43 replies to this topic

[Nordic]

I watched the program about Lord Lucan last night on channel 4.

During the normal office talk about what was watched last night, one of my staff mentioned there was a possible conection between Graham Hill, his plane at Shoreham airport and lord Lucan leaving the country.

Has anyone come across this before?

[MCS]

Originally posted by Nordic
I watched the program about Lord Lucan last night on channel 4.

During the normal office talk about what was watched last night, one of my staff mentioned there was a possible conection between Graham Hill, his plane at Shoreham airport and lord Lucan leaving the country.

Has anyone come across this before?

Yes, there was a story in a newspaper - forget which one - that basically claimed that they had met at some point. It then went on to mention several other "celebrities" that Lucan had encountered. Almost certainly, rumourmonging...

It was a good programme though, wasn't it?

Thought Lucan's son came across very well. In my opinion he's solved the crime as well...

Mark

[Vitesse2]

Oh yes....

http://forums.atlasf...&threadid=59032

[ian senior]

Originally posted by Nordic
I watched the program about Lord Lucan last night on channel 4.

During the normal office talk about what was watched last night, one of my staff mentioned there was a possible conection between Graham Hill, his plane at Shoreham airport and lord Lucan leaving the country.

Has anyone come across this before?

There was a thread on this some time ago, stared by yours truly. It was simply called "Lord Lucan". Haven't got a clue how to post a link, so just search under that title!

[Nordic]

Thanks for that, never come across the rumour before.

Thought the program was quite good, did lack a bit of balance from Mrs L's side of things.

Pretty sure his son has solved the case, if he put his mind to it maybe he could find Shergar soon.

Had to laugh at the ageing process sim that still had Lucan wearing his bushy tash, I wonder if the police have considered the chance he shaved it off? As it was we thought he looked a bit like Saddam Hussain.

[LOTI]

Graham kept his plane at Elstree and while he would have known John Aspinall, Jackie Stewart introduced Sally [Piers Courage's widow] to John, who she later married so the two sets did know each other I can't say they fraternised.I don't belive Graham was a gambler just very socially aware [as they say!] and I don't believe that if that had been the prefered means of escape they would have used such a high profile person.
I find it extraordinary that the interest goes on, I feel very sorry for the families but think of the thousands of unsolved murders.
Loti

[ghinzani]

Originally posted by MCS




Thought Lucan's son came across very well. In my opinion he's solved the crime as well...

or he was like an Egyptian crocodile... In de Nile!

As to the ageing process shots, surely if he was in a German community in Africa he'd go for an Amish type beard and lose the 'tache?

Good waste of an hour tho, compared to the normal crap terrestrial TV showings

[MCS]

Originally posted by ghinzani


...Good waste of an hour tho, compared to the normal crap terrestrial TV showings...

I couldn't agree more - it's the only programme I've watched all week...

Mark

[Mallory Dan]

Agreed re the prog, much better than the usual rubbish, and I agree Nordic, as soon as I saw the aged picture, I thought Saddam Hussein !!!

Only other thing I've seen this week, were 3 separate progs on Sky re Airline Disasters, very entertaining these I find...

[ghinzani]

I watched the boxing documentary series on bbc2 the week before last, and it was excellent and I have no interest in boxing at all! Didnt see it this week cos the missus was watching Himalaya, but thats finished now so I am definately going to watch the rest of this excellent series - BBC2 Sunday 9pm.

What is this now, TV Quick?

Edited by ghinzani, 05 April 2011 - 02:43.

[D-Type]

I think this is a classic case of adding 1 and 1 to make 3

(A) Graham Hill had an aircraft

(B) In the film Puppet on a chain or Fear is the Key, anyway it was an Alistair McLean one, Graham played a helicopter pilot who flew a villain somewhere

Combine (A) with a half-remembered (B) and ....

[Ruairidh]

As an ex-pat, can someone summarize what Lucan's son's proposed solution to the mystery was? Sorry for being Off Topic

[Tim Murray]

He first put forward his reasons for thinking that his father didn’t do it, which were:

(a) that if Lucan had planned the murder of his wife in advance, he would have used a more sensible weapon than a short length of lead pipe wrapped in tape.

(b) that he would not have chosen the time of around 9-00pm to carry out the crime, knowing that his children would almost certainly still be up and about.

He then suggested that the cash-strapped Lucan might have employed someone to steal valuables from the house so that an insurance claim could be made. In this theory, Lucan would have given the person his house key to get in, and the lead pipe to smash a window as he left, to make it look like an outside job. Lucan would have been waiting outside.

Things would have gone wrong when the nanny appeared on the scene; the thug supposedly would have panicked and bludgeoned her to death, and then attacked Lady Lucan when she came downstairs to investigate. Lucan then would have entered the house (why?), and thus become the first person his wife saw when she came round, so she would have incorrectly assumed it was him wot did it.

[Ruairidh]

Thanks Tim,

[ghinzani]

Originally posted by Tim Murray
Lucan then would have entered the house (why?), and thus become the first person his wife saw when she came round, so she would have incorrectly assumed it was him wot did it.

I think cos he was waiting outside to receive the valuables and wondered what had taken so long.

Standard stuff really.....

I feel sorriest for the family of the nanny, who still have to suffer. Aspinall came out of it as a right tosser, saying he would have protected Lucan. Imagine how that makes the Nannys family feel? If he had any decency he would have fed himself to his Lions. Rather than his keepers....

[JohnS]

Originally posted by MCS
In my opinion he's solved the crime as well...

You're kidding, right?

I watched the programme too, and if ever there was ever an open and shut case it's this one.

In denial does indeed sum it up.

John

[MCS]

Originally posted by JohnS


You're kidding, right?

I watched the programme too, and if ever there was ever an open and shut case it's this one.

In denial does indeed sum it up.

John

Let's see what the new "investigation" throws up.

For probably what little it's worth, I've read the three books about the case and several articles down the years and have never believed Lucan committed the murder.

It's now simply a case of whether or not we can trust the findings of the police...

Mark

[D-Type]

Originally posted by D-Type
I think this is a classic case of adding 1 and 1 to make 3

(A) Graham Hill had an aircraft

(B) In the film Puppet on a chain or Fear is the Key, anyway it was an Alistair McLean one, Graham played a helicopter pilot who flew a villain somewhere

Combine (A) with a half-remembered (B) and ....

The film was Caravan to Valcarres but at least I got the Alistair Maclean bit right

[ensign14]

Originally posted by JohnS

In denial does indeed sum it up.

That's probably where Lucan is now.

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by ensign14
That's probably where Lucan is now.

Unless he's living in a Land Rover in New Zealand.

[rdmotorsport]

It was muted that GH flew his Lordship out of the country at low level possibly to the French coast if this is true or not I suppose it is all academic now.
I remember his Lordships wife being interviewed on the tv and when asked what she thought had happened to her absent hubby she replied he was a gentleman therefore he would have done the honourable thing and fallen on to his sword, now there you have it it is an honour to bludgeon young females to death in and around Mayfair!

Rodney Dodson.

[ysgol2]

Yes, there was a story in a newspaper - forget which one - that basically claimed that they had met at some point. It then went on to mention several other "celebrities" that Lucan had encountered. Almost certainly, rumourmonging...

It was a good programme though, wasn't it?

Thought Lucan's son came across very well. In my opinion he's solved the crime as well...

Mark

I've never bought the apparent explanation why Graham insisted on going to Elstree on that foggy night he died not Luton which was an easy landing. Did he go for the smaller airport because he had an extra person on board he was flying back to sort some business out who then got fried in the crash and has therefore never been seen since ?? Just a thought you understand......

[Zeroninety]

I've never bought the apparent explanation why Graham insisted on going to Elstree on that foggy night he died not Luton which was an easy landing. Did he go for the smaller airport because he had an extra person on board he was flying back to sort some business out who then got fried in the crash and has therefore never been seen since ?? Just a thought you understand......

Hmm...I recall that Graham knew Ian Fleming--perhaps he was "on Her Majesty's Secret Service" that night.

[Bloggsworth]

I met Max Mosley once, that doesn't mean that I ever thrashed him....

[Amphicar]

I met Max Mosley once, that doesn't mean that I ever thrashed him....

And I met Sandie Shaw at my uncle's funeral - but I still wear shoes.

[kayemod]

I met Max Mosley once, that doesn't mean that I ever thrashed him....

Many years ago, in a pub on St George's Road near the Elephant & Castle, I was one of a small group that included Max Mosley, we'd all just left a lecture given by Max on the subject of company law, more specifically the law of contract. Two of our number were a bit short of cash, and it's only in the last year or two that I've understood a possible reason for the strange expression that came over Max's face when someone suggested a whip-round...

[JtP1]

I've never bought the apparent explanation why Graham insisted on going to Elstree on that foggy night he died not Luton which was an easy landing. Did he go for the smaller airport because he had an extra person on board he was flying back to sort some business out who then got fried in the crash and has therefore never been seen since ?? Just a thought you understand......

As shown in the documentary the other night on the haunted fish tank. Hill's plane still retained its US tail number and was thus not registered in the UK. So it would suggest that there was no paper work for the plane and was probably never asked for at Elstree. It would have been highly likely to have been asked for on landing at Luton. So that seems a more than reasonable reason to avoid Luton.

[wenoopy]

It was muted that GH flew his Lordship out of the country at low level possibly to the French coast if this is true or not I suppose it is all academic now.
.....
Rodney Dodson.

It must have been very muted, most of us didn't hear it at all.

Or is that a moot point.

[RCH]

As shown in the documentary the other night on the haunted fish tank. Hill's plane still retained its US tail number and was thus not registered in the UK. So it would suggest that there was no paper work for the plane and was probably never asked for at Elstree. It would have been highly likely to have been asked for on landing at Luton. So that seems a more than reasonable reason to avoid Luton.

But doesn't that presuppose that he couldn't have EVER landed anywhere else but Elstree? I suspect the thought of diverting to Luton never entered his head, Elstree was where he was headed and Elstree was where he was damn well going to land.

[simonlewisbooks]

I recommend everyone with an interest in this subject to check out David Tremayne's excellent book THE LOST GENERATION which includes a great deal of research into the crash and what led up to it.

To summarize - GH had left his car at Elstree and had a dinner engagement that night. Diverting to Luton, which was also further away, meant waiting for a taxi and maybe not getting home in time to change...

Seems that it wasn't out of character for Graham to take a bit of a risk in such situations and not at all uncommon for other racing driver-pilots of the era. I guess this is based on the inherent confidence they all have in their ability to handle any situation that arises, either behind the wheel or in the air.

[RCH]

I was living only 2 or 3 miles from Elstree Aerodrome at the time. It was a foggy night, it was still foggy the next day, I recall the race meeting at Brands Hatch I went to that day was called off because of the fog, adding it must be said to my feelings of gloom that weekend. I suspect the whole of SE England was blanketed in fog that night. Maybe Luton was closed as well? Perhaps any other airfield he could have diverted to was further than his fuel would have taken him? Maybe he saw a landing at familiar Elstee as a safer bet than possibly running out of fuel diverting out of the area. As Simon says he would have had an inherent confidence in his ability to handle the situation.

[kayemod]

Seems that it wasn't out of character for Graham to take a bit of a risk in such situations and not at all uncommon for other racing driver-pilots of the era. I guess this is based on the inherent confidence they all have in their ability to handle any situation that arises, either behind the wheel or in the air.

I flew in Colin Chapman's plane a couple of times, though never with him flying it. Lotus employed a professional pilot at the time, always referred to as "Biggles" by everyone from ACBC downwards, and he said that Chapman was an excellent flier, perfectly safe, though sometimes worryingly casual about pre-flight checks.

[simonlewisbooks]

I flew in Colin Chapman's plane a couple of times, though never with him flying it. Lotus employed a professional pilot at the time, always referred to as "Biggles" by everyone from ACBC downwards, and he said that Chapman was an excellent flier, perfectly safe, though sometimes worryingly casual about pre-flight checks.

ACBC's pilot's licence was later one of the main springboards to the conspiracy theories about his death (or otherwise). The question being how could he have succomed to heart problems when he'd just passed a rigerous medical to renew his jet pilots licence? As we know from James Hunt's death, such things cannot always been detected in advance.

[P.Dron]

ACBC's pilot's licence was later one of the main springboards to the conspiracy theories about his death (or otherwise). The question being how could he have succumbed to heart problems when he'd just passed a rigorous medical to renew his jet pilot's licence? As we know from James Hunt's death, such things cannot always been detected in advance.

On the other hand, Chunky had just dined with John DeLorean and his henchman Roy Nesseth. Perhaps, as Little Bonaparte said in Some Like It Hot, "Something in the cake didn't agree with him."

[DogEarred]

Taking of Elstree Aerodrome (and perhaps some aviator can confirm this) years ago, there was a 'dodgy' way of navigating there. (I think I read this in a flying magazine)

In those days the airfield had no instrument navigational aids. i.e. you had to find your own way there, night or day in all weathers.
But a few miles away, apparently, was a BBC radio transmitter. The frequency it broadcast at was close to the range used by aircraft NDBs (Non-directional Beacon), So you could often dial up that frequency and have you NDB guide you directly to that transmitter while being 'entertained' by the likes of Tony Blackburn.
The NDB indicated when you were overhead the BBC transmitter. From there, the same problem arose in bad weather. How to get to the airfield with limited visibility.....

[JtP1]

Taking of Elstree Aerodrome (and perhaps some aviator can confirm this) years ago, there was a 'dodgy' way of navigating there. (I think I read this in a flying magazine)

In those days the airfield had no instrument navigational aids. i.e. you had to find your own way there, night or day in all weathers.
But a few miles away, apparently, was a BBC radio transmitter. The frequency it broadcast at was close to the range used by aircraft NDBs (Non-directional Beacon), So you could often dial up that frequency and have you NDB guide you directly to that transmitter while being 'entertained' by the likes of Tony Blackburn.
The NDB indicated when you were overhead the BBC transmitter. From there, the same problem arose in bad weather. How to get to the airfield with limited visibility.....

I believe the local low/night visibilty marker was a large commercial glass house.

[BRG]

I was living only 2 or 3 miles from Elstree Aerodrome at the time. It was a foggy night, it was still foggy the next day, I recall the race meeting at Brands Hatch I went to that day was called off because of the fog, adding it must be said to my feelings of gloom that weekend. I suspect the whole of SE England was blanketed in fog that night. Maybe Luton was closed as well? Perhaps any other airfield he could have diverted to was further than his fuel would have taken him? Maybe he saw a landing at familiar Elstee as a safer bet than possibly running out of fuel diverting out of the area. As Simon says he would have had an inherent confidence in his ability to handle the situation.

Well, it was certainly very foggy in the Thames Valley that night. I was due to do the Solent City Rally and by the time I had driven from Kingston to Egham to meet my driver, I was convinced that I didn't want to do the event. We rang the organisers in Southampton and they said it was thick there too, so we scrubbed our entry. So any local airfield is likely to have been as bad, although Luton would have had far better landing aids and lighting than Elstree which is pretty minimal even today

Edited by BRG, 22 March 2011 - 11:13.

[Vitesse2]

One of Aspinall's staff has now broken her silence. No mention of NGH in this clip - and frankly I'd doubt there is any connection - but confimation that both Aspinall and Sir Jammy Fishpaste were involved:

http://www.bbc.co.uk...ngland-17065304

Should make interesting viewing, although only showing on BBC London and BBC South East - those with satellite outside those areas will also be able to see it: Sky 974 or 984, Freesat 950 or 959.

Edited by Vitesse2, 18 February 2012 - 10:16.

[Bloggsworth]

As shown in the documentary the other night on the haunted fish tank. Hill's plane still retained its US tail number and was thus not registered in the UK. So it would suggest that there was no paper work for the plane and was probably never asked for at Elstree. It would have been highly likely to have been asked for on landing at Luton. So that seems a more than reasonable reason to avoid Luton.

Do you suggest that no foreign registered planes can be owned by UK citizens? He probably wanted to land at Elstree because he was familiar with it, it was nearest his home, his car was parked there, he knew "he" could land it...

[RTH]

Well, it was certainly very foggy in the Thames Valley that night. I was due to do the Solent City Rally and by the time I had driven from Kingston to Egham to meet my driver, I was convinced that I didn't want to do the event. We rang the organisers in Southampton and they said it was thick there too, so we scrubbed our entry. So any local airfield is likely to have been as bad, although Luton would have had far better landing aids and lighting than Elstree which is pretty minimal even today

Interesting, we may yet find out what really happened.

[alansart]

One of Aspinall's staff has now broken her silence. No mention of NGH in this clip - and frankly I'd doubt there is any connection - but confimation that both Aspinall and Sir Jammy Fishpaste were involved:

http://www.bbc.co.uk...ngland-17065304

Should make interesting viewing, although only showing on BBC London and BBC South East - those with satellite outside those areas will also be able to see it: Sky 974 or 984, Freesat 950 or 959.

It'll also be available on iPlayer according to this mornings BBC News.

[MCS]

It'll also be available on iPlayer according to this mornings BBC News.

Yes, indeed. Very much looking forward to it.

Inside Out is broadcast on BBC One South East, South and London on Monday, 20 February at 19:30 GMT. It is also available nationwide on the BBC iPlayer for seven days thereafter.

[D-Type]

One of Aspinall's staff has now broken her silence. No mention of NGH in this clip - and frankly I'd doubt there is any connection - but confimation that both Aspinall and Sir Jammy Fishpaste were involved:

http://www.bbc.co.uk...ngland-17065304

Should make interesting viewing, although only showing on BBC London and BBC South East - those with satellite outside those areas will also be able to see it: Sky 974 or 984, Freesat 950 or 959.

I'm sceptical.
To quote "Jill" in that clip -

They would go to Kenya, to the Treetops resort. They would have a little holiday there. As far as they were concerned they were going on a safari-type holiday. They would also then fly internally to Gabon...

(1) Treetops is not a resort. Nobody ever visits there for more than one night - they certainly don't have a holiday there. Although not banned, children were not encouraged to visit.
(2) Gabon is a totally different country from Kenya. Kenya is in East Africa and Gabon in West Africa - the other side of the continent and some 2000 miles away. And as far as I know there are no direct flights and the normal route is/was via Europe.

These seem major inconsistencies. OK it was over 30 years ago and memory is fallible.

On the "No smoke without fire" priciple we can speculate a bit.
Many people confuse Kenya with South Africa. Could "Jill" have meant South Africa?
The "little holiday there" could refer to "Kenya", "Africa" or "South Africa" rather than specifically to Treetops.
Treetops could be a fanciful enhancement arising from confusing booking a holiday in East Africa for someone else (Aspinall) to include a night at Treetops.
"Gabon" could be confused with Gaberone, the capital of Botswana. And some of the rumours that Lord Lucan was in Africa included the wilder parts of southern Africa - South Africa, Namibia, Botswana, Zimbabwe, maybe even Zambia. Botswana would almost be an internal flight from one of those countries, it would be equivalent to a flight from London to France, Germany or Spain using local airlines rather than a full International flight to the USA, South Africa or Australia and to a London-based secretary appear an internal flight.

So, did she book some sort of holiday in South Africa and Botswana for Lucan's children?

But, no matter how much he trusted her, given the delicacy of the situation, would John Aspinall have let "Jill" know their true identity? Surely he would have instructed "Jill" to book a holiday for two children named "Bingham" and not told her they were Lord Lucan's offspring.

I'll have to watch the whole programme before deciding.

Edited by D-Type, 18 February 2012 - 18:15.

[Vitesse2]

An amusing postscript from Roy Greenslade, in the wake of Lucan finally being declared dead, conjuring up thoughts of Private Eye's legendary reporter pissed old hack Lunchtime O'Booze and Evelyn Waugh's William Boot: Lord Lucan: the lucky journalists who got to pursue him around the world