135 replies to this topic

[arttidesco]

Imagine poor old Brett and Hans got a bit of whiplash and bruising for their troubles

I assume the chicane was altered before the next GP at the Glen in 1976 ?

[Tim Murray]

They reduced the height of the kerbing and widened it to open up the line a bit.

[David M. Kane]

hello, my name is david pote. i am currently trying to
get f1 driver brett lunger elected into the Delaware Sports hall of fame. I have basic information
on his F1 career, but need to get additional background info. I will be presenting his case for election on November 14 in Dover, De. Any, and I mean any information you can give me, especially
and personal recollections, would be greatly appreciated. As we all know, Lunger seems to be the
forgotten man in American F1 history, and I believe his election to the Delaware Sports Hall of Fame
is long overdue. Please help me right this oversight. Thank you very much for your time on this.
Info can also be sent to me directly at jrffries@hotmail.com

Did Brett ever get into the Delaware Sports Hall of Fame? Thanks.

[AAA-Eagle]

Today Brett celebrates his 70th B-Day!!! Being a favourite driver and good friend to many of us, let's extend our best wishes to Brett for many more years of good health, memorable experiences, and continued life success!!!

[JacnGille]

[raceannouncer2003]

Many happy returns.

 

 

With Howden Ganley at Legends of Riverside, 2010

 

Vince H.

Edited by raceannouncer2003, 15 November 2015 - 06:59.

[Manfred Cubenoggin]

Happy 70th, Brett! 

 

[ChrisJson]

Did Brett ever get into the Delaware Sports Hall of Fame? Thanks.

 

Hi David!

 

Unfortunately not. If someone wants to make another try

here´s the nomination form:

 

http://www.desports....omination-form/

 

Christer

[E1pix]

Happy Birthday, Brett!

(From the kid you bought several F5000 prints from at Road America in '76)


Thank You for your service, inspiration, and for saving Niki.

[William Hunt]

was there any reason why Brett Lunger always skipped the Monaco GP? He did almost all races in '76 & '77 but skipped Monte Carlo.
He only went there once, in 1978 in his brand new M26 McLaren, and did not pre-qualify.

Did he not feel comfortable driving there?

[Michael Ferner]

Those were the years when Monaco started only the top twenty qualifiers, so Lunger's chances of making the race were rather slim. Prize money was only paid to the top twenty, either, so if he didn't make the race there he wasn't making any money at all. Those thoughts must've entered the mind of a private Grand Prix entrant.

[john winfield]

Slightly OT but I remember Brett being very quick, along with David Hobbs, in the beautiful Carl Hogan F5000 Lolas in 1973. I saw them at the International Trophy meeting at Silverstone but they may also have raced elsewhere in the UK.

[William Hunt]

I wonder, Lunger was also sponsored by L&M cigarettes, was or is L&M from the same tobaco group as Chesterfield?

it's very unusual to see L&M sponsoring someone, they never were a brand that you saw in sponsorship deals

Edited by William Hunt, 16 July 2017 - 19:45.

[Tim Murray]

It's very unusual to see L&M sponsoring someone, they never were a brand that you saw in sponsorship deals

http://porschecarshi...d/917/21/69.jpg

https://s-media-cach...6016bb77af6.jpg

[StanBarrett2]

Ha, beat me to it Tim.

I know Jackie Stewart had trouble reading and writing, so maybe he thought he was being sponsored by another brand ;-)

[E1pix]

I wonder, Lunger was also sponsored by L&M cigarettes, was or is L&M from the same tobaco group as Chesterfield?

it's very unusual to see L&M sponsoring someone, they never were a brand that you saw in sponsorship deals

They sponsored lots of things vs in the States, including:
-- The L&M Formula 5000 Championship;
-- Two cars in Can-Am; the Jackie Stewart Lola T260 in 1971, and the Donohue and Follmer Porsche 917/10Ks in 1972.

[Marc Sproule]

I wonder, Lunger was also sponsored by L&M cigarettes, was or is L&M from the same tobaco group as Chesterfield?

it's very unusual to see L&M sponsoring someone, they never were a brand that you saw in sponsorship deals

 

yes.....

 

from wikipedia.......

 

"In 1999, Liggett sold the L&M, Lark and Chesterfield brands to Philip Morris Companies Inc."

[uechtel]

was there any reason why Brett Lunger always skipped the Monaco GP? He did almost all races in '76 & '77 but skipped Monte Carlo.
He only went there once, in 1978 in his brand new M26 McLaren, and did not pre-qualify.

Did he not feel comfortable driving there?

 

In the mid Seventies it became an issue that FOCA was trying to push out the "independents". The Monaco with its limited grid in particular was very strict on accepting entries not from everybody. More elaboration to this can be found in Mike Lang: "Grand Prix"
 

[E1pix]

Does anyone here know how to get a letter through to Brett?

Not trying to get private info, but would like to get a letter to him -- for the right reasons.

[ReWind]

This might help.

[Charlieman]

In the mid Seventies it became an issue that FOCA was trying to push out the "independents". The Monaco with its limited grid in particular was very strict on accepting entries not from everybody. More elaboration to this can be found in Mike Lang: "Grand Prix"

Monaco 1974: 25 starters and 2 DNS and 1 DNQ. Chris Amon in the Amon-Ford was a non-starter but Tim Schenken started in a Trojan. I assume that neither team was a member of F1CA (too early for FOCA). 1974 is too early, therefore, for F1CA to start pressurising race organisers.

 

Monaco 1975: 18 starters and 8 DNQ. Entries from Parnelli, Hill, Fittipaldi and Penske were all accepted -- and all unlikely to qualify as F1CA members.

 

Monaco 1976: 20 starters and 5 DNQ and 1 DNA (Mario, Lotus, Indy 500 conflict). Non F1CA: Ligier and Boro?

 

Monaco 1977: 20 starters and 6 DNQ. Private and rent-a-car entries with March and Hesketh chassis. It was hard to get on the grid: Art Merzario and Clay Regazzoni weren't quick enough.

 

Monaco 1978: 20 starters. The first year for pre-qualifying but privateers and new constructors still had a go. 6 DNPQ including Theodore, Martini and Merzario. 

 

Monaco 1979: Gianfranco Brancatelli was DNPQ in a Merzario. 

 

There is not much evidence that F1CA or the Monaco GP organisers pushed out independents or new teams in the 1970s. New teams backed by serious money like Ligier, Penske and Parnelli were given entries. They went away with money.

 

Racing economics changed a bit owing to, err, economics -- we saw cars with different banners depending on where they were racing -- but independents and new teams could have a go up until c.1980. There should be commemorative dates on the F1 wall calendar for when Bernie Ecclestone signed up the international TV deals, when somebody told Bernie that F1CA looked like a rude word, and when he set up the deal which excluded privateers. 

[William Hunt]

The reason Monaco had just 20 starters had more to do with it being a short and tight circuit, they wanted to decrease traffic, up until 1986 they just had 20 starters there

Edited by William Hunt, 18 July 2017 - 12:38.

[RA Historian]

The reason Monaco had just 20 starters had more to do with it being a short and tight circuit, they wanted to decrease traffic, up until 1986 they just had 20 starters there

.....and in the '50s, the number of starters was restricted to 16. I seem to recall an FIA rule at the time that restricted starters to eight cars per mile.

[Charlieman]

The reason Monaco had just 20 starters had more to do with it being a short and tight circuit, they wanted to decrease traffic, up until 1986 they just had 20 starters there

...but they had 25 starters in 1974.

[E1pix]

... this might help.

Thank You very much!

I've bookmarked this, for privacy could you delete your post?

Edited by E1pix, 18 July 2017 - 16:23.

[uechtel]

The reason Monaco had just 20 starters had more to do with it being a short and tight circuit, they wanted to decrease traffic, up until 1986 they just had 20 starters there

 

Yes of course, but this does not really help answer our question why Lunger did not place entries to the Monaco races.

 

 

Monaco 1974: 25 starters and 2 DNS and 1 DNQ. Chris Amon in the Amon-Ford was a non-starter but Tim Schenken started in a Trojan. I assume that neither team was a member of F1CA (too early for FOCA). 1974 is too early, therefore, for F1CA to start pressurising race organisers.

 

[...]

 

There is not much evidence that F1CA or the Monaco GP organisers pushed out independents or new teams in the 1970s. New teams backed by serious money like Ligier, Penske and Parnelli were given entries. They went away with money.

 

Racing economics changed a bit owing to, err, economics -- we saw cars with different banners depending on where they were racing -- but independents and new teams could have a go up until c.1980. There should be commemorative dates on the F1 wall calendar for when Bernie Ecclestone signed up the international TV deals, when somebody told Bernie that F1CA looked like a rude word, and when he set up the deal which excluded privateers. 

 

Well, maybe I can convince you with some quotes from Mike Lang:

 

1974 season overview: "...the other main problem which actually developed early in the season was the increasing number of newcomers to Grand Prix racing causing overcrowding. This eventually came to a head at the time of the French Grand Prix but a meeting between the Formula 1 (Constructors) Association and CSI representatives resolved the situation by both sides agreeing that while anyone could take part in practice only the fastest of a pre-determined number according to the length of the circuit would be allowed to take part in each race, although grids were generally limited to 25 cars."

 

Monaco 1974: "The huge entry seen in Belgium had caused considerable overcrowding, not only in terms of space in the paddock and pits but also on the track during practice. This had come about because of the sudden upsurge in the number of newcomers to the sport and because of it the Formula 1 (Constructors) Association felt that their members were being unnecessarily handicapped. As a result consulations took place with the organisers of the Monaco Grand Prix who were subsequently persuaded to restrict the number of entrants among non-members with the newest to arrive on the scene being first to be refused permission to participate. On this occasion it led to the non-appearance of the Finotto and Token teams although Tom Pryce later let the organisers know how he felt about being left out in the best possible way by driving to a resounding victory in the supporting Formula 3 event. Even with these two absentees and Williams having just one entry for Merzario there were still 28 drivers on the entry list fighting for the 25 available starting places as all the other teams were up to full strength."

 

Sweden 1974: "This year the entry was even bigger and to avoid overcrowding was restricted to 27 with some of the newer teams being refused permission to participate as at Monte Carlo."

 

Netherlands 1974: "For the third consecutive race the size of the grid was being restricted to 25 and, like the organisers of the Monaco and Swedish Grands Prix, the Dutch were intending to refuse certain entries. However, on learning that their entry was being refused for the second time in a fortnight, the Trojan team complained to the RAC, who in return took the matter to the CSI. This ultimately led to an official statement being made to the effect that in futire World Championship status would  be withdrawn from an organiser not allowing anyone the right to practise for a Grand Prix even if it was necessary to restrict the number of starters in the actual race. Naturlally the Dutch immediately rescinded and the Trojan team were made to feel every bit as welcome as the other 27 entries that materialized."

 

France 1974: "Because of it being only 3.289 kim in length the size of the grid was being restricted to 22 but with 30 antries arriving the Formula 1 Association (led by Bernie Ecclestone of Brabham and Max Mosley of March) was complaining of overcrowding again in spite of the CSI´s statement made prior to the Dutch GP."

Edited by uechtel, 19 July 2017 - 09:28.

[uechtel]

Unfortunately for 1975 Lang does not further elaborate on the developments, but at least this passage in his report about the Monaco race suggests, that there was at last some further pressure on restricting not only grid size but also the entry list: "Another major step [for increased safety after the catsatrophic accident at Montjuich] taken at the suggestion of the Ferrari team was to reduce the number of starters from the originally intended 26 to 18, and it was also decided to stagger the grid in such a way that although there would still be two rows of cars the cars themselves would be spaced 12 metres behind each other so as hopefully to avoid another first corner shunt. The reduction in the size of teh field, of course, meant that the question of qualkifying arose for an entry of 26 had been accepted,"

[William Hunt]

My Lang Grand Prix books are amongst my favourites in my book collection, it's so sad that a new one never came out after the 1984 season, they were the very best reference.

Strangely enough the German GP of 1952 of my Lang GP book does not mention lap times

Edited by William Hunt, 19 July 2017 - 01:57.

[uechtel]

And finally, in 1976 we come closer to the answer to our question: "After seeing the large entries for the Spanish and Belgian Grands Prix and having decided on a grid size of twenty, the Automobile Club de Monaco had limited the entry for their race to 25. However, with Mario Andretti taking part in the Indi 500-mile race and Brett Lunger idle until a new Surtees TS19 had been completed now that his original had been sold to Henri Pescarolo, the only effect this had was the non-appearance of the RAM Racing team."

[uechtel]

1977: "However, with only 20 starting places being made available on the grid the Automobile Club de Monaco had restricted entry for their race to 25 which led to a number of privateers being absents from the ranks and there was also no sign of the Stanley-BRM team."

 

Also some further notes from later in the season

 

France 1977: "Like the 1974 race the size of the grid was being restricted to 22 due to the smallness of the circuit and not for the firts time this season arguments had been going on between the race organisers and the Formula 1 Constructors Association over the rights of non-Association members to take part in qualifiying. In fact, things had gone a stage further on this occasion with the non-Association members having resorted to legal action and the end result was that a total of 29 drivers were invited along even though seven of them would still fail to get into the race."

 

Britain 1977: "The growing numbers of independents trying to take part in the recent rces and the feelings of the Formula 1 Constructorsd Association about the over-crowding effects that this was having on its members had prompted the RAC and BRDC to come up with the rather novel idea of holding a special day of practise solely for non-Association members. The idea was, that the fastest five during two 90 minute practise sessions out of the original entry of seventeen would then be allowed to go forward into the normal practise sessions, thus giving everyone who wanted the opportunity of having a crack at qualifying and, at the same time, keeping the numbers for official practise down to a reasonable level. So, to all intents and purposes, the Siloverstone weekend [...] began on Wednesday morning with a final total of fourteen drivers arriving to earn the right of joining FICA members the following day. Among them was the Stanley-BRM´s newly appointed driver Guy Edwards [...] as the Bourne team had now been edged out of the Constructors Association to make way for Renault."

 

Netherlands 1977: "Like the British Grand Prix, the entry list for the Dutch race was overflowing and so the organisers decided to follow the lead set by their British counterparts and hold a spcial day of practise in order to reduce the number of drivers taking part in official practice. This duly took place on Tuesday befeore the race but proved to be an abortive exercise as it was subsequently declared null and void after Merzario, one of the nine drivers nominated, refused to take part, the Italian insisting that there was nothing in the rules requiring him to qualify for the right of participating in official parctice. Conseuqently everything had to start from scratch on Friday morning with no less than 34 drivers hoping to be among the 26 fastets at the end of the follwoing day."

Edited by uechtel, 19 July 2017 - 09:29.

[uechtel]

USA (West) 1978: "So once again [...] there was a total of thirty drivers ready to take part, but because of the nature and length of trhe circuit the size of the grid had to be restricted to 22. Moreover only 26 were going to take part in official practice, as the organisers had agreed to accept 22 drivers from the Formula One Constructors Association and, in much the same manner as that adopted by the organisers of the 1977 British Grand Prix, had arranged to hold a special pre-qualifying session to select the fastest four out of the other eight. After an hour long thrash early on Friday morning Patrese, Stommelen, Merzario and Lunger qualified for the right to take part in official practice, while Rosberg, Rebaque, Ongais and Daly were the ones to fail."

 

Monaco 1978: "But, as had been the case at Long Beach, the entry list was over-subscribed and with room for only 20 starters on the grid and with only 24 drivers permitted to take part in practice there had been another 'weeding-out'-exercise before official practice could begin. In all eight drivers were affected - it should have been nine but Danny Ongais failed to turn up - and of those  only two were being allowed to go forward into official practice as twenty drivers from the Formula One Constructors Assocation had already been accepted while the Automobile Club de Monaco had exercised its right to select another two by invitation, actually Jabouille and Jones. So to sort out things a pre-qualifying run, divided into two half-hour sessions, took place on Thursday morning and a pretty hectic time it was, too, with Daly crashing both Hesketh 308E, one in each session, and Rebaque also overdoing things in a newly-acquired Lotus 78. Merzario, meanwhile, never got beyond the first session due to fuel pressure trouble with his car and although Arnoux persevered with the Martini he could make little impression as the engine was obviously down on power. This left Patrese, Stommelen, Rosberg and Lunger, but Lunger could hardly be expected to do well as besides his being his first drive around Monaco he was also in a brand new car, a freshly built McLaren M26, and despite trying really hard with the Theodore, Rosberg could do nothing to prevent the two Arrows drivers from more or less dominating both sessions."

 

Belgium 1978: "the driver line-up was otherwise unaltered and in all 28 of them were present for the start of official parctice on Friday morning with only Merzario and Rebaque missing, these two having been eliminated during a special pre-qualifying session held the previous Thursday for drivers other than FOCA members and Jones, Jabouille, Patrese and Daly who had been invited to take part in official practice without having to qualify for the right."

 

Germany 1978: "Even before official practice started two drivers, Arnoux and Lunger, had already been eliminated in a special pre-qualifying session held during pre-race testing but this still left 28 of them to compete for the 24 places on the grid."

[uechtel]

My Lang Grand Prix books are amongst my favourites in my book collection, it's so sad that a new one never came out after the 1984 season, they were the very best reference.

Strangely enough the German GP of 1952 of my Lang GB book does not mention lap times

 

Indeed the Lang books are special as they are the only source known to me which is dealing with such 'backstage' issues like  we discuss here.

[Charlieman]

Thanks for your contributions, uechtel. I'm not familiar with the Mike Lang books but I'll keep my eyes open for them in the future.

 

Treatment of the independents and new constructors was very inconsistent between race organisers, as you say. Some of the requests for numbers to be limited seem to be practical ones -- track space, availability of pit garages -- rather than about F1CA taking on the role of the FIA. 

 

Denying entries to the newest applicants clearly created a Catch 22 situation. Teams weren't allowed to enter qualifying because they had never been to a race before... And some new entrants such as Parnelli and Ligier were more welcome than Martini for example.

 

There must also have been a conflict of interest at March. Wearing his F1CA hat, Max Mosley backed limits on the number of privateers. At the same time, March sold F1 cars.

[uechtel]

Thanks for your contributions, uechtel. I'm not familiar with the Mike Lang books but I'll keep my eyes open for them in the future.

 

.

 

 

Indeed unlike many more glamouros publications they are worth every cent of its 12 (hey, where´s the British Pound symbol on my keyboard?) investment

https://www.abebooks...ix/author/lang/

 

It´s certainly not the No 1 for statistic fans, but at least in the reports from 1974 and later the narratives are full with interesting background informations about politics, between the teams, within the teams, between teams and sponsors, between the organisations etc. Also there are detailed descriptions of changes in the drivers lineups and modifications to the cars, altogether my most valuable source in the pre-internet days.

 

 

 

Treatment of the independents and new constructors was very inconsistent between race organisers, as you say. Some of the requests for numbers to be limited seem to be practical ones -- track space, availability of pit garages -- rather than about F1CA taking on the role of the FIA. 

 

Denying entries to the newest applicants clearly created a Catch 22 situation. Teams weren't allowed to enter qualifying because they had never been to a race before... And some new entrants such as Parnelli and Ligier were more welcome than Martini for example.

 

There must also have been a conflict of interest at March. Wearing his F1CA hat, Max Mosley backed limits on the number of privateers. At the same time, March sold F1 cars.

 

Your last thought is really interesting. Well, maybe they first sold the cars before the customer only then would realize the situation. From reading other March stories this would not surprise me...

 

Also I think developments like this lead to efforts like the introduction of the Shellsport and later Aurora series to give the independents some other playgrounds where they would not interfere with the 'proper' teams.

 

Besides that the FOCA arguments did of course have some practical background. If you want something you would also look for positive arguments. Nevertheless the purpose of the FOCA organisation was to give their members a stronger position in negotiations with the race organisers, so it is clear, that they adopted a "our members come first" attitude. This had already started in the sixties, with the treatment of the BRP team for example, when there had been clearly no danger of overcrowding yet. I think it was simple, that with limited 'resources' available (pit area, limitation of grid positions and not to forget the starting money) they would try to get the most of it, of course at the cost of those, who did not have such a strong position.

 

And I also don´t think it had been that easy, that the fight was simply between 'new' and 'established' teams. As you can see at the 1978 quote I gave (BRM being replaced by Renault) it was probably rather a question of reputation.

[ReWind]

... could you delete your post?

 

I don’t think that it is necessary. I provided a link to a website which is for all to see regardless of my posting here.

[E1pix]

Hmmm... yet you don't use your real name here -- to keep *your* privacy.

I'll reach Brett through some other means, thanks.