27 replies to this topic

[Bengt]

This race was mentioned in another thread and I wonder if someone has any more information about it. Was it a FL race or what? I seem to remember some info of Jo Bonnier winning a race at Monza in 1967 in his Cooper-Maserati T81 F1 car. Is this the race? If so, against what opposition?
Anybody has a results list of this race?

[Roger Clark]

The only reference I know of to this race in on Allen Brown's website: http://www.oldracing...?CarID=T81/5-66

It gives that date as 4th June 1967. The main race at Monza that day was for F3, won by Giancarlo Baghetti. It was the race in which Boley Pittard was killed. There is an Autosport report of the F3 race, but no mention of the Automobile Revue Cup. The Dutch Grand Prix was the same day. All of which suggest that Jo Bo's opposition was not of the highest calibre.

[humphries]

Bengt

The Swiss held a round of their national championship at Monza on 28 May, 1967. At Monza the racing car classes along with the sports-racers were competing for an Automobile Revue Cup. The magazine sponsored other races in the championship series at other venues.

At Monza Bonnier, who raced with a Swiss licence, won easily in front of Walter Habegger in his Lotus 41C Ford t/c. Walter did well to keep Charles Vogele in his Brabham-Climax 2.7 back in third. Vogele had tried out Fritz Baumann's Cooper T77-ATS in practce but preferred his Brabham.


John

[bschenker]

The Cooper ATS has raced on 21.05.1967 at Siracusa (I) with Silvio Moser, hi have stopped the race with the conviction the engine will blow.
On the way home why stay for tree days at Modena in the Serenisima Workshop from Alf Francis.
The mechanic from Baumann, the owner from the car, change the plug and oil and drive the car ones for day on the public road to test. For him the engine was ok.
At Monza Charles Voegele make about few laps in the practise, and the engine blows up, so hi was obligated to race with his Brabham Climax.

[Reyna]

humphries, bschenker... Bravo !!!

So, could we considere this race as an F1 non Championship race... or a Formula Libre race... or only a Swiss Championship race ???





Rafa

[humphries]

Reyna

This Monza race and that at Hockenheim were Formula Multi-class. Other events in the Swiss championships were sprints ( slaloms ) and ,of course, hill-climbs. It just so happens that a number of drivers could afford some exotic machinery but it was simply national club racing.


John

[bschenker]

Swiss national championship

[Rob29]

Originally posted by bschenker
Swiss national championship

Is (or was) there any difference between club and national status in Switzerland?

[David McKinney]

There certainly is in most countries

[bschenker]

I’m not a big specialist of the racing in Switzerland, normally wee (Silvio Moser) raced outside of the national territories. Normally the hill climb races were part of the Swiss championship. But wee also raced on Club race at Hockenheim, and club hill climb races, I think most were from SAR (Schweizer Automobil Rennsport Club).
The most famous was the Montlhéry drive school with famous international instructors.
Recently was a championship for English cars organized from Marcel Schaub the owner of Silvio Moser argentine Brabham BT6-07, may by still today.
I’m sure there was also other Club Races in Switzerland or on a Circuit like Hockenheim, Dijon, Salzburgring, Oesterreichring, Monza and others.

[Jimmy Piget]

Originally posted by humphries
This Monza race and that at Hockenheim were Formula Multi-class. Other events in the Swiss championships were sprints ( slaloms ) and ,of course, hill-climbs. It just so happens that a number of drivers could afford some exotic machinery but it was simply national club racing.
John

A lot of questions are haunting my brain : Which events were qualifying rounds for this 1967 Swiss championship ? dates ? winners ? Who was the eventual champion ? What about this Hockenheim race ? What was the model & chassis number of Vögele's Brabham-Climax ?

I can't live without answers to all this...

[humphries]

Jimmy

The National racing calendar as issued by the AC der Schweiz for 1967 was as follows:-

23 April........................ Payern (Slalom)
06 May........................ Wangen (Slalom)
28 May........................ Monza
04 June....................... Hockenheim
25 June....................... Lens-Crans
20 August................... St.Ursanne-Les Rangiers
27 August................... Ollon-Villars
09 September............. Mitholz-Kandersteg
08 October.................. Marchairuz

The last four events are, of course, bergrennen.

Hope this prevents a further thinning of our ranks!

John

[humphries]

Five

[hinnershitz]

The best way to get more info on the Swiss championships would be to get a run of "Powerslide", the Swiss magazine that started in 1963 and is still alive under its new name "Motorsport Aktuell".

The races at Monza and Hockenheim are reported in Powerslide Juli/1967. There's no date given for the Monza event, but I'm sure May 28 is correct. It was the 4th round of the champioship, the first three being the Rallye Solitude-Charbonnieres and the Slaloms at Payerne and Wengen. The Monza meeting consisted of seven races, each over 15 laps.

The "Coppa Automobil-Revue" was run for racing cars only (all classes, so there was no seperate event for F3), while the sports cars started in the "Coppa Shell", won by Tschiemer (Porsche 906) from Kühnis (Porsche 906), De Guidi (Porsche 904) and Morand (Lotus Elan).

The result from the "Coppa Automobil-Revue" is given as:
1. Bonnier - Cooper Maserati
2. Habegger - Lotus (1 lap behind)
3. Vögele - Brabham
4. Frey - Brabham
5. Blum - Brabham
6. Perrot - Lotus


The race at Hockenheim was run just one week later, on June 4. This time they held 11 single races with 200 drivers competing in them. It seems there were two races, in which racing cars were eligible. The first was the "Coppa Hermes", won by Büsch (Brabham F2) from Bouquet (Cooper), with Basler (Zarp) winning the Formula Vee class.

Then the final race was for Racing and Sports cars. Habegger took a flag-to-flag victory. Baur took second with his Formula 3-Brabham after a long duel with Steinemanns Porsche 906. Fourth place went to Kühnis in another 906.

Here's a picture of Habegger during the Hockenheim race:




Final standings of the Swiss championship for racing cars, 1967:
1. Habegger - Lotus - 596,565 points
2. Perrot - Lotus 23C - 576,346
3. Frey - Brabham - 573,072
4. Büsch - Brabham - 565,879
5. Blum - Brabham - 564,335
6. Boucquet - Cooper - 559,511
7. Basler - Zarp - 532,114
8. W. Müller - Zarp - 516,295
9. Rey - Apal - 514,851

There are also final results for touring cars, GT and sports cars. Can post, if you want. Please don't ask me to explain the points system, I never understood this myself.

[Jimmy Piget]

Originally posted by humphries
23 April........................ Payern (Slalom)
06 May........................ Wangen (Slalom)
28 May........................ Monza
04 June....................... Hockenheim
25 June....................... Lens-Crans
20 August................... St.Ursanne-Les Rangiers
27 August................... Ollon-Villars
09 September............. Mitholz-Kandersteg
08 October.................. Marchairuz

Thanks John
One more question : who were the winners for each event (bar Monza & Hockenheim) ?

[Jimmy Piget]

I mean : winners in single-seater class.
Other wise, did single-seaters compete in Ollons-Villars ?

[Tomas Karlsson]

I have found a note that Jo Bonnier took part in the slalom at Wangen in june '67.
Can anyone tell me more about these slalom events?

[humphries]

Jimmy

Hinnershitz would appear to be your man. I'm sure the slalom and mountain-climbs are in "Powerslide", a beautifully produced magazine but not providing great detail on the Austrian,German and Swiss "national" scene; just enough to make you want more!

John

[hinnershitz]

I'll try. The reports in Powerslide are indeed a bit inconsistent. Some of the races - like Monza - get extensive coverage, some are not mentioned at all, and it is sometimes difficult to find out, which race belonged to which champioship, etc.


Here's the season preview from Powerslide, Feb. 1967:

March 16-19 - Deutschlandrallye (Stuttgart/Solitude-Lyon/Charbonnieres)
April 23 - Slalom Payerne
May 6 - Slalom Wangen
May 28 or June 25 - Lens-Crans (hillclimb)
June 4 - Hockenheim
June 15-18 - Rallye Genf
May 28 or June 25 - Monza
August 20 - St. Ursanne-Les Rangiers (hillclimb)
August 27 - Ollon Villars (hillclimb, also a round of the European championship)
September 10 - Mitholz-Kandersteg (hillclimb)
October 8 - Marchairuz (hillclimb)

It matches the list given by humphries except for the two rallies, that were surely parts of the championship, but are irrelevant for single seater racing.

This can be rated as „National Championship“. It looks like there was also a lower level „club“ championship, organised by SAR, and featuring other races. Part of the second level championship was - for instance - a "surprise" hillclimb, the surprise being the fact that the competitors weren't told the location of the race until the morning of race day...


Of the „Deutschlandrallye“ - only the first stage counted towards the Swiss championship. No single seater results, of course (Powerslide May 1967);

Slalom Payerne: both Bonnier - with the Cooper-Maserati - and Baumann - with the Cooper-ATS - competed in this race, and were beaten by Perrot’s Lotus 23. Strangely the Lotus 23 always started in the racing category, a later report states this was due to the „low windscreen“;

Wangen: The racing car class was won by Baumann in the Cooper-ATS. Bonnier was present again, he recorded the second fastest time but was penalised ten seconds for being off-track, so second place went to Perrot.
(Reports on Payerne and Wangen in Powerslide June/1967)

Monza & Hockenheim have already been reported.

Rallye Genf - no report, but as it is later stated, that two rallies counted towards the championship, this was very probably a championship round.

Lens-Crans - racing car class won by Bouquet in a 1100cc-Cooper. This was spoilt by rain, so faster cars couldn’t get appropriate results.
(Powerslide August 1967)

St. Ursanne-Les Rangiers - Overall winner: Jo Siffert, 2-litre-BMW, similar to the car driven by Hahne at the German GP (if not the same). Second place in the racing car class went to Habegger, who won the 1600cc-class.

Ollon-Villars - racing car class won by Derek Bell (Brabham F3) from Manfred Mohr (de Sanctis F3). No mention of Swiss competitors.

Mitholz-Kandersteg - called off after a fatal accident in practice, so there were really only four hillclimbs...
(the last three races all reported in Powerslide October 1967).

Marchairuz - Silvio Moser set fasted practice time with the Cooper-ATS, but retired from the race. Ftd went to Georges Gachnang in the Cegga-Ferrari (it is not clear, in which class he started). Racing cars up to 1600cc was won by Habegger.
(Powerslide November 1967)

I hope you can translate this into something useful. Interestingly, this contains starts of F1 cars, that are not even mentioned at oldracingcars.com.

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by hinnershitz

Final standings of the Swiss championship for racing cars, 1967:
1. Habegger - Lotus - 596,565 points
2. Perrot - Lotus 23C - 576,346
3. Frey - Brabham - 573,072
4. Büsch - Brabham - 565,879
5. Blum - Brabham - 564,335
6. Boucquet - Cooper - 559,511
7. Basler - Zarp - 532,114
8. W. Müller - Zarp - 516,295
9. Rey - Apal - 514,851
Please don't ask me to explain the points system, I never understood this myself.

Accepting this proviso, were the likes of Bonnier, Siffert, Moser, Vögele and Baumann ineligible for some reason? Or do their names appear further down the list? Or is this the 1600 class championship?

[hinnershitz]

I think "further down the list" must be correct, as they competed only occasionally, and it looks like the scoring system is rewarding reliability. The table was given by Powerslide as overall results, and I don't see a reason to doubt this, as it contains competitors from different classes: Habegger (1600cc), Bouquet (1100cc), Basler (Formula Vee), and so on.

[Tomas Karlsson]

Great information!
But could someone please tell me how these slalom trials were performed? Do they still exist?
How long was a normal slalom course? Were they penalised if they touched the cones or whatever they used? This is a type of racing that I am not at all familiar with. Nothing that I connected to F1 cars anyway....

[Jimmy Piget]

What was the type of Vogele's Brabham at Monza ? BT 11 ? or ...

And chassis number, if someone knows it.

Did Silvio Moser drove this car somewhere ?

[David McKinney]

Vögele used several 'Intercontinental' Brabhams over the years
I think it would have been his 23B that he used in 1967
The car Moser drove for Vögele was a later model

[bschenker]

I can’t tell the exact type of Vögeles Brabham on 1967 but hi was fitted with a Climax 2.5 or 2.7l and a FT200 gearbox. Silvio Moser never used this car.
In 1967 Silvio Moser raced for Vögele with the Cooper ATS on Siracusa (I), Silverstone (GB) and Marchairuz (CH); I think there was also a hill climb race in Austria. Charles Vögele himself also used this car in practise at Monza.
Slaloms normally on airports like on hill climbs with single starts on a track with ports like on ski marked with plastic pillions. To touch this pillions brings penalisation lost a port the disqualification. Normally two race with accumulation of time.
The Swiss championship is on Touring, GT, Sport and Monoposti all this classes its divided in categories by motor size, all this categories take the full points for a win.
The Powerslide for me was on of the best Motorsport magazine with a very good graphic, may by today to expensive. Powerslide was concentrated of circuit racing and rally, so I think its not the best source for the Swiss championship, better is Automobil Revue who its still possibly to find the result in all class and category sorted also by year.

[Nanni Dietrich]

Originally posted by hinnershitz
I'll try. The reports in Powerslide are indeed a bit inconsistent.
...

Mitholz-Kandersteg - called off after a fatal accident in practice, so there were really only four hillclimbs...
(the last three races all reported in Powerslide October 1967).

...

I hope you can translate this into something useful. Interestingly, this contains starts of F1 cars, that are not even mentioned at oldracingcars.com.

I seem to remember the accident happened to Goddy Winzenried, who lost his life at the wheel of his Triumph GT-6. Is it correct?

[bschenker]

Article from the Automobil Revue, of 14.09.1967

Translation better of someone with a better English

Zur Annullierung des 18. nationalen Bergrennens Mitholz—Kandersteg

Der Schweizer Automobilsport wird von der Reihe tödlicher Unfälle, welche dieses Jahr auf internationaler Ebene eine überdurchschnittliche Anzahl erreicht haben, nicht verschont. So verunfallte während dem Samstagtraining zum diesjährigen MIKA-Rennen der 49 Jahre alte Berner Fahrer Gody Winzenried tödlich, als sein Triumph GT 6 unterhalb der «Mürlikurve» von der Strasse abkam, 20 bis 25 m auf dem rechten Strassendamm weiterrutschte und dann gegen einen Baum prallte. Der Fahrer war auf der Stelle tot. Als Unfallursache wird ein Schaltfehler vermutet.
Aus Pietätsgründen beschloss hierauf die Rennleitung, nach Rücksprache mit den ACS- Sportkommissären, das Training abzubrechen und das auf Sonntag festgesetzte Rennen zu annullieren.

War es die richtige Lösung?

Dies hier sind die Fakten.
Vom rein humanitären Standpunkt aus betrachtet, war diese Lösung sicher die einzig richtige. Das weiteren muss man bedenken, dass sich nach dem Unfälle die meteorologischen Verhältnisse noch verschlech ........... -falls nicht eingehen. Wie steht es nun konnte das Risiko eines neuen Unfalls nicht eingehen. Wie steht es nun aber mit der Reaktion der Fahrer, mit der des Publikums? Es gibt hier ganz andere Töne zu hören.
Zuerst die Fahrer. In der Mehrheit sind die Fahrer mit diesem Entscheide nicht einverstanden. Argumente wie «jeder Fahrer muss wissen, dass er ein Risiko eingeht» und «solange kein Zuschauer verletzt wird, ist kein Grund zum Abbruch da» wurden unter anderem vorgebracht. Andere Konkurrenten gaben ebenfalls zu bedenken, dass diese Annullierung eines Meisterschaftslaufes den ganzen Ausgang der Rennsaison 1967 fälschen werde. Des weiteren sehe man nicht ein, wieso man im Falle Kanderstegs «zwei A/lasse und zwei Gewichte anwende»; in Ollon— Villars habe es ja ebenfalls einen Todesfall gegeben, ohne dass deswegen das Rennen abgebrochen worden sei.
Beim Publikum waren die Meinungen wiederum viel geteilter. Man war allgemein mit der von der Rennleitung getroffenen Lösung eher einverstanden. Kritiken gab es vor allem von den Besuchern, welche sich am Sonntag nach Kandersteg begeben wollten und die — natürlich — kein Rennen vorfanden; trotz den vom Veranstalter gemachten Anstrengungen, war es nicht möglich gewesen, in letzter Minute eine diesbezüglich orientierende Tafel aufzustellen.
Wir glauben, dass in Anbetracht der beiden Todesfälle von Ollon— Villars und Mitholz—Kandersteg vom ACS und vom SAR eine «Standardlösung» auf nationaler Ebene getroffen werden sollte. Man könnte dann rein numerisch und kalt rechnend festlegen, welche Lösung in diesem oder jenem Falle getroffen werden muss; der Veranstalter hätte dann auch seinerseits die nötige, schriftlich festgelegte Rückendeckung.
Dass eine Lösung getroffen werden muss, ist evident; es geht um die Existenz des heute schon begrenzten Schweizerischen Automobilsports.

-abe-

[Allen Brown]

This thread was a long time ago but I now have the results of all the 1967 races so can answer some the questions lest unanswered in this thread and confirm some others.

1. Yes, the Coppa "Automobil Revue" was 28 May, not 4 June as I originally had it on OldRacingCars.com.

2. As John said, Vögele had tried out Fritz Baumann's Cooper T77-ATS in practice but the engine failed so he had to retrieve his new Brabham BT23B from Bödele in time for the race.

3. Rafa - I don't think this should be treated as a non-championship F1. It was a race for cars counting towards the Rennwagen category of the Swiss Championship so included Group 8 and Group 9 (and apparently Group 7). The F1 car fitted into the Group 8 class. As John said, it was simply national-level club racing.

4. The reason Perrot's Lotus 23B may have gone into the Rennwagen class - together with a number of other sports cars - is that it didn't have all the equipment needed to satisfy Group 4 regulations. It looks like the Swiss Sportwagen class was for Group 4 only. So that would have left the non-Group 4 sports cars defaulting into Group 7 (two seater racing cars) which is presumably why they were thrown in with the G8/G9 cars. This would explain the reference to the cut-down windscreen - no windscreen wipers.

5. Vögele's Brabham was described as new and F2-based so definitely his BT23B. I don't think his BT11A had been seen since he wrapped it round a tree at Bourscheid in Sep 1966. It was chassis BT23B/2 Jimmy.

6. The points system was 100 points for the class winner and then percentages for the other placed drivers depending on their relative times. So if the winners completes the course in 100 seconds and the second place man in 105 seconds, the winner gets 100 points and the second placed person gets 95 pts. In some classes in some seasons, a driver in a lower capacity class could score extra points (130, later 115) for beating the fastest time of the larger class. That's why you see people scoring 726-ish points in touring car classes sometimes.

7. The reason Bonnier, Vögele and Baumann didn't appear in the final points table is that they didn't compete in enough events. In 1967, it was necessary to score in six events. It was quite common in the 1960s for the quickest drivers to be missing from the final tables for that reason.

Did I miss anything?