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Why did Marlboro sponsor two teams at the same time?


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#1 biercemountain

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Posted 07 October 2004 - 13:11

Anybody know what possessed Marlboro to sponsor both McLaren AND Alfa Romeo at the same time back in the 80's?

I'll never forget the first time I saw a photo of the Marlboro liveried Alfa Romeo. I thought, "That's the ugliest McLaren I've ever seen"

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#2 Ray Bell

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Posted 07 October 2004 - 13:27

Marlboro sponsored more than just two teams...

They had various drivers under contract as well.

But I think the answer to your base question also involves different branches of the company.

#3 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 07 October 2004 - 13:49

Andrea de Cesaris as I recall it was the son of the European or Italian Marlboro President, or at least close to the top guy. I belive that the Project 4 when in Formula " were actually funded by the European part of Marlboro (or Phillip Morris). This part of the reason that Andrea were one of the McLaren drivers when Ron Dennis and Project 4 took over McLaren.

Andrea were not a poor driver, but obviously not a great driver either. He could not stay at McLaren with the ambitions that Ron Dennis had for the team, so when he was let go he had to find an other seat.

Alfa Romeo were in to getting a F1 team once more, rather than "only" being an engine manufacturer, and Andrea were entrusted as being the Italien (Italian?) driver in the team. he actually managed to lead at lest two races, and took pole at Spa I think it was. The team never got it all together, and the engines were to fragile so the effort floundered.

This spelled the end for a two team sponsorship by Marlboro.

--

All of this is based on nothing but how I recall the facts, it may be nothing but madeup imaginary facts. I am willing to be toid wrong.

:cool:

#4 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 07 October 2004 - 13:58

Well I could not help it. based on the unreliable details on a number of F1 history sites I had it somewhat wrong. The team ran with Marlboro sponsorship before de Cesaris came on baord, and actually sc ored a podium in Las Vegas.

Andrea is mentioned as "Marlboro Italy protege".

:cool:

#5 Garagiste

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Posted 07 October 2004 - 14:01

There was also Scuderia Italia - and did they not begin to sponsor Ferrari whilst still with McLaren or is memory playing tricks?
Multi car sponsorship happens a fair bit though - Red Bull and Puma spring to mind as current examples.

#6 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 07 October 2004 - 14:03

Puma sponsor mainly drivers, at the most supply gear. In the case of Red Bull they've sponsored one team, Sauber, but sponsored drivers Klien and Bernoldi at Jaguar and Arrows respectively. As well as giving most of the grid drinks bottles.

#7 Garagiste

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Posted 07 October 2004 - 14:32

There has still been Red Bull branding on the Arrows and Jaguar Cars whilst they were major sponsors of other teams though. Puma too is present on several cars, albeit in places where we seldom see it.
My memory isn't that dreadful - a quick spin around FORIX and 1996 was the year I was thinking of above.

#8 FLB

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Posted 07 October 2004 - 14:32

Might not the 'uneasiness' between Teddy Mayer and Marlboro at the time (1979-1980) have played a role in Alfa getting the sponsorship? I've been wondering about that for a while. I can very well see Marlboro hedging its bets by going to a second F1 team in case McLaren didn't improve or if Mayer somehow managed to win the power struggle he had with John Hogan.

#9 Rainer Nyberg

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Posted 07 October 2004 - 14:40

I remember back in 1989 just about every car had cigarette sponsorship, either from Marlboro or Camel (five teams each). In many cases they only paid for the drivers retainer. When Camel came into Tyrrell, then Marlboro supported Alboreto lost his drive (only to race for Camel supported Larrousse Lola later in the season!).

Marlboro sponsorship could be seen on cars from :

Dallara
McLaren
Ferrari
Rial
Onyx

Camel sponsorship on following cars :

Tyrrell
Larrousse Lola
Benetton
Minardi
AGS

Other cars with cigarrette sponsorship were

Williams (Barclay)
Ligier (Gitanes)
Zakspeed (West)

#10 Don Capps

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Posted 07 October 2004 - 14:49

Note the timing of when Marlboro sponsored the McLaren and Alfa Romeo efforts....

#11 biercemountain

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Posted 07 October 2004 - 15:21

It looks like Marlboro sponsored both Alfa and McLaren during the 1980, 1981 and 1982 seasons.

While the livery on the McLaren cars remained rather consistent, the Alfa's started out with much more dayglow orange than white and slowly became more and more similar to the McLaren markings.

The reds used on the two teams does appear to be quite different. The Alfa color being more orange than the McLaren dayglow red.

#12 Ray Bell

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Posted 07 October 2004 - 15:24

Originally posted by Don Capps
Note the timing of when Marlboro sponsored the McLaren and Alfa Romeo efforts....


Too subtle, Don...

#13 FLB

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Posted 07 October 2004 - 15:31

Originally posted by Don Capps
Note the timing of when Marlboro sponsored the McLaren and Alfa Romeo efforts....


I just noticed something else (beside the Mayer-Hogan thing) :

McLaren was a FOCA team whereas Alfa Romeo was a FISA team (a grande costruttore).


Hmmm...

#14 fullcourseyellow

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Posted 07 October 2004 - 16:06

Originally posted by Rainer Nyberg
Camel sponsorship on following cars :

Tyrrell
Larrousse Lola
Benetton
Minardi
AGS


That was very good information, but don't forget the entirely Camel-clad Lotus-Judd. :)

#15 Rainer Nyberg

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Posted 07 October 2004 - 16:19

Yes, of course Lotus had full title sponsorship, I have it also written down on the post-it beside me, but somehow I failed to type it down...!

Anyway Lotus did very well with both JPS and Camel, to integrate their title sponsorship along with the lesser sponsors, and make their cars look great!

#16 Don Capps

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Posted 07 October 2004 - 17:00

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Too subtle, Don...


Sorry, I was obviously having flashbacks....

#17 Vicuna

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Posted 07 October 2004 - 19:39

Can you think of anything more hideous than a 250F or D50 with Marlboro markings?

The front engined cars were beautiful in the 50s but I do wonder how much our nostalgia towards them is generated from their 'clean appearance'.

#18 SJC

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Posted 07 October 2004 - 20:31

Marlboro (a Phillip Morris product, originally aimed at women) have been one of motorsports most enduring sponsors, starting in the 1972 F1 season with BRM.

From what I have read it seems Lotus had provoked a renaming madness with "Gold Leaf Team Lotus" - which arguably reached its nadir with the "Brooke Bond Oxo-Rob Walker-Team Surtees"!

Was the Marlboro brand involved in U.S. motorsports before '72?? (Don?)

SJC

#19 Don Capps

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Posted 07 October 2004 - 20:44

The Marlboro National Championship Trail was first run during the 1971 season.

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#20 Twin Window

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Posted 07 October 2004 - 22:32

Originally posted by SJC

Marlboro ... have been one of motorsports most enduring sponsors, starting in the 1972 F1 season with BRM.

As a title sponsor, yes - but it wasn't the beginning. Jo Siffert carried Marlboro logos on his March 701 and a patch on his overalls throughout the 1970 season.

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Was the Marlboro brand involved in U.S. motorsports before '72?

Regarding Don's info, did Marlboro have personal deals with Denny Hulme and Peter Revson for 1971, or have I instead seen 'Marlboro Trail' orientated patches on their overalls?

Siffert continued his personal deal via a patch on his overalls for F1 in 1971 plus branding on his Can-Am Porsche that same season.

Regarding the Marlboro tie-up with Ferrari, that began in 1973 when they took over as the the main personal sponsor of their two drivers. Ickx dropped another cigarette brand Kent in favour of Marlboro, and Merzario did likewise dropping his former ciggie sponsor Astor. The cars first carried branding in 1983, with larger areas taken up on the driver's helmets too.

#21 Don Capps

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Posted 07 October 2004 - 22:41

The USAC National Championship Trail was renamed the "Marlboro National CHampionship Trail" when Marlboro become the series sponsor beginning with the 1971 season. This was direct result of the banning of cigarette commercials on American television as of 1 January 1971 -- the last such commercial, by the way, was a Marlboro commercial....

L&M was sponsoring the SCCA Formula A series and R.J. Reynolds was using Winston to sponsor the NASCAR Grand National Division and Camel came on board for the IMSA GT championship -- all this within the 1970 to 1972 timeframe.

#22 biercemountain

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Posted 07 October 2004 - 22:56

Originally posted by Don Capps
L&M was sponsoring the SCCA Formula A series…


1971 was the year L&M sponsored Jackie Stewart's Lola T260 in his bid for the Can-Am championship.

What's become of that car anyway? I always thought it was a powerful looking sportscar with a great livery.

#23 Megatron

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Posted 07 October 2004 - 23:29

A couple of reasons for tobacco companies sponsoring multiple teams

1. They face increasingly few other options

2. One can't assume they are from the same branch. I know AGS's small Camel sponsorship came from Camel Germany, title sponsors usually came from the main branch or at least the main European branch.

I remember a fund set up to aid Marlboro France's drivers after tobacco ads were banned in the early 1990s.

Marlboro gave Mario the option of either McLaren or Alfa Romeo in 1981. Mario chose Alfa based on the late season performance in 1980 and that McLaren had been in a sevre decline for several years. On paper it looked like a great move but McLaren got its act together with Project 4 and Alfa really didn't go anywhere.

Marlboro could be the "Main" sponsor for at least two teams on several occasions

Early 70s, BRM (or was it McLaren?) and Iso Marlboro

Early 80s McLaren and Alfa Romeo

Early 90s McLaren and Dallara (Ok, they weren't that big on the Dallara but they had the rear wing and the airbox which is enough for me)

Early to mid 90s, McLaren and Ferrari

As far as Indy Car, I can't recall Marlboro being the absolute main sponsor but there were a lot of "World Championship Team" logos everywhere and a few Europeans brought over money which had Marlboro on the cars and of course their uniforms/helmets.

A lot of the helmet deals don't have much money going to the team itself but the team can or cannot allow it, ala Alberto Marlboro/Camel confusion in 1989 with Alesi bringing Camel in with Alberto a Marlboro driver.

The Walker entry for Christan Fittapaldi at Indy in 1995 was entered "Chapeo (or something) Marlboro", that could have had something to do with the Penske DNQs. Finished second.

Rahal qualifed the car that Emmo won the 93 Indy 500 with with full Marlboro livery (with "Geunine Draft" on the sidepods) in 1994 after his Lola Honda wasn't up to speed. The livery was changed to MGD colors for Raceday. Of course, Miller and Marlboro were from the same company.

I think the original deal with Ferrari was put together by Hogan which basically had Marlboro pay the drivers salaries in return for at first suttle and later large and eventually primary sponsorship on the car.

I was always fond of the drivers name on the Marlboro logo. I hated it when they got rid of that.

The last time I can recall Marlboro appearing on something other than a Ferrari would be the Arrows of Pedro Dinz in 1997 on the rear wing endplate and the helmet.

Marlboro was on a spending spree from the mid 70s to the mid 90s as far as racing goes. They would still be if not for increasing restrctions on tobacco ads in various countries.

I think they changed the Marlboro livery on the Penske car from "Marlboro" to "Marlboro Team Penske" to try and get the gov to lay off what is essentially their only US sport sponsorship left and also to make it somewhat easier for other sponsors to advertise. I saw a Toyota add in a mag with Penske's car on it with full livery but with the shot the way it was, you couldn't tell it was "Marlboro Team Penske". That part is just my theory.

Marlboro is suspected to be one of if not the only tobacco company to stay in F1 after the big 06 ban. They want the entire car and would put warning labels or messages on the car. This approach would tell people who backed the car even though there was no Marlboro on it. They are rumored to be willing to pay a riduclous amount of money to have the whole car even if they can only advertise at perhaps seven or eight races a year.

Marlboro will never disapear from racing however. Every book, picture, magazine, etc that has a Marlboro logo on it will live on long after no matter how severe a ban sets in.

#24 fullcourseyellow

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Posted 07 October 2004 - 23:38

Originally posted by Garagiste
Multi car sponsorship happens a fair bit though - Red Bull and Puma spring to mind as current examples.

Benetton also sponsored both Alfa Romeo and Toleman in 1985, and then bought out Toleman altogether at the end of the year.

#25 Ray Bell

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Posted 07 October 2004 - 23:40

Tobacco companies adopted a real 'spending spree' approach when they lost the ability to spend their advertising dollars on television... it continued until they began their more insidious approach... to buy up real live businesses that did things for the common good... like food manufacturers (Nabisco, for instance).

Anyone wants to learn more should read Larry White's book The Smoking Business... it's a real eye-opener!

#26 JohnB

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Posted 07 October 2004 - 23:52

Originally posted by Vicuna
Can you think of anything more hideous than a 250F or D50 with Marlboro markings?


Fair comment, but can you imagine an MP4/4 in various shades of grey!

#27 Pascal

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Posted 07 October 2004 - 23:58

Originally posted by JohnB

Fair comment, but can you imagine an MP4/4 in various shades of grey!

Why grey when McLaren's traditional colour is orange?

#28 Ray Bell

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Posted 08 October 2004 - 00:03

Though they first wavered between Cooper colours and then cream with a green noseband and centre stripe. Bruce's Serenissima-powered GP car was a maroon, IIRC.

#29 JohnB

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Posted 08 October 2004 - 00:07

Sorry Pascal, I was meaning like the modern McLaren-Mercedes (ie. terrible IMHO).

Maybe it's just me, but I used to love the Marlboro livery. Probably just because the late '70s-'80s was when I started to see motor racing 'live' (ie. on the TV).

Which isn't to say I don't appreciate, and agree with, Vicuna's original point.

#30 theunions

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Posted 08 October 2004 - 02:11

Originally posted by Megatron
The Walker entry for Christan Fittapaldi at Indy in 1995 was entered "Chapeo (or something) Marlboro", that could have had something to do with the Penske DNQs. Finished second.


The #15 (and #15T at Indy) were always on the 1995 entry lists (per the Autocourse CART and Hungness 500 yearbooks) as "Marlboro Chapeco Special" (so it has nothing to do with the Penske Indy DNQs), even though the Marlboro markings were never as large (throughout the entire season) as Chapeco on the cockpit sides or BCN on the sidepods.

#31 Gary C

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Posted 08 October 2004 - 02:17

'Why grey when McLaren's traditional colour is orange?'
Grey (or silver) is West's livery,

#32 Pascal

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Posted 08 October 2004 - 02:24

Originally posted by Gary C

Grey (or silver) is West's livery,

Really?

Posted Image
Zakspeed F1 Team 1985, title sponsor: West

Posted Image
Zakspeed F1 Team 1987, title sponsor: West



#33 Mac Lark

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Posted 08 October 2004 - 02:54

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Though they first wavered between Cooper colours and then cream with a green noseband and centre stripe. Bruce's Serenissima-powered GP car was a maroon, IIRC.


Wrong - the 1966 cars were white.

I've had two different mechanics that worked on the car give me different versions of the colour of the stripe. One says black, the other says very very dark green.

Both started out being adamant they were right and then wondered if the guy had a better memory...

A bit like the Rindt helmet discussion.

The 1967 BRM powered cars might have looked more maroon (but were red) but I wonder Ray if the maroon McLaren you saw was the Piers Courage car in the 1968 Tasman series.

#34 Ray Bell

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Posted 08 October 2004 - 03:00

You might be right, it might have been the BRM-engined car... definitely not the Piers Courage car, which was gold and maroon, with white being added by Niel Allen.

As for the cream, perhaps ivory? This was the colour of the cars in the Tasman Cup series in 1965, which were Coopers, of course. They definitely had a dark green band and stripe, not black. I only ever saw photos, of course, of the Ford V8 (destroked Indy engine) car...

#35 Pascal

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Posted 08 October 2004 - 03:14

Originally posted by fullcourseyellow

Benetton also sponsored both Alfa Romeo and Toleman in 1985, and then bought out Toleman altogether at the end of the year.

That is not entirely correct.

After the 1984 season and their late switch to Michelin which were on their way out of F1, Toleman found themselves without a tyre supplier for 1985. Goodyear was unable to provide tyres to an additional team, and Pirelli didn't want anything to do with Toleman after their defection the year before. The new Rory Byrne car was therefore unable to race, and the single Toleman driver (Teo Fabi) was left pacing the paddock during the first few races of the season. Things started to change in Monaco. Benetton was largely unsatisfied with their partnership with Alfa Romeo, and probably knew that it would be the marque's last season in F1. Since they were trying to find a way to reinforce their presence in the sport, Toleman was a golden opportunity and Pirelli the carrot they needed. The Italian tyre maker would supply Toleman only if there was a change of ownership, so Benetton became the team's saviour. That is why the previously spotless white car started receiving Benetton decals on Friday. The rest is history...

Posted Image
The Toleman in Monaco, before the Benetton buy-out. Note Rory's fashionable sideburns on the top right corner.

Posted Image
The Toleman wing showing a clear absence of main sponsor.

#36 Mac Lark

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Posted 08 October 2004 - 03:24

Originally posted by Ray Bell
You might be right, it might have been the BRM-engined car... definitely not the Piers Courage car, which was gold and maroon, with white being added by Niel Allen.

As for the cream, perhaps ivory? This was the colour of the cars in the Tasman Cup series in 1965, which were Coopers, of course. They definitely had a dark green band and stripe, not black. I only ever saw photos, of course, of the Ford V8 (destroked Indy engine) car...


Therein lies another story/mystery Ray

The Bruce McLaren Tasman Cooper (No 47) had a green stripe whereas the Phil Hill car (No 48) had a blue stripe.

According to some people...

And some photographs...

MAC

#37 Mac Lark

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Posted 08 October 2004 - 03:39

Originally posted by JohnB


Fair comment, but can you imagine an MP4/4 in various shades of grey!


Can one of you photoshop experts conjure up a front engined Ferrari (please don't do it to a 250F or D50) in Marlboro colours just so we can all see how stupid it looks?

#38 Mac Lark

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Posted 08 October 2004 - 04:31

It actually starts:

Bless me Father for I have sinned...

And you have Pete - good work.

It emphasises my point perfectly :up:

#39 Mac Lark

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Posted 08 October 2004 - 04:34

What happened to it Pete?

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#40 fullcourseyellow

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Posted 08 October 2004 - 04:49

Originally posted by Pascal

That is not entirely correct.

After the 1984 season and their late switch to Michelin which were on their way out of F1, Toleman found themselves without a tyre supplier for 1985. Goodyear was unable to provide tyres to an additional team, and Pirelli didn't want anything to do with Toleman after their defection the year before. The new Rory Byrne car was therefore unable to race, and the single Toleman driver (Teo Fabi) was left pacing the paddock during the first few races of the season. Things started to change in Monaco. Benetton was largely unsatisfied with their partnership with Alfa Romeo, and probably knew that it would be the marque's last season in F1. Since they were trying to find a way to reinforce their presence in the sport, Toleman was a golden opportunity and Pirelli the carrot they needed. The Italian tyre maker would supply Toleman only if there was a change of ownership, so Benetton became the team's saviour. That is why the previously spotless white car started receiving Benetton decals on Friday. The rest is history...

Hmm I didn't know about that... Thanks for the interesting info! :)

#41 Ray Bell

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Posted 08 October 2004 - 07:15

Originally posted by Mac Lark
Therein lies another story/mystery Ray

The Bruce McLaren Tasman Cooper (No 47) had a green stripe whereas the Phil Hill car (No 48) had a blue stripe.

According to some people...

And some photographs...


Another job for John Ellacott's brilliant photographs?

I'm sure I would have noticed if they had different colours... and I saw them three weekends in a row, both from a distance and close enough to sit in them.

#42 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 08 October 2004 - 07:34

Originally posted by Ray Bell


Another job for John Ellacott's brilliant photographs?

I'm sure I would have noticed if they had different colours... and I saw them three weekends in a row, both from a distance and close enough to sit in them.


Could it be Blue for Hill showing the Blue racing colors, and Green for for McLaren showing the British racing green??

I underdstand thar Mclaren were from New Zealand, but maybe being based in the U.K. could have an effect.

:cool:

#43 Ray Bell

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Posted 08 October 2004 - 07:38

That certainly would have been the reason if it were the case... but I'm not at all sure it was the case.

#44 David McKinney

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Posted 08 October 2004 - 08:03

I'm with Ray on this
(and I saw them four weekends in a row ;) )

#45 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 08 October 2004 - 08:53

According to some people...

And some photographs...



I read as on the cars for some races. Not all races.

So it could be that you were not present at the races where they were??

:cool:

#46 David McKinney

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Posted 08 October 2004 - 09:13

Either Ray or I saw every race the cars did

#47 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 08 October 2004 - 09:16

Originally posted by David McKinney
Either Ray or I saw every race the cars did


Hmmmmmm...

Guess I am stumped then. :lol:

Then riddle me this "Why would some claim thart the cars were painetd like this, and alledge that pictionary evidence exists"??

:cool:

#48 Patrick Fletcher

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Posted 08 October 2004 - 09:42

Originally posted by KWSN - DSM


Hmmmmmm...

Guess I am stumped then. :lol:

Then riddle me this "Why would some claim thart the cars were painetd like this, and alledge that pictionary evidence exists"??

:cool:

I can remember sitting in Phil Hill's car - I think the stripe was green but I did have shades :cool: on - so it may have been blue! - it seems not many colour photos of Hill's car are around but if they are about they will surely show up here in due course. Until they do I am with Ray and David

#49 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 08 October 2004 - 09:53

Originally posted by Patrick Fletcher

I can remember sitting in Phil Hill's car - I think the stripe was green but I did have shades :cool: on - so it may have been blue! - it seems not many colour photos of Hill's car are around but if they are about they will surely show up here in due course. Until they do I am with Ray and David


All black and white photos can be made into color photoes if you have the negatioves, the colors seem "light" or not filling, I recall it as exposing through a red, green and yellow filter.

So whomever is sitting on negatives can clear this up. Shades disqualify you from having an opinion.

;) :cool:

#50 Ray Bell

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Posted 08 October 2004 - 10:59

Originally posted by David McKinney
Either Ray or I saw every race the cars did


Sorry you missed the good one, David...

One day I'll tell you about it.

Now... what was this about cigarette packets?