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Lister sports-racing cars in the USA


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#101 humphries

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Posted 07 November 2004 - 11:33

Doug

One I think I missed from SportsCar. A Fred Rediske in a Knobbly at Milwaukee on 22 May 1960.

John

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#102 Doug Nye

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Posted 07 November 2004 - 14:04

This would appear to have been Rich Vogel's driver Fred Rediske, at the wheel of 'BHL 112' - now one of collector Syd Silverman's cars.

Vogel advertised this car in the December 1960 issue of ‘Road & Track’ - describing it as “1958 Lister-Jaguar under 1,000 miles 3.0 Sebring + 3.8 new spare - $5,500 may trade” - it went to Howard Quick – was converted at some stage to Chevrolet V8 power – to Richard Dagiel - Tom Macarthur- Jim Coffman who I believe converted it back to Jaguar XK 6-cylinder powered form – to Peter Giddings – to Syd Silverman – to Tom Malloy and presently retained.

DCN

#103 Racers Edge

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Posted 07 November 2004 - 15:49

Hello Doug, do you know any more about this Lister Chev. ref: Chuck Howard? Chassis# BLH???

Posted Image

Lister Chevrolet, 1959.

This particular car is one of the few original Chevy-powered cars which was delivered when new with a Costin designed Williams & Pritchard body.

Directly sold to America where it was first owned by Chuck Howard and then 4 more consecutive American owners, before it returned to England in 1980. Chuck Howard raced this car at the following tracks: Nassau '59 and '60, Bridgehampton '60 and '61, Road America '61 and '62, Tucson '61 and '62, Lime Rock '61, Elkhart Lake in '60, '61 and '62.

Back in England the car went through a ground-up restoration in 1988/89 and during this restoration it was converted to Knobbly bodywork. FIA papers for the car where issued in April 1991 by the R.A.C.

Now in excellent condition and even road registered.

#104 Doug Nye

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Posted 07 November 2004 - 16:46

Yes - well - that's what it says about the car on Marcel Roks' dealership website. I'm still verifying the provenance of this particular entity but I have a pretty good idea of what it might be, and presently I suspect it's perhaps more a child of Devonshire, than of Cambridgeshire....

DCN

#105 humphries

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Posted 07 November 2004 - 19:06

Why does this advert refer to Road America and also Elkhart Lake when they are one and the same?

My records do not contain any reference to the participation of Chuck Howard in any of the races listed. For Tucson I cannot find a date for the races so he may have been there!

Gives you some indication of what Doug is up against.

John

#106 WINO

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Posted 07 November 2004 - 19:31

For Road America someone may have gotten his Howards mixed up. In 1961 and 1962 Howard Quick, not Chuck Howard, raced a knobbly Lister in the 500 miles.


WINO

#107 David McKinney

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Posted 07 November 2004 - 20:44

Originally posted by WINO
For Road America someone may have gotten his Howards mixed up. In 1961 and 1962 Howard Quick, not Chuck Howard, raced a knobbly Lister in the 500 miles.
WINO

...but the alleged Chuck Howard car was a Costin ;)

#108 WINO

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Posted 07 November 2004 - 20:59

Agreed, David.

Which makes the historical claims re the Costin car only more suspect. I just checked the 1959 Nassau Trophy results and there was no Costin, just two knobblies: Ronnie Hissom in his Chevy powered and A.J. Foyt in a Jaguar powered version.

WINO

#109 WINO

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Posted 07 November 2004 - 22:09

The more I think about the Costin competition history listed by Racers Edge, the more it starts to sound bogus.

Chuck Howard was an amateur racer who lived in a wealthy suburb of San Francisco. He hardly ever left California to race and is likely to have entered the car only at local tracks such as Laguna Seca, Cotati, Stockton and Vacaville. In addition, he was ill with hepatitis during 1961 and did not race that year.

Buyer beware.


WINO

#110 Doug Nye

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Posted 07 November 2004 - 22:10

BHL 112 and BHL '116' - the two serious 'Howard' candidates, the Chuck Howard and Howard Quick cars - were both 'Knobbly' bodied machines....unless you have photographic evidence confirming otherwise????

DCN

#111 WINO

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Posted 07 November 2004 - 22:23

Since he must have raced it only sparingly, at out-of-the-way venues in Northern California, I have never seen a published or unpublished photo of Chuck Howard's "own" Lister. So I can't tell if it was a Costin or a knobbly. Chuck did drive a Cunningham knobbly in the October 1960 Pacific Grand Prix at Laguna Seca. Did he buy it after the race or was his own car a different [Costin] model?

Howard Quick's car was most definitely a knobbly.

WINO

#112 Doug Nye

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Posted 07 November 2004 - 22:28

Hmmm - WINO I 'might' have been premature in the above - having muddled my working-text Register drafts because 'BHL 127' is another car with alleged Chuck Howard connections and that car certainly WAS a 'Costin'... and that is the entity which, via the dealerships/restorers/phakers, traces through to the - in my considered opinion - 'somewhat doubtful' car featured in the aforementioned advert. At least one previous owner has described the car to me as "having a bit of a provenance problem"...

DCN

#113 Gerr

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Posted 09 November 2004 - 00:18

DCN brought up adverts in Road & Track and time-warp cars.
This one has intrigued me for a long time.

"LISTER-CORVETTE, Williams & Pritchard body.
Car and 340-hp engine are NEW, never used. Car
is being converted for street. $3800. Nick Morgan,
751 Florales Dr., Palo Alto, Calif. (415) 321-4070"

From December 1966

Anyone know anything about this Lister ?

#114 Doug Nye

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Posted 09 November 2004 - 14:52

Gerr - hold the line caller, I'm getting there....  ;)

DCN

#115 WINO

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Posted 20 November 2004 - 13:47

Doug,

This may be too late for the update of your book, but I have done a thorough search of all entires of the Cunningham Listers as part of my Eddie Crawford story, especially on who drove Briggs' single Costin. After Sebring 1959, where Bueb and Moss shared the Costin, it was a car assigned solely to Walt Hansgen during 1959. The other 1959 team members [Thompson, Fitch, Forno, Boss, Crawford, Cunningham, Windridge --O'Connor never go behind the wheel of one--] only drove the knobblies, with one exception: Phil Forno was Walt's co-driver in the 1959 Road America 500. He retired the Costin during his stint and Hansgen took over the leading knobbly of Crawford.


WINO

#116 Twin Window

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Posted 25 November 2004 - 01:56

I realise that this is probably of zero help...

Posted Image

...but at least I managed to contribute (er, sort of). Taken at a Silverstone 'historics' test day during 1999, IIRC.











Please don't tell me it's not a Lister...

#117 Pils1989

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Posted 25 November 2004 - 02:05

Sorry but that's a Ferrari, not a Lister.


:p


Sorry... Back to lurking and my $tella. :D

#118 Twin Window

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Posted 25 November 2004 - 02:31

Bugger. But thanks...

By the way, did you see the pic of your uncle I posted here?

#119 cabianca

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Posted 25 November 2004 - 06:00

Chuck Howard was a descendent of the Seabiscuit horse family. He did own a Lister. It was a knobbly and there is a picture of it spinning at Lagua Seca in SCCA Sports Car. He also raced a Cunningham knobbly once, the same car that Daigh drove at Riverside.

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#120 Michael Oliver

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Posted 25 November 2004 - 22:13

Originally posted by Doug Nye
However, I really am seeking any confirmation on Harrison's car in the US, 1961-62 however - 'Knobbly' bodied or 'Costin' bodied?????


Hi Doug

I appreciate that you are probably well past your deadline now and that you now know the Harrison car was a Costin bodied one but I came across a 'bonnet off' shot of Pete Harrison's Lister today while looking for something else. Is this of any interest? If you want to look at it, it is on the VIR site that you mentioned but hidden away a bit, in the press photos pages. The photo is certainly captioned as Pete Harrison in a Lister Chev and was taken in April 1962.

Here's a link to the photo:

http://dega.cs.unc.e...ress/full09.htm

And the white Lister:

http://dega.cs.unc.e...s/61-63-du.html

Also possibly of interest, captioned just as 'Lister?':

http://dega.cs.unc.e...ress/full07.htm

Sorry, appear to have cocked up on the links as I've just tried them and they don't seem to work! Not sure why that is but you can see that the first and third ones are in the press section and the second one is in the puzzlers section.

Hope this helps!

Michael

#121 xkssFrankOpalka

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Posted 28 November 2004 - 22:39

Elkhart Lake is used to describe racing thru the town, Road America is the purpose built 4 mile track nearby.

#122 humphries

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Posted 28 November 2004 - 23:51

Agreed. So Listers never ran at Elkhart Lake.

#123 Jerry Entin

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Posted 14 November 2009 - 03:51

Doug: This comes from Willem Oosthoek:

"Tonight I had an interesting conversation with Joe Mabee of Midland, Texas. Joe is 78 years old right now, a well-known rancher, oilman, aviator, philanthropist and motorracing enthusiast, mostly remembered for his Bonneville adventures. His dad Guy Mabee sponsored Carroll Shelby in Europe by leasing an Aston Martin from David Brown in the early 50s.

In 1958 Joe Mabee ordered a Lister from CSSCI, the Hall/Shelby agency in Dallas. The engineless car was delivered by CSSCI employee Bob Schroeder. Joe told me he put in the Chevy V8 himself and remembered it was an easy task. He ran the car only once, at Midland in October 1959. It ran pretty well until the transaxle locked up. He sold it to a Porsche driver, whose name he does not remember, at the same event. The Lister was light blue with two white stripes.

So far it has always been suggested that the Ed Cantrell Lister/Chevy was the Jimmy Younger car, but a comparison of period photos indicate that these cars were very different in body features. It is more likely that the Cantrell Lister, which ended up with Art Huttinger, was actually the Mabee car. Cantrell's Lister was light blue with two white stripes and so was Huttinger's of course."

#124 Doug Nye

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Posted 14 November 2009 - 12:10

Coo - interesting information to re-juggle the jigsaw pieces...

...when we find the time...

DCN

#125 Jerry Entin

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Posted 14 November 2009 - 14:52

Doug: Here is a very nice story posted by Ryan Cochran about the Mabee Special:
Posted Image
"The Mabee Special"
I was pretty young when my dad and I decided to get serious about drag racing. Through the years we campaigned a number of different cars with differing degrees of success. It was my personal golden era and a period I will never forget. Amazingly, some of the most memorable moments didn't go down at the track. See, we had this pal that had a private runway just outside our home town of Midland, Texas. It was the perfect spot to test and tune our race cars for a couple of reasons.
I was just over 15 years old when this was taken at the Mabee airstrip. I can remember this exact moment as if it were yesterday. Scared and excited, my first line lock assisted burn out was just minutes away.
The second is less obvious. Our hosts, Guy and Joe Mabee, had exquisite taste in all things mechanical. It wasn't uncommon for a test and tune session to end with a ride in a P-51 Mustang or a tour of an amazingly complete private collection of aircraft. I remember one specific session that was interrupted by Mr. Mabee roaring out of a hangar in a Ferrari F40 looking to race. Our Lee Sheppard built 67 vette made short work of the prancing horse in the quarter, but it didn't take long for the F40 to make up the difference. My respect for the Italian started then.
Posted Image
Another from the Mabee airstrip.
My first professional car was previously ran by Les Figueroa in S/G and S/C. We ran it throughout the south in both classes as well, but some of my favorite memories come from that little runway.
So my dad and I always had a soft spot for the Mabees. They were just great people of like mind and a serious passion for all things fun. I had heard rumors that at one point the family went after the piston powered air-speed record in a scaled p51, but that was as far as it went. I thought As it turns out, the Mabees had an earlier effort.

Just last night, I got an email from Ronnie Low. Ronnie is my old crew chief and the current curator of the Jim Hall museum. Somehow or another he stumbled upon the Mabee Special.

Posted Image
In 1953, Guy and Joe decided they wanted to build the world's most complete sports car. A car that could compete with the fastest at the flats and most balanced on the road courses. They started with a light and shapely Victress body over a state-of-the-art chrome moly chassis. A Kurtis torsion bar suspension supported a Ford axle up front and a Halibrand quickie rear. For power, the Mabees looked to the legendary Ray Brown to build them a 353 cubed Hemi sporting a Harmon & Collins mag, Hilborn injection, and a Chet Herbert cam. Somehow a ‘39 top loader handled the heat.

The 1953 Bonneville Nationals was the first challenge. The car lived up to expectations and powered Joe Mabee into the 15th spot of the 200 mph club (203.105 mph to be exact). The world's fastest sports car was officially from Texas. Hot damn.


1953. The Mabee Special looked to be finely crafted for sure.
By 1954, the Mabees were ready to go road racing. A new 389 cubed Hemi was prepared by Ray, the top loader was replaced by a German ZF four-speed, and the Lincoln drums were replaced by Halibrand Indy double spot discs all around. The front suspension was also redone as the straight axle was dumped in favor of a complete Kurtis setup.

All they needed now was a driver. Back home in Midland, word began spreading about a young Texan wheeler by the name of Carroll Shelby. Joe made the call and the deal was set. Carroll would drive the Mabee Special into the record books.
Posted Image
The Mabee Special ready to go road racing in 1954...
Note the subtle differences - Halibrand knock-offs replace the Ford wheels while the graceful land speed headers have been replaced by the uglier yet more business like shotgun jobs.
But it never happened. After a few testing sessions, Joe and Guy saw enough potential from Carroll to know that he deserved to be where road racing was at it's best, Europe. Guy bought Carroll an Aston Martin and agreed to finance Carroll's endeavor overseas.

The rest is history. Carroll went on to dominate the circuits in Europe and used his experience with these cars along with the Mabee Special to build one of the most important sports cars in American history the Cobra.

But the story doesn't end there for the Mabee Special. Guy and Joe kept the car and raced it successfully through the early 1950s on SCCA tracks throughout the south. In 1955, however, the Mabees decided to let her go. The second place finisher of the first Pan America road race, Tommy Deal, bought the car and raced it for a few years before selling it himself.

From there the car bounced around to a few different owners and showed up at a number of different races such as Ascarate Lake and Pike’s Peak with a number of different drivers including Tommy Drisdale and even an Unser. Then, the car just vanished.

Posted Image
Mabee Special restored to it's 200 mph Glory
It wasn't until 1983 that Bruce Gross found the car in rural Mexico. After a long procurement process, Jim and Lea Ann Robinson found the car, purchased it, and completed a gorgeous restoration. Restored back to its 200mph glory.
As I write this article and learn more about this car, I sit here becoming more and more amazed at how close I was to such legendary people and legendary things without ever knowing. It says a lot about the Mabees for sure, but it also says a lot about the reach of the hot rod world. It's everywhere and sometimes it just takes a few decades to realize it.
Keep looking fellas. This stuff is out there just waiting to be rediscovered.
All text and photos Ryan Cochran- copyright 2007 Ryan Cochran

Edited by Jerry Entin, 01 May 2011 - 15:15.


#126 horizon

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Posted 14 November 2009 - 16:50

The Costin Lister Chevrolet of John Ewers (BHL121), 1959 Had a Modified nose (extra scoops??)for the v8. Would TNF's have any photos of this nose.

I'm farliy new to this wonderful site, and I restored BHL 121 and get to race her from time to time. The "works driver" you could say.
I used to wear an open face helmet......til something Large knocked of a corner of the windsreen ! Now I'm a girlie girl with a full helmet. Medical costs being what they are !! What a car. 500 + hp/480 ft lbs on 4 1/4 inchs of tyre per corner. Fun-fun-fun

Cheers
Horizon

#127 David McKinney

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Posted 14 November 2009 - 19:57

Did it still have the mods when David Beckett was racing it here in the UK in the 80s? Might be easier to find photos from that period

Edited by David McKinney, 14 November 2009 - 19:57.


#128 David McKinney

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Posted 14 November 2009 - 20:52

PS...

Something was niggling at the back of my mind about photographs of British Lister-Corvettes in 1959 magazines - I now remember what it was. There weren't any :)

Have just checked Autosport and Motor Sport and it all came back...

PPS. Try Ferret Forographics

Edited by David McKinney, 14 November 2009 - 20:53.


#129 horizon

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Posted 14 November 2009 - 21:32

David,
I don't Have the File in front of me, so going from Memory (YIKES!!) But the list goes From John Ewers to Jimmy de Villers (Rhodesia/S.Afica) 1960,61,62??. Soames Langton in the 80's then to the USA mid 90's.
There is a story that a new replacement W & P Costin nose was sent to Africa to replace a damaged one.

Thank you

#130 Doug Nye

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Posted 14 November 2009 - 22:48

The rest is history. Carroll went on to dominate the circuits in Europe


All good stuff - but the author might perhaps care to reconsider this bit....?

DCN


#131 David McKinney

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Posted 14 November 2009 - 23:10

I don't Have the File in front of me, so going from Memory (YIKES!!) But the list goes From John Ewers to Jimmy de Villers (Rhodesia/S.Afica) 1960,61,62??. Soames Langton in the 80's then to the USA mid 90's

My info is: Ewer 1959, de Villiers (Rhodesia) 1960-62, Eric Glasby 1964, Jack Clough in South Africa 1965. To UK per Cedric Selzer in the 1980s, raced by David Beckett 1989-92, Taylor & Crawley 1994-95 (and driven by Soames Langton). Sold at the 1995 Brooks Goodwood sale and my next note is with Hart Industries in 1999 (which I'm sure you know about :) )




#132 horizon

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 00:27

Yes David that all sounds correct.
So......Any Pictures of the Car when John Ewer or Jimmy de Villars raced it would be Most welcome. :wave:

Thank you

Horizon

#133 grandprix61

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 04:27

Do any of our American TNFers have particular recollections of such US 1958-1961 Lister-Jaguar and Lister-Chevrolet drivers as:

Pete Harrison
Art Huttinger
Gerry Georgi
Howard Quick
Bud Gates
Bob Colombosian
Chuck Howard
George Constantine
Fred Windridge
Bill Pollack
Ronnie Hissom...

...and of any other Lister pedallers that might be recalled, less the obvious stars, Walt Hansgen, Ed Crawford and Jim Hall...????

DCN

Doug: I don't know who is in this one but it is at Road America. some one out there will know. probably Tom Schultz. Have some more of the Lister around the mid-west. will post later. Best Regards, Ron N. http://img190.images...ister96ra02.jpgPosted Image

#134 RA Historian

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 14:58

Doug: I don't know who is in this one but it is at Road America. some one out there will know. probably Tom Schultz. Have some more of the Lister around the mid-west. will post later. Best Regards, Ron N.

This is a tough one, Ron. I do not recognize car or driver off hand. I went back through my stock of entry lists and came up with this from the 1963 Road America 500:

"#72, entrant Ross McCain, Atlanta, Ga; drivers Ross McCain, Peter Harrison; car, Lister Spl."

I then checked the results of that race and this car is not listed as having started. Not listed at all. Scratch that.

I have very sketchy info on the 63 June Sprints, a race that I missed due to my Army commitments. Hence, I think this is a question to be bumped to Willem Oosthoek, who is working on a book on racing in the southeast in the late '50s, early '60s. Willem?

Tom

Edited by RA Historian, 16 November 2009 - 16:47.


#135 Jerry Entin

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 15:22

The following is from Willem Oosthoek:

Tom: The upcoming book actually covers the entire South, from Texas to Florida between 1957 till the end of 1963. Based on the material so far, it will probably be a two-volume publication.

As for the car, it is the former Kelso Lister/Chevy, now painted yellow and red. Ed Lowther raced it after its Kelso days, although I am not sure if it is actually Lowther at the wheel here.

Edited by Jerry Entin, 16 November 2009 - 15:23.


#136 RA Historian

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 15:47

Thanks Jerry, I knew that Willem would know!!

Willem also confirms that Ed Lowther finished ninth overall, fifth in class CM at the 1963 Road America June Sprints. So that is where Ron took the above photo. Mystery solved! Thanks to Ron, Willem, and Jerry.

Tom

Edited by RA Historian, 16 November 2009 - 16:45.


#137 Jerry Entin

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 16:57

Following from Willem Oosthoek;

Tom: You are right. It was the June 23 race at Road America. Ed Lowther finished 9th overall in a #72 Lister/Chevy, fifth in CM class.

The better-placed CM cars were Harry Heuer [MB Chaparral, 1st oa], Don Devine [MB Scarab, 2nd oa], Dick Thompson [Grand Sport, 3rd oa] and Ed Hamill [Cooper Monaco/Ford, 4th oa].

#138 grandprix61

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Posted 17 November 2009 - 02:31

Following from Willem Oosthoek;

Tom: You are right. It was the June 23 race at Road America. Ed Lowther finished 9th overall in a #72 Lister/Chevy, fifth in CM class.

The better-placed CM cars were Harry Heuer [MB Chaparral, 1st oa], Don Devine [MB Scarab, 2nd oa], Dick Thompson [Grand Sport, 3rd oa] and Ed Hamill [Cooper Monaco/Ford, 4th oa].

You fellows are something else. thanks for the update. here is another one you can take a look at. same weekend I am sure. I should put the rest of these shots on the web site. Jerry, Tom you must have a lot of reference material at your finger tips. My stuff is over in a closet bookshelf and hard to drag out. Regards, Ron
http://img130.images.../lister7201.jpgPosted Image

#139 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 17 November 2009 - 08:15

#17 appears to be the Howard Quick/Hal Ullrich Lister-Jag BHL112 . Here is a link to another photo:

http://www.racingspo...2-09-09-017.jpg

Vince H.

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#140 RA Historian

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Posted 17 November 2009 - 13:46

#17 appears to be the Howard Quick/Hal Ullrich Lister-Jag BHL112 .

I agree, Vince!
Tom

#141 BritishV8

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 23:42

Can we keep his thread to the historical aspects of the Listers rather than put up photos of bad replicas or tarted-up, overrestored cars with massive rollbars and girliemen drivers with full face helmets? They are an abomination and lightyears away from what the Listers were all about.

WINO


Well, given that curmudgeonly quotation, I'm not sure how many of you might be interested to see the photos I just uploaded here:
Detailed current photos of an actively raced Costin-bodied Lister Jaguar: BHL-123

Posted Image

Please do me a favor! If you spot any errors in the write-up or captions please let me know and I'll update them.

I'm also interested to point out interesting design changes that have occurred over its fifty year racing history. For example, maybe you can help me identify:

1) Who made these front brake calipers? (They don't look like Girlings to me. AP?)
Posted Image

2) What donor car provided these front suspension uprights? (Morris Oxford would be original, but...)
Posted Image

3) What's this yellowed plastic reservoir for, rearward of the headers? (It ain't for windscreen washer fluid!)
Posted Image

(The lid looks like the Lockheed master cylinder lid on my MGB... but smaller.
However all three master cylinders are located on the opposite side of the car.)
Posted Image

Bonus question: Who made the steering rack on original Lister Jaguars. THANKS!


#142 horizon

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 00:59

Dear BritishV8<
There is this wonderful book writen by some bloke , D. Nye. "Powered by Jaguar"
READ it !! All the anwsers that you are looking for, are there :)

BHL121

Edited by horizon, 14 January 2010 - 00:59.


#143 pvbms

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 01:13

This link was posted early in this thread but Bob Edmison's Lister-Chevy has been mentioned several times since so I'll repost it. The linked page features a photo of the car and Bob Edmison's comments:

http://www.tamsoldra...isonLister.html

Tam


I'd owned the ex-Edmiston Lister Corvette from around late 1968 through 1973. I traded my Aston DB-2 #83 to Tom Flaherty at A.J. Risley's where we both had worked. He'd bought it from Airline Motors near Pomona minus engine and put a mildly tweeked 327 in it with a Powerglide! We goosed the tranny and I drove it on the street to school and recording sessions, and sometimes street raced for rent. It was quite illegal and quite stupid, but I was not a clever lad at the time. The only ticket it received was for loud exhaust in Peterson's parking lot at Sunset and La Cieniga. To register it I stamped "LS 11" on the frame and added mufflers and an MGB windshield. I spraypainted it grey and black primer to cut night visibility. I won't go into detail but it worked. A British broker through Dan Margulies sold it to John Harper who won at Goodwood and Silverstone so handily that the BRDC demanded, so I heard, that he dump the Yank V8 and put a Jag in it. He did and still won. Somewhere, other than my site, I have photos and some Super 8 of it in over-the-limit action in Silverlake. I'll try to dig it up.
How do I add photos to this other than via url?
There are some on my site: www.pvbms.com/ on the "Photos 3" page.

Happy trails,
Peter

Edited by pvbms, 18 January 2010 - 04:44.


#144 RA Historian

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 16:08

Posted Image

This is the former Cunningham 59 Lister-Jag, BHL-123, owned many years by Syd Silverman. I note that it is now up for auction. Silverman has been selling off his Lister collection for the last several years, and if I am not mistaken, this is the last one that he has.
Tom

Edited by RA Historian, 18 January 2010 - 16:10.


#145 Peter Morley

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 16:12

Well, given that curmudgeonly quotation, I'm not sure how many of you might be interested to see the photos I just uploaded here:
Detailed current photos of an actively raced Costin-bodied Lister Jaguar: BHL-123

Please do me a favor! If you spot any errors in the write-up or captions please let me know and I'll update them.

I'm also interested to point out interesting design changes that have occurred over its fifty year racing history. For example, maybe you can help me identify:

1) Who made these front brake calipers? (They don't look like Girlings to me. AP?)

2) What donor car provided these front suspension uprights? (Morris Oxford would be original, but...)

3) What's this yellowed plastic reservoir for, rearward of the headers? (It ain't for windscreen washer fluid!)

(The lid looks like the Lockheed master cylinder lid on my MGB... but smaller.
However all three master cylinders are located on the opposite side of the car.)

Bonus question: Who made the steering rack on original Lister Jaguars. THANKS!


The calipers are Girling, not ARs but the larger version BRs or even CRs.
Uprights look about right (similar to Lea Francis = Connaught), I'd worry more about the dodgy dampers, anti roll bar, ignition system etc. etc...

Extra fluid reservoir could be something to do with the "residual pressure braking system" it is apparently fitted with, that should also be on the dodgy component list!

Edited by Peter Morley, 18 January 2010 - 16:13.


#146 BritishV8

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 19:50

The calipers are Girling, not ARs but the larger version BRs or even CRs.
Uprights look about right (similar to Lea Francis = Connaught), I'd worry more about the dodgy dampers, anti roll bar, ignition system etc. etc...

Extra fluid reservoir could be something to do with the "residual pressure braking system" it is apparently fitted with, that should also be on the dodgy component list!


Thank you, Peter.

Apparently you're using the term "dodgy" for parts that are different from how the car was built in 1959. Yes, quite a lot of parts on this car are newer than 1959! It's been raced frequently, and as recently as September, so it understandably has a number of modifications to keep it safe, reliable, and I suppose somewhat competitive within its class. I just hope it keeps racing...

A "Wilwood residual pressure valve" is a very simple $20 part that installs like an inline fitting in a brake line, and reduces how far disc brake pads pull away from the rotors. Drivers like them because they slightly reduce pedal stroke; providing a perception that the pedal is firmer. I put them on my own car, and can testify that they DO make the brake pedal seem more effective (although the ultimate amount of braking force available is unchanged.) They're not "dodgy" in the other senses of that word: "of questionable integrity or value". The red-anodized aluminum part in this photo is a Wilwood residual pressure valve:
Posted Image
(In this photo you can also see the KONI 8212 shocks - absolutely state of the art in 1967! - and the Schroeder anti-sway bar - a very nice piece of kit, details here. Did you spot the alternator?)

So how does it run? With Mike (Syd's son) driving at Watkins Glen in September it was a leisurely 27seconds/lap off the pace, but for anyone who questions whether U.S. vintage racing is really racing or just a parade, the cars at the front (Dave Handy's 1600cc Lotus 23B and Larry Neviaser's 2.0L Ginetta G16) were going pretty good... ~2:10/lap = ~94mph average around the 3.4 mile circuit.


I'm still wondering about that reservoir...

#147 fbarrett

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 20:17

I'm still wondering about that reservoir...


Hydraulic clutch fluid reservoir?

Frank


#148 Peter Morley

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 23:35

Thank you, Peter.

Apparently you're using the term "dodgy" for parts that are different from how the car was built in 1959. Yes, quite a lot of parts on this car are newer than 1959! It's been raced frequently, and as recently as September, so it understandably has a number of modifications to keep it safe, reliable, and I suppose somewhat competitive within its class. I just hope it keeps racing...

A "Wilwood residual pressure valve" is a very simple $20 part that installs like an inline fitting in a brake line, and reduces how far disc brake pads pull away from the rotors. Drivers like them because they slightly reduce pedal stroke; providing a perception that the pedal is firmer. I put them on my own car, and can testify that they DO make the brake pedal seem more effective (although the ultimate amount of braking force available is unchanged.) They're not "dodgy" in the other senses of that word: "of questionable integrity or value". The red-anodized aluminum part in this photo is a Wilwood residual pressure valve:

(In this photo you can also see the KONI 8212 shocks - absolutely state of the art in 1967! - and the Schroeder anti-sway bar - a very nice piece of kit, details here. Did you spot the alternator?)

So how does it run? With Mike (Syd's son) driving at Watkins Glen in September it was a leisurely 27seconds/lap off the pace, but for anyone who questions whether U.S. vintage racing is really racing or just a parade, the cars at the front (Dave Handy's 1600cc Lotus 23B and Larry Neviaser's 2.0L Ginetta G16) were going pretty good... ~2:10/lap = ~94mph average around the 3.4 mile circuit.


I'm still wondering about that reservoir...


Yes dodgy as in originality rather than performance.
In Europe he'd be lucky to be allowed to use those dampers on anything other than a 70s/80s F1 car (even some of them wouldn't be allowed to use the alloy version!).

It should be very competitive in its class, assuming it is running in a historic class, since as you say it has a few parts that are slightly out of period!!
I didn't notice the alternator but having seen the starter motor I assumed it would be better than original - we've been known to use alternators fitted inside Lucas dynamo style cases in Europe!!

Does the residual pressure valve keep the pads in contact with the disc? In which case does it heat the pads up significantly and/or increase wear?
Thinking of that I'm amazed the callipers are period ones, I've seen smaller cars fitted with more modern 4 piston calipers and I'm sure a Lister needs as much help as possible stopping.

As Frank said the obvious use of the reservoir is clutch - maybe they aren't using the original reservoir, or could it be something to do with a concentric clutch cylinder which I assume has been fitted (it has everything else!).

It does say they have Dunlop calipers on the back - well the early Dunlop calipers as used on a D-type, Connaught F1 etc were a pressurised system, with a hydraulic pump driven off the gearbox I don't think anyone still uses that system but if they were it might need all sorts of fluid/pressure reservoirs?

Peter

#149 bandini

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Posted 07 April 2010 - 14:44

Is Ted Peterson still alive and where did he live and where did he do his racing in the Costin Lister before he rolled the car? Did he race any other cars?

Thanks Tim

#150 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 08 April 2010 - 06:17

Is Ted Peterson still alive and where did he live and where did he do his racing in the Costin Lister before he rolled the car? Did he race any other cars?

Thanks Tim


I don't know whether Ted Peterson is still alive or not. He did some vintage racing in one of the Old Yeller cars with Peter Shea. Perhaps TNF member T54, who is a friend of Shea, could put you in touch with him. Peterson apparently lived in Newport Beach, California. Did you see post #74 on this thread? Some results at this link:

http://www.racingspo...terson-USA.html

Photo of him in his Maserati at this link:

http://www.tamsoldra...rMaseratis.html

Vince H.