Can anyone shed some light on the accident that killed the great Pedro Rodriguez, as there seems to be very little information about it. Aside from the mainstraight, the Norisring seems a 'relatively' tight/slow circuit - from what I understand Rodriguez crashed the 512 at the lone righthander, after the hairpin, which doesn't seem terribly fast. Is anyone aware whether the accident was survivable if the fire had not occured - was the marshalling effective, etc? Thanks...
Rodriguez's accident at the Norisring...
Started by
TecnoRacing
, Aug 09 2004 01:37
116 replies to this topic
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#2
Buford
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Posted 09 August 2004 - 06:54
I didn't get it on tape but I saw it once. It was on a George Plimpton special on auto racing and I tuned in half way through. Shortly after it came on, they showed the car spinning down the road totally engulfed in flames. It didn't look surviveable.
#3
Rob Ryder
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#4
Manfred Cubenoggin
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Posted 09 August 2004 - 12:15
Well, now I'm really confused. I recall seeing a short snipit of video showing Pedro's 512 inverted on a section of Armco, resting at an angle of about 20 degrees or so with the front end high. The car was not on fire. The clip was very short and did not show any fire. I can only think that the portion aired was edited by the broadcaster to avoid showing a blaze errupting and engulfing the Ferrari.
In an article in Road & Track which was published probably within a year or so of this terrible event, they featured Graham Hill attempting to set some speed records at Bonneville in a Ferrari 512. I recall a passage wherein the mechanics mentioned that Pedro could not escape the overturned Ferrari when his legs got caught up in the gubbins in behind the dash.
On this sad day, I was competing in one of my very first speed events at a slalom in the parking lot at York University north of Toronto. My buddy, Nick, accompanied me to the event. At one point, I wandered around to the back part of the lot to watch my competitors thru a tricky section. After a while, Nick came over and told me the news he'd just heard on the radio. A dark day but I went on with my final run thinking, "This one's for Pedro."
In an article in Road & Track which was published probably within a year or so of this terrible event, they featured Graham Hill attempting to set some speed records at Bonneville in a Ferrari 512. I recall a passage wherein the mechanics mentioned that Pedro could not escape the overturned Ferrari when his legs got caught up in the gubbins in behind the dash.
On this sad day, I was competing in one of my very first speed events at a slalom in the parking lot at York University north of Toronto. My buddy, Nick, accompanied me to the event. At one point, I wandered around to the back part of the lot to watch my competitors thru a tricky section. After a while, Nick came over and told me the news he'd just heard on the radio. A dark day but I went on with my final run thinking, "This one's for Pedro."
#5
Pedro 917
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Posted 09 August 2004 - 14:09
Here's a picture from my personal collection that I posted on the 11th of July. The Ferrari is about to be town away while Kurt Hild's Porsche was pushed on the grass. The right hand corner (followed immediately by a left hander) is just out of the picture / top right :
A lot has been said and written about Pedro's accident and "the truth" will probably never come out. Fact is that the Ferrari (chassis # 1008) was a 1970 512S converted by Ferrari to M specifications. The car, or should I say chassis, was used for the filming of "Le Mans" and then sold by Solar to Herbert Müller who, like I said, had it converted to an M by Ferrari. During the 1971 season, it carried a lot of different bodywork parts switched from both other 512 Ferrari's Müller had and crashed during the 1971 season. It wasn't a "fresh and shiny car" although the history of the chassis says it did only 4 or 5 races. In those days, cars were stripped apart and fixed in order to race at every occasion.
I, for myself, believe the car suffered suspension failure during braking for the right hander or avoiding Kurt Hild's Porsche he was about to lap. The car veered to the right, went into the armco at high speed, bending it and then hit the corner of a brick wall (corner of the bridge above the motorway below). Some hay-stacks were put in front of the bricks but they did no good at all. The car was catapulted back to the middle of the track but never turned over. As the impact ripped the right fuel tank apart, the first spark enflamed the car that was already burning when it slid to a standstill. At that moment, Pedro was already beyond saving as he died as a result of internal bleedings caused by multiple fractures. After a few seconds, there was another small explosion but firemen could extinguish the blaze in a relatively quick period of time. I have pictures, that I will not publish here, where Pedro is lying on his side with his helmet on the ground. Someone is trying to grab his arm in order to pull him out of the wreckage but the heat must have been intense. As it was a very warm day, almost everybody was wearing T-shirts and shorts.... Also Kinnunen jumped out of his 917, ran to the burning wreck but turned away immediately, I guess he realized Pedro was gone already and knew that there was very little he could do.
To put it in Pedro's own words : God had decided that this was the end of the road for him.
But God, how I still miss him.....
A lot has been said and written about Pedro's accident and "the truth" will probably never come out. Fact is that the Ferrari (chassis # 1008) was a 1970 512S converted by Ferrari to M specifications. The car, or should I say chassis, was used for the filming of "Le Mans" and then sold by Solar to Herbert Müller who, like I said, had it converted to an M by Ferrari. During the 1971 season, it carried a lot of different bodywork parts switched from both other 512 Ferrari's Müller had and crashed during the 1971 season. It wasn't a "fresh and shiny car" although the history of the chassis says it did only 4 or 5 races. In those days, cars were stripped apart and fixed in order to race at every occasion.
I, for myself, believe the car suffered suspension failure during braking for the right hander or avoiding Kurt Hild's Porsche he was about to lap. The car veered to the right, went into the armco at high speed, bending it and then hit the corner of a brick wall (corner of the bridge above the motorway below). Some hay-stacks were put in front of the bricks but they did no good at all. The car was catapulted back to the middle of the track but never turned over. As the impact ripped the right fuel tank apart, the first spark enflamed the car that was already burning when it slid to a standstill. At that moment, Pedro was already beyond saving as he died as a result of internal bleedings caused by multiple fractures. After a few seconds, there was another small explosion but firemen could extinguish the blaze in a relatively quick period of time. I have pictures, that I will not publish here, where Pedro is lying on his side with his helmet on the ground. Someone is trying to grab his arm in order to pull him out of the wreckage but the heat must have been intense. As it was a very warm day, almost everybody was wearing T-shirts and shorts.... Also Kinnunen jumped out of his 917, ran to the burning wreck but turned away immediately, I guess he realized Pedro was gone already and knew that there was very little he could do.
To put it in Pedro's own words : God had decided that this was the end of the road for him.
But God, how I still miss him.....
#6
MONTOYASPEED
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Posted 09 August 2004 - 17:01
Thanks Pedro 917 
PS: Where are you from?
PS: Where are you from?
#7
Muzza
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Posted 09 August 2004 - 19:05
One of the reasons that contributed for the start of this project is the fact that racing fatalities are so often misreported. The commotion caused by a death on the race track, the need to beat deadlines to hit the presses and the reliance on "I-heard-thats" on the preparation of articles are some of the causes of this phenomenon. Not rare these distortions are amplified with time, and incorrect descriptions and explanations of events are taken as the precise account of such tragedies.
Amongst these cases, the story of Pedro Rodríguez's crash at Norisring in 1971 is one most misreported of all. I do not intend to have "discovered the truth", but I hope the information below can help - together with points brought by other members of this forum - to unveil what really happened on that sunny, sad Sunday in Nuremberg.
1.)The circuit
The posting by fer312t that opens this thread mentions a common question about Rodríguez's accident: how come such a fiery crash happened at that point of the track?
Please note that in 1971 the Norisring had a different configuration than today. This is the circuit used that year (as well as in 1948 and in every year between 1952 and 1971) :
And this is the Norisring as we know it now:
(graphics are courtesy of Daniel King's Racing Circuit website, http://www.racingcircuits.net)
As you can see, the stretch along Beuthener Straβe was much longer then. Hence the Ferrari driven by Rodríguez reached speeds higher than one could imagine looking at the current track.
Also, it is worth keeping in mind that the general safety standards were quite different then (as explained by Pedro917 in the message above; see his notes about the crash barriers), and the crash absorption characteristics of the Ferrari 512 were much inferior to the current generation of racing cars.
2.) The accident
The most reported accounts of Rodríguez's fatal accident hover around the Mexican being blocked, baulked, disturbed or touched by a backmarker, and that this action would have triggered the crash. In fact, Kurt Hild's name was printed in many newspapers, magazines and books as the party responsible for that tragedy.
These were times when, compared to today, racing had much less visibility to the non-specialized press: unless something "spectacular" - like a fatality - happened, the sport was out of the radar of most publications. Also, the social perception and acceptance of a fatality during a racing event was quite different then than now.
Many European papers and most of the Mexican press were quick to put the blame on Hild. He was called, amongst other things, a "murderer". Pedro was a national hero in Mexico, where his death caused profound mourning and reached official levels (besides his status as a sportsman, the Rodríguez were also an influential family). The commotion escalated: according to an Italian diplomat stationed in Mexico City at the time (a friend of my parents), the Mexican Ambassador in Germany pressured the German government for a "quick and complete investigation of the accident".
With tempers boiling over, the commission charged with the investigation prepared a rushed report that, in less than two weeks, identified Kurt Hild as guilty for Rodríguez's accident. According to such report, Hild "was running at 210 kilometers per hour, 40 less than Rodríguez; a flagman waved the blue flag to show Hild to drive at the center of the track (*), and let Rodríguez overtake [...] but he did not follow this signal [...] causing the accident." (from newspaper Bild Zeitung).
The Commission recommended Hild to banned for life from racing activities - a punishment that did come through. It was all too convenient for all parties to blame Hild: it would provide a quick "closure" to the case; it would somehow pacify the pressures from Mexico; it would satisfy the blood-thirsty media ("the more scandal the better") and it would, of course, divert the attention from other factors that did contribute to the outcome of the accident, as the condition of the track, its passive safety systems (barriers, catch fences) and the degree of preparedness of the rescue teams. It is worth stressing that these elements - track, its safety and its rescue teams - had been criticized by other drivers, as Leo Kinnunen, before the accident.
(*) A symptomatically strange statement by the Commission. Clearly a driver being overtaken should coast to the side of the track, and not remain on its center.
Hild refused to accept responsibility for the crash, declaring "I saw Rodríguez approaching and ran to the right so he could pass (on the left). It was a normal passing situation happening about 400 meters (1/4 mile) from the crash. I was doing about 220 kilometers per hour (138 mph) and when the accident happened I was about 120 meters behind the Mexican" [excerpt from Carlos Eduardo Jalife Villalón’s article at http://www.autoracin...9Rodriguez1.htm].
Additionally, the conclusion prepared by the Commission was in contradiction with many eyewitnesses, who reported that:
- The Ferrari had just overtaken Hild's car, passing on the left side of the track (as reported by Hild), when it suddenly veered to the right, cutting in front of the Porsche but not touching it, hitting the barriers and spinning back to the track. It was then that Hild's glanced Rodríguez's;
- Rodríguez's Ferrari had lost a wheel before the initial crash (reported by several witnesses);
- according to some testimonies Leo Kinnunen's Porsche 917 was actually the first car to approach (in speed) Rodríguez's Ferrari. Kinnunen was able to swerve and avoid hitting the 512, but Hild didn't.
Later that same year a tribunal would overturn the suspension applied to Hild. Nevertheless the damage had already been done: his reputation tarnished, he is today the man most of us know as "the backmarker that punted Rodríguez's Ferrari into the barriers".
A few years ago I received an e-mail from a person claiming to have spectated that race, and his statements were very much aligned to what I had read about other witnesses' account, saying that the front right wheel of the Ferrari collapsed when Rodríguez had cleared Hild's car. An important detail is that the sender of the e-mail mentioned "smoke" coming out of the front of the Ferrari (possibly due to a locked wheel), that then "turned and hit the wall. It spin, jump and catch fire [sic]".
This person said that Hild "appeared to break but he hit Rodriguezs car and then stopped slowly in the right side of the track". Finally, this person does not recall Kinnunen's maneuver to avoid hitting Rodríguez. Instead, he claimed that Kinnunen's Porsche reached the scene after the Ferrari had stopped spinning - but, on the other hand, he was not sure about the identity of Kinnunen.
Based on my personal gathering of information, I am led to believe that Rodríguez's accident was triggered by his car suffering a mechanical failure - collapse of front right suspension, or fracture of front right wheel hub, or another technical problem - just as the Mexican had overtaken the Porsche driven by Hild.
3.) The causa mortis
Pedro Rodríguez was indeed seriously burned in the crash, but I believe the official report prepared after his autospy states that he died of multiple injuries, including head injuries such as forehead and base-of-skull fractures as well as damage to internal organs (that may have resulted the bleeding Pedro917 lists above in his posting).
It also stated that Rodríguez most likely lost consciousness at the initial impact.
This is my humble contribution; it is what I think I know, as of today; hopefully I will learn more from you folks. I believe saying "nothing is going to bring Pedro back" is easy and evasive; instead, understanding what truly happened that day is an important exercise of investigation ¨C which also may help to save other lives on and off the track.
Or, as Don Radbruch recently wrote me, "Sad as it is fatalities are a part of racing history".
Regards,
Muzza
Amongst these cases, the story of Pedro Rodríguez's crash at Norisring in 1971 is one most misreported of all. I do not intend to have "discovered the truth", but I hope the information below can help - together with points brought by other members of this forum - to unveil what really happened on that sunny, sad Sunday in Nuremberg.
1.)The circuit
The posting by fer312t that opens this thread mentions a common question about Rodríguez's accident: how come such a fiery crash happened at that point of the track?
Please note that in 1971 the Norisring had a different configuration than today. This is the circuit used that year (as well as in 1948 and in every year between 1952 and 1971) :
And this is the Norisring as we know it now:
(graphics are courtesy of Daniel King's Racing Circuit website, http://www.racingcircuits.net)
As you can see, the stretch along Beuthener Straβe was much longer then. Hence the Ferrari driven by Rodríguez reached speeds higher than one could imagine looking at the current track.
Also, it is worth keeping in mind that the general safety standards were quite different then (as explained by Pedro917 in the message above; see his notes about the crash barriers), and the crash absorption characteristics of the Ferrari 512 were much inferior to the current generation of racing cars.
2.) The accident
The most reported accounts of Rodríguez's fatal accident hover around the Mexican being blocked, baulked, disturbed or touched by a backmarker, and that this action would have triggered the crash. In fact, Kurt Hild's name was printed in many newspapers, magazines and books as the party responsible for that tragedy.
These were times when, compared to today, racing had much less visibility to the non-specialized press: unless something "spectacular" - like a fatality - happened, the sport was out of the radar of most publications. Also, the social perception and acceptance of a fatality during a racing event was quite different then than now.
Many European papers and most of the Mexican press were quick to put the blame on Hild. He was called, amongst other things, a "murderer". Pedro was a national hero in Mexico, where his death caused profound mourning and reached official levels (besides his status as a sportsman, the Rodríguez were also an influential family). The commotion escalated: according to an Italian diplomat stationed in Mexico City at the time (a friend of my parents), the Mexican Ambassador in Germany pressured the German government for a "quick and complete investigation of the accident".
With tempers boiling over, the commission charged with the investigation prepared a rushed report that, in less than two weeks, identified Kurt Hild as guilty for Rodríguez's accident. According to such report, Hild "was running at 210 kilometers per hour, 40 less than Rodríguez; a flagman waved the blue flag to show Hild to drive at the center of the track (*), and let Rodríguez overtake [...] but he did not follow this signal [...] causing the accident." (from newspaper Bild Zeitung).
The Commission recommended Hild to banned for life from racing activities - a punishment that did come through. It was all too convenient for all parties to blame Hild: it would provide a quick "closure" to the case; it would somehow pacify the pressures from Mexico; it would satisfy the blood-thirsty media ("the more scandal the better") and it would, of course, divert the attention from other factors that did contribute to the outcome of the accident, as the condition of the track, its passive safety systems (barriers, catch fences) and the degree of preparedness of the rescue teams. It is worth stressing that these elements - track, its safety and its rescue teams - had been criticized by other drivers, as Leo Kinnunen, before the accident.
(*) A symptomatically strange statement by the Commission. Clearly a driver being overtaken should coast to the side of the track, and not remain on its center.
Hild refused to accept responsibility for the crash, declaring "I saw Rodríguez approaching and ran to the right so he could pass (on the left). It was a normal passing situation happening about 400 meters (1/4 mile) from the crash. I was doing about 220 kilometers per hour (138 mph) and when the accident happened I was about 120 meters behind the Mexican" [excerpt from Carlos Eduardo Jalife Villalón’s article at http://www.autoracin...9Rodriguez1.htm].
Additionally, the conclusion prepared by the Commission was in contradiction with many eyewitnesses, who reported that:
- The Ferrari had just overtaken Hild's car, passing on the left side of the track (as reported by Hild), when it suddenly veered to the right, cutting in front of the Porsche but not touching it, hitting the barriers and spinning back to the track. It was then that Hild's glanced Rodríguez's;
- Rodríguez's Ferrari had lost a wheel before the initial crash (reported by several witnesses);
- according to some testimonies Leo Kinnunen's Porsche 917 was actually the first car to approach (in speed) Rodríguez's Ferrari. Kinnunen was able to swerve and avoid hitting the 512, but Hild didn't.
Later that same year a tribunal would overturn the suspension applied to Hild. Nevertheless the damage had already been done: his reputation tarnished, he is today the man most of us know as "the backmarker that punted Rodríguez's Ferrari into the barriers".
A few years ago I received an e-mail from a person claiming to have spectated that race, and his statements were very much aligned to what I had read about other witnesses' account, saying that the front right wheel of the Ferrari collapsed when Rodríguez had cleared Hild's car. An important detail is that the sender of the e-mail mentioned "smoke" coming out of the front of the Ferrari (possibly due to a locked wheel), that then "turned and hit the wall. It spin, jump and catch fire [sic]".
This person said that Hild "appeared to break but he hit Rodriguezs car and then stopped slowly in the right side of the track". Finally, this person does not recall Kinnunen's maneuver to avoid hitting Rodríguez. Instead, he claimed that Kinnunen's Porsche reached the scene after the Ferrari had stopped spinning - but, on the other hand, he was not sure about the identity of Kinnunen.
Based on my personal gathering of information, I am led to believe that Rodríguez's accident was triggered by his car suffering a mechanical failure - collapse of front right suspension, or fracture of front right wheel hub, or another technical problem - just as the Mexican had overtaken the Porsche driven by Hild.
3.) The causa mortis
Pedro Rodríguez was indeed seriously burned in the crash, but I believe the official report prepared after his autospy states that he died of multiple injuries, including head injuries such as forehead and base-of-skull fractures as well as damage to internal organs (that may have resulted the bleeding Pedro917 lists above in his posting).
It also stated that Rodríguez most likely lost consciousness at the initial impact.
This is my humble contribution; it is what I think I know, as of today; hopefully I will learn more from you folks. I believe saying "nothing is going to bring Pedro back" is easy and evasive; instead, understanding what truly happened that day is an important exercise of investigation ¨C which also may help to save other lives on and off the track.
Or, as Don Radbruch recently wrote me, "Sad as it is fatalities are a part of racing history".
Regards,
Muzza
#8
Manfred Cubenoggin
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Posted 09 August 2004 - 19:57
If I was confused before, now I'm dumbfounded. All the evidence presented here does nothing to erase the image from my mind of a stationary, largely intact Ferrari 512 lying inverted on a section of guardrail claimed to be that of Pedro at the Norisring. And what of my recollection of the article on Graham Hill at Bonneville in R&T, circa 1972-73? Somebody out there has the issue.
Guys, we really need my video tracked down. I have serious, serious doubts as to the actual events of that sad day.
Guys, we really need my video tracked down. I have serious, serious doubts as to the actual events of that sad day.
#9
CSGPR
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- 221 posts
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Posted 09 August 2004 - 20:37
Hi there
I think i can help you. But I am going to Greenland within the next two days. So please be patient.
best regards
csgpr
I think i can help you. But I am going to Greenland within the next two days. So please be patient.
best regards
csgpr
#11
Pedro 917
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Posted 09 August 2004 - 22:09
Manfred, the car was never upside down. I have +/- 30 seconds footage of the accident taped from TV. You don't see the actual impact but the car is sliding into the camera's angle, already in flames. There was also another thread on the Rodriguez accident. Check it out here
The car was completely destroyed. I've read somewhere that someone in California is 'rebuilding" it!
Thanks Muzza for your reply
Christian : have a safe trip!
The car was completely destroyed. I've read somewhere that someone in California is 'rebuilding" it!
Thanks Muzza for your reply
Christian : have a safe trip!
#12
Pedro 917
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Posted 09 August 2004 - 22:16
Oh Montoyaspeed, I'm from Belgium!
It's in my profile too. Everyone should fill in that part.
It's in my profile too. Everyone should fill in that part.
#13
Muzza
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Posted 09 August 2004 - 23:02
Hello Christian (CSGPR),
I am most interested on talking to you - I think we debated about this subject a few years ago in another forum (Ten Tenths). Also, the words you mentioned in this posting of yours are very similar to those I received from a fellow who lives in Germany - would he be the same person that talked to you?
Let's please keep in touch. Regards,
Muzza
P.S.: Thanks Luc for your - as I said I am just trying to help to solve this mystery by reporting my personal findings; my statements are not supposed to be taken as the truth. They are "the truth as I know it today."
I am most interested on talking to you - I think we debated about this subject a few years ago in another forum (Ten Tenths). Also, the words you mentioned in this posting of yours are very similar to those I received from a fellow who lives in Germany - would he be the same person that talked to you?
Let's please keep in touch. Regards,
Muzza
P.S.: Thanks Luc for your
- as I said I am just trying to help to solve this mystery by reporting my personal findings; my statements are not supposed to be taken as the truth. They are "the truth as I know it today."
#14
FastMex
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- 251 posts
- Joined: July 02
Member
Posted 09 August 2004 - 23:07
Pedro917 and Muzza, thanks for your incredible input and praise for P.Rodriguez
Although I was 7 years-old when it happened, I still remember very well the commotion when we heard the tragic news the following day, a Monday. As kids we would play little car races at the school yard while pretending all to be Pedro Rodriguez.
I read somewhere that he still holds the record for the maximum speed during a race, somewhere of about 420 km/hr. I also read that he had actually started lapping backmarkers by the 5th lap before his accident at Norisring.
In 1967 or '69, he earned the price "The Most Fearless Driver" from a French racing journal (can't remember the name). He was also a legend for his ability for driving in the rain. His nickname "cat eyes" derived from his dexterity to drive at maximum speed during night time. He's still sadly missed today...
Pedro Rodriguez' legend lives on.
Best regards.
Although I was 7 years-old when it happened, I still remember very well the commotion when we heard the tragic news the following day, a Monday. As kids we would play little car races at the school yard while pretending all to be Pedro Rodriguez.
I read somewhere that he still holds the record for the maximum speed during a race, somewhere of about 420 km/hr. I also read that he had actually started lapping backmarkers by the 5th lap before his accident at Norisring.
In 1967 or '69, he earned the price "The Most Fearless Driver" from a French racing journal (can't remember the name). He was also a legend for his ability for driving in the rain. His nickname "cat eyes" derived from his dexterity to drive at maximum speed during night time. He's still sadly missed today...
Pedro Rodriguez' legend lives on.
Best regards.
#15
wibblywobbly
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- 287 posts
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Posted 10 August 2004 - 00:14
Special thanks to Muzza for that detailed post and to Pedro917, for the picture. I'm only a fledgling "Pedro Fan". Thanks to you guys, I'm learning more than I could ever imagine! By the way, my avatar is of Pedro, in the 908/3 at the 1970 Nurburgring 1000km. Talk about fearless driving!
#16
Buford
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Posted 10 August 2004 - 00:15
Originally posted by Pedro 917
Manfred, the car was never upside down. I have +/- 30 seconds footage of the accident taped from TV. You don't see the actual impact but the car is sliding into the camera's angle, already in flames.
That sounds like the shot I saw only once years ago. The same thing nearly happened to Pedro at Indianapolis but there, the first class rescue crew put the fire out and pulled him out. He was badly injured though.
#17
Twin Window
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Posted 10 August 2004 - 00:33
Well, for what it's worth, Pedro's Ferrari didn't flip - certainly not in any of the images I've seen in the intervening thirty-three years, anyway.
Twinny
Twinny
#18
Manfred Cubenoggin
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Posted 10 August 2004 - 01:06
All this evidence is very compelling but...
Two points now need to be raised.
1. Tho I discarded the issue years ago, my recollection of the G. Hill article in R&T is sound. I'll give you 100:1 odds on it, lads, and retire rich.
2. If not Pedro(and presumably not the Norisring)in the video clip that I saw, who's 512 was it and at what event???
Until such time that these can be resolved, IFAIC, I'll stick to my version.
OT: BTW, Buford. Did JC ever use the term 'Hewlandmania' with you at JRS?
Two points now need to be raised.
1. Tho I discarded the issue years ago, my recollection of the G. Hill article in R&T is sound. I'll give you 100:1 odds on it, lads, and retire rich.
2. If not Pedro(and presumably not the Norisring)in the video clip that I saw, who's 512 was it and at what event???
Until such time that these can be resolved, IFAIC, I'll stick to my version.
OT: BTW, Buford. Did JC ever use the term 'Hewlandmania' with you at JRS?
#19
Ruairidh
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Posted 10 August 2004 - 01:38
Originally posted by Pedro 917
To put it in Pedro's own words : God had decided that this was the end of the road for him.
But God, how I still miss him.....
Luc
I know how that feels - for me it is Jimmy Clark.
Have you ever posted as to why Pedro meant so much to you? Why him and not other folks?
Incidentally I've been trying to get the June Motor Sport to read the deerstalker piece but without success - my local Barnes & Noble get 3 copies a month and so I have just resubscribed - after 20 years! So maybe Haymarket owe you a thank you for a new subscriber!
Regards
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#20
cjpani
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Posted 10 August 2004 - 02:34
Luc, Muzza good info -albeit sad.
I am one of those who weeps for Pedro wholeheartedly
cj
Luc, glad to see youre back
I am one of those who weeps for Pedro wholeheartedly
cj
Luc, glad to see youre back
#21
Buford
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Posted 10 August 2004 - 03:45
Originally posted by Manfred Cubenoggin
All this evidence is very compelling but...
Two points now need to be raised.
1. Tho I discarded the issue years ago, my recollection of the G. Hill article in R&T is sound. I'll give you 100:1 odds on it, lads, and retire rich.
2. If not Pedro(and presumably not the Norisring)in the video clip that I saw, who's 512 was it and at what event???
Until such time that these can be resolved, IFAIC, I'll stick to my version.
OT: BTW, Buford. Did JC ever use the term 'Hewlandmania' with you at JRS?
About JC - not that I recall. What year was the R&T article? I might be able to find it.
#22
JB Miltonian
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Posted 10 August 2004 - 05:50
For Manfred's peace of mind, here is the quote from Henry Manney's article in Road & Track, January 1975, page 60, about the record runs at Bonneville with the 512:
"The drivers were having fun with their little conversations with Graham v much elder statesman and Minter putting in little deadpan remarks like what to do if the 512 gets upside down; i.e. kick out the windshield as it has gull wings...that's how poor Pedro got it as he couldn't get his legs out from under the wheel, all of which wasn't exactly encouraging to PN (Paul Newman) who rolled his eyes around a bit."
The car in question at Bonneville is described as "....an evil-looking 512 A through Z 5-liter coupe."
"The drivers were having fun with their little conversations with Graham v much elder statesman and Minter putting in little deadpan remarks like what to do if the 512 gets upside down; i.e. kick out the windshield as it has gull wings...that's how poor Pedro got it as he couldn't get his legs out from under the wheel, all of which wasn't exactly encouraging to PN (Paul Newman) who rolled his eyes around a bit."
The car in question at Bonneville is described as "....an evil-looking 512 A through Z 5-liter coupe."
#23
Jeremy Jackson
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Posted 10 August 2004 - 09:07
Originally posted by Manfred Cubenoggin
All this evidence is very compelling but...
snip...
2. If not Pedro(and presumably not the Norisring)in the video clip that I saw, who's 512 was it and at what event???
Manfred,
This wouldn't have been Herbie Müller's start-line accident at the Nürburgring Interserie in September 1972 would it? His 512M was destroyed after landing up-side-down on a barrier, in a start-line collision with Pesch's McLaren.
Autosport's report says: "...landed up-side-down after being launched off the armco barrier into a half-roll, it's complete fuel load exlpoding into a ball of flame as it hit the ground".
Might not be this I suppose, if your clip didn't show any fire, but just a thought.
#24
Buford
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Posted 10 August 2004 - 10:42
Actually that crash was posted in a link here recently.
#25
Manfred Cubenoggin
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Posted 10 August 2004 - 12:54
JB Miltonian:
Thanx for posting that passage from the R&T article. Knew that I'd read something about Pedro trapped in the 512.
- - - - - - - -
Jeremy Jackson:
The video clip that I saw showed the Ferrari inverted and stationary on the guardrail, nose high. Is this the final position of Muller's car? A pix posted here would do much to establish the true identity of the clip I saw. I will grant you the possibility that I've been misinformed for all these years. You can imagine my quandry versus all the posts from my colleagues here at TNF.
- - - - - - - -
Note too that poster 'CSGPR' mentioned something a couple of days ago about having some information that might help clear things up(for me, at least).
- - - - - - - -
Buford:
Jacques Couture was fond of using the term at the Jim Russell School I attended at Watkins Glen in '73. It meant that when you saw another school car close up in front of you, rev limits went by the boards as you tried to put that other Hewland behind you.
Thanx for posting that passage from the R&T article. Knew that I'd read something about Pedro trapped in the 512.
- - - - - - - -
Jeremy Jackson:
The video clip that I saw showed the Ferrari inverted and stationary on the guardrail, nose high. Is this the final position of Muller's car? A pix posted here would do much to establish the true identity of the clip I saw. I will grant you the possibility that I've been misinformed for all these years. You can imagine my quandry versus all the posts from my colleagues here at TNF.
- - - - - - - -
Note too that poster 'CSGPR' mentioned something a couple of days ago about having some information that might help clear things up(for me, at least).
- - - - - - - -
Buford:
Jacques Couture was fond of using the term at the Jim Russell School I attended at Watkins Glen in '73. It meant that when you saw another school car close up in front of you, rev limits went by the boards as you tried to put that other Hewland behind you.
#26
Henri Greuter
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Posted 10 August 2004 - 13:18
For the record,
the chassis of the car was a write off, the chassis numberplate was taken off and retained by someone, I believe the owners
Engine and gearbox however were still salvageable and I know and have seen that a replica 512 is built up, using the drive line of that particular car.
At least, that was what the man at the place where I saw that car told me that the driveline came from....
Henri Greuter
the chassis of the car was a write off, the chassis numberplate was taken off and retained by someone, I believe the owners
Engine and gearbox however were still salvageable and I know and have seen that a replica 512 is built up, using the drive line of that particular car.
At least, that was what the man at the place where I saw that car told me that the driveline came from....
Henri Greuter
#27
Jeremy Jackson
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- 479 posts
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Posted 10 August 2004 - 14:07
Manfred,
The pic in Autosport shows the 2 wrecked cars, I presume in a holdng area sometime after the accident. What remains of the Ferrari is a mangled mess, not recognisable as a 512.
To be honest, from the description of the clip you saw, I'm doubtful it was this incident. Perhaps we'll see what CSGPR has to solve this...
The pic in Autosport shows the 2 wrecked cars, I presume in a holdng area sometime after the accident. What remains of the Ferrari is a mangled mess, not recognisable as a 512.
To be honest, from the description of the clip you saw, I'm doubtful it was this incident. Perhaps we'll see what CSGPR has to solve this...
#28
Muzza
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Posted 10 August 2004 - 14:17
Originally posted by Henri Greuter
For the record,
the chassis of the car was a write off, the chassis numberplate was taken off and retained by someone, I believe the owners
Engine and gearbox however were still salvageable and I know and have seen that a replica 512 is built up, using the drive line of that particular car.
At least, that was what the man at the place where I saw that car told me that the driveline came from....
Henri Greuter
Hello, Henri,
I remember reading something similar in a vintage racing magazine a while ago, but after a few hours of search (that means, not much) I couldn't find that caption. In any case, the website Classicscars has the following résumé of that car:
"[chassis number] 1008
[type/model] 512S Berlinetta
[first owner] Filipinetti
[history] 1970:
ADAC Nurburgring 1,000K; Muller-Parkes; 4th
Le Mans: Scuderia Filipinetti entry for Bonnier-Wissel; DNF [accident]
Converted to M specification
1971:
Monza 1,000K: Moretti-Zeccoli; 8th
Norisring 500Km: car totally destroyed in accident, Rodriguez killed. [The correct name of the race was 200 Meilen von Nürnberg, or 200 Miles of Nuremberg]
Chassis plate kept for sentimental reasons by Muller. Being ÒrebuiltÓ by John Hadjuck. [ÒrebuiltÓ means "rebuilt"; the characters are mixed up in the text of the page] "
Regards,
Muzza
#29
Twin Window
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Posted 10 August 2004 - 14:21
ManfredOriginally posted by Manfred Cubenoggin
I'll give you 100:1 odds on it, lads, and retire rich.
Are these the odds you're offering on whether the 512 rolled or not? Where do I place my GBP 100.00 stake...?
Twinny
#30
FastMex
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- 251 posts
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Posted 10 August 2004 - 16:27
Originally posted by wibblywobbly
...I'm only a fledgling "Pedro Fan"...
You'll find great pics and more info about Pedro on "Speed's Ultimate Price" on The Nostalgia Forum (ie. posts #1638-40).
#31
JB Miltonian
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Posted 10 August 2004 - 17:16
The footage of the end of Pedro's accident, with the car sliding along the guardrail and catching fire, is in the movie "Fangio". I fast-forwarded through my video copy of it last night. You can't really tell much about the car, the big rear panel is folded up and you don't get a real good look, but it certainly isn't inverted. The picture of his helmet on the ground and someone reaching for his arm is shown also.
I'm sure most of you have seen "Fangio", which shows a great deal of wreck footage having nothing to do with JMF. Some of it played to "La Di Da" music, like it was amusing.
I'm sure most of you have seen "Fangio", which shows a great deal of wreck footage having nothing to do with JMF. Some of it played to "La Di Da" music, like it was amusing.
#32
Pedro 917
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Posted 10 August 2004 - 21:52
Here's a picture of the place of impact. Check the bent guardrail support and the bridge's corner and you'll understand why the car was ripped apart, not to mention Pedro's legs!
and here's the wreck of the 512, the car hanging down with the rear body work flipped over the roof :
My collection / photographer unknown
About the replica being built : I'm pretty sure it will be announced as the car that took Pedro's life...
and here's the wreck of the 512, the car hanging down with the rear body work flipped over the roof :
My collection / photographer unknown
About the replica being built : I'm pretty sure it will be announced as the car that took Pedro's life...
#33
Henri Greuter
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Posted 11 August 2004 - 07:29
Originally posted by Pedro 917
About the replica being built : I'm pretty sure it will be announced as the car that took Pedro's life...
I don't think that to happen.
I spoke the owner of the car and he told me that he has no intention to let the car be known as a genuine 512 but a chassis replica, yet using original components. He had seen pics of the wreck to know that people won't believe that it is the original car resotored again.
He's a genuine Ferrari fan, bitten once or twice by other collectors who pulled off such tricks as selling cars that were not entirely original and his philosophy is that he rather preserves history as it really was and instead of cheating and making a buck of 2 to 3 million out of it. Other than that he doens't want to do what others did to him so he retains the right to complain about those s.....rs who do such.
Based on my expperiences, I tend to believe the man.
Henri Greuter
Henri Greuter
#34
rustyfan
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Posted 12 August 2004 - 12:29
Originally posted by Manfred Cubenoggin
The video clip that I saw showed the Ferrari inverted and stationary on the guardrail, nose high. Is this the final position of Muller's car?
Rather hard to tell (from looking at the video), since Müller's car disappears in a huge ball of fire (from which Müller comes running out of - on fire - several seconds later).
How Müller escaped serious injury in that 1972 crash is beyond me.
#35
CSGPR
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Posted 15 August 2004 - 23:07
Hi Muzza
Sorry for my late respond
. But I have just started a new job as a firefighter at Thule Airbase. 8th. august was my first day on the base and there has beeen a lot of things to take care of. And it will go on the next two weeks or so. But I will be back.
Best Regards
Christian
Sorry for my late respond
. But I have just started a new job as a firefighter at Thule Airbase. 8th. august was my first day on the base and there has beeen a lot of things to take care of. And it will go on the next two weeks or so. But I will be back.Best Regards
Christian
#36
Muzza
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Posted 16 August 2004 - 02:13
Originally posted by CSGPR
Hi Muzza
Sorry for my late respond
Best Regards
Christian
Cheers, Christian,
Absolutely no problem, I understand your problems (and sympathize with them: the next 90 days will be very, very difficult to me). We will keep in touch, no problem. I got your e-mail too.
Cheers,
Muzza
#37
Muzza
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Posted 17 August 2004 - 01:07
Hello again, Christian,
The e-mail address you sent me (also used by Atlas) is not working (so you may not even receive private messages).
If you get this message please contact me at info@motorsportmemorial.org and let me know your e-mail - I have a file on Pedro to send you.
Cheers,
Muzza
The e-mail address you sent me (also used by Atlas) is not working (so you may not even receive private messages).
If you get this message please contact me at info@motorsportmemorial.org and let me know your e-mail - I have a file on Pedro to send you.
Cheers,
Muzza
#38
CSGPR
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Posted 17 August 2004 - 14:27
Hi Muzza
I will look into it as soon as possible. So maybe tomorow.
Best Regards
Christan
I will look into it as soon as possible. So maybe tomorow.
Best Regards
Christan
#39
Pedro 917
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Posted 18 August 2004 - 10:41
Originally posted by Muzza :
I have a file on Pedro to send you.
Can you share the file with me too? Thanks!
Just send it to my home address : luc.ghys@pi.be
Anything about Pedro is welcome!
I have a file on Pedro to send you.
Can you share the file with me too? Thanks!
Just send it to my home address : luc.ghys@pi.be
Anything about Pedro is welcome!
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#40
Ralliart
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Posted 18 August 2004 - 23:28
From the book "Grand Prix Greats"..."...a few minutes into the race, he came upon a slower car, which moved across as he went by to lap it. The Ferrari went immediately out of control, hit the barriers with terrible force, somersaulted and exploded. It took a long time to release him from the wreckage, but Pedro was anyway beyond saving. At early evening he died."
From Randy Barnett - 20 May '94 On Track..."...his Ferrari shed a right front tire from its rim, skidded into a concrete wall, spun back onto the track, then exploded into flames...Hild...slammed into the burning wreck. Fire rescue crew immediately swarmed over the burning cars and pulled the drivers away. They were taken to the Nurnberg City Hospital, where Hild was treated for minor injuries. Rodriguez, however, died of burns shortly after his arrival at the hospital."
From Jay Lamm - Oct. '02 "(Porsche)Excellence"...Pedro Rodriguez's life ended on lap 8, after he'd built up a healthy lead. It was never determined if the Ferrari's wheel came apart and caused the wreck or was shattered by the impact...while setting up to pass a back marker, Pedro's car suddenly snapped out of control and slammed into the barriers...His heart was revived three times on the way to the hospital. He was pronounced dead that evening."
From Randy Barnett - 20 May '94 On Track..."...his Ferrari shed a right front tire from its rim, skidded into a concrete wall, spun back onto the track, then exploded into flames...Hild...slammed into the burning wreck. Fire rescue crew immediately swarmed over the burning cars and pulled the drivers away. They were taken to the Nurnberg City Hospital, where Hild was treated for minor injuries. Rodriguez, however, died of burns shortly after his arrival at the hospital."
From Jay Lamm - Oct. '02 "(Porsche)Excellence"...Pedro Rodriguez's life ended on lap 8, after he'd built up a healthy lead. It was never determined if the Ferrari's wheel came apart and caused the wreck or was shattered by the impact...while setting up to pass a back marker, Pedro's car suddenly snapped out of control and slammed into the barriers...His heart was revived three times on the way to the hospital. He was pronounced dead that evening."
#41
rolando
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Posted 19 August 2004 - 03:52
This drawing shows the Auto Sprint's theory about Pedro's fatal accident.
#42
Schummy
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Posted 21 August 2004 - 15:42
I saw the (partial) footage of the accident on TV in the news. Obviously I was shocked, as I was a lover of sportcars racing in that time, and PR was one of the best ever in that kind of racing.
I remember reading or hearing in that epoch (possibly in Autopista magazine, or maybe in TV) that Pedro's car had a damaged wheel (or tyre?). If someone of the spanish people has a copy of that Autopista issue...
I cannot apport personally any info because I just saw the footage that was, as formerly pointed in the thread, after the actual impact and, anyway it was so many years ago that I cannot remember any useful details.
I remember reading or hearing in that epoch (possibly in Autopista magazine, or maybe in TV) that Pedro's car had a damaged wheel (or tyre?). If someone of the spanish people has a copy of that Autopista issue...
I cannot apport personally any info because I just saw the footage that was, as formerly pointed in the thread, after the actual impact and, anyway it was so many years ago that I cannot remember any useful details.
#43
Pedro 917
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Posted 15 December 2004 - 22:32
Here are 2 pictures of the Herbert Müller Ferrari 512 crash in September 1972 at the Nürburgring. In the first picture, Huschke von Hanstein is checking the wreckage.
Copyright : Manfred Förster.
And here is a low resolution film (2.2 Mb) of the Rodriguez crash that I copied from a vhs tape to my hard disk. I don't know who owns the copyright but I have it from 3 different TV channels :
200 Miles Norisring 1971
Copyright : Manfred Förster.
And here is a low resolution film (2.2 Mb) of the Rodriguez crash that I copied from a vhs tape to my hard disk. I don't know who owns the copyright but I have it from 3 different TV channels :
200 Miles Norisring 1971
#44
Muzza
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Posted 15 December 2004 - 23:13
Salut, Luc,
Many thanks for posting these documents, which have significant historical importance, despite being quite painful to watch.
I continue to try to contact our fellow member Christian "CSGPR" but his e-mail addresses are not working... Christian, if you are around, please send me a private message or an e-mail.
Best regards,
Muzza
Many thanks for posting these documents, which have significant historical importance, despite being quite painful to watch.
I continue to try to contact our fellow member Christian "CSGPR" but his e-mail addresses are not working... Christian, if you are around, please send me a private message or an e-mail.
Best regards,
Muzza
#45
Twin Window
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Posted 15 December 2004 - 23:23
Very interesting pics, Luc. And ones I've not seen before - I've only ever seen the ones taken from a distance.
He was clearly very lucky to escape from this, but how ironic that he should die at the same circuit nine years later. Also in a fire...
Does anyone know exactly what happened? Surely this is the incident Manfred Cubenoggin was thinking of when he got all confused at the beginning of this thread. Too bad he buggered off in a huff.
He was clearly very lucky to escape from this, but how ironic that he should die at the same circuit nine years later. Also in a fire...
Does anyone know exactly what happened? Surely this is the incident Manfred Cubenoggin was thinking of when he got all confused at the beginning of this thread. Too bad he buggered off in a huff.
#46
Muzza
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Posted 15 December 2004 - 23:44
Originally posted by Twin Window
Very interesting pics, Luc. And ones I've not seen before - I've only ever seen the ones taken from a distance.
He was clearly very lucky to escape from this, but how ironic that he should die at the same circuit nine years later. Also in a fire...
Does anyone know exactly what happened? Surely this is the incident Manfred Cubenoggin was thinking of when he got all confused at the beginning of this thread. Too bad he buggered off in a huff.
Hello, Twinny,
I have a video of Müller's accident at the Nürburgring in 1972 but I am unable to offer a link because of bandwidth limitations. I can e-mail it to you if you want to see it. The video is in French (I think it is a TF1 documentary), and Müller narrates it - hearing his voice describing the details and saying "how sad it is to see everything ending in a second' (or something alike) was a most shocking experience to me, particularly considering what would happen nine years later...
It all happened at the start of the race: Müller's Ferrari 512M and the McLaren M8E - Chevrolet of Franz Pesch tangled and the Ferrari was propelled at full speed against the very beginning of the pit wall. The car exploded upon impact in a huge ball of fire, and overturned. Pesch's car also caught fire. It was a horrible accident, obviously.
Müller managed to get himself out of the car and run away with his overalls ablaze. He dash to the back of the pits and rolled on the ground. Some other people - mechanics, marshals and whomever else was in that area - run to help him. He suffered serious burns, that required a long and painful recovery, and he was left with scars in his face (also shoulders and legs, I understand). Pesch was also burned in the accident, albeit not so severely.
The accident is exhibited to all those the visit the Nürburgring museum and watch the video showing the history of the track. The scenes are inserted in such a way in the museum production that they serve as a "reason" why the Nordschleife gave space to the new track (as main racing venue in teh Eifel circuit).
Regards,
Muzza
#47
cjpani
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Posted 16 December 2004 - 17:05
shocking video
never seen the footage before.
speechles
cj
never seen the footage before.
speechles
cj
#48
CSGPR
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Posted 17 December 2004 - 02:43
Hi every body
I'm here now. It took some time Sorry again. Muzza I have send you a private massage , with my Greenland e-mail add. And I am looking forward to hear from you.
This is the first time I have see this Video, as A fire fighter one can't see how the marshals could make a proper effort only dressed in ordinary clothing, wearing only a shirt with short sleeves, which prevent them to come close to the car. And you can clearly see the fuel reignite under the car because it hasn't be extinguished probably. We have come a long way since then.
Best Regards
I'm here now. It took some time Sorry again. Muzza I have send you a private massage , with my Greenland e-mail add. And I am looking forward to hear from you.
This is the first time I have see this Video, as A fire fighter one can't see how the marshals could make a proper effort only dressed in ordinary clothing, wearing only a shirt with short sleeves, which prevent them to come close to the car. And you can clearly see the fuel reignite under the car because it hasn't be extinguished probably. We have come a long way since then.
Best Regards
#49
Muzza
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Posted 17 December 2004 - 02:56
Good to hear from you, Christian,
Thanks for sending your new e-mail address - I will keep in touch with you.
Cheers,
Muzza
Thanks for sending your new e-mail address - I will keep in touch with you.
Cheers,
Muzza
#50
Twin Window
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Posted 17 December 2004 - 08:45
Thanks for your earlier explanation, Sal.
