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Lister sports-racing cars in the USA


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#151 ZOOOM

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Posted 10 April 2010 - 00:29

As noted above, during the '59 season, Nickey Chevrolet owned a lister.
In 1959, I was 14 years old....
A friend and I stopped by Nickey and visited the service department.
Posted Image

Yup.... That's me. IIRC the lister even at that time, was a sorry piece of used racing equipment.
Right next to the Lister is the B production SCCA winner, the Nickey "purple people eater"
corvette of Jim Jeffords.

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#152 RA Historian

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Posted 10 April 2010 - 14:41

That Lister was BHL-112. It was never raced by Nickey. They intended to drop a Chevy into it (a Jaguar six was in it as delivered), but their acquisition of a Scarab made the Lister plans very redundant. The car moved on to Milrace Motors of suburban Milwaukee, which raced it in 1960 with Fred Rediske as the driver. It moved on to Howard Quick, who ran it for several years, then Dick Dagiel, who (finally!) stuck a Chevy into it and ran it through 1967, by which time it was decidedly long in tooth. Tom MacArthur owned the car for many years, and restored it back to its original condition and with a Jag six. It moved through the Silverman collection, and I believe (correct me if I am wrong) it may now be in the Tom Malloy collection.
Tom

#153 Jerry Entin

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Posted 11 April 2010 - 04:29

Ted Peterson passed away some time ago. He raced McLaren's and Ol Yellar and many other beautiful cars.

#154 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 12 April 2010 - 06:37

I recently published Bill Pollack's autobiography and from his information, the Knobbly Lister Bill raced was originally purchased by Tom Carstens. Bruce Crower of San Diego built the Chevrolet engine for Carstens. Carstens sold the Lister (BHL110) to Al Dean. Bill raced it first at the '58 Times Grand Prix at Riverside for Dean.

Bill's primary recollection of the car is the trouble he had with the aerodynamics. The front end would lift at speed and the high fender bulges would effectively block out everything on either side of the car, passing cars was problematic as they would disappear behind the Lister bodywork.

The last race of Bill's career was at Laguna Seca Raceway in this Lister. This Lister came to its end as The Sorrell/Larkin Special in a ball of fire at Riverside Raceway where it was buried at Turn One. Here is another link to Tam's site, this page featuring a great photo of the burning special. http://www.tamsoldra...#Sorrell-Larkin

...Mark Godfrey


Here is a link to a Lister-Jaguar listed as BHL 110:

http://www.motorbase...-id/1530856504/

Vince H.




#155 RA Historian

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Posted 12 April 2010 - 16:18

Interesting, that ad regarding BHL-110 conveniently overlooks the fact that what was BHL-110 and what is purported to be BHL-110 today really are not one and the same. Well, maybe today's BHL-110 contains the original shift knob, but certainly not much else. The original was essentially destroyed back in the very early 1960s. Interesting that the ad paints a glorious uninterrupted history with the car never having been so much as scratched. Oh well. :rolleyes:
Tom

#156 Jerry Entin

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Posted 25 April 2010 - 19:58

In spite of Paul Skilleter's recent book on the Listers we don't seem to be any closer in identifying a number of the cars that were imported by Carroll Shelby Sports Cars Inc, especially the ones that raced in Texas, Oklahoma and Louisiana.

Looking at their first race appearances, we find:

- Jim Hall at Santa Barbara in August 1958 [engine installed by Sonny Balcaen]
- Jimmy Younger at Galveston in September 1958 [engine installed by Jim Saunders]

Then a year goes by for the next two Listers to appear:

- Ronnie Hissom at Mansfield in September 1959 [engine installer unknown so far]
- Joe Mabee at Midland in October 1959 [engine installed by himself]

Hall's car was BHL 108. Mabee's car was blue with two stripes, so it is likely to have been the car that went to Ed Cantrell, then Art Huttinger [BHL 117 or BHL 17???]. Hissom complained that his Lister had an earlier chassis number than the Hall car. Could it have been BHL 106 or 107, apparently cars that came to the U.S.?

Since Younger's car appeared around the same time as Hall's [in fact, it made the first Lister apperance in Texas], is n't it likely that its chassis should be close to Hall's, e.g. BHL 107 or 106 [depending what Hissom's number was]?

all research Willem Oosthoek

#157 David McKinney

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Posted 25 April 2010 - 21:52

Philippe Renault claimed that BHL106 went to Cunningham and 107 to Kelso, but Cunningham already had 101, 102 and 112, and surely the Kelso car was 114?

I have Hissom in BHL118 and a suggestion that Younger's was 117/17 (as distinct from 117) before it went to Pete Harrison in Georgia, back to Ed Cantrell in Texas and on to Art Huttinger in Florida

I don't have any number listed for Mabee

Of other low-number cars, 103-05 were in Europe as were 109 and 111, and 110 is on the wrong coast with Tom Carstens

Research probably by Doug Nye (I haven't cross-referenced it)

#158 David Birchall

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Posted 26 April 2010 - 00:08

I recall racing against a mat black Lister Chev at Portland in the late seventies/early eighties. It had the most enormous bulge on the bonnet to clear the carbs and had been owned originally, but not raced, by a woman. They stuffed it into the armco before the end of the event and I considered making an offer...

#159 Jerry Entin

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Posted 26 April 2010 - 01:37

David:
A few comments. Mabee's Lister looked very much like Cantrell's, both in color and in body features. I don't think Pete Harrison was the owner before Cantrell, being very much a production racer [AC/Bristol] then . Also, Cantrell was from Florida, not Texas. Both Mabee and Cantrell were vintage plane enthusiasts and that may have been the connection between the men.

Younger's Lister on the other hand was red and its body features don't look like the Cantrell car at all, hence its history must be different after Younger sold it, when ever that was.

all research Willem Oosthoek

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#160 David McKinney

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Posted 26 April 2010 - 05:44

Thanks Jerry

I should have made clear that I was not disputing what you were saying, merely throwing in some extra bits which might have helped

David B:
Your opponent might have been the car campaigned originally by Mrs Henry Clark Boden, originally with Fred Windridge as driver, and sometimes George Constantine. It was BHL114, known as the Kelso-Chevrolet. By 1979 it was being raced by Californian Bill Harlan - does that name ring a bell?

#161 Red Socks

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Posted 26 April 2010 - 09:48

Whilst we are on the subject can anyone tell me -or better yet got any pictures of- what the Chevrolet engines fitted in period were using for induction.
I know what various cars are using today-Kinsler, Chevrolet injection and Weber carbs but what did they have fitted in the fifties?

#162 David Birchall

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Posted 26 April 2010 - 15:04

Thanks Jerry

I should have made clear that I was not disputing what you were saying, merely throwing in some extra bits which might have helped

David B:
Your opponent might have been the car campaigned originally by Mrs Henry Clark Boden, originally with Fred Windridge as driver, and sometimes George Constantine. It was BHL114, known as the Kelso-Chevrolet. By 1979 it was being raced by Californian Bill Harlan - does that name ring a bell?


Yes it does, he was a wild man in an Allard J2X before he got the Lister, but I seem to recall this was the owner before him-Harlan was pretty good!

#163 David McKinney

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Posted 26 April 2010 - 17:23

Can't help
The owner before him on my list is Joel Finn, some years earlier and on the wrong coast

#164 Jerry Entin

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Posted 26 April 2010 - 21:45

Posted Image
At Daytona 1959 it looks like the Kelso Lister used fuel injection.
So did Jim Hall, until Red Byron installed a supercharger by Norm Latham on BHL 108 early in 1959.

all research Willem Oosthoek
photo : Willem Oosthoek collection

#165 horizon

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Posted 27 April 2010 - 02:01

I have a BW photo of a costin Lister (uk Reg. # WXC 325, with # 64 on the nose/rear body) with 8 intake stacks sticking out of the bonnet. They look like hilborn to me.

Edited by horizon, 27 April 2010 - 02:02.


#166 David McKinney

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Posted 27 April 2010 - 06:57

Although the car was Chev-engined from the start, I don't think it got that reg.no. till it returned to the UK n the late '80s. So your stacks might not be period

#167 davegess

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Posted 27 April 2010 - 15:52

I will dig though my files (more properly called "boxes of junk") and see it I can't find my shots of Tom Macarthurs Lister Chevy on the road. When he first had this car he drove it on the street. He has a pretty good story abouit driving it home after he prucahsed it. As I remember the car it had been raced by the Nickey Chevy folks. Don't know if they bought it sans engine or not. Last I heard (many years ago) he had put a Jag engine back in.

If anyone talks to him ask him about the story and say HI for me, although I doubt he has any recollection of me;)

If I can find the photos I will get them posted.

Dave



#168 Red Socks

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Posted 27 April 2010 - 15:56

Posted Image
At Daytona 1959 it looks like the Kelso Lister used fuel injection.
So did Jim Hall, until Red Byron installed a supercharger by Norm Latham on BHL 108 early in 1959.

all research Willem Oosthoek
photo : Willem Oosthoek collection

Jerry - great photo thank you.Any idea of the make of injection used?


#169 Jerry Entin

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Posted 27 April 2010 - 23:02

Red Socks:

The black Kelso Lister used a Chevy V8 that received the full Scarab treatment. At RAI they used Stu Hilborn's product on the Scarabs.

The Hall car, with its Chevy V8 installed by Raul Balcaen just before he joined RAI, is likely to have had Hilborn fuel injection as well.

Not sure about the red Jimmy Younger Lister in the photo, but again most likely the Hilborn route

all research: Willem Oosthoek

Edited by Jerry Entin, 20 January 2011 - 13:14.


#170 RA Historian

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Posted 27 April 2010 - 23:48

I will dig though my files (more properly called "boxes of junk") and see it I can't find my shots of Tom Macarthurs Lister Chevy on the road. When he first had this car he drove it on the street. He has a pretty good story abouit driving it home after he prucahsed it. As I remember the car it had been raced by the Nickey Chevy folks. Don't know if they bought it sans engine or not. Last I heard (many years ago) he had put a Jag engine back in.
Dave


Dave, see my earlier post on the subject, quoted directly below:

That Lister was BHL-112. It was never raced by Nickey. They intended to drop a Chevy into it (a Jaguar six was in it as delivered), but their acquisition of a Scarab made the Lister plans very redundant. The car moved on to Milrace Motors of suburban Milwaukee, which raced it in 1960 with Fred Rediske as the driver. It moved on to Howard Quick, who ran it for several years, then Dick Dagiel, who (finally!) stuck a Chevy into it and ran it through 1967, by which time it was decidedly long in tooth. Tom MacArthur owned the car for many years, and restored it back to its original condition and with a Jag six. It moved through the Silverman collection, and I believe (correct me if I am wrong) it may now be in the Tom Malloy collection.
Tom


Nickey never raced it. It had a three liter Jaguar engine in it when they had it, and when it was raced by Milrace. Howard Quick put a 3.8 Jaguar six in it when he acquired it, and then Dick Dagiel put a Chevy V-8 in it. MacArthur had it restored to original shape, but with a 3.8 Jag six, not 3.0. He also painted it green, which was its color when Quick raced it. The car was dark blue in its Milrace days, and black when Dagiel ran it. By that time it was quite scruffy, so MacArthur did a fine job of restoration. It likely did have a Chevy in it when MacArthur purchased it, but that was from its Dagiel days, not before, and certainly not Nickey. It merely passed through Nickey's hands, they never raced it, and never put a Chevy into it.

Tom

Edited by RA Historian, 27 April 2010 - 23:50.


#171 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 05:04

According to Martin Rudow's book, "Long Straights and Hairpin Turns," Tom Carstens' Knobbly had a "266-based Chevy...modified further by Vic Edelbrock." His Costin used "...a new 283 Chevy Engine also race-prepared by Edebrock to 333 ci. The resulting six-carburetor proved to be troublesome..."

I remember seeing it "blowing back" at Westwood.

What induction would that have been?

Vince H.

#172 ssperka

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Posted 16 May 2010 - 01:54

With reference to the red Lister in the background in the 1959 Daytona race photo in Post #164, race #212, Jerry/Willem refer to it as the Jimmy Younger car, but the car is listed as driven in the race by A.J. Foyt with no entrant name given. So this is the Jimmy Younger car as driven by A.J.? and we still don't know which car the Younger car was? Another Daytona mystery still remaining, I believe, would be the 1962 race and the Bill Frick entry driven by Joe Weatherly. Any ideas on that one? How about BHL114 later becoming the Ross McCain "Lister Special", he used race #72 as in the clearly-former-Kelso car (see nose of car) that is identified as driven as Ed Lowther in the Spring of 1963 (earlier post) and McCain raced a #72 in the Fall Road America race. Same car? Any McCain photos out there? Thanks, to all for a fascinating thread!
-Scott

#173 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 16 May 2010 - 05:07

Another Daytona mystery still remaining, I believe, would be the 1962 race and the Bill Frick entry driven by Joe Weatherly. Any ideas on that one?
How about BHL114 later becoming the Ross McCain "Lister Special", he used race #72 as in the clearly-former-Kelso car (see nose of car) that is identified as driven as Ed Lowther in the Spring of 1963 (earlier post) and McCain raced a #72 in the Fall Road America race. Same car? Any McCain photos out there


Here are links to two photos:

http://www.racingspo...2-02-11-008.jpg

http://www.racingspo...3-10-27-072.jpg

Vince H.

Edited by raceannouncer2003, 17 May 2010 - 06:00.


#174 Jerry Entin

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Posted 16 May 2010 - 13:37

Scott:
#212 was Jimmy Younger's regular number and his name actually appears on the side of the Lister/Chevy that AJ Foyt raced at Daytona in 1959.

As for the Bill Frick-entered Costin Lister/Chevy raced by Joe Weatherly at Daytona in 1962, I would be very surprised if it wasn't chassis BHL 123, the former Cunningham car.
Reasons: identical body features, including the paint job, plus the fact that there was a personal connection between Cunningham and Frick. Cunningham took over the Long island speed shop that Frick ran with Phil Walters, and moved it to West Palm Beach for the manufacturing of the Cunningham cars. Frick became his employee.

all research Willem Oosthoek

Edited by Jerry Entin, 16 May 2010 - 13:38.


#175 ssperka

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Posted 18 May 2010 - 01:18

..., I would be very surprised if it wasn't chassis BHL 123, the former Cunningham car.
Reasons: identical body features, including the paint job, ..."

all research Willem Oosthoek


I guess we can use the same logic to arrive at a similar conclusion with the Gene Hobbs car run at Marlboro (pictured here: Hobbs Costin-Lister). Would you agree that the E. E. "Gene" Hobbs, Jr. Costin-Lister is also the ex-Cunningham car, BHL123?

Does anyone have any clues as to the Berkeley Charvoz Lister entered or present at the June and September races at Road America in 1958?

Thanks, again.
-Scott

#176 RA Historian

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Posted 18 May 2010 - 14:26

Does anyone have any clues as to the Berkeley Charvoz Lister entered or present at the June and September races at Road America in 1958?

I remember seeing it. Can't tell you exactly what the color was, but I seem to recall that it was dark blue. It was listed in the entry for the 1958 Road America June Sprints as:

"88 Berkley L. Charvoz, Flossmoor, Illinois Lister-Jag DM"

Never heard anything of Charvoz and the car after '58. But...(we are going into speculation here) you will note that the car was listed as being in class DM, which was two to three liters. Hence, the car must have had the destroked Jaguar three liter six on board. Then, for 1960, Milrace Motors bought just such a Lister with three liter engine from Nickey Chevrolet which briefly had BHL-112 pass through its hands without their having raced it at all. Based on the dark blue color, which the Milrace car had, and the three liter engine, is it possible that the Charvoz three liter Lister-Jag of 1958 is the same as the Milrace car?
Tom

#177 ssperka

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Posted 18 May 2010 - 15:17

I remember seeing it. Can't tell you exactly what the color was, but I seem to recall that it was dark blue. It was listed in the entry for the 1958 Road America June Sprints as:

"88 Berkley L. Charvoz, Flossmoor, Illinois Lister-Jag DM"

Never heard anything of Charvoz and the car after '58. But...(we are going into speculation here) you will note that the car was listed as being in class DM, which was two to three liters. Hence, the car must have had the destroked Jaguar three liter six on board. Then, for 1960, Milrace Motors bought just such a Lister with three liter engine from Nickey Chevrolet which briefly had BHL-112 pass through its hands without their having raced it at all. Based on the dark blue color, which the Milrace car had, and the three liter engine, is it possible that the Charvoz three liter Lister-Jag of 1958 is the same as the Milrace car?
Tom


You are right on, Tom! You gave the race #88 for Charvoz for the June Sprints. For the Fall RA500 he used race #46 and finished 26th. You will note the number on the car pictured in the service bay at Nickey, Post #151, is number 46. I'm pretty comfortable with your engine size/class logic, even though we can't see a class designation in the photo, and with the matching car number from the Fall race . . . gotta be BHL112!



#178 TEDD

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Posted 22 May 2010 - 09:31

You are right on, Tom! You gave the race #88 for Charvoz for the June Sprints. For the Fall RA500 he used race #46 and finished 26th. You will note the number on the car pictured in the service bay at Nickey, Post #151, is number 46. I'm pretty comfortable with your engine size/class logic, even though we can't see a class designation in the photo, and with the matching car number from the Fall race . . . gotta be BHL112!

My father Rich Dagiel bought BHL 112 from Howard Quick in late 1965, at that time it was painted a med. metallic (scarab) blue and had a 3.8 Jaguar racing motor in it. The car was given to Howard by his wife as a gift for Christmas, she actually had it brought into their house across a swimming pool on ramps and put it next to the tree.
Over the winter of 65-66 my father rebuilt the car and the Jag engine himself out in the garage, the color was supposed to be BRG but it was mixed wrong at the paint store and came out more of a bluish black.
1st race was at Wilmot Hills in may of 66 where he finished 1st in class and 1st overall after passing Jerry Dunbar’s Corvette on the grass along the straightaway and out dragging him to the finish line. Next race was the June Sprints and then 2 successful seasons of SCCA club races in the Midwest.
At Milwaukee he lost the nose piece going down the straight and it went sailing into the grandstands. At IRP he hit an oil patch and over revved the Jag. motor and bent the valves. So that’s when he put a Chevy in it, which was a 327 350h.p out of a wrecked 66 Corvette. The last race in the Lister for him was the 67 Road America 500, running at the end and finished 13th place.
His plans after that were to drive the Lister on the street as he had purchased a Lotus 30 from Bob Shaw for the 68 season. (the same one he co drove w/Bob at the 66 RA 500).
The Lister was not advertised for sale but one day in the summer of 68 Tom McArthur showed up with cash and a trailer, he was also helped by the fact the Lotus had recently suffered a rear suspension failure and a deal was made. (or as he would jokingly say McArthur took advantage of him)
McArthur had the car rebuilt with the Chevy still in it and drove it around the streets of Milwaukee with his gang. Thru the 70’s we would often see Tom and the old Lister up at Road America. at the 70 RA Can Am race he pulled in with the Lister followed by Bill Porter in an Allard, Mark Daniels in a C Type Jag and another guy in a Porsche Spyder, I recall it being used as a pace car at a race in the late 70's. Sometime in the 80’s McArthur started vintage racing it and went off at corner 12 and put it over, it was then that he had it restored and went back to to a Jaguar engine for power. (he also installed roll bar)
The old story I remember is that BHL 112 was a factory magnesium body car brought over for the ’58 Sebring race hence a 3.0 engine, was run in practice had an accident and did not make the race. For sure the car was at Nickey as my father saw it there too.
The connection with Charvoz running in D mod with a 3.0 fits in perfectly. The picture with #46 on it ties it in nicely also.
The car is also listed on the Cunningham website as one of theirs along with 101 and 102
So what happened at Sebring and who was going to drive it?

For BHL 112 I have

Cunningham / Lister? 3.0 Jag
Berkley Charvoz 3.0 Jag
Richard Vogel 3.0 / 3.8 Jag
Howard Quick 3.8 Jag
Rich Dagiel 3.8 Jag / 327 Chev
Tom McArthur 327 Chev / 3.8 Jag
Syd Silverman 3.8 Jag
Tom Malloy 3.8 Jag

Edited by TEDD, 22 May 2010 - 11:50.


#179 Jerry Entin

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Posted 22 May 2010 - 14:24

The 1958 Sebring program, printed before any late-moment changes or practice accidents would have taken place, has just two Cunningham Lister/Jags, without race numbers:

- one for Archie Scott-Brown, Walt Hansgen and Russell Boss

- one for Eddie Crawford, Pat O'Connor and Russell Boss

The program also contains a "reserve listing" for a Cunningham D-type for Briggs, Lake Underwood and again, Russell Boss.

In practice two drivers other than the assigned ones were at the wheel of the Listers, Lake Underwood and Gordon Benett. I have a photo of Benett in the #10 Lister.

This might indicate that a third Lister entry was planned but based on the allocation of the race numbers [#10 and #11 for the Listers, #12 for the reserve D-type that made the race, #9 for the Ecurie Ecosse D-type and #14 for the winning 250TR], I doubt it.

Nevertheless, it is possible that a third Lister/Jag was brought along as a back-up car, in case one of the two entered Listers encountered problems before the race.

all research Willem Oosthoek

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#180 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 23 May 2010 - 05:42

For BHL 112 I have

Cunningham / Lister? 3.0 Jag
Berkley Charvoz 3.0 Jag
Richard Vogel 3.0 / 3.8 Jag
Howard Quick 3.8 Jag
Rich Dagiel 3.8 Jag / 327 Chev
Tom McArthur 327 Chev / 3.8 Jag
Syd Silverman 3.8 Jag
Tom Malloy 3.8 Jag


On the Briggs Cunningham website, Larry Berman also has two more as owners between Tom McArthur and Syd Silverman: Jim Coffman and Peter Giddings. And BHL 112 is not mentioned in any of the race history for the Cunningham team in 1958, though it is listed as one of the Cunningham cars.

In 1965, your father apparently drove the "Dirty-Pop Special" at Road America. What was that?

Vince H.


#181 TEDD

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Posted 23 May 2010 - 13:29

On the Briggs Cunningham website, Larry Berman also has two more as owners between Tom McArthur and Syd Silverman: Jim Coffman and Peter Giddings. And BHL 112 is not mentioned in any of the race history for the Cunningham team in 1958, though it is listed as one of the Cunningham cars.

In 1965, your father apparently drove the "Dirty-Pop Special" at Road America. What was that?

Vince H.

Jim Kaufman didn't own it but he did beautifully restore it for Tom McArthur. where does Nickey fit in? did they own it in early 58, sell it to Charvos and then resell it to Vogel. or did they get it from Carvoz in Late 58 (car would have been in the chicago area) and sell it to Vogel?

here is a link that mentions Giddings http://www.motorspor...tail.asp?car=12

the 3.0 motor in the car (112) has got to tie it to the Sebring race somehow, or at least someones intetions of running it there.

Was actualy called the " Dirty Pup ", a C mod. special he built, had a tube frame and Devin body, an aluminium Buick 215, vw front susp. and Jaguar xk rear susp. Got it from Guy Wooley (who at one time owned the Bosley Mk 1 and raced a F1 cooper climax). The car was originaly a Jag. xk 120/140 (eng. and susp.) based special built by some engineers who worked for Caterpillar

Edited by TEDD, 24 May 2010 - 16:30.


#182 RA Historian

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Posted 23 May 2010 - 21:59

Jim Kaufman didn't own it but he did beautifully restore it for Tom McArthur. where does Nickey fit in? did they own it in early 58, sell it to Charvos and then resell it to Vogel. or did they get it from Carvoz in Late 58 (car would have been in the chicago area) and sell it to Vogel?

As I understand it, Nickey bought the car from Charvoz. The idea was to put a Chevy in it and run it for overall wins, building on the success of their 1958 Championship in BP with a Corvette driven by Jim Jeffords. However, this never happened. Before they could suitably modify the Lister, Jim Jeffords did a deal with Lance Reventlow, buying the Scarab. Jeffords then did a deal with Nickey, where Nickey ran the Scarab for him in early 1959. With the Lister now being quite redundant, it was sold exactly as they got it from Charvoz, with three liter Jaguar six. Nickey sold it to Milrace Motors of Thiensville, Wis., owned by Richard Vogel. Fred Rediske drove the car for Milrace, still with the three liter engine.
Tom

#183 TEDD

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Posted 20 January 2011 - 06:53

Found this pic online of Dad in BHL 112 at the 67 June Sprints plus other great pics in the set!

http://www.flickr.co...57625338357443/






#184 Jerry Entin

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Posted 20 January 2011 - 13:08

Posted Image
Here is a great photo of the car in question




photo: Willem Oosthoek collection

#185 David McKinney

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Posted 20 January 2011 - 16:36

Does 'DM' mean it had a 3-litre engine?

#186 RA Historian

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Posted 20 January 2011 - 16:44

Does 'DM' mean it had a 3-litre engine?

Yes. At the time of this photo SCCA class DM was for cars over two liters and up to three.

This photo was taken on the starting grid at the 1958 Road America 500, where the car was entered by Berkley Charvoz and driven by himself and Ron Letellier.

Tom

Edited by RA Historian, 20 January 2011 - 16:48.


#187 ralt12

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 04:01

In the late '70's my friend Tom Bechet and I had located a white Lister-Buick in Pawling, New York. We knew it was a Lister because it looked just like Charlie Gibson's, only it had a Buick engine, as opposed to Charlie's Vette-powered car. It was stored outside and was up to its hubs in mud, a big job. At the time, the owner wanted $5500 for it, and we said that we'd think about it; the big deal at the time was that we were both in apartments in New York, and needed to find some room for this project. We finally convinced my parents to make room in a corner of the garage in upstate New York. So off we went back to Pawling, only to find out that the car had been sold to a fellow from Pittsburg.
Anyone here buy that car?

Edited by ralt12, 21 January 2011 - 04:02.


#188 terryokv2

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 06:32

Does anyone have any knowledge of the history of BHL 119 while in the US? It sold to the US in approximately 1960 and returned to the UK in 1970. It was then restored by John May who said it had an SCCA badge on the dash and was mat black in color. From 1970 on it was heavily raced in the UK and well known by Paul Skilleter and others. I own the car and researching its history. I would appreciate any information or photos during any period of the cars life. thanks. terrylarsonjaguar@msn.com

#189 David McKinney

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 07:43

Is that the car recently campaigned by John McCaw?

Apparently it wasn't called BHL119 at the time of its 1970s UK restoration, but BHL2, with registration MVE303. The real BHL2/MVE303 was elsewhere at the time however, so the ex-US car was sold as BHL119. Whether that was on the basis of further research which established that as its true identity, or a "missing" number was used, I do not know

I know nothing of the "real" BHL119's US history, but there is again a suggestion that it was a renumbering of BHL3 (VPP9), which numbers the works ran on two cars in 1958 - the one Archie Scott-Brown was killed in at Spa, and the replacement raced by Walt Hansgen, Bruce Halford, John Bekaert and Ross Jensen. It disappears from the record at the end of that year

Syd Silverman's BHL3/VPP9 is thought to be a 1970s replica

#190 terryokv2

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 16:32



I purchased the car last year from John McCaw and have been racing it. As we know, and as Doug Nye has stated previously, chassis numbers on Listers can be confusing. Sometimes they may have been altered for tax reasons, which is not something you would keep good record of. I do agree with Dougs statement in his book, powered by Jaguar, on page 187 where he states, in reference to this car, "" this author completely accepts as being a perfectly genuine, but misidentified car and which could well have begun life as the third and last 1958 works "knobbly VPP 9". He is referring to the works VPP 9 that replaced the car Archie was unfortunately killed in and the car that was raced by Walt Hansgen, Ivor Bueb, Bruce Halford, John Bekaert adn Ross Jensen as you have stated.

There are only 13 Jaguar powered, knobbly bodied listers and Research supports this theory. Using a process of elimination, looking at the individual history of each car, it appears there is no other car that could possibly be the one with the history stated above. Also, from what I can tell, there seems to be no other cars claiming this, very important history. Fortunately, I am not aware of another "BHL 119" out there which is also nice. Many other cars have duplicates somewhere. Paul Skilleter and John May both said it was a good proper genuine car when it arrived in the UK in 1970-71. I would like to find out what happend on the identity question but regardless, I am quite comfortable that this is in fact the works car that replaced the car Archie was killed in and raced by Walt Hansgen. I have spoken to Brian Lister on this as well. While he does agree with the logic and theory, as anyone knows that is aware of Lister history, there are no good records, so he can't positively confirm and you certainly can't expect him to remember chassis number questions. I am gathering period photos and history from Paul Skilleter, John May and Ferret photos. Paul Skilleter went to many of the race meetings in the 70s so has lots of photos during that time. It was very actively raced in the UK in the 70s, 80s and 90s and later. I know it was raced at Goodwood by Frank Sytner as well. I welcome any photos or history I can gather on the car, especially while in the US during the 60s. Thanks.

Edited by terryokv2, 06 February 2011 - 16:34.


#191 molestrangler

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 16:48

I purchased the car last year from John McCaw and have been racing it. As we know, and as Doug Nye has stated previously, chassis numbers on Listers can be confusing. Sometimes they may have been altered for tax reasons, which is not something you would keep good record of. I do agree with Dougs statement in his book, powered by Jaguar, on page 187 where he states, in reference to this car, "" this author completely accepts as being a perfectly genuine, but misidentified car and which could well have begun life as the third and last 1958 works "knobbly VPP 9". He is referring to the works VPP 9 that replaced the car Archie was unfortunately killed in and the car that was raced by Walt Hansgen, Ivor Bueb, Bruce Halford, John Bekaert adn Ross Jensen as you have stated.

There are only 13 Jaguar powered, knobbly bodied listers and Research supports this theory. Using a process of elimination, looking at the individual history of each car, it appears there is no other car that could possibly be the one with the history stated above. Also, from what I can tell, there seems to be no other cars claiming this, very important history. Fortunately, I am not aware of another "BHL 119" out there which is also nice. Many other cars have duplicates somewhere. Paul Skilleter and John May both said it was a good proper genuine car when it arrived in the UK in 1970-71. I would like to find out what happend on the identity question but regardless, I am quite comfortable that this is in fact the works car that replaced the car Archie was killed in and raced by Walt Hansgen. I have spoken to Brian Lister on this as well. While he does agree with the logic and theory, as anyone knows that is aware of Lister history, there are no good records, so he can't positively confirm and you certainly can't expect him to remember chassis number questions. I am gathering period photos and history from Paul Skilleter, John May and Ferret photos. Paul Skilleter went to many of the race meetings in the 70s so has lots of photos during that time. It was very actively raced in the UK in the 70s, 80s and 90s and later. I know it was raced at Goodwood by Frank Sytner as well. I welcome any photos or history I can gather on the car, especially while in the US during the 60s. Thanks.



#192 molestrangler

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 17:11

Lister Jaguar carrying BHL 119.
First imported to UK with no chassis number by Chris Renwick approx 1970.
Chris applied for and got the old MVE 303 logbook which carried the chassis number 2/19.
Anthony Hutton bought the car and had a restoration carried out by John May.
The car then went to Forward Engineering and was race developed and run by John Harper and Anthony Hutton.
This went on for some years and then the car was sold to Philippe Renault.
After Renault sold the car another claimant of the identity had appeared and because that seemed to have a better claim
the first car claimed BHL 119 purely because it sounded nearest and no one else was claiming it.
It was largely wishful thinking that attributed a works history to this car as it had no particular works features although it was
undoubtedly a genuine car. Incidentally it was not black when it was imported.
Any claim that this was any form of works car is pure fantasy.

#193 terryokv2

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 18:12


John May is the one that told me it was black when it was shipped to the UK. He seemed quite certain of this and he did the restoration so should know. I have not yet recieved photos from Paul Skilleter or John as it was when it arrived in the UK. It is true that the car has no connection to the works number MVE 303 but the evidence is very strong to support its connection to the car Walt drove at Silverstone.

#194 molestrangler

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 18:32

John May is the one that told me it was black when it was shipped to the UK. He seemed quite certain of this and he did the restoration so should know. I have not yet recieved photos from Paul Skilleter or John as it was when it arrived in the UK. It is true that the car has no connection to the works number MVE 303 but the evidence is very strong to support its connection to the car Walt drove at Silverstone.



#195 molestrangler

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 18:37

John May is the one that told me it was black when it was shipped to the UK. He seemed quite certain of this and he did the restoration so should know. I have not yet recieved photos from Paul Skilleter or John as it was when it arrived in the UK. It is true that the car has no connection to the works number MVE 303 but the evidence is very strong to support its connection to the car Walt drove at Silverstone.



#196 molestrangler

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 18:42

Would be very interested to see any evidence to suggest that BHL119 is an ex works car.

#197 David McKinney

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 18:44

Which BHL119?

(Sorry..)

#198 terryokv2

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 19:04

As I stated earlier, there were very few Knobbly body, Jaguar powered Lister cars built. If you look at the history of all these cars you will see the destination when new of all the others is known and none of them are listed as the car driven by Walt at Silverstone, so it would appear to be the only possible choice, unless there is evidence to suggest otherwise.

#199 David McKinney

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 22:43

If you look at the history of all these cars you will see the destination when new of all the others is known and none of them are listed as the car driven by Walt at Silverstone

That sort of statement might be unchallenged in some places, but this is TNF :)

Powered by Jaguar by Doug Nye and Lister-Jaguar by Paul Skilleter both show Hansgen's Silverstone car (VPP9) as BHL3; Archie and the Listers by Robert Edwards says BHL2

Edwards says 119 was not issued, Nye says it was possibly not originally used, and Skilleter says it was possibly supplied as a replacement chassis


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#200 terryokv2

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 23:31


David, You really need to read the entire story (on page 187) as I explained earlier. Doug Nye goes into detail and I agree with what he states. You are making short comments that do not cover the entire truth and give the wrong impression. The original BHL 3 VPP9 was destroyed and scrapped when Archie was killed. This was NOT the Hansgen car. The registration number VPP9 was transfered to another car which is what Walt raced. Paul Skilleter knows this car well and certain it is genuine but still researching its early history regarding the identity question. The histories of some of these cars can be extremelty difficult, maybe impossible, to document to the satisfaction of some people like yourself, but that is OK.