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#1 Spunout

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Posted 07 October 2004 - 19:34

Everyone knows Keke Rosberg. But first Finn to start F1 race was Leo Kinnunen, succesful sports car racer. He had excellent CV - everything from sportscars to F3 and Rallying. GT car championship with his partner Pedro Rodriguez made him well known in racing circles. Then he went for F1...

(some background)

1960s Volvos, Porsches, F3 Titan (Finland)
1969 Nordic Challenge Cup/Porsche 908, 1st
1970 Sports Cars/Porsche 917, 1st (w/Pedro Rodriguez)
1971 European Interserie/AAW Porsche, 1st
1972 European Interserie/AAW Porsche, 1st
1973 European Interserie/AAW Porsche, 1st

Plus numerous sportscar/stock car/Rally events.

Leo wanted to impress F1 bosses with his driving skills only. His languade skills were less than impressive and same applied to his backing. And not so surprisinly, his car wasn´t great either. It was last year´s (test car?) Surtees TS16/ Ford, bought/borrowed from England. The name of the team was AAW since AAW agreed to "borrow" the name to Kinnunen. In reality the team had nothing to do with AAW :D The team had no access to soft tyres, making qualifying to races even more difficult. He managed to qualify to Anderstorp GP 1974 (25th), but was forced to retire after 10 laps. The official reason was electronics, but later "Leksa" revealed his mechanics asked him to stop because the engine of his Surtees/Ford wasn´t going to last much longer. They were originally planning to drive few quick laps before retiring, but his team wanted to make sure they weren´t going to bother Carlos Pace (the driver of "real" Surtees team), who started close to Kinnunen. In next 4 races he failed to qualify and returned to the "season final" of Interserie in Hockenheim. In the wheel of 1100 hp/800 kg Porsche, he won the race. Leo Kinnunen continued to race different types of cars until he retired from racing, few years after his unsuccesful F1 venture.



Can anyone of you give more info, opinions or real-life experiences of first Finnish F1 driver? :cool:

Any responses will be appriciated!



Thanks in advance :)

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#2 Udo K.

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Posted 07 October 2004 - 19:48

Here is a little world premiere:

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@ Spunout: I'm sure you know were and when I was able to take this shot?

#3 Twin Window

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Posted 07 October 2004 - 20:14

Two I took at the 1974 British GP...

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:up:

#4 thomaskomm

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Posted 07 October 2004 - 20:24

Spunout, i saw him in the interserie 73 or (and) 74 Hockenheim and Nuerburgring. He drove the Porsche 917-10 with more than 900 Horsepower on the rear wheels!!. I had wonder cause he didn´t wear a Bell helmet, all the other driver droves one to this time. But his driver skills were absolutely a extra class!!! A incredible underrated Driver, Leo Kinnunen! He droves in the sixties a Austro Formula Vee, one of my favourite race cars.

Thomas

#5 David Beard

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Posted 07 October 2004 - 20:24

Interserie Silverstone....

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#6 Team Gunston

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Posted 07 October 2004 - 20:38

I also have recently posted a thread on his F1 aborted season on the 10-Tenths forum, entitled "Mysterious & forgotten entries of 1974 F1" :

http://www.ten-tenth...?threadid=59640

The reason for which his name didn't appear on the (even provisional) entry lists of the Monaco, Dutch and German GPs is still a mystery for me. I don't understand the reason of these 3 holes in his European program. So further help and info would be welcome too.

The fact that the AAW name was in reality "borrowed" for his F1 commitments is an interesting point. That gives me a first explanation about the fact that the team was officialy known as "Racing Team AAW" until 1973 (as written sometimes on the bonnet of their Porsche 917/10 and confirmed by official races programmes), and then became suddenly "AAW Racing team" in 1974 F1 (confirmed by a photographic evidence too : the Surtees sported this title on its rear wing, at least for the Swedish GP). I have this photographic proof on my computer (by the way, this is the most splendid photo of the AAW Surtees I know), but unfortunatly, I don't know how I can attach this photo here (I have found it on a Swedish site of which I don't remember the name).

When I was a young boy, Leo Kinnunen was a mythic driver for me, for the simple reason that he was the last F1 GP driver to wear an open-faced helmet. That made his attitude at the wheel of his modern (in those times) Surtees and Porsches terrific from my point of view. Yes I loved Kinnunen very much for his old-fashioned helmet ! He was still a human being at a time when the others were Cosmonauts.

Regards,

Philippe

#7 Team Gunston

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Posted 07 October 2004 - 20:49

At least, I have found the the Swedish site. Here is the photo :

http://www.ssij.nu/a...rpnostalgi4.htm

#8 Team Gunston

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Posted 07 October 2004 - 21:12

@Thomas

I know at least two or three other drivers in Europe and South Africa who had kept their open-faced helmets in the 1974/1975/1976 years, although they were driving open cockpit / big banger cars :

- Peter Hoffman (top Interserie contender too, with a McLaren M8F),
- Jacques Joliat (Swiss F2 driver, but mainly an hillclimber),
- Dave Hart (F1/F5000 SA contender, driving a Surtees TS8).

Plus Carlos Reutemann at the 1974 Race of Champions, but it was exceptional in this case and due to the pouring rain on Brands Hatch.

And don't forget Lloyd Ruby and Jim Hurtubise in the USA, who made the show at Indy in 1974 with their usual open-faced helmet/goggles combination !

Philippe

#9 Twin Window

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Posted 07 October 2004 - 21:25

Originally posted by Team Gunston

Plus Carlos Reutemann at the 1974 Race of Champions, but it was exceptional in this case and due to the pouring rain on Brands Hatch.

And, as I discovered not long ago, Reutemann also wore it for the 1974 Spanish GP...

#10 VDP

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Posted 07 October 2004 - 21:35

Don't forget fast lap at targa florio in 1970

Robert

#11 Rainer Nyberg

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Posted 07 October 2004 - 22:25

Here's a picture from one of Leo's rallying exploits...proving that he is really a Flying Finn!

It is from the 1973 1000 Lakes Rally, where Leo finished third in this Porsche Carrera.

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#12 Torx

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Posted 07 October 2004 - 22:40

Originally posted by Spunout
Can anyone of you give more info, opinions or real-life experiences of first Finnish F1 driver? :cool:


"Leksa" gives an impression of a one bitter SOB. When MH was still active Leo's favourite pastime seemed to be belittling MH and his achievements at every possible opportunity especially during the championship years. Only few months ago he was quoted on a paper and said that MH never was a real top-driver. For him to label MH as merely mediocre has been ludicrous.

#13 Mischa Bijenhof

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Posted 07 October 2004 - 22:48

I assume "MH" is Mika Häkkinen?
So who's this S. O' Brien then? Could it be Roberts brother?

MB ;)

[edit: sorry, it was not my intention to convey this thread to 'fluff']

#14 Nanni Dietrich

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Posted 08 October 2004 - 10:23

I have a question about Kinnunen's career: in 1969 Spunout wrote Leo K. was in "the Nordic Challenge Cup/Porsche 908, 1st".
January 1970, after a few months, strange thing: at Daytona Beach he was one of the four drivers of John Wyer Automotive, in the Gulf-Porsche 917K (and he won the race!!!). The other three guys were three boys: Seppi Siffert, Pedro Rodriguez and Jackie Oliver! All great drivers, two of them F. 1 GP winners.

So, I want to know WHY John Wyer selected The Flyin' Finn, a driver not so expert compared to the other drivers of the Team? He bet on the name of Kinnunen (as Ferrari on Lauda in 1974, or Sauber on Raikkonen)? Or... :confused:

#15 Carlos Jalife

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Posted 08 October 2004 - 17:51

Well, Nanni, in 1970 Jackie Oliver wasn't there with Wyer, it was Brian Redman partnering Siffert.
Now about winning the 24 Hours, well, I fear he might not have been given any points there since Pedro did most of the driving, basically about 18+ hours of the 24, including most of the night. But pedro was that way, he'd get out and then start complaining his partner was losing them time. Same thing happened to Attwood in Austria 1971, and Pedro would only get out of the car because he had to according to regulations. And at Brands 1970 the same thing, Pedro drove all but a short stint in the race.
Leo was OK as support driver for Pedro but in the long run he had to go because he wasn't that fast so Oliver was given the seat and the difference wasn't as big.
And yes he did get the FL at the Targa, on a day Pedro was a bit sick both physically and with some team attitudes.
But , on the other hand, Leo threw away the Nurburgring when he was upset about Laine's death and crashed the car. On his side, he didn't ewant to drive, but Wyer (or Yorke) forced him since there was no replacement and they couldn't run Pedro alone (although Pedro was willing to give it a go until they found someone among the drivers who retired early). In the end it was not to be.
And he was chosen bt Wyer because he was fast, and he was not hard on the equipment. They tried Hobbs before, and he broke an engine at Daytona in late 1969 so he was cut. Then they tried a bunch of germans from the 1969 team and Leo was better basically. They put him with Pedro since Siffert and Redman were partners before and the surprise was thet the number two pairing was really the number one.
He was not as fats as Pedro, but then again, who could be? Siffert wasn't, Brian, Derek, Oliver, Attwood, Muller, none of them were (I mean in general not in maybe one specific lap of a specific race), and that sealed his destiny,but Porsche gave him a good hand with the Interseries 917s, as a reward. But he was good.
And AAW is the name of the sponsor Aarno A. Wihuri, who funded the team which ran a 908 in the 1970/71 championships, the one in which Laine was killed I think. AAW was sort of the sponsor of the great sports drivers in Finland then, sor t of like when NESTA sponsored all the Finns in the 80s and 90s.
And he won the Nordic Cup beating Jo Bonnier, Attwood, Redman and others in a Porsche, and that was what gave him the chance to try for the Wyer team.
One more thing. He also refused or was slow to elarn English and that also costed him because he couldn't communicate with the Wyer people and caused him to be taken off the team at the end of 1970.
Well, sorry to deviate a bit on the Leo story, hope this adds. And I remember the e-,ail of Leo was in some thread a few years ago. Anyone remember that?


Carlos

#16 VDP

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Posted 08 October 2004 - 20:31

Oups
Wasn't A. WIhuri imorter for finland for vw range and also owner of a track in my memory is good ?

Robert

#17 Nanni Dietrich

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Posted 11 October 2004 - 13:37

Thanks Carlos, good explanation.

(Redman and not Oliver aahheemmmmm :blush: )

I have a question: Ok, at the end of 1969 Leo K. had surely the title to be one of the JWA drivers for 1970 season. As David Hobbs, or other german drivers that drove official Porsches in 1969. The problem was to search a driver as fast as Pedro, I think...
But I want to know: why Kinnunen and NOT Elford? why Kinnunen and NOT Stommelen?
Elford in 1970 drove the same 917K for Team Salzburg, Stommelen went in Autodelta-Alfa Romeo.

Did Wyer (or York) think they were not reliable as Leo? they were not fast as Leo? :rolleyes:
Or, more simply their cost was higher then Leo?

;)

#18 e34fanatic

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Posted 11 October 2004 - 16:00

I´m too puzled why John Wyer, David Yorke and whole Porsche organisation decided to choose Kinnunen. The 917 campaign was engineered in such a way, that there was absolutely no way it to fail. Kinnun was certainly an odd-ball choice for this one.

I think that there is few explanations though, which all adds up a quite a logical reason.

First: Leo Kinnunen was a AAW(Antti Aarnio Wihuri) protagé and that made him natural Porsche/VW driver. AAW had a close and personal relationship with Piech family.

Second: Leo had a good showing in Nordic Cup race, which in truth was not highely contested race. However, Leo shoved that he can handle a powerful sportscar and beat the journeymens.

Third: These two facts gave Leo a chance to show his skill in private testing of 917. There is a lot of different versions, how this test went. There were a lot of other drivers too, contesting that test. I do not have any real results or information about how that test went in full. I do belive that Leo was more than adequate at speed-wise, did not blew (expensive) engine and gave good feed back.

Fourth: Since Pedro was a small guy, the second driver needed to be a small too. Leo was just the right size.

So now you can see, why Leo was chosen. I´m not saying, this is the truth, but I think this is a realistic scenario. Basically his choice was a compromise.

#19 Pedro 917

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Posted 11 October 2004 - 21:48

From Autosport 19 Oct. 1989 : Race of my life

Leo Kinnunen / 54th Targa Florio / May 3d, 1970 / Porsche 908/3 :

The 1970 Targa Florio was a race where I wrote a little piece of motor racing history by setting the fastest ever time round that arduous 45-mile Piccolo Madonie circuit. To me it was a case of proving my point in the difficult circumstances that I found in the Gulf/Wyer team.
I'd been picked by Porsche to drive with Pedro Rodriguez, who was John Wyer's own choice. It was soon obvious that I was expected to be the anchor man in the team as team manager David Yorke kept telling me to go slow, not to risk anything.
In a way, that was fine with me, because our Porsche 917 really was a beast to handle. Pedro insisted on having an impossibly understeering car. Very early in the season I once managed to have the car in more neutral settings and started beating Pedro's times. Thereafter he would always have his way with the settings of our 917. An even more serious handicap was having to adjust to Pedro's driving position. He wanted to drive with his arms straight, virtually lying on his back. Although we were almost the same size, his arms were longer than mine and I had to support myself hanging on to the steering wheel!
So it was just as well my team mate did the bulk of driving in the 917, as I felt the car was downright dangerous for anyone else to handle. I've got to hand it to Pedro though, he had an amazing stamina coping with such a pig of a car for long stints, only asking for the odd aspirin afterwards.
For the Targa we had Porsche's new 908/3 - an entirely different animal. I hadn't been involved in the testing, but as soon as I tried the thing in practice it was obvious that this was a 'normal', car, well balanced and very manoeuvrable. And it actually stopped when you pressed the pedal. Mind you, I think the original 908 might have been better still for the Targa!
I didn't do too many laps in the race car in practice and certainly it was always Pedro's job to set our grid time. I managed to learn the circuit pretty well, though, pounding around in a roadgoing 914, which we tested for the factory. Before the start I had a fairly good idea of which way the road turned, but it was still difficult to commit oneself fully, because the surface was constantly changing with the tarmac being patched up and the trees dropping all manner of stuff on it.
It had been raining hard the night before the race and the start was delayed with marshals stuck in traffic jams on the actual race course. All this left the road covered in muck and the conditions during the early laps were treacherous, indeed. The cars were sent out at something like 10 second gaps and catching up with slower cars I soon had my goggles covered in grime. It got so bad that I had to throw them off after a couple of laps.
The track was drying all the time, of course, and I was getting more confident. My opening stint lasted four laps and by the time Pedro was sent out we were in the lead. It turned out that my last lap had eclipsed Vic Elford's record by half a minute.
My eyes were in agony for having driven without goggles for more than an hour. In the pits I had tears running down my cheek, when Ferry Porsche's daughter came up to me, handing her laced handkerchief. It was a gesture I hadn't encountered before, and it left a very warm memory.
Pedro was losing time and we had dropped back to about fourth place, when he was brought back in. They sent me out still with instructions not to do anything silly. I was just told to make sure we got to the flag. By that time our sister car, driven by Siffert and Redman, was too far ahead for us to catch, but it was being chased by Nino Vaccarella's Ferrari 512.
Vaccarella, of course, was the local super hero and normally one might be forgiven for feeling a bit apprehensive about fighting him in those wild mountains, surrounded by fanatical Sicilians.
Going into the last two laps of the race, I had got back to third and was taking chunks of time off the Ferrari. On the penultimate lap I managed to lower the lap record by another half a minute. Vaccarella surprisingly handed over to Ignazio Giunti, who proved faster than him.
I’ve got no recollection of actually overtaking the Ferrari on that last lap, but of course that wasn't necessary, because they had started well ahead of us on time. I did the last lap in 33m36s, which was considered outstanding. It was a minute and a half below Elford's record, but I was still well within the limits, braking and changing gear as smoothly as I could. We finished second in a Gulf/Wyer 1-2.
That performance hopefully showed that there was some unleashed potential in our team. If the 917 we normally drove had been properly set up, I could have been a lot quicker in it and I'm sure Pedro would have benefited, too. We both had a driving style which was quite gentle on the car, we could have been an even better pairing in endurance racing.
My drive in the Targa was widely attributed to may rallying experience, but that's way wide of the mark. I had only driven in one tarmac rally in my life, and that was a snowy Monte Carlo in a Volvo Amazon!

Leo Kinnunen was talking to Esa Illoinen

Leo Kinnunen (46) was probably Finland's best all-round driving talent in the late sixties and early seventies. He got his first taste of motor sport in an ancient Formula Junior, but made a name with amazing performances in big Volvos. In 1965 he swept all before him with a Fiat Abarth in Finnish iceracing, but a test for the factory didn't lead to a contract. In the late sixties Kinnunen mostly competed in rear-engined VWs and Porsches, but also had some success in F3. He conclusively won the Nordic Challenge Cup series in '69 with a Porsche 908, and a subsequent test led to a contract with John Wyer's Gulf Team. In 1970 he won four classic endurance races with Pedro Rodriguez. The next three seasons saw him cleaning up in the Interseries with the AAW Team's Porsche 917 Turbo. In '74 he attempted to break into Formula 1 with an AAW Surtees. Today, he leads his own company specializing in industrial inventions.

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#20 Pedro 917

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Posted 11 October 2004 - 21:54

Here's a nice picture I recently bought from Belgian photographer Daniel Hendrickx :

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Kinnunen is taking over from Pedro during the 1000kms race of Spa 1970. Unfortunately, they didn't finish this one.

More pictures can be found here

#21 cjpani

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Posted 11 October 2004 - 23:19

:clap:


great thread, both "verbally" and visually :up:

thanks all

cj

#22 harryglorydays

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Posted 08 November 2004 - 15:43

Here's a shot I took of Leo riding on the Gulf 917 to Victory Lane at Daytona 1970.Posted Image

(I hope this works - first time posting an image)

#23 Kiirava

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Posted 16 February 2008 - 22:17

I’d like to revive this thread, although it’s been dormant for a couple of months, by tapping your knowledge about the role of Leo Kinnunen during the famous Zeltweg tests in October 1969 when the Porsche 917K was “born”.

The following facts are rather well documented:
The test took place between Oct 14-18
The cars used were;006 which had been the T-car at LeMans; 008 which had been raced by Elford-Attwood at LeMans. This was the car modified during the test with a raised tail leading to the Kurzheck design.There are some very interesting pictures of this car on http://www.porsche91...tm#ZeltwegTests .The 027 which was the prototype of the 917PA-028 spyder design that Siffert raced in CanAm.
The drivers were Brian Redman, Kurt Ahrens, Piers Courage and Leo Kinnunen .
Several sources mention Kinnunens presence but there is one interesting omission in the interview with Brian Redman on http://www.classicra...ew_experience/3. He talks about the tests on Oct 15th when the tail modification was made, but he mentions only Ahrens and Courage. There is another significant remark in that John Wyer was not present at the test due to an injured arm.
Can it be confirmed that Kinnunen was testing at Zeltweg those days in October? If that was the case, which I’m pretty convinced of, which of the cars did he drive? http://www.porsche91.../chassis_00.htm claims that Ahrens- Courage-Kinnunen tested with the 006 and 008 cars but only Redman the 027 car.
Had Kinnunen been test driving for the Porsche/JWA Team for his drivers seat before the Zeltweg tests or was this the driver test as well as a development test of the 917 car. Why was Piers Courage testing, was he a contender for the drivers seat awarded to Kinnunen? It is widely thought that the decision to employ Kinnunen was very much Wyers personal decision, it is therefore odd that he was not even present to see Kinnunen driving the 917.
I will be interested to hear your enlightened comments.

#24 Pedro 917

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Posted 16 February 2008 - 23:53

You can find all the details of the October tests in John Horsman's fantastic book 'Racing In The Rain' (pages 195 - 202). In short : Porsche started the tests on the 14th, Peter Falk and Helmut Flegl were in charge, Redman and Ahrens driving. On the 15th, the Wyer delegation arrived (David Yorke, Ermanno Cuoghi, Peter Davies, John Horsman and Piers Courage who was hoping to drive for Wyer). The cars were 006, 008 and the spyder 027. John Wyer wasn't there as he was nursing a painful broken elbow, sustained at Imola, the month before. Courage did some laps in 008 and 027 but was forced to leave immediately for England after a message received back at the hotel. The tail modifications were made on 008 in the afternoon but the work wasn't finished before dark. The following day, October 16th, the modifications paid of as Redman came in after 7 laps and said "That's it, now it's a racing car!" Ahrens went out also and was 3 secs faster than the day before (1.45.7). Then they moved the 'new' tail to 006 for further tests on that car.
On the 17th, the Firestone crew was prepared for their tires to be tested. At first on 006 with Ahrens and Redman driving, Ahrens lapping at 1.43.5 now, 5 secs faster than 2 days before! The new tail was then switched again to 008 and Ahrens managed a 1.43.3 immediately. During all this activity, Finnish rally ace Leo Kinnunen had arrived, hoping for a test drive. With everyone in a good mood, he was accommodated and got 23 laps, his first time in a 917, putting in a competitive time of 1.43.8!

So to answer your question : yes Leo was there on the 17th of October and drove 917-008.

There were 4 drivers at Daytona in November for the final tests: Siffert-Redman-Rodriguez and Hobbs. However Hobbs missed a shift and bent all the valves in the engine. Piëch took a dislike to Hobbs as a result to this and so Kinnunen got the fourth driver's position by virtue of his having driven 908s in the past and by putting in a good time at the October Zeltweg tests.

#25 Greatest

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Posted 17 February 2008 - 10:59

I have had some discussions with Mr. Leo Kinnunen every now and then. Due to my personal respect of him I will not reveal any confidential information. I will however confirm that he was and still is quite unknown internationally, because he does'nt speak many languages; he told me once that this was a big problem for him and that it is easy to think a person is arrogant and rude when he doesn't speak too much e.g. English...

He is actually a very likeable person, but in a Finnish way he also tells his opinions (he is very honest, in a good manner). I have spoken with him about drivers from different eras and about Mika Häkkinen he said that Häkkinen was a very fast driver but then he could also make some very silly mistakes. This is true, isn't it?

#26 Alexey Rogachev

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Posted 17 February 2008 - 19:57

Was Kinnunen related to Team Kinnunen, which, according to the ToomasNapa.com web site, was an international Estonian-Finnish-German business? On this web page one can find a headline of a certain arcticle published in 1990: "Team Kinnunen - Eesti mehed, Eesti-Saksa autod ja Soome raha" (Team Kinnunen - Estonian personnel, Estonian-German cars, and Finnish money). Unfortunately this is only a headline, not a link to the full text of the article.

#27 Kiirava

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Posted 17 February 2008 - 22:21

Thank you "Pedro 917" for a very exhaustive answer.It gave me the info I had been looking for. The reason for my interest is that I collect scale models of racing cars diven by finnish drivers on international circuits. It all started with JJ Lehtos Sauber C12 as a birthday present to my youngest son back in 1994. It soon, however, became daddy's hobby and today I have over 200 models. Once you know all the "usual suspects" you start looking for the odd ones......like, did Kinnunen drive any of the cars at Zeltweg?

To "Greatest" I would like to point out that I'm certainly not trying to ridicule the achievements of "Leksa" on the contrary I'm a great admirer of his. I have of course to reveal that I'm not only finnish but also of the generation of motor enthusiasts that were proud of Leksas Porsche employment, angered by the dropout for the following season, exuberant about the F1 project and unable to admit that it was doomed from the outset. He was elevated into the racing elite under circumstances which made his position very difficult. To place him in the same drivers seat as the macho-latino Pedro Rodriguez was almost unfair.

I have the greatest respect for Leksa that he recovered from the bullying he must have suffered at JWA and the horror of Laine's fatal crash and still established himself as the undisputed Interserie champion for 3 years in a row.

The F1 project was a fiasco and has certainly tarnished Leksas reputation drawing undeserved attention from his fine drives not only in the Interserie but also for the Martini team in 1974-75, not to forget the phantom lap at Targa - but it was almost a rally-course anyway.

If you are in contact with Kinnunen during his well deserved pension days in Spain please give him my respect and regards.....and ask him to send a picture of the Porsche 911S he raced with Waldegaard at Nurburgring 1971 so that I can construct a scale model or perhaps there is somebody out there in this Pandoras Box of information who can help my as brilliantly as Pedro 917 did.

#28 Pedro 917

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Posted 18 February 2008 - 08:23

Here's one from the Nürburgring 1971 that I asked a friend to look up for me, Kinnunen at the wheel. It was the only one he could find :

Posted Image
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#29 Arjan de Roos

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Posted 18 February 2008 - 08:58

South-African model makers This Way Up have made a 1/43rd model kit of the Surtees. F1 model fans can no longer say they do not know Leo.
BTW I heard Leo is still running a garage with his son.

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#30 fines

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Posted 18 February 2008 - 09:15

Have they also made a Bagration Surtees? :cat:

#31 Kiirava

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Posted 18 February 2008 - 21:33

Well, well Pedro 917, not so bad, but not good enough. What colour could it be - my guess is red or orange. Could it be a re-cycled Monte winner? And what is the text on the door. The racing number 88 yes, but 3T or GT or GT3 before that?
I noticed that poor Udo K. at the top of this thread has patiently been waiting over 3 years for an answer on were and when he took the picture. Here is my guess: at Keimola Interserie race in 1970 in the Bill Bradley Team McLaren M12/Chevrolet 6GT usually raced by David Prophet.

Thanks Arjan de Roos for the remark on the TWU kit which I knew about.

Now here is another one to crack: Who can produce a picture of Kinnunens AAW Porsche 908/2-011 in one of the Nordic Challenge Cup races of either Keimola(Fin), Mantorp(Swe) or Anderstorp(Swe).

#32 Tomas Karlsson

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Posted 19 February 2008 - 08:27

I have some lousy photocopies from a Swedish magazine. I think the car had blue stripes over the fenders and a yellow nose.
Mantorp:
Posted Image
Keimola:
Posted Image
Anderstorp:
Posted Image
Posted Image

#33 Nanni Dietrich

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Posted 19 February 2008 - 10:23

Originally posted by Tomas Karlsson
I have some lousy photocopies from a Swedish magazine. I think the car had blue stripes over the fenders and a yellow nose.
Mantorp:
Posted Image
Keimola:
Posted Image
Anderstorp:
Posted Image
Posted Image


Looking at these pictures, Leo had a dark helmet instead of his usual white.

#34 Kiirava

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Posted 19 February 2008 - 10:33

What a relief that Udo K. is not sitting by his PC day and night waiting for the right answer, because, as you must all have realised by this time, my guess was wrong. Anybody should recognise the Versace googles hanging around his neck at the European Sportscars Championship race at Mugello 1970 racing Abarth Corses Abarth 2000SP. Wake up Udo K.!! This is the right answer, isn't it??

Tack Tomas. The pictures are just as good as the Pedro 917's from Nurburgring and might be useful when creating a proper kit from the NCC races. At least I know that the car was NOT in the 1969 ADAC 1000km livery then still owned by Porsche AG and raced by Kausen/v.Wendt nor was it AAW-yellow as in the first WSC races in 1970 with Laine.

#35 Tomas Karlsson

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Posted 20 February 2008 - 07:37

The car was white with blue bands over the fenders, blue trim tabs, yellow nose and yellow lower sides. I have found a colour picture, but as I have got it from another TNF member I don't want to post it here.

#36 carol24

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Posted 20 February 2008 - 19:01

I heard that Leo is seriously ill. Has anybody got more detailed information ?

#37 Giraffe

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Posted 20 February 2008 - 19:22

I've e-mailed my pal, the Prof. of English at Jyvaskyla University in Finland to try and find out.

#38 Dave Ware

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Posted 21 February 2008 - 07:46

There is an add-on pack for the 1974 season of EA Games' F1 Challenge '99 - '02 that has Mr. Kinnunen's F1 car. There are three or four screen shots. Here is one of them:

http://www.racesimul...6658/dateD.html

#39 Udo K.

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Posted 21 February 2008 - 20:26

Originally posted by Kiirava
What a relief that Udo K. is not sitting by his PC day and night waiting for the right answer, because, as you must all have realised by this time, my guess was wrong. Anybody should recognise the Versace googles hanging around his neck at the European Sportscars Championship race at Mugello 1970 racing Abarth Corses Abarth 2000SP. Wake up Udo K.!! This is the right answer, isn't it??


... you are right - I'm not waiting day and night and 3 and a half years for an answer. And thanks for that kind request to "wake up" ... I give you three more years to find out the correct answer.... :yawn: its not Mugello 1970.

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#40 Kiirava

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Posted 22 February 2008 - 07:17

Udo K! You are humiliating me.If it is the Abarth 2000SP, which it is, and you have not been in Mugello, then it must be ESC Nurburgring 1970 or then you don't remember where you took the picture anymore. If you are such a smartguy :smoking: then tell me whats the livery of the Kinnunen/Waldegaard car above.

#41 Udo K.

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Posted 22 February 2008 - 10:47

Originally posted by Kiirava
Udo K! You are humiliating me.If it is the Abarth 2000SP, which it is, and you have not been in Mugello, then it must be ESC Nurburgring 1970 or then you don't remember where you took the picture anymore. If you are such a smartguy :smoking: then tell me whats the livery of the Kinnunen/Waldegaard car above.




Kiirava!!!

I remember very well where I took the picture together with many more. And yes, Nürburgring 500 ks 1970.
But as I will not lower myself to your "smart guy level" you will forgive me that I will not continue here..

#42 andydolermo

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Posted 22 February 2008 - 13:43

Hello there:

sorry for the "off topic" as this car at the Mugello was driven by Pauli Toivonen and not Kinnunen, but I guess this is the same car Kinnunen drove in the Keimola/Anderstorp/Mantorp Park races. Yes, Nanni Dietrich,
the car was white/yellow/blue! :)

[IMG]http://img90.imagesh...30/07zx4.th.jpg[/IMG]

#43 Kiirava

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Posted 22 February 2008 - 18:28

Sorry Udo K, please don't get offended. I thought we were writing to each other in a sarcastic an humoristic way. I think I have seen many photos by you especially from ADAC 1000km in 1970 which was a dramatic race for all Finns. I would so much like to find out if you have a picture of P.Toivonen/D.Frölich, Porsche 911S
#79 from that race. AAW had withdrawn the Toivonen/Axelsson Porsche 917K from the race because of Laines fatal accident in practice but Pauli Toivonen apparently found a drivers seat for the race.

Andydolermo, thank you for your picture which is the same car raced by Pauli Toivonen an Gerard Larrousse in Mugello GP resulting in a DNF.

#44 Pedro 917

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Posted 18 January 2011 - 22:29

A recent picture of Leo Kinnunen, courtesy of Klas Eronen. Photo taken in September 2010 at the Auto Museum of Turun Sanomat ("Turun Sanomat" is the biggest local newspaper in Turku, Finland). Leo suffered a stroke in 2006, I believe. Also on the left side is Mr. Simo Lampinen, the legendary Finnish rally driver & rally organizer.

Posted Image



#45 Greatest

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 08:35

A recent picture of Leo Kinnunen, courtesy of Klas Eronen. Photo taken in September 2010 at the Auto Museum of Turun Sanomat ("Turun Sanomat" is the biggest local newspaper in Turku, Finland). Leo suffered a stroke in 2006, I believe. Also on the left side is Mr. Simo Lampinen, the legendary Finnish rally driver & rally organizer.

Posted Image




Just noticed that the photo was originally sent by Klas Eronen as a link. I'd like to correct that the photo is originally from the following site and most likely taken by Mr. Kari Naskinen:

http://naskinen.blog...01_archive.html

#46 Rainer Nyberg

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Posted 18 November 2014 - 18:49

How did Leo's TS16 end up looking like this?

The airbox seems to have been through some post Long Beach '76 mods?

 

http://gan.suntuubi....sen F1 auto.JPG



#47 funformula

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Posted 18 November 2014 - 21:10

How did Leo's TS16 end up looking like this?

The airbox seems to have been through some post Long Beach '76 mods?

 

http://gan.suntuubi....sen F1 auto.JPG

 

Well...I don´t see much of a TS16 in it, seems to be a heavily modified TS14 although not to it´s advantage.



#48 fbarrett

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Posted 19 November 2014 - 00:10

Leo was featured on many Porsche factory posters back in the day, mostly Interserie-related.



#49 proviz

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Posted 19 November 2014 - 08:25

Leo kept the car after 1974 and applied his own ideas to it, testing them in Keimola. I've never got to asking him about the purpose of it all, as I felt the whole F1 episode was probably the most forgettable chapter of his life. He did entertain ideas of designing an F1 car from scratch into the early 80's, going as far as saying he thought it could even be competitive with something like a Williams FW07 after one season's development...

It's been said Leo was not really technically minded, but at the same time, people who worked with him admit he often seemed to have an intuitive understanding of things like aerodynamics, at a time when no-one really knew very much about the subject. The problem was communicating his ideas to engineers, even in his own language. Later in life Kinnunen patented several of his ideas, one of them concerning a pram, if memory serves.



#50 uechtel

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Posted 20 November 2014 - 08:44

The reason for which his name didn't appear on the (even provisional) entry lists of the Monaco, Dutch and German GPs is still a mystery for me. I don't understand the reason of these 3 holes in his European program. So further help and info would be welcome too.
 

 

As I remember in "Grand Prix!" Mike Lang wrote, that in 1974 started the problem of "overcrowding" of the Grand Prix fields. This meant that the FOCA organized teams tried to drive out the "independents" (teams like Kinnunen, Finotto, Amon, Trojan, Token etc.). So as the events were still mainly in the hands of the organizing clubs such negotiations led to different results until some kind of general ruling had been agreed on. I think I remember he even wrote about some kind of legal action of one of the independents to get a place in the field somewhere, but I have to look this up first if there is interest here.

 

I think Lang did not write explictly about Kinnunen, but for the events mentioned he made some statements, that the independents were either not accepted or did not feel welcome to place an entry.

 

 

It was last year´s (test car?) Surtees TS16/ Ford, bought/borrowed from England. The name of the team was AAW since AAW agreed to "borrow" the name to Kinnunen. In reality the team had nothing to do with AAW :D The team had no access to soft tyres, making qualifying to races even more difficult. He managed to qualify to Anderstorp GP 1974 (25th), but was forced to retire after 10 laps. The official reason was electronics, but later "Leksa" revealed his mechanics asked him to stop because the engine of his Surtees/Ford wasn´t going to last much longer. They were originally planning to drive few quick laps before retiring, but his team wanted to make sure they weren´t going to bother Carlos Pace (the driver of "real" Surtees team), who started close to Kinnunen.

 

So to my surprise the last statements indicates, that it would have been in fact a "disguised" rented works car, means, operated by mechanics employed at Surtees? Otherwise, if Kinnunen had really bought the car and full control of the operations would he have to care about the interests of the works team?