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#1 bill moffat

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Posted 31 October 2004 - 10:49

I picked up a new point and shoot digital SLR camera recently. Compared to my faithful old Olympus there has been a transformation in my photographic performance. Even when the images are not pin-sharp I can bale myself out by copying them to the scanner and indulging in a touch of editing/enhacing/cloning.

Not like that in the old days of course. OK motor sport photographers used to get closer to the action as they were not "protected" by 50 metres of gravel trap, a tyre wall and a safety fence to confuse the auto-focus. Close enough that we have all seen old examples of race drivers recognising and waving (or V-signing) at their photographer friends. However the equipment they used was such that several rolls of film may have been needed to give them that one perfect shot.

So who was the greatest motor sport lens man ?. From the Seeberger brothers onwards we have seen great work from such as Edward Eves, Alan Smith, Colin Waldeck, Geoff Goddard, David Phipps and so many others.

My favourites ? Well, Waldeck's Graham Hill BRM at Monaco study inevitably hangs above the fireplace whilst Geoff Goddard/DCN's book "Track Pass" is the motor sport equivalent of a pint of Young's Special and a plate of mature cheddar cubes on a Sunday Lunchtime..

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#2 KJJ

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Posted 31 October 2004 - 13:08

I think the old time photographers had some distinct advantages over the modern breed. First they were shooting in black and white, which is just a lot more atmospheric than colour. In my view colour is much harder to use well than monochrome. Secondly the subject matter......how do you make a mobile advertising hoarding interesting. Then of course there is the nostalgia factor, take a picture of your local high street today and it's boring whereas a picture of the same high street in 1962 is full of interest.

Once they had their techniques and their shooting positions sorted out I don't suppose there was much difficulty in shooting cars at speed in those days. Catching those moments in time on the grid and in the paddock would have been much more difficult.

A couple of photographers I admire, Schlegelmilch, Robert Daley, who I guess was an amateur photographer but there are some great shots in his book "The Cruel Sport". An under-rated snapper, Max Le Grand.

#3 Ray Bell

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Posted 31 October 2004 - 13:39

I think you'd have to say that Nigel Snowdon was pretty fair...

Mike Harding also on a good day. Peter D'Abbs... Brier Thomas... Bill Forsyth...

#4 Rob Ryder

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Posted 31 October 2004 - 14:31

Originally posted by Ray Bell
I think you'd have to say that Nigel Snowdon was pretty fair...

His 'Through the Lens' is pure joy :love: :love:
For quality, quanity (and price :up: ) I like the work of Rainer Schlegelmilch.
Rob

#5 HEROS

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Posted 31 October 2004 - 14:48

I like also the work of Bernard Cahier and Louis Klemantaski with excellent
black & white photos.

The Mille Miglia in board with Klemantaski is a great moment.

#6 Ron Scoma

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Posted 31 October 2004 - 18:24

My vote goes to George Monkhouse with Louis Klemantaski a very close second.

Ron
#41

#7 Twin Window

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Posted 31 October 2004 - 22:11

Originally posted by bill moffat

...the motor sport equivalent of a pint of Young's Special and a plate of mature cheddar cubes on a Sunday Lunchtime

Any onions?

Hi Bill :wave:

From my early days on Autosport I would say David 'Mugsie' Winter was a true star. His level of quality truly upped the ante...

At GPI, it would have to be Bernard Asset (aka 'Bassett') for his innovative - and sometimes non-conformist - F1 shooting, and Reinhardt Klein for his equally fantastic rallying images. Heck; we began covering the rally championship in 1984 largely on the strength of his ability! These two guys set standards which others are still trying to match today.

From a purely personal point of view, I too love monochrome. My time in the archives at LAT, and on Motor Sport, were priceless in the respect of seeing a great deal of fantastic b&w images, covering several decades.

Finally, I would be doing old and dear friends a gross injustice by failing to mention Charles Briscoe-Knight, Jeff Bloxham, John Townsend and Crispin Thruston. They all did/do make an extremely valid contribution to our enjoyment.

#8 Andrew Fellowes

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Posted 31 October 2004 - 23:03

Originally posted by Ray Bell
I think you'd have to say that Nigel Snowdon was pretty fair...


Agreed, he is recovering from a stroke that has robbed him of a degree of speech for the moment but was his usual cheerful self at the recent Speed on Tweed.

I hope he wont mind me telling this story of a photo that did'nt happen. Nigel was in a hire car in Canada with Peterson & Schenken. Peterson got booked for speeding, Nigel went for the camera, but Schenken said no, -pity, that would have made such a good photo!

#9 Ray Bell

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Posted 31 October 2004 - 23:17

I've been planning to drop in on Nigel some time... must make it this next trip...

His brother Chris used to take some pics as well... along with Forsyth, they were a trio who sort of hung out together... Ray Berghouse joined in too. Often one or two of them would stand at our flag point at Warwick Farm to take pics, they were always good pics there.

#10 D-Type

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Posted 31 October 2004 - 23:24

Originally posted by Twin Window
Any onions?
~


Definitely - but they have to be Garner's Old Fashioned genuine 'Retro' pickled onions.

#11 Alan Cox

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Posted 01 November 2004 - 18:30

Bill Moffat's mention of Colin Waldeck reminds one that his photo of Graham Hill at Monaco graces the National Portrait Gallery in London - quite an accolade, I venture to suggest.

Rodolfo Mailander wielded a handy Rollieflex, and Guy Griffiths' record of the whole gamut of motor sporting experience from grass roots to Grand Prix, both pre- and post-war, is priceless.

#12 TIPO61

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Posted 01 November 2004 - 18:58

Jesse Alexander.

#13 uffen

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Posted 01 November 2004 - 19:09

Paul-Henri Cahier, the son of Bernard, is an excellent photographer. His use of light and shadow is outstanding and sets his work apart from most of the current crop of snappers. Schleigelmilch is great, too, and must have the largest personal archive going.

#14 theunions

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Posted 01 November 2004 - 23:48

Peter Burke. :up:

#15 2F-001

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Posted 02 November 2004 - 11:44

Maurice Rowe, anyone?

#16 panzani

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Posted 02 November 2004 - 12:58

Karl Ludvigsen, anyone?

#17 Ralliart

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Posted 02 November 2004 - 14:33

Julius Weitmann and Benno Muller were two of the very, very best lensmen.

#18 petefenelon

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Posted 02 November 2004 - 14:39

Originally posted by Ralliart
Julius Weitmann and Benno Muller were two of the very, very best lensmen.


"Porsche Story" is a lovely little book - plenty of B&W Weitmann pics of all things Gmund and Zuffenhausen. Especially good on German racing of the 50s/early 60s.

#19 ensign14

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Posted 02 November 2004 - 14:57

Originally posted by Twin Window
At GPI, it would have to be Bernard Asset (aka 'Bassett') for his innovative - and sometimes non-conformist - F1 shooting, and Reinhardt Klein for his equally fantastic rallying images.

Bernard Asset was one of the best reasons for buying GPI. I remember his shots from atop Prost's Renault RE30 - most people would have lashed up a camera to the roll bar and have it automatically take pictures, but not Bernard...

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#20 LOTI

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Posted 02 November 2004 - 16:47

Lynton Money was best in the paddock, I think he prefered people to cars!


Loti

#21 Frank S

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Posted 02 November 2004 - 17:00

Two other "Petes":

Coltrin and Lyons

Or Lyons and Coltrin.

--
Frank S

#22 Doug Nye

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Posted 02 November 2004 - 18:04

I have known and have worked with several of the very finest racing photographers but the one who blows me away every time for consistently staggering quality from the late 1950s and through the 1960s is Bob Tronolone in the US. Nice bloke too...

DCN

#23 JohnS

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Posted 02 November 2004 - 19:01

Originally posted by 2F-001
Maurice Rowe, anyone?


Definitely. "Track Record" is wonderful.

Geoff Goddard's "Track Pass" is my other favourite.

In one respect guys working in the 60s and earlier did have it easier in that it was surely easier to take a decent photo with a background of Sicily or Clermont-Ferrand or Montjuich Park, than Magny-Cours or many of the other current "facilities". And it's true they could get closer to the track.

But the equipment they were using was incredibly primitive. Meter-less Leicas, plate cameras even. A Leica is a great camera but no-one in their right mind would use if for action photography if they didn't have to!

No autofocus, no 14-segment metering, no 600mm lenses (how do they carry those things?!).

The results they got were miraculous.

John

#24 theunions

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Posted 02 November 2004 - 23:33

Originally posted by Doug Nye
I have known and have worked with several of the very finest racing photographers but the one who blows me away every time for consistently staggering quality from the late 1950s and through the 1960s is Bob Tronolone in the US. Nice bloke too...


Amen to that! Bob's been very helpful to me on a number of assignments.

A couple of weeks ago, someone on eBay was offering a CD full of Bob's photos, but I didn't get the impression that Bob himself had anything to do with the auction, let alone authorized it. Anyone know more about this?

#25 jonpollak

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Posted 03 November 2004 - 11:37

I kinda like the work of Darren Heath and Rainer S.

However, right here on AtlasF1 there a mighty fine snapper by the name of Andrew Wheeler
View some of his work out here

Jp

#26 WDH74

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Posted 03 November 2004 - 19:37

I admire a lot of the work on Dave Friedman's website. Worth a visit!

JohnS-I quite agree with you. The results that photographers "way back when" got, with fairly primitive gear, is impressive. I can sort of relate to that- until last year, my only camera was an all manual Pentax K-1000 with a 70-210 zoom lens and no flash. Sometimes, when looking at pictures I took on that old camera, I wonder how the heck I did it without an in-built display telling me the aperture, shutter speed, ambient temperature and humidity, and the current score of the Cubs game. Ironically, having upgraded to a fancy all electric bells 'n whistles camera, I use it on full manual mode and rarely use the flash...

-W de H

#27 Paul Parker

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Posted 03 November 2004 - 21:25

The art of motor racing photography has changed but the essential skills remain the same.

Timing, composition and an eye for detail remain constant assuming a certain level of competence. However the physical situation has altered. Up until the early 1970s track access was far easier and photographers were much nearer the action. Even allowing for the inferior camera technology of years ago, the close proximity meant that pictures could be taken with much shorter focal lens length that gave greater depth of field and far more movement rather than the foreshortened 300mm+ images of latter day racing made necessary by modern safety restrictions.

Take a long look at the work of Yves Debraine, Klemantaski, Goddard, Mailander, Rowe, Cahier, Cooper, Alexander and others. They were works of art in photographic form often taken in very difficult or almost impossible conditions. Another factor is that modern photographic paper is not of good enough quality to do full justice to monochromatic images.

#28 harryglorydays

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Posted 04 November 2004 - 22:00

As a former track photog at Sebring and Daytona during the late 60s and early 70s, I would like to put my vote in for two that haven't been mentioned yet:

Bill Warner - He shot for Road & Track and Automobile Year and got some great shots. Plus he's a very nice person.

Tom Burnside - For those of us who learned photography studying Life photo essays, Tom is one of the greatest photographers ever to shoot a race. If you don't have his book "American Racing," you should get it. Go to his site at www.tomburnside.com for some samples. His book is even better than the site. Plus, Denise McCluggage did the copy. I didn't rtealize what a "looker" she was back in the late 50s!

#29 Twin Window

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Posted 04 November 2004 - 22:02

Hello Harry, and welcome to TNF! :wave:

:up:

#30 bill moffat

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Posted 04 November 2004 - 22:51

A further warm welcome Harry. Sebring and Daytona in the 60/70's now that sounds evocative.

How about posting a few images of your work ?

#31 Mark Godfrey

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Posted 04 November 2004 - 22:52

In addition to the accomplished photographers already mentioned, watch for the work of Ralph Poole, Jack Campbell and Bob Canaan who shot California events in the 50s.

I also hope you get an opportunity to see the work of Flip Schulke. Flip photographed racing at Sebring, Le Mans, and Formula One events from about 1959 to the late 60s. But he is far better known for his images of JFK, Martin Luther King Jr., and Muhhamid Ali (and also his pioneering underwater photography).

Flip Schulke captured the action and the personalties at the track, and behind the scenes. I have had the pleasure of working with quality prints from all of these photographers, but I was most fortunate to go through a large volume of Flip’s contact sheets. One of the few books featuring many his racing images is a juvenile fiction title from 1964, “Le Mans: Twice Around the Clock” by Michael Gibson.

#32 theunions

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Posted 04 November 2004 - 22:55

I wish I knew whatever happened to the collective (west coast sports/stock cars, golf, etc.) works of Lester Nehamkin.

#33 Ralliart

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Posted 05 November 2004 - 12:37

Others that come to mind - Gunther Molter, Eddie Guba, Horst Baumann, Jeff Zwart, Joe Rusz, Ron Zuelke, Art Flores, Klaus Richert and Norbert Singer (!)

#34 Ren de Boer

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Posted 05 November 2004 - 12:57

There are several photographers who have made outstanding work (some still do!). I like the work by Austrian photographer Alois Rottensteiner, who used to shoot for Austrian magazine, Autorevue, which, IMHO, still is one of the best European motoring magazines, because they have an approach that is different from all the others. A bit tongue-in-cheek sometimes, definitely worth the read (especially stories by Herbert Völker).

In rallying, I think Reinhard Klein is top of the bill (especially his excellent value-for-money books published by Konemann). And does anyone remember the work by Japanese photographer Tamotsu Futamura in the 1980s? Marvellous shots of the famous Group B cars, real works of art!

#35 harryglorydays

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Posted 05 November 2004 - 13:41

I will try to post some images but I'm going to have to figure it out first! Since you asked, I have just self-published a book on the 1970 Sebring. If you would like to see some sample images, you can go to my web site at: www.glorydaysofracing.com. I hope everyone won't feel this is too commercial. If so. I apologize and will make up by posting some images from this and other races I shot in that time period.

Wonderful forum!

P.S. There's been some talk here about shooting "back then" with old equipment. I recently (2001 and 2002) re-established my relationship as track photog at Sebring and shot it with my old equipment - Nikon F and F2. Two things struck me. First, lugging a F2 with motordrive and a long lens around that circuit is hard work! Of course, I was 35 years younger back then! At least today they have shuttle busses. Back then we had to walk the entire course (5.2 miles around) to get shots at all the corners.

Second, everyone now is shooting digital. While I have hesitated to shoot with a camera that is smarter than I am, I must admit that I am now coming around. I own an advertising agency and work with Photoshop quite a bit. I doubt that I will ever go back in the darkroom. It really is pointless. You have much more control in Photoshop and once the corrections are done, it can be repeated endlessly.

However, in going back into my archives to do the book I realized that film has something that digital may not - archival quality. While some of my images have suffered over the years, I still had the images to work with. It was not too many years ago that the digital standard was Scitec (sp?) and we stored everything on 88mb Syquest discs (huge for the time). Today, I couldn't even open these files since my computers and software don't have the capability. You say, well you just keep moving your TIFF and JPEG files to the newest technology, but that takes time and, of course, many images will be lost.

Another thing I realized in doing this book was that ALL of the images we shoot are important in recording a place and time. When I shot races, I would regularly shoot 10-15 rolls of TriX and 5 rolls or so of Hi-speed Ektachrome. Out of those, perhaps 6 or 10 would be "publication quality," really good shots. But I found that many of the "average" shots also had wonderful information to convey, especially when put into the context of a photo essay.

My point with this is that many digital photographers "delete" their average shots when they take them to free up memory. That may turn out to be unfortunate in the long run. We've got plenty of spectacular racing shots, but it is frequently the incidental shot that really captures the "moment."

Sorry for being so long winded.

#36 Mark Godfrey

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Posted 05 November 2004 - 17:03

Originally posted by theunions
I wish I knew whatever happened to the collective (west coast sports/stock cars, golf, etc.) works of Lester Nehamkin.

Steve Earle has the sports car stuff and may know who has the rest of the work.

#37 Frank S

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Posted 05 November 2004 - 17:45

Lucky me; I found two, maybe three, 8x10 prints of von Neumanns, on eBay.

They are in this album along with some contemporary snapshots by another snapper, and Bob Engberg's shot of a famous/notorius Lotus VIII/IX/X.


--
Frank S

#38 Ralliart

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Posted 06 November 2004 - 15:15

How could I have forgotten Akira Mase and his great work, including his book "Great Drivers"? :blush:

#39 Ray Bell

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Posted 06 November 2004 - 20:46

Originally posted by harryglorydays
I will try to post some images but I'm going to have to figure it out first! Since you asked, I have just self-published a book on the 1970 Sebring. If you would like to see some sample images, you can go to my web site at: www.glorydaysofracing.com. I hope everyone won't feel this is too commercial. If so. I apologize and will make up by posting some images from this and other races I shot in that time period.....


There's a 'sticky' thread at the top of the page that give you one means of posting here that's all too simple...

And this is how you post pics that you have already uploaded to the net (yours, I trust that's okay for this illustration?):

Posted Image

...just click on quote to see how it's done... and welcome to our happy home!

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#40 WDH74

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Posted 07 November 2004 - 00:02

My point with this is that many digital photographers "delete" their average shots when they take them to free up memory. That may turn out to be unfortunate in the long run. We've got plenty of spectacular racing shots, but it is frequently the incidental shot that really captures the "moment."



My sentiments exactly, Harry. I have a point 'n squirt digital camera that I use for stills at races, and I try to not delete anything until I've gotten home and put everything on my computer. (and even then, I've lost images due to futzing with them in Photoshop and not saving the "new" image with a new name). But you can never tell when there's gold in them thar throwaways!

[IMG]http://img108.exs.cx...lionhead.th.jpg[/IMG]


The above picture is one of mine (not digital, but on good old Fuji color film). I can't remember when I took it, except that it was sometime around 1995 or 6, at the BRIC at Road America, and I'm not sure if it actually captures a "moment". It is literally the last shot on a roll of film. I'd spent the last three or four frames trying to take a picture of the Miller badge on the front, with the striped tent and surrounding cars reflected in it. Only one of those turned out, but this "throwaway" film waster is quite nice! Wish I could remember what camera settings I was using that day......


-William

#41 harryglorydays

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Posted 07 November 2004 - 14:56

Wow! Thanks very much. I've been working on selecting some more from that race and others in the 69-71 time period that I shot to share with you. also have some nice shots of the 70 Road Atlanta Can-Am. Many of you will remember that race as being one of the few that McLaren did not win. Both team McLarens went out as did the second-tier teams. Tony Dean in a Porsche 908 won the race!

#42 petefenelon

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Posted 08 November 2004 - 10:56

Originally posted by WDH74


My sentiments exactly, Harry. I have a point 'n squirt digital camera that I use for stills at races, and I try to not delete anything until I've gotten home and put everything on my computer. (and even then, I've lost images due to futzing with them in Photoshop and not saving the "new" image with a new name). But you can never tell when there's gold in them thar throwaways!


Given that CD-Rs cost only a few pence a pop I always burn my pics to one as soon as they come out of the camera. Treat the CD-Rs as 'negatives', don't muck with them and keep them in a safe place.

(Yes, I know they probably don't have the same lifespan as decent film.....)

Then it's time to play with the images, without fear of totally nadgering them. (Anyone upgraded from Elements 2 to Elements 3 yet?;))

#43 harryglorydays

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Posted 08 November 2004 - 15:51

As promised, I will now attempt to post some of my images. If this works, I'll post more.

The most beautiful Ferrari of all time (at least the best prepared!) Sunoco 512, Sebring 1971:



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Pedro Rodriguez, Sebring 1970 (from my book)

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Porsches at Daytona 1969

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If this didn't work, bear with me.

#44 harryglorydays

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Posted 08 November 2004 - 15:56

Well, two out of three ain't bad. Let's try Pedro again:

Posted Image

#45 harryglorydays

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Posted 08 November 2004 - 16:04

Here's one of my favorites: Denny and Teddy at Road Atlanta 1970. Can you imagine being able to get a shot like this today?

Posted Image

#46 klemcoll

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Posted 25 November 2004 - 18:54

Some interesting posts here. Just goes to show that everyone's taste in images is just a little bit different! Being in the archive business, we are complimented that a number of the photographers whose work we represent have been mentioned. Perhaps we are biased, but we continue to believe that Louis Klemantaski's photographs are the pinnacle of this area, at least for the period up to the mid-1960s when the drivers had disappeared inside the cars for good, color had taken over and long lenses were a necessity as photographers were banished from trackside. Louis was really the next step after Lartigue in capturing moving objects, in his case racing cars, although he did the "bouncing bombs" during the war years for the RAF.

Advert: If you wish to see a selection of images by Klemantaski and others - http://www.klemcoll.com/gallery.asp

#47 Seppi_0_917PA

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Posted 18 December 2004 - 14:54

Originally posted by harryglorydays
I have just self-published a book on the 1970 Sebring. www.glorydaysofracing.com.

Congrats on the very favorable review in the Jan 05 Road & Track!

#48 harryglorydays

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Posted 18 December 2004 - 15:14

Originally posted by Seppi_0_917PA
Congrats on the very favorable review in the Jan 05 Road & Track!


Thank you! My knees were shaking when they faxed it over to me! Now if I can just get rid of the 150 cases of the book I have in my basement!

One interesting thing that has happened as a result of this article is the incredible number of phone calls and emails I have received with people telling me about their Sebring experiences. I didn't realize the emotional attachment the average fan had/has with that race. Stories about dragging the wife with two babies in diapers to the race; two people on a Honda motorcycle riding 1200 miles to attend; I even found out how the Webster Turn got its name: there was a company, Webster Irrigation, located there in one of the warehouses. They made irrigation systems for the local orange growers to use in their groves!

P.S. You may want to look at the January issue of MotorSport for some more samples.

#49 maczippy

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Posted 19 December 2004 - 00:18

Originally posted by harryglorydays

My point with this is that many digital photographers "delete" their average shots when they take them to free up memory. That may turn out to be unfortunate in the long run. We've got plenty of spectacular racing shots, but it is frequently the incidental shot that really captures the "moment."


Some good points there Harry,

Typically (and I do this for a living, more horses than motorsport but the theory still applies) I very rarely cull in the field. I have a 60Gig digital wallet that I'll dump a 2Gig CF card to and keep shooting (I carry 4x2Gig cards). Rarely do I actually go through and chimp to remove.

I actually tend to shoot as I would with filum.

So all the culling goes on when I return to base and can see everything before making a decision to delete completely.

I tend to keep more than cull as I never know when it's likely to be useful.

Just thought I'd drop that in there!!

Season Greetings to all!

- Andrew

**Edited to say, I now shoot more motorsports than horses**

#50 Ruairidh

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Posted 19 December 2004 - 01:55

Originally posted by maczippy



Typically (and I do this for a living, more horses than motorsport but the theory still applies) I very rarely cull in the field. I have a 60Gig digital wallet that I'll dump a 2Gig CF card to and keep shooting (I carry 4x2Gig cards). Rarely do I actually go through and chimp to remove.

I actually tend to shoot as I would with filum.

So all the culling goes on when I return to base and can see everything before making a decision to delete completely.


Thats basically what I do too. I just wish I had a fraction of the skill of you guys! :up: