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'Fórmula Uno Nacional' - the amazing Argentine Formula One


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#51 Repco von Brabham

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Posted 23 December 2004 - 03:50

Originally posted by tompka
Hi All!

I used to lurk this forum for years, but don't often post.
I received this photo from one of my friends on a Hungarian forum to track it down. He says it's Miguel Angel Guerra's car (well some of it) after an accident at Rafaela in 1977. Could you confirm this identification?

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Foto credits: unknown


YES.

Miguel Angel Guerra, crash in Rafaela 500 miles oval superspeedway..

I WAS THERE!

The car was a Berta-Torino 4 litres six cilynders, 385 hp.

bye

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#52 tompka

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Posted 23 December 2004 - 11:03

Thank you!

This cleared up matters a bit.
Do you have a picture of this car, or another Berta-Torino? I would like to see such car in its original unbent shape.

#53 jadb1

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Posted 24 December 2004 - 04:15

Tompka

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Berta Torino Miguel Anguel Guerra year 1977
imagen de Eduardo www.Thef1.com/foro/historia


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This is the photo of Torino 380 ahi is appraised the engine that used
Formula 1 Argentine

http://www.porsche91..._Stewart_01.JPG


Greetings Alejandro


#54 Repco von Brabham

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Posted 24 December 2004 - 22:27

Originally posted by jadb1


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This is the photo of Torino 380 ahi is appraised the engine that used
Formula 1 Argentine


IS WRONG.

Alex, your picture shows a TORNADO "4 bancadas" engine.., IS NOT a TORINO engine.

I explain:

Between 1967 to 1972, the Torino 380 car was equipped with a Tornado engine.
From 1972 to 1982, this car supplied with a better TORINO 7 Bancadas engine, a very much evolucionate versiòn, and more ligth weigth., with very much better cram shaft and cilynders top head.


LOOK THE CRASH PICTURE:

Clearly the image shows a TORINO engine.. was not a old Tornado.

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#55 jadb1

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Posted 27 December 2004 - 14:31

Drawing Engine TORINO corresponding to the Berta-Torino

Greetings
Alejandro

PD Enrique info the wise person but nontapeworm these
photos


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#56 Repco von Brabham

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Posted 13 July 2005 - 03:30

Believe or not.., the series is alive today..!!

Look the beautiful car and this engine.

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#57 NRN

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Posted 31 July 2005 - 22:19

I've decided to start a thread in the Spanish Forum covering the entire MAF1 1970 season, race by race. If you want to see a couple of new old photos, drop by! :)

http://www.thef1.com...opic.php?t=1900

Hopefully, a detailed analysis of more seasons will follow....

Thanks
Néstor

#58 Allen Brown

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Posted 01 August 2005 - 20:43

An excellent idea :clap: :clap: :clap:

#59 NRN

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Posted 14 August 2005 - 19:28

Just a short post to tell you that the Argentinian F1 History thread is now at

http://foro-gratis.l...tohistoria.html

Thanks
Néstor

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#60 jadb1

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Posted 15 August 2005 - 01:24

Nestor : :wave: :wave: :wave: :wave: :wave: :wave: :wave: :wave: :wave: :wave: :wave:
Aca tambien estas?????? un abrazo
Saludos Alejandro


#61 macoran

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Posted 18 April 2006 - 11:05

Originally posted by jadb1
Drawing Engine TORINO corresponding to the Berta-Torino

Greetings
Alejandro

PD Enrique info the wise person but nontapeworm these
photos


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In the Statistics on post 24 I find the following:

-- all results with the Tornado engine show the addition =AMC Rambler

-- the 1977 results show the Torino engined cars ...also with = AMC Rambler added.

Torino seems to me to be a "very" Ford name..... would the Torino be based on
the Falcon engine produced in Argentina ??

what's up ? is it AMC for both ?

#62 Allen Brown

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Posted 18 April 2006 - 13:20

That's what I would have thought but apparently the Torino was an IKA car based on the AMC Rambler. Try this URL: http://www.geocities.com/cupetorino/

There's not much here on the engine but it was presumably produced by IKA in Argentina, not by AMC in the US, as it was eligible for Argentinian touring car racing.

EDIT: also this history (http://www.ramblerro...com/torino2.htm) makes it clear when the engine inside the IKA Torino changed from the "Tornado" to the "Torino" in 1973; although the new engine appears to have been a development of the older one.

Allen

#63 macoran

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Posted 18 April 2006 - 16:20

Originally posted by Allen Brown

EDIT: also this history (http://www.ramblerro...com/torino2.htm) makes it clear when the engine inside the IKA Torino changed from the "Tornado" to the "Torino" in 1973; although the new engine appears to have been a development of the older one.

Allen [/B]


I think above part of post explains most of it.

The "Versailles" was a V8 engined Renault marketed in Europe by Renault an d Ford I think.
I even think the Rotterdam car factory at Sluisjesdijk built some.

So I can understand IKA in Argentina being allowed to use the "Torino" name

wonder if Oldsmobile (GM) had something to do with the name change ?

thanks Allen

#64 Repco von Brabham

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Posted 05 August 2007 - 21:25

Hello!!

Please, look this beautiful video of a F1 car Bravi-Ford six cilynders..,

Look this 3 Webers twin, feel this sublimeous sound..!

http://es.youtube.co...h?v=KN34aM40o8k

Nice... :cool:

#65 macoran

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Posted 05 August 2007 - 21:37

Originally posted by Repco von Brabham
Hello!!

Please, look this beautiful video of a F1 car Bravi-Ford six cilynders..,

Look this 3 Webers twin, feel this sublimeous sound..!

http://es.youtube.co...h?v=KN34aM40o8k

Nice... :cool:


Love to hear it at full blast !

#66 antonvrs

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Posted 06 August 2007 - 17:21

This is a very interesting thread. I would love to know more about the engines used.
IIRC, the "Tornado" was a sohc six used in Jeep Chreokees in the US in the early sixties. I always thought this engine had possibilities with it's crossflow head but there was no place for it in the US.
The Dodge engine appears, in the few pics where I can see it, to be the early fifties 240 ci "Hemi". This engine is a kind of miniature Chrysler and was considered to be too heavy for hotrodders here in the US. Why bother with a 240 ci Dodge when you could have an Oldsmobile or Cadillac with more displacement and less weight?
I understand that the 4 litre displacement limit had a lot to do with it but it's still surprising that the Chevy didn't take over by the seventies.
What were the regulations regarding engines and what fuel was used?
Anton

#67 Repco von Brabham

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Posted 06 August 2007 - 23:34

My father, Manuel Benamo, run this car Benamo-Pontiac Tempest, in 1967

The car was designed and builded by my uncle Enrique Benamo Senior., the engine was a Pontiac Tempest V8 with 400 HP., but the engine was very heavy, and very large, that things result in a very heavy car., and the powerful and heavy engine damaged the chassis.,

Later, my father change the Pontiac engine by a ligth Chevrolet 230 cune inch
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#68 Repco von Brabham

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Posted 08 August 2007 - 00:00

Look the gearbox Hewland FG400 in this F1 car, a Albizu-Dodge six cilynders, 223 cune inch

Season 1970

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This is a rare example, is a Berta F1 but with Chrysler V8 engine.... Season 1975
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This is the BOSS:
The Berta F1-Tornado OHC, 230 cune inch overhead cam, 370 HP, season 1971.
The engine work like structural piece, same thing like a Lotus 72

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#69 macoran

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Posted 08 August 2007 - 13:59

Repco.......Is there still some form of Argentine F1 today?

I very much enjoyed the history of the MAF series you once posted on a Spanish language site.

#70 Repco von Brabham

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Posted 10 August 2007 - 03:02

Jorge Ternengo drive also this F1 car Bravi-Tornado, beside the regular Berta car

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The local factory Chrysler Argentina Corp. invest much money in his own F1 team., the cars "Albizu" was designed by the engineer Pedro Albizu.

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THE LAST BOSS:
After 1974 season, the Pianetto's F1 cars ended with the Berta Kingdom in the F1.

In the picture, Ángel Monguzzi won the legendary "500 Miles de Rafaela", with the fantastic Pianetto-DodgeV8
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#71 ghinzani

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Posted 11 August 2007 - 20:16

Originally posted by Repco von Brabham
Hello!!

Please, look this beautiful video of a F1 car Bravi-Ford six cilynders..,

Look this 3 Webers twin, feel this sublimeous sound..!

http://es.youtube.co...h?v=KN34aM40o8k

Nice... :cool:


Enrique - thankyou for bringing this to an english speaking forum I for one would have struggled with the spanish version!

I noticed you drove a Crespi it said earlier in this thread - I worked with Ing Crespis son Luciano when he did Formula Ford in Europe and he was a really fine chap, with a great love of racing passed down to him by his Father. Did Crespi make cars for Codasur? I would love to see a thread on the F2 cars, when you ever get time. :up:

#72 Repco von Brabham

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Posted 18 August 2007 - 04:23

Originally posted by ghinzani


Enrique - thankyou for bringing this to an english speaking forum I for one would have struggled with the spanish version!

I noticed you drove a Crespi it said earlier in this thread - I worked with Ing Crespis son Luciano when he did Formula Ford in Europe and he was a really fine chap, with a great love of racing passed down to him by his Father. Did Crespi make cars for Codasur? I would love to see a thread on the F2 cars, when you ever get time. :up:


About the Crespi cars in the Argentine F1:

Nasif Estéfano with Crespi-Tornado, in Mendoza racetrack, Season 1969 .

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#73 Repco von Brabham

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Posted 18 August 2007 - 04:32

The heavy guys:

Luis Di Palma - Berta B3-Tornado - Season 1974

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In this pictures, the first test of the Campo-Chevrolet, Mauricio García driver.

The car was builded by Pedro Campo, for the General Motors F1 Team, "inspired" in the Lola F-5000.

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#74 macoran

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Posted 18 August 2007 - 11:25

Originally posted by Repco von Brabham
The heavy guys:

Luis Di Palma - Berta B3-Tornado - Season 1974

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Am I correct in thinking that the B3 design was the same chassis as the one Berta
used for his experimental F1 car ?

#75 Repco von Brabham

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Posted 20 August 2007 - 02:45

Am I correct in thinking that the B3 design was the same chassis as the one Berta
used for his experimental F1 car
?



Dear Marc:


The Berta F1 V8 had a alluminiun chasis, with a multitubular tissue of steel pipes.

When reverted to F5000 specification it did twice race in 1975, the first time in the hands of experienced Argentine racer Ruben Luis di Palma, who retired at Laguna Seca. The second time - and this is one of those strange factoids you keep wondering about - the Berta F5000 was the car which gave a certain Rick Mears his first open-wheel drive. And even more sensational., before retiring he led the race in it! ...:clap:

Rick Mears with the Berta F5000, in Laguna Seca racetrack..
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#76 Allen Brown

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Posted 20 August 2007 - 08:04

Originally posted by Repco von Brabham
When reverted to F5000 specification it did twice race in 1975, the first time in the hands of experienced Argentine racer Ruben Luis di Palma, who retired at Laguna Seca. The second time - and this is one of those strange factoids you keep wondering about - the Berta F5000 was the car which gave a certain Rick Mears his first open-wheel drive. And even more sensational., before retiring he led the race in it!

This second race was a SCCA National or Regional and I've never found records of it. The story goes that Mears went off at the first corner. The team mechanic recalls the race but reckons Mears was driving the team's Lola and had only tried the Berta in practice. Nobody has been able to approximate the date.

This episode in the car's history remains a mystery.

Allen

#77 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 20 August 2007 - 09:45

This is just the kind of thread that makes TNF so facinating - I have never heard of this series before, the cars look amazing and I only wish we could hear what these monsters sounded like in full cry!

#78 macoran

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Posted 20 August 2007 - 18:20

Originally posted by simonlewisbooks
This is just the kind of thread that makes TNF so facinating - I have never heard of this series before, the cars look amazing and I only wish we could hear what these monsters sounded like in full cry!


You must ask Repco for the link to the Spanish Forum, there is a complete history of all the events.
It intriqued me no end .
I admit I downloaded and saved everything a few years ago, but it is on a different hard drive, and as
none of you know what my attic looks like !.....you are left to wonder.

#79 Repco von Brabham

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Posted 22 August 2007 - 00:07

Originally posted by Allen Brown
This second race was a SCCA National or Regional and I've never found records of it. The story goes that Mears went off at the first corner. The team mechanic recalls the race but reckons Mears was driving the team's Lola and had only tried the Berta in practice. Nobody has been able to approximate the date.

This episode in the car's history remains a mystery.

Allen


Dear míster Brown:

You are shotdown in flames.., all the information over the Berta-Rick Mears affaire in F5000, is come from míster Oreste Berta herself, who is my good friend and also he was my boss in the legendary Berta Dodge Team of the Argentine F2, in 1979..., and Luis Di Palma was my best friend and partner... (he past away six years ago).

Mattijs Diepraam wrote a good sintesis over this bussines, in Forix... "The Grand Prix car Argentina almost had".,

best regards

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#80 David McKinney

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Posted 22 August 2007 - 05:50

Any reason why Oreste Berta's memory should be more reliable than the team mechanic's?

#81 Repco von Brabham

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Posted 22 August 2007 - 23:24

Originally posted by simonlewisbooks
This is just the kind of thread that makes TNF so facinating - I have never heard of this series before, the cars look amazing and I only wish we could hear what these monsters sounded like in full cry!


Look this beautiful cars..!!

Buenos Aires 1974 - Carlos Marincovich (Campo-Chevrolet #33) and Luis Di Palma (Berta-Tornado #2) overtaking both to Enzo Sala with Bravi-Tornado #32 car:

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#82 Arturo Pereira

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Posted 23 August 2007 - 00:24

Unfortunately, Formula Uno Nacional, even if an effort that deserved a better destiny, was a sounding failure, as many projects here. By those dark years, we even lost F1 GPs, and by 1974 we were closer to a civil war that we ever thought. Berta´s projects never received the proper funding and, since he never was involved in politics, everything was lost, except Berta´s intelligence, fortunately.

On the other hand, the masses preferred Turismo Carretera over any open wheelers. It was close to a miracle that Carlos Reutemann had his chances by then. More than 30 years after F1 Nacional vanished, there isn´t a replacement yet here.

#83 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 23 August 2007 - 08:21

Originally posted by Arturo Pereira

On the other hand, the masses preferred Turismo Carretera over any open wheelers.

This comment can also be applied to the USA and Australia of course . It's ironic that the US, Oz and Argentina all have such a rich single-seater heritage of major events going back generations, numerous world famous drivers and many great cars (admittedly somewhat fewer cars in the case of Argentina) yet NASCAR and Touring Cars have long held the high ground for the masses.

#84 Arturo Pereira

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Posted 23 August 2007 - 10:27

Hi Simon :)

Turismo Carretera is not what I would call Touring Cars. I would say it´s NASCAR without ovals, if this could be possible.

#85 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 23 August 2007 - 10:43

Originally posted by Arturo Pereira
Hi Simon :)

Turismo Carretera is not what I would call Touring Cars. I would say it´s NASCAR without ovals, if this could be possible.


I know exactly what you mean Arturo , a good description :)

#86 biercemountain

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Posted 23 August 2007 - 21:15

This thread is great. I love the variety of machinery (all of which is completely new to me). Kind of reminds me of Indy cars in the 70's, what with all the different types of chassis. :up:

#87 Repco von Brabham

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Posted 24 August 2007 - 00:37

Gran Premio de Buenos Aires 1974

Angel Monguzzi with the Pianetto-Chrysler V8 352 cune inches, works of Chrysler Corp.

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#88 Repco von Brabham

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Posted 25 August 2007 - 01:30

Look the tacometer in the cokpit of this Bravi-Ford six cilynders..!!

http://es.youtube.co...h?v=IvecSWnTThU

:clap: :clap:

#89 Repco von Brabham

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Posted 25 August 2007 - 18:47

December, 1972, in the Autódromo Municipal

Test of new F1 car, the Berta MkI with laterals radiators inside the pontons.
with a new Tornado OHC seven "bancadas" (new and ligth shaft).

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#90 Repco von Brabham

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Posted 25 August 2007 - 23:06

One group of friends re-builded this F1 car -a Bravi Tornado OHC- in tribute for his original driver, Daniel Sancho.
Mr Sancho was the equivalente of Stirling Moss in our F1 Nacional.., he never can to be a Champion, but won many many races.
Look this garrison car!

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#91 Repco von Brabham

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Posted 26 August 2007 - 00:17

Omar Mura Curvetino - Albizu Dodge - Buenos Aires 1970

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#92 Repco von Brabham

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Posted 26 August 2007 - 20:24

December, 1972.

The F1 car Bravi-Chevrolet 250", driver Mauricio García.

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#93 Repco von Brabham

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Posted 26 August 2007 - 22:01

Another beautiful car:

The Requejo-Dodge V8

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#94 Repco von Brabham

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Posted 30 September 2007 - 22:01

This, is the only one Mc Laren car what was in our F1 Championship:
The car was a model for the F-5000., Vicente Formisano buy the car, for the Ford team Argentina, and he make some little modifications in the car.

The driver is Osvaldo López, in 1973,

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#95 Allen Brown

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Posted 30 September 2007 - 22:09

That's a McLaren?!?

What sort of McLaren?

#96 Repco von Brabham

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Posted 30 September 2007 - 22:11

Originally posted by Allen Brown
That's a McLaren?!?

What sort of McLaren?


picaste rápido...,

:cool:

#97 Repco von Brabham

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Posted 27 October 2007 - 22:33

The real Magician

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#98 Mekola

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Posted 04 November 2007 - 01:09

Originally posted by macoran
Repco.......Is there still some form of Argentine F1 today?


Yes, it is. Since 1980, Argentine F1 survives as a Regional series.
Now they're susbscribed to inner tracks of the province of Buenos Aires, mainly Dolores.
Old Argentine F1 racers Orlando Sotro and (occasionally) Norberto Pauloni are still present, exceptionally in the case of Sotro who is an active racer despite he's 75 yrs old!
Other notable thing to mention is that members from an industrial high school from Temperley are competing on the series; even they're racing with a car built on their own (Borella-Tornado).

Unfortunately, part of data from the Regional years of the series are lost; secretary of the series Héctor Rusciano tried to collect the most data possible, that could be seen on the series website.
This year (2007) Argentine F1 did only two races, but they're working "a pulmone" to go stronger in the future.

See their website at : http://www.f1-competicion.com.ar

#99 macoran

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Posted 04 November 2007 - 01:24

:up: Mekola, I'll be busy studying tonight :D

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#100 Arturo Pereira

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Posted 04 November 2007 - 03:01

Thank you very much Mecola !!! As macoran says :)