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Lister sports-racing cars in the USA


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#51 Doug Nye

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Posted 15 October 2004 - 10:52

...following the Formula 1 route, Richard - if you cannot in practical or economic terms adequately scrutineer it, simply void the inconvenient regulation ... and let it in.

DCN :cat:

Humph - thanks for your great list - I am somewhat troubled not to find the names 'Saul' and 'Hallahan' and 'Ensley' mentioned thus far - all claimed to have been the original owners or drivers of cars ordered from the Lister works via US distributors and agents. Jack Ensley obviously had been a D-Type exponent and would have been ideal to graduate to the Lister, but did he really do so ????

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#52 xkssFrankOpalka

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Posted 15 October 2004 - 22:34

Doug: Not sure about Jack Ensley but he raced a lot in the midwest, Further on Howard Quick, He drove a 150 Jag on the street. At Xmas his wife presented him with a set of Weber carbs. She said the linkage wouldnt fit in the box, but its in the garage. When they went to the garage there was a Lister Jag for him to put the carbs on. Nice lady. This comes from Bill Ullrich.

#53 Bob Brzezinski

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Posted 16 October 2004 - 03:19

Alright, alright. I just logged on for the first time in two days. Thank you, Doug, Don, et al for your measured responses to my knee-jerk post. I do not seek to derail this topic, which has had a huge amount of helpful information provided, but I do want to say that I appreciate both sides of the comments regarding "fake" or "replica" cars. All I will add is that I clearly understand that my car is not a Lister. It is a self-assembled auto which bears a passing resemblance to a 50's sports racer that I hold dear. I do not attempt to represent it as anything but that. The underpinnings are no more authentic than are the mechanicals of a fake Rolex one can buy in the Chinatown section of New York City, but it is the spirit of the car--light weight and a lot of power--that moves me, along with the shape of the body. If I could afford more I would buy it, but this will have to suffice.

At any rate, I apologize if my prior posts sidetracked your search for information, Doug. I own several of your books and always value your comments on the Speed channel programs in which you appear, and as stated I look forward to your next work. I would that I had the time to search the books that I own for further information helpful to your Lister questions, but it would doubtless have already been contributed by those who have already posted here.

Peace and best regards,
Bob

#54 humphries

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Posted 16 October 2004 - 19:20

Doug

Looking through the race reports in SCCA's SportsCar I have come up with the following. (I have ignored entries of the Cunningham cars and Fred Windridge's Clark-Boden Lister-Chevrolet for 1958/1959 and the Carstens/ Dean Van Lines (1958) as I think you know about these for those seasons. Also SportsCar did not report on all the Regionals and some of the National races had their full results published in a Newsletter which I do not have. There are odd references from other sources.)

At Hondo, Texas in October 1958 two Lister-Chevrolets appeared for Jim Hall and Jimmy Younger. I suspect that these cars were the property of Hall and Shelby. Knobblies both, the cars that is!

On 15 February 1959 Jim Hall was at the Frostbite races at Eagle Mountain. His Chevrolet was fitted with a Latham supercharger.

In March at the USAC Pomona promotion Wayne Weiler appeared in a Lister-Chevrolet ( another Knobbly )

Jack Flaherty was at Laguna Seca (7 June) and Riverside (18/7) with a knobbly Jaguar.

Hall and Younger appeared again in the Texan cars at Galveston 28 June.

Owner Tom Carstens drove his Lister-Chevrolet at the Goldendale Hillclimb in July.

Bob Hissom was at Kansas City with a white Lister-Chevrolet (4 October). One of the Texan cars I suspect.

At Midland, Texas also in October Bob Hissom (the white car) and Jimmy Younger had Chevrolets as did Joe Mabee in a "new" (sic) Chevrolet. By "new" it may have meant, new for him. No mention of it being a Costin car which I think might have been the case had it been very different in appearance to the two Texan cars.

At the pro race at Riverside (11 October) Weiler, Chevy, and Flaherty, Jag, were in the entry list.

Finally in 1959 Ronnie Hissom was at Oklahoma in a blue Lister-Chevrolet.

1960

At the Hondo races Hap Sharp and Dave Morgan shared a Lister-"Corvette", a knobbly yet again and probably one of the Texan cars. Also at this meeting was Ed Cantrell in a Chevrolet car with two body length stripes.

On 24 January Jim Connor and Ronnie Hissom turned up at Palm Springs with the Texan cars(?). This was the last time both appeared together, suggesting one was then sold.

Meanwhile Jack Flaherty's black and white Lister-Jaguar embarked on a season's racing in California; the car belonging to Kjell.H.Qvale.

Hissom was alone at San Marco on 9 April.

Bud Gates with his metallic purple car raced regularly in '59, Marlboro (16/04), Cumberland, VIR, Elkhart Lake (June), Lime Rock (2 July), Louisville (21 August), Thompson ( 5 Sept. ), Watkins Glen (23 /09). It was another Chevy and, I think, a knobbly.

At Cumberland Floyd Aaskov, better known as a F.Junior driver, appeared in a Lister-Buick. What type I do not know.

Ed Cantrell and Pete Harrison shared a Chevy at Courtland (29 May).

Pete Harrison was on his ownsome at Daytona in June.

Chuck Howard appeared at Laguna Seca (5 June) in a knobbly ( a photo shows a unidentified knobbly) of unknown engine type.

Cantrell and Harrison were sharing again at Savannah-Effingham (12 June).

Hissom was at Galveston with the blue Chevy car with a supercharger, much of which was above the bonnet line.

Aaskov and the Buick were at Lime Rock and later at Thompson and Watkins Glen.

Harrison was at Meadowdale (24/7)

And, at last, a possively identified Costin Jaguar was at Cotati, 14 August, the driving shared between Dave Ridenour and Chuck Howard. Its aluminium body looked very smart.

Meanwhile Don Hulette, in a white/blue Chevy owned by Fike Plumbing Co was racing in California. Possibly the white Texan car?

Then a fresh name but also a well-known name, Ed Hugus. He raced at Watkins Glen with a Jaguar-engined car. Type unknown.

Art Huttinger enters the Lister ranks at Savannah-Effingham (Sept), a Chevy car, which was described at Daytona ( 13 November ) as blue and white and "pretty". Prettiness, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. A Knobbly pretty? So it may have been a Costin. It ran prettily at Masters Field in December.

At the big Riverside race Harrison ( entered by Arthur Harrison ), Hulette in the plumber's car and Ridenour in the shiny Lister-Jaguar were all entered. Hulette crashed and his car was badly damaged and burned.

At the SCCA Laguna Seca meet (22 October) Chuck Howard was in a knobbly Chev but at the pro Laguna Seca in a Jaguar-engined car, presumably Ridenour's.

George Constantine was in the mighty Kelso Lister, making rare appearances, and the pair showed their worth in the Californian professional races and later at Nassau.

1961

To follow, as it is now time to prepare for imbibing. If all this is of no use please stop me. No offence will be taken if I am simply recounting to Grannie the art of egg-sucking. Remember this information is in no way complete.

John

#55 xkssFrankOpalka

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Posted 17 October 2004 - 01:43

Ron Hissom was the guy I crashed into at IRP when he stalled his Cooper Monaco on the starting line.

#56 Cynic

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Posted 17 October 2004 - 02:31

Originally posted by Doug Nye regulation ... and let it in.

DCN :cat:

Humph - thanks for your great list - I am somewhat troubled not to find the names 'Saul' and 'Hallahan' and 'Ensley' mentioned thus far - all claimed to have been the original owners or drivers of cars ordered from the Lister works via US distributors and agents. Jack Ensley obviously had been a D-Type exponent and would have been ideal to graduate to the Lister, but did he really do so ???? [/B]


I knew Jack Ensley when I was young, as he taught me to drive in 1953 (in an MG-TC on a golf driving range he owned in Indianapolis). He raced an Allard J2, possibly a J2R (which was raced Joanie Ellis, his girl friend), a Kurtis 500S/Cadillac (later replaced with a Chrysler Hemi when he was involved with Bud Gates, an Indianapolis Chrysler/Plymouth dealer), a pair of D-Types (one fitted with a Chevy V-8). another Kurtis special, and eventually and finally a Lola T70. There was also a brief flirtation with the Indy 500 during this period as well, although he failed to qualify. No Lister in the lot that I recall. Given his relationship with Bud Gates I suspect that the Gates car may have been ordered by Ensley, or may have erroneously had his name as the intended customer.

David Seibert

#57 humphries

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Posted 17 October 2004 - 13:38

To continue trawling thru' SportsCar with the hope it might jog the memory of other TNFers.

1961

Art Huttinger was at Daytona (4 April), a Chevy , the pretty one?

Ronnie Hissom still had presumably one of the Texan Listers at Las Vegas in March.

Dave Ridenour's Costin Jag was at Sacramento.

Danville, VIR, was of interest. The Le Mans stalwart Bob Grossman was there with a Lister-Jaguar and Dr Richard Thompson was there with the "big, black" Lister-Chevrolet. This I think must be referring to the Kelso car.

Also at Danville was Pete Harrison in a very clean Lister Costin. Now Sportscar says it was Chevrolet-powered but Today's Motor Sport says Jaguar. I think it was a Chevrolet because at all subsequent races only the name Chevrolet was used in SportsCar. However TMS provided photographic evidence it was a Costin. It could well be the Huttinger pretty car as Harrison and Huttinger were friends. Harrison raced a Chevy car at The Bridge (28 May), Road America ( 17 June), Lime Rock (1 July), Meadowdale (23 July) and Bridgehampton ( 5 August ).

The 5/8 August date is significant as Art Huttinger was also there in another Chevy, he had also raced at Courtland (4 July). Art and Pete look to have been using two Listers, so which, when and where is open to question. At Thompson (4 Sept) Harrison was alone in a "Floridian" Chevy but he shared one of the cars with Huttinger for the Road America 500. Huttinger, alone this time, appeared again at Watkins Glen (22 Sept).

Back to the May Bridgehampton race Gerry Georgi turned up with a Lister-Buick, presumably the ex-Aaskov car. Georgi then raced at Lime Rock, the August Bridgehampton and Thompson.

Bud Gates had been at Danville but in the SHE, his spare car, as his Lister-Chevrolet was a dns. Gates, however, raced the Lister at the June Road America, Meadowdale, IRP (20 August), Thompson, Road America 500 with Luke Stear, Watkins Glen and Meadowdale (1 October).

Howard Quick was at Meadowdale (23 July) in his Christmas Present Lister-Jaguar and also at IRP and then the RA 500 with good mate Hal Ullrich.

Meanwhile Dave Ridenour raced his Costin Jag at Vaca Valley 20/8 and Reno 24/9.

About this time Bob Colombosian showed up with a Lister Spl. This was probably his old Bristol-engined car receiving the V8 treatment.

The mysterious Charles Jefferson had his Lister-Jaguar at the National Watkins Glen meet (22/9).

Now, if any of the Colonials ( tongue firmly in cheek ) can provide any CONTEMPORARY photographic evidence I feel sure Doug would be most appreciative. What has surprised me is that there appears to have been fewer Listers in the States than was thought. The interrogation of former owners and drivers is recommended!!

In the UK, race reporters often used the ex-factor. It would be reported that Bill Bloggs drove the ex-Joe Soap, ex-John Smith car etc. Maybe we can backtrack using this method.

Now I've got my MotoRacing CDs I'll have look what Gus said.

John

John

#58 WINO

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Posted 17 October 2004 - 14:49

John,

The knobbly that Grossman raced at VIR in 1961 was a former Cunningham car. Grossman raced it at the Bridgehampton regional in 1960 for Cunningham, finishing second behind Hansgen's E2A. Unfortunately, he overrevved the car during the race and Briggs was not pleased. Grossman felt obligated to buy the Lister, as he would not be invited back to the team [until a few years later].

Yes, Thompon raced the Kelso knobbly in the same race at VIR.

WINO

#59 Ron Scoma

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Posted 18 October 2004 - 05:40

Originally posted by humphries
To continue trawling thru' SportsCar with the hope it might jog the memory of other TNFers.


Now, if any of the Colonials ( tongue firmly in cheek ) can provide any CONTEMPORARY photographic evidence I feel sure Doug would be most appreciative. What has surprised me is that there appears to have been fewer Listers in the States than was thought. The interrogation of former owners and drivers is recommended!!


John


John/Doug:

There are 2 noted photographers who were shooting in the Midwest "back then" who may be able to help. Ray Boldt and Ron Nelson, they are both professionals so there may be a charge but that's between you and them. I will call them in the morning and ask if they have anything. I see Ray once a week or so but I don't think he has Internet access.
I will also pass the word to the old Milwaukee Region (SCCA) people to see what, if anything, they can scare up. I will see them on Wednesday at our semi-annual meeting.
Also check out www.meadowdaleraceway.homestead.com for more information, it's a great site and you should be able to contact people from there who can further assist you.
Always glad to help the Mothers country (tongue firmly in cheek too).
Kind Regards,

Ron Scoma
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#60 humphries

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Posted 18 October 2004 - 10:31

Ron

You are right about there being good sites out there. Meadowdale, Cumberland and VIR I know about. There is a nice colour pic of Rathman in a Lister at the Dale. Danville has many of Dan Shaw and an interesting one of Bud Gates's Apache that still looks Listerish after the modifying. Most intriguing is a Lister-Jaguar at Cumberland in 1961 in full Cunningham decor but somehow looking strange. The windscreen!

I'm sure Doug would value all contributions. Cheers.

John

#61 WINO

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Posted 18 October 2004 - 20:14

Doug,

You may want to include the bizarre episode of BHL 132, ordered without engine late in 1958 via Lister importer Carroll Shelby Sports Cars [just the Hall brothers by then]. Based on the chassis number it was probably a Costin version.

The car was ordered for John Edgar and the plan was to put a 4.5 liter V8 Maserati unit in it. The 450S that supplied this engine had been converted to Pontiac power for Edgar by Jim Rathmann. The Lister chassis was late being completed, not until April 1959. By then Chuck Daigh was responsible for mating the V8 engine [redone in Modena] and the Lister chassis. Apparently the chassis was so much out of alignment that the Edgar crew soon threw in the towel. By then Edgar had paid Lister the princely sum of $13,000 for an engineless, crooked racer. The car was never raced under Edgar ownership and I wonder where it ended up.

WINO

#62 Doug Nye

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Posted 20 October 2004 - 11:30

I don't really feel that the 'crooked' description is really justified - Cabianca tells me the engine was actually 450S V8 unit '4506' - and the rolling chassis/Costin body was either then fitted with a Chevy V8 and sold on, or was sold engineless to a new owner who fitted an engine of his own choosing. It's pretty clear from Tam's wonderful website (TWW?) that the car ended-up with Dan Whitz and was fitted with drag-race Chevrolet V8 by ‘Lefty’ Mudersbach for driver Bob Edmison 1962-1963 - believed then to John Snyder - or did it go to Snyder before Whitz???

I have a hunch Gerry Georgi of Nyack, NY, might feature here for his 1961-62 Lotus-Buick was "a 1960 Costin-bodied car" and the Buick would have slotted very comfortably into an engineless ex-450S V8-tailored chassis....

Whatever - this might subsequently be the car whose career path then seems to have gone Chris Renwick/back to the UK, John Harper, Cedric Brierley, Ed Hubbard/back to the USA, rebuilt by John Harden (Oklahoma City) for Syd Silverman with Chevy V8 engine refitted...

Overall at the present state of play I'm prepared to believe there are ten genuinely-derived surviving 'Knobbly' bodied cars for which almost every possible provenance question can be believably resolved - and six genuinely-derived 'Costin' bodied open cars - plus the unique spaceframe-chassised Costin Coupe. That's 17 cars out of how many, 23-35 dependent upon whose account one might be prepared to believe...????

Doug Nye - neck on block - Farnham...

DCN

#63 humphries

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Posted 20 October 2004 - 13:58

Doug

Still trawling through MotoRacing. Two adverts might be of interest.

Al Dean offered his white knobbly for sale in January, 1959.

Hall-Shelby Distributers Inc proclaimed in July, 1959 " Listers...in stock....immediate delivery. Three Lister-Corvettes, One Lister-Jaguar...All brand new with late suspension and brakes." The advert says only this; no mention what body type but Costin seems likely.

Admitting I am no expert, could this mean the following? Cunningham had had four cars before this advert appeared, and Al Dean, Tom Carstens, Mrs Boden-Clark had had one apiece, and the Texans themselves had been racing two others. Jack Flaherty had been racing the Qvale car and Wayne Weiler his; these two could have been new or they may be subject to the ex-factor. However with these four brand new 'uns it would have made a grand total of between 13-15 Listers in the States, plus Colombosian's ex-Norwood (?) Bristol.

You will still need Jack Ketch's phone number! Good luck.

John

#64 Doug Nye

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Posted 21 October 2004 - 13:35

One of the most active of the later Lister-Chevrolet owners was Art Huttinger, listed by the SCCA as being based in 'Cent, Florida' - a town, or an abbreviation?

Huttinger's car was a much photographed 'Knobbly'. I have had less success locating a photograph of SCCA class Champion Pete Harrison's contemporary car - and I'm bothered as to whether it was a 'Knobbly' or a later 'Costin' bodied machine. Can anyone assist?

Incidentally, nice story from past UK owner of two Listers - David Beckett. His first car was chassis 'BHL 125' - a ‘Costin’ supplied new to accept a Chevrolet V8 engine for nightclub owner/racer Ray Brightman in 1959. He subsequently ran into a "little local difficulty" and the car was apparently acquired from the liquidators of his business by a gentleman named Charles Escott, in London. He fitted a wet-sump, straight-port head, Jaguar XK150 engine before selling the car on, eventually to a chap named Ryan, who lived in Goring-on-Thames (and “…who partnered Max Wilson in a Mini-Cooper at Nurburgring”).

David arranged to buy it during the harsh snowy winter of 1962-63 and he and his father set off to collect it in falling snow, but only got about 12 miles down the road before they ground to a halt in a snowdrift at Guildford. It took about five weeks more before he could get up to Goring - about 30 miles - to collect the car, but when he did he was driving it home on the public road and was thinking ‘Cor this old thing goes well’, "...and then the sixth plug finally cut in and it took off a like rocket ship!".

Suitably impressed he then began racing with the car – "but the first time out, the oil temperature passed 120C and it was obviously not going to be reliable – Allan Deacon had the John Bekaert mag-bodied Lister into which he’d put a 7-litre Ford Galaxie engine, and he sold me that car’s excellent D-Type engine for £250 delivered! That transformed the car, and I then raced it from 1963 to 1970…”.

He sold the car eventually to Bill James, of Wadhurst, Sussex - who quickly swopped it with dealer/racer Chris Drake for his Formula 5000 Cooper...

Allen?

The second Beckett car was actually acquired in an exchange with Cedric Selzer - Ced, are you there???? - as far as he can recall for two racing motorcycles, a Manx Norton and an AJS 7R. It was 'BHL 121' originally fitted with a modified-nose ‘Costin’ body and Chevrolet V8 engined for John Ewer, 1959. He sold it to Jimmy de Villiers, South Africa and Cedric eventually retrieved it, I believe, in derelict state and shipped it back to England. David Beckett restored it with a remade standard-shape Costin body and Chevrolet V8 engine, and raced it in Historic events before selling it on to dealer/racer David Clark. Its now in the US, I believe.

However, I really am seeking any confirmation on Harrison's car in the US, 1961-62 however - 'Knobbly' bodied or 'Costin' bodied?????

Incidentally, it's interesting that the Dave Ridenour car (so well illustrated on Tam's website) should have been described in period as having been "ex-Bueb" because chronologically that fits with this car having indeed begun life as the No 1 Lister works team's 1959 Costin driven by Ivor the Driver - which makes it a genuine Le Mans 24-Hour car - and one of which I had formerly lost track when it was in The Chequered Flag dealership's inventory, Chiswick, in the Autumn of 1959...

DCN

#65 WINO

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Posted 21 October 2004 - 15:17

Pete Harrison's Lister/Chevy was a Costin. He raced it under number 87 and finished 6th in the August 1961 Bridgehampton SCCA National with the car. In September 1961 he took it to 7th in the Road America 500, assisted by Art Huttinger [who did not enter his Knobbly].

The "Bueb Costin Lister" may not necessarily refer to the 1959 Le Mans 24 Hours. Ivor took the start at Sebring in 1959 in a Cunningham-owned Costin as well.

WINO

#66 Doug Nye

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Posted 21 October 2004 - 17:30

Good point, but the Cunningham Costin which Ivor Bueb drove at Sebring was co-driven by Stirling Moss. The journalese description of that car thereafter would surely have been "ex-Moss" rather than "ex-Bueb"?

Thanks for confirmation that Pete Harrison's car was a Costin version.

DCN

#67 Doug Nye

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Posted 22 October 2004 - 11:34

:blush: ...sorry about this continuing saga...does anyone have a Monterey Historics 1997 programme which could offer chassis serials of Listers present???

DCN

#68 Ted Walker

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Posted 23 October 2004 - 08:17

Doug. I was under the impression that the "450s" chassis was living close to Silverstone and was exhibited at the Coys Rockingham event ???.

#69 Doug Nye

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Posted 23 October 2004 - 08:59

Yes Ted - and that car's quoted chassis serial has been 'BHL 135' - a number of 'unlikely' magnitude - and it is a car which 'emerged' in 1997. However, Cabianca has quoted to me the original sales invoice for the real 450S-powered Costin Lister, which is dated March 1, 1959 - and the genuine car's contemporarily quoted chassis serial was in reality 'BHL 132'...

We all make mistakes ... some blokes make cars as well..... :stoned:

DCN

PS - Does anyone remember Ray Stoutenberg racing a Lister in US Vintage events circa 1975-1977??? Would anyone be able to post a photograph of his car at that time????

#70 humphries

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Posted 23 October 2004 - 11:06

Two snippets from MotoRacing.

On 4/09/1960 Pete Harrison's Lister-Corvette was described as "new". This would imply that the Lister he raced earlier in the year was another car, probably Ed Cantrell's.

Also in September, 1960 it was reported that following complications after being injured when a horse fell on him, Chuck Howard, had decided to retire and that his ex-Flaherty car ( a Jaguar Knobbly ) was up for sale. I think it was reported ( SportsCar ) that the Howard car was a Corvette which appears to be incorrect. A month or so later Howard returned to the wheel (!), but it might have been with the Ridenour Costin Jaguar not the ex-Flaherty/Dalton car of Qvale.

#71 Doug Nye

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Posted 25 October 2004 - 22:10

Fascinating US Lister-Chevrolet photos here:

<http://dega.cs.unc.e...oct/tc-6210.htm>

...and a super site in general on Danville, VIR...

DCN

#72 David Birchall

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Posted 26 October 2004 - 02:50

Another Lister Jag driver on the east coast was Don Adams, don't know anything about him but you can see him at
http://www.coldplugs.com/thompson1.htm
Bottom of the page.

I remember Joel Finn having the ex Jim Clark "Flat Iron" Lister for sale in the late seventies.

#73 tam999

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Posted 26 October 2004 - 04:45

I love John Coehlo's "Cold Plugs" site and always find something new & interesting there. The bottom photo on this page shows Pete Harrison's #87 Costin Lister-Chevy.

http://www.coldplugs.com/thompson3.htm

Tam McPartland

#74 humphries

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Posted 26 October 2004 - 15:49

Confirmation that Ted Peterson's Lister-Jaguar (Costin) that he raced in California in 1962 at Oakland (15/7) and Pomona (22/7) and elsewhere was the "ex-Dave Ridenour" which was repainted maroon before it was sold to Peterson.

Another race appearance was made in 1962 by one Bob Edmison at Pomona (18/11) in a Lister-Corvette. Type and pedigree not known.

#75 tam999

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Posted 26 October 2004 - 19:20

Ted Peterson ran the ex-Ridenour Lister-Jag at the 1962 "L.A. Times Grand Prix" at Riverside on Oct. 12-14 1962. During qualifying he found trouble exiting Turn 6. I think he lost his l/r wheel (not sure after all these years!) but in any case he rolled the car. He wasn't hurt but he never appeared in the Lister again.

Tam McPartland

#76 Doug Nye

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Posted 26 October 2004 - 21:35

Brilliant - liked the Thompson website, despite being an instinctive Internet cynic I'm rapidly being converted to all this witchcraft....the good stuff really IS rather good - Humph, thanks, the Edmison car is described in detail on Tam's site - the ex-Maserati 450S engined 'BHL 132'...

The Ridenour/Peterson link is extremely helpful -

I talked with Bob Colombosian, yoghurt magnate, last night while Eno de Pasquale has described how his Lister-Buick, which I think was ex-Gerry Georgi, was sold eventually to a novice who fitted a high-spec Chevrolet engine and took it to Lime Rock 1964/65.

It seems the propshaft broke adrift during his first half-lap, under load on the uphill section, and it split the fuel tank.

The unfortunate driver died in the resultant fire.

Jim Haynes (Haines???), Lime Rock manager at the time recalls the incident vividly. He tells me the poor fellow's family took away the Chevrolet engine and told him to "get rid" of the burned rolling chassis.

It was then bulldozed into an illegal landfill dump situated beyond the escape road at the end of the Lime Rock main straight.

About ten years later a determined effort was made to locate it with metal detectors, but apparently there was so much metal buried in an area extending over perhaps an acre that the detectors just went berserk with a couple of hundred yards of the former tip site, and the salvage attempt was abandoned.

I'd be pretty sure the car survives somewhere in the Historic world today... :cool:

But can anyone supply the name of that unfortunate, inexperienced, Lime Rock driver...????

DCN

#77 Ray Bell

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Posted 26 October 2004 - 21:47

Originally posted by Doug Nye
.....Jim Haynes (Haines???), Lime Rock manager at the time recalls the incident vividly. He tells me the poor fellow's family took away the Chevrolet engine and told him to "get rid" of the burned rolling chassis.....


To pay for the funeral?

I'd be pretty sure the car survives somewhere in the Historic world today...


As many do... of course...

By the way, which Buick engine did it have?

#78 Doug Nye

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Posted 26 October 2004 - 21:52

1498cc in-line five - diesel...

DCN

#79 Ray Bell

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Posted 26 October 2004 - 21:55

I'm amazed he ditched that for a Chevy...

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#80 tam999

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Posted 27 October 2004 - 00:57

This link was posted early in this thread but Bob Edmison's Lister-Chevy has been mentioned several times since so I'll repost it. The linked page features a photo of the car and Bob Edmison's comments:

http://www.tamsoldra...isonLister.html

Tam

#81 TIPO61

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Posted 27 October 2004 - 01:05

There are a number of references to Listers (events, drivers but not chassis numbers) in Preston Lerner's 'Scarab, Race log of the All American Specials.' It took me ten years to find a copy of that work and now that I have it I read and re-read it about once a month. If it wouldn't infringe on his copyright I would be willing to extract the Lister mentions and post them. Please advise.

#82 Jim Thurman

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Posted 27 October 2004 - 02:25

Originally posted by Doug Nye
But can anyone supply the name of that unfortunate, inexperienced, Lime Rock driver...????


Doug,

In checking "The Tribute Project", there is nothing listed for that time frame for Lime Rock. Only an August 24, 1968 listing of a fatality in an SCCA Club event there.

There also is a fatality listed in an SCCA Club event at Thompson in 1968, but those are the only two listed for SCCA road racing events at either Connecticut circuit for the 1960's.

This is not surprising to me as "The Tribute Project" has some noticable gaps in that particular area.

Very interesting thread. I've enjoyed reading of all the travels (or should I say travails?) of these cars.

#83 Ted Walker

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Posted 27 October 2004 - 13:58

Does ANYONE know the chassis No of Constantine's KELICHEV ??? Also Huttinger's Lister. Both ran at Nassau during the late 50s.

#84 Doug Nye

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Posted 27 October 2004 - 21:12

Jim,

What was the 1968 Lime Rock fatality???? Maybe we have a mis-remembered year here...

Ted,

The 'Kelischev' appears - repeat APPEARS - to have been Lister-Chevrolet 'BHL 114', today with John Mozart, Palo Alto, California.

The Huttinger car is still a seriously tantalizing problem for me. Art Huttinger's Knobbly Lister photo was plastered all over the magazines circa 1961-62, he seemed to be racing it everywhere, and doing well despite its creeping obsolescence.

The chassis register which Philippe Renault compiled in the mid-1970s quotes 'BHL 127 - ART HUTTINGER, TOMBSTONE, SHAW' but a serial number that high ought to be a Costin-bodied car and the vanished Art Huttinger and Graham Shaw car - if Dr Renault's ownership-chain is correct to that extent - was a Knobbly...

Huttinger's car was mid-metallic blue, and so was Shaw's - see the pix of the crashed Shaw car - complete with heavyweight pole lancing its nose - on the excellent Danville website here:

<http://dega.cs.unc.e...oct/tc-6210.htm>

But I have a feeling it could have been one of the ex-Cunningham team cars 1958-59. I have never been able convincingly to work out to whom those so important Lister-Jaguars/Lister-Chevrolet actually sold directly ex-BSC/Momo Corp. The Huttinger car might in reality have been a serial as low as 'BHL 106'... but then of course, it might not...

DCN

#85 WINO

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Posted 28 October 2004 - 13:30

According to Edmund Rahal, who raced against Shaw many times in the southeast in the late fifties/early sixties, Tombsone was Shaw's nickname.

WINO

#86 Doug Nye

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Posted 28 October 2004 - 14:10

Yes - I found mention of 'Tombstone' Shaw in a contemporary report in the small hours, this morning. Did he make and market headstones or something????

DCN

#87 WINO

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Posted 28 October 2004 - 15:02

I suppose it referred to his "on the edge" driving style.


WINO

#88 KarlOakie Research

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Posted 28 October 2004 - 15:54

Graham "Tombstone" Shaw had a variety of business interests, one of the largest being real estate in the central part of South Carolina. He had money and a notion that he had some level of talent and bought a variety of fast machines over the late years of the 1950s and the early years of the 1960s. Those cars he did not wreck, he seriously abused. I vaguely remember the Lister in the shop and then when it sat outside the shop with weeds growing up through the engine compartment -- that one I never had much to do with, my time being spent on the Shelby Cobras he bought, at least two if I recall. His shop was near Owens Field in Columbia and later used by several other racing teams, most notably the group that fielded Tiny Lund during the 1960s. Shaw finally damn near killed himself at Lake Garnett in, I guess it was 1964, and became a patron to several racing efforts before dropping out of the game entirely. Helluva guy.

#89 Doug Nye

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Posted 28 October 2004 - 17:46

Thanks -

Now it's always a healthy experience to be confrotned with your own ignorance.

About 30 years ago I first became aware of a Lister-chassised car, freshly retrieved to England from America, which was known as 'The Boeing-bodied car'.

Received wisdom was that this was a Lister which had been supplied as a chassis only, and had then become the basis of a record car project allegedly master-minded by John Fitch and bodied under his direction and with help from the corporate wind tunnel by Boeing aerodynamicists.

I wasn't aware of the thing having done anything of great note, and so thought little more of it. 'The Boeing Car' became just another familiar 'so-what' machine, in which John Fitch had been involved.

Well, I have just got off the 'phone to John Fitch.

"As far as I can recall I have never worked with anyone from Boeing, I don't know anyone from Boeing and I never had anything to do with a Lister-chassised Boeing-bodied record car in my entire life...sorry I can't help you."

:confused:

So have all those references and tales over so many years been based on BS?

Did 'Hot Rod' magazine or somesuch circa 1959-1961 give spurious coverage to the thing...was a different John Fitch involved, not the former works Mercedes driver and safety engineer? Did I imagine the whole thing????

Help????

DCN

#90 Ted Walker

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Posted 28 October 2004 - 18:55

Doug. You have received the photos by now ???? If you want to put them up to show people what the "Boeing Car " looks like feel free .

#91 Doug Nye

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Posted 28 October 2004 - 19:54

Thanks Ted...

Here she is - der liddle beauty... :rolleyes:

Posted Image

(Photos by courtesy of Ferret Fotographics)

It wouldn't have been much of a high-speed record car with that Kamm-type tail, but there's a look about that rolled-edge transom which suggests there's a detachable long-tail cowling missing?

DCN

#92 WINO

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Posted 28 October 2004 - 20:26

Doug,

That looks more like a Bocar Stiletto, another ill-conceived adventure!


WINO

#93 Ray Bell

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Posted 28 October 2004 - 20:47

It certainly has a 'Boeing' look about it...

Lots of lift in the wing section.

#94 Paul Parker

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Posted 28 October 2004 - 21:06

I've had nothing original to add to this thread so far but now it has reached the 'Boeing Special' I would offer the following.

I'm fairly certain I saw the car pictured here, or one very similar, at Crystal Palace in either 1971 or 1972 with a blue/white paint job with Halibrand type wheels and described as the Boeing Special although I do not recall the Kamm tail. I can remember little else at this remove, and I'm not even sure if it raced that day but if it did no doubt somebody in TNF will know or have pics.

As an aside it looks to be a little short in the wheelbase for a Lister or is that just an optical illusion caused by the long snout and abbreviated tail.

#95 David Beard

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Posted 28 October 2004 - 21:38

Originally posted by WINO
Doug,

That looks more like a Bocar Stiletto, another ill-conceived adventure!


WINO


mmmm...I googled...

http://www.ktrmotors...r_stiletto.html

#96 Ron Scoma

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Posted 29 October 2004 - 01:36

Sir Doug of Nye:

As we discussed I made contact with the prior owner of BHL 112 and he has a lot of information that he would be more than happy to share with you.
Would you be kind enough to send me your email address to pass along to him?
Also, the photographer I mentioned has some contemporary photo's of Listers racing in the Midwest (USA). Places such as Meadowdale and Road America to be exact.

Just saw a movie today that featured, among others, Eddie Crawford in a Lister-Jag at the Glen.
Contact Mike Argetsinger regarding that information.


Willem:

I have NOT forgotten about the Billy Krause film, give me a few more days please. Thanks. I have been swamped with both lunches and dinners and have had barely enough time to do anything else...
Kind Regards,

Ron Scoma
#41

#97 WINO

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Posted 29 October 2004 - 04:28

Ron,

Thanks for the update. It is a small world indeed, as I am currently working on an article covering the race career of the late Eddie Crawford, thanks to much interesting information and photos supplied by his family. Apparently the Lister was his favorite car!

WINO

#98 xkssFrankOpalka

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Posted 02 November 2004 - 04:09

Ed Crawford was a Chicagoan who was very fast. The last time I saw yrs ago him he was on crutches with severe bone and joint problems, he is now deceased.

#99 Doug Nye

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Posted 06 November 2004 - 22:41

Whahayyy!!!

Fireworks crackling and banging outside the window tonight celebrating gunpowder, treason and plot (the Brits will understand) while yrs trly is sitting here celebrating a couple of telephone calls...

I have just spent 40 fascinating minutes on the 'phone talking with Art Huttinger, aged 80, still Florida-based, retired stockbroker. He bought his Lister-Chevrolet from Ed Cantrell - Cantrell bought it from Shelby - it was possibly the car raced in Texas 1959 by Jim Younger - then it gets better - he sold it to Graham 'Tombstone' Shaw who crashed it at Danville VIR - see the crash pix on their website - subsequently it went to Ron Klein - then via Jeffrey Griffith - then to the UK, dealer Stephen Langton (killed in a Connaught at Brands Hatch) - Langton sold it to a very enthusiastic and pleasant Dutchman named Dick van Amsterdam.

That was in 1979.

I located Dick thanks to hhh here on TNF, and spent a long time nattering to him earlier today. He still owns the car, still with largely original body in place....and finished in bare aluminium to show off its age.

At last a great chunk of this Lister register is coming properly together.

Two of the early production 'Knobbly' 1958 chassis - 'BHL 106' and 'BHL 107' have remained mysterious for many years...

Two chassis survive today with peculiar chassis numbers, possessing only two digits instead of three. These two frames are in complete cars which are now pretty much UNDOUBTEDLY original.

One - 'BHL 16' - is the car which student Dave Reynolds discovered complete but utterly derelict on an Oklahoma farm in 1974. John Harden in Oklahoma City restored it and the car lives today with Jaguar Switzerland Club president Christian Jenny.

The other - 'BHL 17' - is Dick van Amsterdam's less well-known, long-term ownership, car.

I'm sure these are the pair which should have been serialled '106' and '107' but they were almost certainly either a) shipped to the US on Customs paperwork previously raised for the Lister-Bristols exported under those numbers (so the importer of the new car could claim it was just the old one "on which some work has been done back at the factory" and so they could claim it was already US Duty paid) - or b) Lister's guys simply got lazy and instead of striking '10' or '11' for the 16th and 17th times as prefix numbers they just punched the frames '16' and '17' without the one hundred digit appearing first. I feel option a) is infinitely the more likely... :cool:

All I have to do now is try to pin down the origins of the Pete Harrison Costin car and the Bud Gates Knobbly and at last I'm starting to get somewhere....

This is quite probably of ZERO interest to anybody else here, but at the moment just call me chuffed of Farnham...

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#100 David McKinney

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Posted 07 November 2004 - 07:45

Originally posted by Doug Nye
This is quite probably of ZERO interest to anybody else here

Certainly not :up: