http://www.news-pub....s/r7/060105.jpg

And more or less the same article is also in the latest Autosport issue. I just looked at it in the bookstore at the station but had to run to catch my train so didn't get to read much of it :)

Anyway JPF is right about the ride height ajustment. I can't really figure out how that would work though, so I'm kinda wondering if Piola is right :confused:

#5 desmo

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Posted 18 June 2003 - 18:21

My take on the captioning text was also that (5) was a ride-height adjustment as well in a sense. The ride height looks like it can be altered either by replacing the metal spacers between the pushrods and their ends or using the adjuster (5) indirectly by adjusting the preload on the torsion bar springs. This could easily be accomplished by simply putting an "ear" on the forward end of the torsion bar and using a bolt or the like (5) that contacts the ear to adjust the preload. Adjusting spring preload is a commonly used means of adjusting ride heights, but of course spring preload changes do more than simply alter the ride height.

#6 Double Apex

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Posted 18 June 2003 - 18:31

Thanks for clearing that up, Desmo :up:

#7 cheesy poofs

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Posted 18 June 2003 - 18:44

This might well explain why Ross Brawn showed the Ferrari's rear-end suspension at Indy last year. They couldn't care less 'cause they were working on something much more interesting.

#8 Ray Bell

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Posted 18 June 2003 - 22:06

There isn't enough detail to see exactly what they're aiming at here...

Is it a new springing medium as well?

#9 desmo

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Posted 18 June 2003 - 23:18

No, the springs are simply torsion bars- probably steel- (4) mounted axially to the rockers.

#10 Hellenic tifosi

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Posted 18 June 2003 - 23:34

However, the third damper seems to be conventional, and the spring must be a normal coil spring isnt't it? The fact that it is contained in a boot doesn't help much...

#11 desmo

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Posted 19 June 2003 - 00:19

The third spring/damper appears to use a stack of Belleville washers as its spring. Look at the photo linked to above: http://www.news-pub....s/r7/060105.jpg My personal surmise is that these are used to provide an easily tunable positionally sensitive spring rate.

#12 cheesy poofs

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Posted 19 June 2003 - 01:38

It aslo mentions that the resulting work is a much tidier packaging of the spring/damper elements resulting in a 15-20% weight gain. The whole gearbox assembly is made out of titanium. The Sachs dampers ( called S achs R otation S hocks ) are made exclusively for the F2003GA. As previously by desmo, the third damper ( 3 ) is attached to a cylinder which is cooled via the airbox.

#13 exg

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Posted 19 June 2003 - 02:14

Here is another link to check out. Different view from the other side. Great stuff!

http://www.news-pub..../r6/051605L.jpg

#14 exg

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Posted 19 June 2003 - 02:31

Not really off topic, but here is a link to other great pics:

http://www.news-pub....d/sawada/gprpt/


Especially these:

http://www.news-pub..../r5/050209L.jpg

http://www.news-pub..../r5/050208L.jpg

Ok Desmo, tell us what we're looking at!

#15 marion5drsn

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Posted 19 June 2003 - 03:22

In with the old and out with the new!

If I remember correctly the reason why Houdaille" (Hoo dye) dampers (shocks) are considered superior by some midget mechanics is the progressive force damping due to the angular displacement of the rotating arm. Some mechanics still use them for that reason. There is still a man in Iowa I believe who still reworks them for this usage to this day. I have often wondered just how he gets parts, makes them I guess. The last usage of them was on Fords around 1948 I think. M.L. Anderson

http://www.applehydr...m/houdaille.htm

http://www.geocities...1205/hhist.html

#16 Ray Bell

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Posted 19 June 2003 - 04:28

I thought Fords were into telescopic stuff during or even before the war?

Chrysler was, IIRC, leaving GM, Nash and all those minor players still with lever action things... and this effect was also achieved by Chapman and others with rising rate geometry.

#17 MRC

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Posted 19 June 2003 - 06:04

Interesting stuff.

Exg, I found this picture you posted particuliarly intersting;

http://www.news-pub..../r5/050209L.jpg


It's nice to see the engine heat shield blending right in (possibly one piece?) right into the side gearbox cover/shield (painted red). Looks like they are really trying to get the smoothest flow possible after the radiator. The gold foil on one portion of the radiator tube is interesting. It looks like the gold foil that is there, is to keep the heat out of the that pipe (and that it's likely the return pipe).

#18 Mickey

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Posted 19 June 2003 - 13:25

Here is my translation of the Piola article. As usual, please excuse my total lack of technical knowledge, and the fact that I don't have an English-Italian technical dictionary...



The dampers become rotary

The magic of Monte Carlo, with open single seaters finally analyzeable in every tiny detail, has happened again: the effort to hide the rear of the F2003-GA in a sort of makeshift garage aptly set up by the mechanics has proved fruitless. They even avoided changing the engines before qualifying, since this operation would have needed to take place in front of everyone, and at Monaco there's plenty of techicians with digital cameras from various teams' racing departments camouflaged as turists, even if some of them are easily recognizeable by their backpacks marked with their travel agent's name and city of origin.

Rumours that the F2003-GA had a previously unseen scheme of rear suspension leaked before the GP, but the error of letting the news break with a simple description and without a drawing that could properly illustrate it had to be avoided. A bit like it happened last year with the famous "step in the side channels of the extracting profile" (uhu?): from the moment of the discovery in Brazil to the actual construction, 4 GPs went by, with the drawings coming out only after the Canadian GP.

This time it has been easier also because the previously unseen suspension was more easily visible, but mainly because, having noticed the number of other teams' technicians around the rear of the car, it was clear that the new element was a secret only for journalists.

Now, with the aid of a drawing, we are able to illustrate the previously unseen scheme of the real suspension. At first glance it seems that there are no dampers, also because the places where they should be in are empty. The original design entailed a suspension deriving from the F2002's, with the central dampers inside the gearbox titanium casting, like that of Minardi, who have been leading in this sector for the last 2 years.

The dampers, made by Sachs exclusively for Ferrari for the entire 2003 season, are built in a single piece with the suspension rocker arms and are practically hidden from being seen by the pushrods. They are rotary dampers with the official name of SRS (Sachs Rotation Shocks), and their movement is obviously rotary rather than telescopic, controlled by some small idraulic compartments. The rotary dampers are not a complete novelty: they have been around for years on certain lorries and military vehicles, and even in MotoGP Suzuki have tried a similar solution but without great results.

The greatest advantage in using them is the reduced space they occupy, the famous packaging that allows a cleaner and more space-efficient suspensions scheme. They are made in titanium and allow some good weight savings: it is estimated at about 15-20% less compared to conventional dampers. It has taken a long time to build them in order to overcome construction difficulties (and for this reason the gearbox on the F2003-GA was built with holes for the classic dampers), they are obviously a lot more expensive compared to the other dampers and the team is equipped with 3 separate sets for each race.

Among the advantages given by this new system there is some reduced friction and reduced sensitivity to heat (the drawing shows that the 3rd transversal damper needs cooling against high temperatures). These mini-dampers contain on their inside the place for torsion bars, allowing for a simpler suspension design and a saving on weight of over 300 grammes on the total rear suspension scheme.

The exclusive deal with Ferrari lasts only until the end of the 2003 season, and you can bet that other teams' technical departments are already developing their own, similar solution of rear suspensions with rotary dampers.

Giorgio Piola



THE CAPTION:

The F2003-GA's rear suspension hides a complete novelty: the use of a rotary damper built together with SACHS. It is a single body (1) with the suspension rocker arm, and it includes the torsion bars as shown in yellow with number (4). The bars are placed from the rear side and are stopped in front by another rocker arm (5) that can easily be manipulated to make changes to the ride height. This damper takes the place of the telescopic one, placed almost verically (see the dashed line) inside the titanium casting in two openings (2). The 3rd transversal damper (3) is unchanged, cooled by a channelling (6) that gets its air from the engine opening. In the circle you can see a detail of the damper with 2 small gas containers, half-hidden by the rocker arm (in yellow).


#19 Hellenic tifosi

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Posted 19 June 2003 - 20:10

Thanks a lot for the translation. :up:

Can someone explain what exactly are Belleville washers?

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#20 desmo

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Posted 19 June 2003 - 21:03

Mickey, thanks for the translation! :up: :up: I can usually get the gist of the text in any of the Romance languages, but I always wonder if I missed something. I think "extracting profile" can be translated as diffuser. Technical terms are the hardest to translate as standard dictionaries don't contain most of them. I believe theSAE has a translating CD for technical terms, but it is quite expensive.

Belleville Washers

#21 Hellenic tifosi

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Posted 19 June 2003 - 21:17

Thanks a lot desmo. I have some problems with the terminology, because it turned out that I already knew the basics.

In any case, :up: .

#22 marion5drsn

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 00:46

Ray Bell;
Go to the addresses I list and check them out . I had previously put in 1938 but he claims 1948?
Also read how dangerous it is to take them apart! M.L. Anderson :D

#23 marion5drsn

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 00:52

go here for Belleville washers.
http://www.rctek.com...le_washers.html

M.L. Anderson :)

#24 Mickey

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 08:22

Originally posted by desmo
Mickey, thanks for the translation! :up: :up: I can usually get the gist of the text in any of the Romance languages, but I always wonder if I missed something. I think "extracting profile" can be translated as diffuser. Technical terms are the hardest to translate as standard dictionaries don't contain most of them. I believe theSAE has a translating CD for technical terms, but it is quite expensive.

Belleville Washers


Desmo,

While trying to translate some terms used in the article, I found this page, with a table of motoring terms in a few languages.

Not sure how reliable it is, but it may turn out to be useful at other times too.

Ciao :)

#25 Ray Bell

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 09:43

Originally posted by marion5drsn
Go to the addresses I list and check them out . I had previously put in 1938 but he claims 1948?
Also read how dangerous it is to take them apart! M.L. Anderson :D


They quote part numbers and all up to 1948, it's hard to argue against that! Unless they are aftermarket replacements for worn out Monroes?

This puts a whole new outlook on my understanding of the Maurie Maurice Chrysler Special...

#26 Deepak

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Posted 28 July 2004 - 16:16

http://www.tifosi-cl...f6215f946dd7229

This article explains a revolutinary damper system developed for the rear suspension for the F2003-GA and continued till date by Ferrari and Sachs.

#27 indigoid

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Posted 28 July 2004 - 16:32

hasn't this come up before? ISTR it not being a Ferrari/Sachs invention at all

#28 ViMaMo

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Posted 28 July 2004 - 17:49

it was shown in SpeedTV on one of the GP weekends recently, and Ross pointed out to these dampers in the back. The whole car was stripped of body work... looked awesome. :)

#29 Powersteer

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Posted 29 July 2004 - 18:11

Mickey is king.

:cool:

#30 karlg

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Posted 02 August 2004 - 17:25

just a nice picture showing the ferrari rotation dampers

(sachs fabricated a nice demonsration model)


http://www.f1welt.co...725_013_450.jpg


I would appreciate if some of our more technical guys could add some explanations.



Just in case you would like to know how the front once look like

http://www.f1welt.co...725_014_450.jpg


looking forward to see your replies

#31 Greg Locock

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Posted 02 August 2004 - 23:43

Hmm. Revolutionary like,say lever arm shocks as fitted to early postwar MGs?

http://mywebpages.co...odes/shock.html

for a cutaway.

#32 Ben

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Posted 03 August 2004 - 00:05

This reminds me of that silly little incident wherebya load of journos (and posters here) thought it neccesery to call the 2004 Williams 'revolutionary' or 'innovative'.

A rotary damper is in no way innovative either. Yes it happens to be particularly well designed and manufactured (most things by Sachs are) but it is not a new concept. Although again I suspect some Ferrari engineers could happily piss in a bucket and have it called art.

Ben

#33 desmo

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Posted 03 August 2004 - 04:50

Originally posted by Greg Locock
Hmm. Revolutionary like,say lever arm shocks as fitted to early postwar MGs?

http://mywebpages.co...odes/shock.html

Hey, I pointed out the similarity to old lever dampers ages ago in this thread! :lol: In fact judging by drawings of the similar looking Ohlins/Suzuki (Kayaba?) design, I suspect the modern Sachs version is a similar- albeit with much improved valving and materials no doubt- in general concept to the old Houdaille/vane-type lever dampers, which appear (link) even more similar to the Sachs units than the dampers fitted to the MGs. Not revolutionary to be sure, but a very tidy package in the Ferrari still.

It is likely frequently useful to take a look at old "obsolete" designs that might have new life given some "modern tech" improvements. A lot of very clever people spent a lot of time coming up with and developing the designs seen in the "days of yore".

#34 Greg Locock

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Posted 03 August 2004 - 08:02

Oops, sorry Desmo. Oh, you were right about Houdaille http://www.applehydr....com/shocks.htm

for some photos of some very ugly units!