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First Lotus at the Brickyard


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#51 A E Anderson

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Posted 21 November 2005 - 04:39

Originally posted by teegeefla
A E Anderson -

did you ever build that model? If so, what did you use for a baseline model?


No, unfortunately.

As I got deeper into my passion for building Indy cars, picking up several other model car builders along the way in the late 1960's, we determined that our efforts had to have some criteria--as we were displaying our builds in the front show windows of a very large hobby shop here, each year, from May 1-June 1:

1) Any car we built for our display had to be one that had actually taken the green flag for the 500 mile race.

2) Our first concentration was to replicate as many 500 mile race winners as possible.

3) Second, we replicated as many pole-winning cars as we could, along with a special interest in "milestone" cars (those that broke the various speed barriers (100, 150, 200mph qualfifying speeds for example).

4) The technically interesting cars, the odd, the unusual.

This window display project, and the passion for building these models began in 1966, continued through 1983, after which that hobby shop closed. At the peak of this display, about 1979, there were 5 of us from Lafayette involved in this: Myself, Arthur DeCamp (son of John DeCamp, for years the statistician for the Indianapolis Motor Speedway Radio Network and the 500 Mile Race Broadcast), Alan Bingaman (now deceased), and Mark Wick (newspaper photographer and photo editor for Carl Hungness Publications in the late 1970's).

But, it would have been fun, and an interesting technical exercise to have built the Trackburner Turbine!

Art

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#52 A E Anderson

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Posted 21 November 2005 - 04:42

Originally posted by WINO
Art,

The E-Bay description of the car in the photo clearly describes it as a rear-engined Offy built by Moore for Jack Zink, although they get it all wrong by suggesting Gurney was destined to drive it in 1961.

Gurney tersted the Zink Lotus turbine in 1962. This was a completely different looking car.


WINO


Wino,

I would still submit that the John Zink Trackburner Turbine car chassis is too long, and too wide to have been even a modified Lotus. I suspect, if anything, Dennie Moore may well have used a Lotus as inspiration, but it would have been far, far easier (also probably cheaper too!) to have built an all-new tube frame chassis to accommodate the Turbine engine--those earlier ones were anything but small.

Art

#53 T54

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Posted 21 November 2005 - 05:32

but it would have been far, far easier (also probably cheaper too!) to have built an all-new tube frame chassis to accommodate the Turbine engine--those earlier ones were anything but small.


The car was indeed a modified Lotus 18/21 and not a completely new car, and close inspection of the existing pictures clearly shows this. The car was lenghtened, beefed up and the wheelbase was brought to regulations. Indeed the very same job that Joe Huffaker performed on the Cooper Indianapolis car when he lenghtened its chassis and shoe-horned the enormous Aston 6-cylinder engine into it for Ralph Liguori, then Pedro Rodriguez to drive at the speedway in 1963.
Now where did that Lotus come from should not be TOO hard to find... Somewhere I have an article of an Indianapolis newspaper from May 1963 with an interview of John Zink where he says clearly that they modified the Lotus chassis to fit the Boeing turbine.

#54 Seppi_0_917PA

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Posted 22 November 2005 - 02:48

As mentioned earlier in this thread, TNFer "Walter Zoomie " has a fantastic photo album on-line. He has a few pictures of the 1962 Zink Turbine car:

http://albums.photo....9795&p=60794056
http://albums.photo....9795&p=60794057
http://albums.photo....9795&p=60794058

These three are from the folder "Racing Nostalgia 4" and are followed by five pictures of early spring (March 1963) testing with Dan Gurney and the Lotus. Wow! Here's the index of his photos - well worth the time to look through:

http://albums.photo....mList?u=4025402

#55 gbl

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Posted 24 January 2006 - 22:06

Posted Image

This is a program showing Lloyd Ruby, according to another article this is the car he drove to pole at Trenton. However the car had the #26 in the F1 race, and is listed with #97 for the Trenton race (I also have a small picture of the #97 on a transporter). The photo in my F1 book looks a little bit different (no number on the side), so where was this photo taken and what number had the car at Trenton?

#56 WINO

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Posted 24 January 2006 - 22:37

The details in the photo are hard to see but when he had a choice, 26 was the number used by owner J.Frank Harrison on most of his cars, whoever drove them. The photo does not show the right-hand-side exhaust pipes that the Lotus 18 received after conversion to USAC standards, with the wheelbase stretched to 96 inches. The car ran with #97 at Trenton and it looks like the program shot dates from the car's Formula One days, before conversion. Most likely the 1961 U.S. Grand Prix or some test session.


WINO

#57 Charles Helps

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Posted 08 March 2006 - 11:56

Has anyone seen The Dynamic Films version of the 1962 Indianapolis 500, "The Indianapolis Challenge"? There is footage of both the yellow #52 Zink turbine car in practice in early May according to the blurb.

It would be good to find out more about this car and whether the chassis started as a Lotus.

#58 Gerr

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Posted 11 April 2007 - 19:22

Once again, while looking for something else.....ran across this incredible site with reports and data on the Zink turbine....

http://members.aol.c...trip-report.htm


Nothing about Lotus, at all.


WINO's comment "According to me the driver in the photo is Bill Cheesbourg." regarding the 1961 RE Offy pic is spot on.

#59 Jerry Entin

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Posted 12 April 2007 - 16:37

Gerr, Many thanks for sharing the detailed Trip Report by Leonard Williams. I am not sure what his background was, but it is surprising that he did not mention the Lotus chassis. Perhaps he had never seen one before. The claim of Troutman-Barnes having manufactured the independent suspension could refer to Zink having a stronger recast made of the notoriously weak Lotus parts.
The interesting book Indy's Wildest Decade by Alex Gabbard features a number of photos of the Lotus/Boeing.
all research Willem Oosthoek

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#60 Gerr

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Posted 15 April 2007 - 15:52

Originally posted by Jerry Entin
Gerr, Many thanks for sharing the detailed Trip Report by Leonard Williams. I am not sure what his background was, but it is surprising that he did not mention the Lotus chassis. Perhaps he had never seen one before. The claim of Troutman-Barnes having manufactured the independent suspension could refer to Zink having a stronger recast made of the notoriously weak Lotus parts.
The interesting book Indy's Wildest Decade by Alex Gabbard features a number of photos of the Lotus/Boeing.
all research Willem Oosthoek


Jerry, Leonard Williams didn't mention the Lotus chassis because the Zink "Track Burner" wasn't a Lotus, IMO.
I bought a couple of old magazines this weekend, that shed some light on this subjet.

HRM, June 1961, page 50.....has a pic of the semi-naked 1961 Zink RE ( shown in post #43) during its early construction. The text mentions it was built, by Dennie Moore, for a turbine and as that unit was not ready, they were going to try it with an Offy.

Another pic shows the uninstalled uprights and a-arms. The rear hub carrier is fabricated sheet and tubing (not at all Lotus like) and mentions that the front spindle is a midified Ford passenger car item.
The same Ford upright and spindle can be seen in the photo Seppi linked...
http://albums.photo....9795&p=60794057
....on the 1962 Zink. Again, not at all Lotus......

Motor Trend, June 1962, page 34....has photos of the 1962 Zink in the early construction stage. The first pic shows Boeing engineer Leonard Williams and Dennie Moore fitting the 502 turbine to the chassis, which looks identical to the 1961 up to the rear of the cockpit.
Another pic shows the revised rear suspension now with trailing arms and the T-B hubs and uprights.
The last pic, probably taken earlier, as the turbine isn't installed, shows Moore and Dan Gurney discussing the rear suspension.

#61 Jerry Entin

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Posted 15 April 2007 - 21:23

Gerr: This is from Willem Oosthoek:" Not having seen the photo you are referring to, I can't comment, but just looking at the cars externals, you can tell that the 1961 in post 43, not 46 and the 1962(Lotus looking in my view) versions are completley different. I doubt the chassis underneath is the same unit beyond the cockpit area. The 1961 car is much bulkier and it should be, it was originally designed in the mid 50's, as one of the photo captions in Len's article mentions.
Not that the cars may not have used the same suspension parts, in the case of the 1962 Zink perhaps replacing the original ones.
Dan Gurney mentioned a couple of times that it was a Lotus. And T54 has mentioned he has an article with John Zink saying the same thing."
all research Willem Oosthoek.

#62 Gerr

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 02:42

Jerry/Willem,
Re: "The 1961 car is much bulkier and it should be, it was originally designed in the mid 50's, as one of the photo captions in Len's article mentions."

Not so, what he said was:
"Actually the SAE paper and the original car design was done in 1956. The problem was we were way ahead of our time."
The original car design was the front-engined Kurtis shown on 1957 SAE page...Fig. 6
http://members.aol.c...00/SAEpaper.htm



Re: "Dan Gurney mentioned a couple of times that it was a Lotus. And T54 has mentioned he has an article with John Zink saying the same thing."

I think Gurney has been mis-quoted. All of these "quotes" are from recent books, not from contemporary publications, none of which refer to the Track-Burner as a Lotus, Lotus-based or using Lotus parts. Not R&T. Not HRM. Not C/D. Not MT. Neither does the Clymer yearbook, Fox's 500 history or Huntington's Indy design book. They do say the car was built by Dennie Moore.

T54 wrote "Somewhere I have an article of an Indianapolis newspaper from May 1963 with an interview of John Zink where he says clearly that they modified the Lotus chassis to fit the Boeing turbine."

Well, okay, but I would like to know what Lotus chassis this would be. It does not have the sheet metal bulkheads that the Lotus 18/20/21 chassis would have had. Some of the chassis tubes certainly aren't Lotus as you can easily read the stencil ZINK CO. 4401 SO. PEORIA.
The front suspension arms are fabricated, but are different than a Lotus and uses American Ford uprights and spindles (not a Lotus practice). The rear uprights and hubs as mentioned, were built by Troutman-Barnes ( to me, very like the T-B Chaparral uprights) and are nothing like a Lotus design.
The wheels aren't Lotus wobblies. The are similar to the T-B Chaparral in style but are 16" knock-offs.
The bodywork appears to be sheet metal, I think virtually all Lotus bodies were GRP, by this time.
The diff is a Halibrand, the brakes are generic Girling, the shocks generic Armstrong. Len Williams writes about Moore constructing the fuel tanks from scratch.

What Lotus parts were used ?

#63 Allen Brown

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 08:30

Fascinating thread guys. I have to say that it looks nothing like a Lotus to me but I'd be very interested to see that article that Philippe mentions from a May 1963 Indianapolis newspaper.

Allen

#64 Michael Oliver

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 12:57

Originally posted by Gerr
Jerry/Willem,
Re: "The 1961 car is much bulkier and it should be, it was originally designed in the mid 50's, as one of the photo captions in Len's article mentions."

Not so, what he said was:
"Actually the SAE paper and the original car design was done in 1956. The problem was we were way ahead of our time."
The original car design was the front-engined Kurtis shown on 1957 SAE page...Fig. 6
http://members.aol.c...00/SAEpaper.htm



Re: "Dan Gurney mentioned a couple of times that it was a Lotus. And T54 has mentioned he has an article with John Zink saying the same thing."

I think Gurney has been mis-quoted. All of these "quotes" are from recent books, not from contemporary publications, none of which refer to the Track-Burner as a Lotus, Lotus-based or using Lotus parts. Not R&T. Not HRM. Not C/D. Not MT. Neither does the Clymer yearbook, Fox's 500 history or Huntington's Indy design book. They do say the car was built by Dennie Moore.

T54 wrote "Somewhere I have an article of an Indianapolis newspaper from May 1963 with an interview of John Zink where he says clearly that they modified the Lotus chassis to fit the Boeing turbine."

Well, okay, but I would like to know what Lotus chassis this would be. It does not have the sheet metal bulkheads that the Lotus 18/20/21 chassis would have had. Some of the chassis tubes certainly aren't Lotus as you can easily read the stencil ZINK CO. 4401 SO. PEORIA.
The front suspension arms are fabricated, but are different than a Lotus and uses American Ford uprights and spindles (not a Lotus practice). The rear uprights and hubs as mentioned, were built by Troutman-Barnes ( to me, very like the T-B Chaparral uprights) and are nothing like a Lotus design.
The wheels aren't Lotus wobblies. The are similar to the T-B Chaparral in style but are 16" knock-offs.
The bodywork appears to be sheet metal, I think virtually all Lotus bodies were GRP, by this time.
The diff is a Halibrand, the brakes are generic Girling, the shocks generic Armstrong. Len Williams writes about Moore constructing the fuel tanks from scratch.

What Lotus parts were used ?


Gerr,

I'm with you on this one: the R&T report (September 62 edition, p70, very kindly sent to me recently by fellow TNFer JB Miltonian) says that the car was 'Lotus-like' but does not say it was a Lotus.

I have looked at a few examples of Lotus chassis from around that era, e.g. F1, F2, FJ and I would say, having seen 'body off' shots of the front of the chassis, that it might be 'Lotus-inspired' but the frame tube layout is quite different.

I too would love to see the May 1963 Indianapolis newspaper article...T54, over to you!

Michael

#65 gbl

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Posted 24 April 2007 - 17:50

There is a new photo on the IMS page:

http://www.indianapo...=50979&size=med

#66 arttidesco

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 00:48

Posted Image

Since this is a fascinating thread and most of the links are dead I thought I'd post these photo's by Ed Arnaudin taken in 1962 of what I believe to be Bill Cheesbourg, white helmet being the give away, in the John Zink Trackburner gas turbine car.

For what it's worth if anybody had any influence on the chassis design I believe it 'may' have been Frank Kurtis, reading from the last paragraph of page 48 and the last paragraph of the link, while the bodywork 'may' have been inspired by the Lotus 21.

Posted Image

I remember when a friend of mine was asked about a sudden increase in performance of his vehicle in a production car series many years ago, he mentioned that he had acquired a 'Brazilian Spec' engine and suddenly everyone was talking about acquiring a 'Brazilian Spec' engine for their car, perhaps Mr Zink had a similar sense of humour when mentioning the Lotus origins of his car ?

#67 arttidesco

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 01:03

I wrote to Len Williams the man from Boeing who worked on the Trackburner a couple of days ago asking if he had any recollection of any Lotus content in the #52 Boeing 502 powered Trackburner shown in the photo above.

Here is the response he honoured me with just now :-

"As regards the chassis, I guess you could say it was a second derivative of a Frank Curtis chassis. It was constructed in it's entirety by Denny Moore with the big decisions (rear engine) by Jack Zink and engine installation details (engine mounts, instruments, fuel system, etc by myself. Denny's construction experience was with the Curtis roadster and the AJ Watson modifications of the Curtis roadster. He was of the "good old boys" school of design and not too enthused with gas turbine engines and rear engine race cars but he was a meticulous craftsman and did an excellent job on the "Trackburner".

The car was well underway when I arrived in Tulsa with the turbine engine. to the best of my knowlege, there were no Lotus components used in the car's construction. The suspension was Troutman Barnes.

We did considerable development at the Zink ranch ( spring rate, sway bar sizing, shock absorber settings, caster camber settings, both front and rear, along with the engine controls in a short period of time. Setting a car up for high speed left hand turns is quite different from setting it up for road racing."

In the light of these comments I presume all reference to Lotus with respect to the #52 Trackburner is merely a miss use of the manufacturers name to refer to rear engine vehicle.... unless anyone else any other evidence ?

#68 Tim Murray

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 06:02

Nice work, Ralph. This must surely settle the argument.

#69 arttidesco

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 06:27

Nice work, Ralph. This must surely settle the argument.


I hope so, thanks for your help Tim :up:

#70 Allen Brown

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Posted 13 September 2014 - 17:54

Some more pictures of the 1962 Zink Trackburner from the Henry Ford collection on Flickr:

 

6732425239_ea7d58a807_z.jpg

1962Indianapolis500_101 by The Henry Ford, on Flickr

 

6732425991_be4663d031_z.jpg

1962Indianapolis500_108 by The Henry Ford, on Flickr

 

6732426223_9a4a472c0c_z.jpg

1962Indianapolis500_110 by The Henry Ford, on Flickr

 



#71 Allen Brown

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Posted 13 September 2014 - 20:35

And here's another one, showing a very different car.  What's this one?

 

6345880520_0ae0bec695_z.jpg

 

Dennie Moore, Jack Zink, Dan Gurney, and John Zink Racecar by Tulsa City-County Library, on Flickr



#72 Collombin

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Posted 13 September 2014 - 22:20

That's the Offy powered rear engined car that Zink also had.

There's a fine picture of it for sale on eBay (US) right now, taken in the Indy pitlane with what looks like Bill Cheesbourg at the wheel. Funny looking thing (the car, I mean).

#73 Seppi_0_917PA

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Posted 03 April 2015 - 19:28

Adding a couple things…(not that it changes the conclusion)…

From the Falconer/Nye Chaparral book (1992) describing the Chaparral 1...

"Wheels were 15in diameter, specially cast by Halibrand to a unique design for Troutman and Barnes. Rims came in a variety of sizes ranging from 5in, probably intended only as a space-saving spare, through 6, 7, and 8in. The author has some 9in rims given to him by Troutman but it is more likely that these were cast for John Zink's 1962 gas turbine-powered Indy car that used the Chaparral 1 running gear."



A Hot Rod Magazine article with a couple under-construction photos of the 1962 Zink turbine car:
http://wildaboutcars...at_Indy_1-6.PDF